Colts offseason discussion / Ballard Grievances (merge)

[jvan1973]

10 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

True.  But they were players like Nelson and Kelly and I think Smith.  Trading them was going to happen.
 

 I’ve always read here that Irsay thought Wentz was a bad leader.  That’s not what you want from your quarterback. 

If that's all he was basing his opinion on,  then I think that is flawed logic.  

[NewColtsFan]

11 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

If that's all he was basing his opinion on,  then I think that is flawed logic.  

If true, I’d assume there were many other examples for Irsay to base his decision.  But we’re never going to know them.  
 

I remember Wentz’s first game, at home vs the Rams.   Aaron Donald dragged down Wentz in the end zone and rolled over his legs.  Wentz suffered TWO high ankle sprains in one play.  I’ve never heard of that in my life.  But to his credit, Wentz got his ankles taped and didn’t miss any games because of that.   I thought that was good leadership. 
 

But, if I remember correctly, I think Wentz got Covid twice, once late in the season.   I’m sure that didn’t help his cause. 
 

Again, I’m only going on what I’ve read here. 

[DougDew]

12 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

If true, I’d assume there were many other examples for Irsay to base his decision.  But we’re never going to know them.  
 

I remember Wentz’s first game, at home vs the Rams.   Aaron Donald dragged down Wentz in the end zone and rolled over his legs.  Wentz suffered TWO high ankle sprains in one play.  I’ve never heard of that in my life.  But to his credit, Wentz got his ankles taped and didn’t miss any games because of that.   I thought that was good leadership. 
 

But, if I remember correctly, I think Wentz got Covid twice, once late in the season.   I’m sure that didn’t help his cause. 
 

Again, I’m only going on what I’ve read here. 

Nelson, Smith, Kelly, and Leonard never got the shot.  Most of the stars/leaders.  IIRC, Irsay sort of laid the leadership thing on Wentz, in that he didn't whip his team into doing what it took to keep practicing and playing without risk.   Then a lot of players got it during that infamous end of season melt down.  

 

I don't know if any of that leadership criticism was really due to covid, but a lot of things were getting blamed on covid and the attitudes back then so I guess its possible.

 

I said I thought the trade was premature, and Wentz should have been allowed to come back the next season with a better supporting cast of receivers, but the FO pulled the plug on that pretty quickly. 

 

I also thought the move from Wentz to Ryan in about a week was one of Ballard's actual genius maneuvers, but we see how that went.

[NewColtsFan]

12 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Nelson, Smith, Kelly, and Leonard never got the shot.  Most of the stars/leaders.  IIRC, Irsay sort of laid the leadership thing on Wentz, in that he didn't whip his team into doing what it took to keep practicing and playing without risk.   Then a lot of players got it during that infamous end of season melt down.  

 

I don't know if any of that leadership criticism was really due to covid, but a lot of things were getting blamed on covid and the attitudes back then so I guess its possible.

 

I said I thought the trade was premature, and Wentz should have been allowed to come back the next season with a better supporting cast of receivers, but the FO pulled the plug on that pretty quickly. 

 

I also thought the move from Wentz to Ryan in about a week was one of Ballard's actual genius maneuvers, but we see how that went.

Im in the minority on Ryan.  I’m not selling that he was very good.  But I think he got too much blame.  I think the complete meltdown of the offensive line made Ryan's job far more difficult than it needed to be. 
 

I also thought Ballard and Reich gave up on Rivers too soon.  I thought Rivers played really well considering practice was cut way back due to COVID.   He retired the next day after Ballard told him to please give the Colts about two weeks to figure things out.  
 

I get why…. It’s an easy trade off..  a potential long term answer at QB vs a very short term solution.   I’d make the same choice.  It just didn’t feel right the way it played out.  The NFL business side can get pretty ugly pretty quickly. 
 

[GoColts8818]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Stubborn, yes. I think he believes in his process, for better or worse.

 

Arrogant, I don't agree. There have been a couple times when Ballard bristled a little bit, got somewhat defensive, etc. In general, he appears to be collaborative, takes blame when things go wrong, assigns credit when things go right, doesn't air dirty laundry (I think he protected JT more than he should have, for example), gets along well with other people, etc. 

yeah Polian was arrogant.  Ballard seems like a good person that most people like but I would also agree he’s stubborn but I think most NFL coaches and GMs are.  

[Superman]

3 hours ago, stitches said:

I mean... all it took is the best rookie QB year since when? Forever? And just because one player has made the jump doesn't mean another with similar early stats will. In fact, what Nico Collins did is the outlier, not the rule. 

 

Collins isn't the only pass catcher to take a leap after being paired with a more dynamic QB. They're not all perfect comparisons, but when you go from Matt Ryan/Gardner Minshew to someone like Richardson, it makes sense to expect that your receivers will benefit. I don't think we disagree on that; you said earlier that you think Pierce should benefit from Richardson.

 

Quote

My argument was that other teams in similar position to us - cheap young QB who needs support and support can be afforded, were able to give that support to their QB. We on the other hand are relying on our super inexperienced QB to raise the level of our pass-catchers. Can it happen? I guess it can... I just hope in 2 years we are not still wondering what could have been if we gave AR more/better weapons. 

 

Again, everyone agrees that a good QB is a force multiplier, even Ballard, despite him saying 'it's not about one guy.' It's not about one guy, but it's a universally accepted premise that having a dynamic QB makes a big difference. I think picking at this is off the mark.

 

I also think the Colts will add another WR in the draft, but we'll see about that. 

[John Waylon]

5 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Stubborn, yes. I think he believes in his process, for better or worse.

 

Arrogant, I don't agree. There have been a couple times when Ballard bristled a little bit, got somewhat defensive, etc. In general, he appears to be collaborative, takes blame when things go wrong, assigns credit when things go right, doesn't air dirty laundry (I think he protected JT more than he should have, for example), gets along well with other people, etc. 

 

I tend to think this is why Ballard may have gotten some extra leash from Irsay. 
 

Imagine you’re Irsay. For the last 30 years you’ve worked with Polian, Grigson, and Ballard. Ballard has got to be the friendliest and easiest of that group to get along with. To sit just down and talk with on the human level. Polian was too business minded to ever learn to be friendly, and Grigson was as desirable as a shady used car salesman. 
 

Ballard has got to easily be the most likable that Jim has worked with since the Clinton administration. 

[throwing BBZ]

7 hours ago, DougDew said:

In addition to Rice. Taylor, Dwight Clark, Roger Craig in an era when RBs mattered more, Joe Montana still made plays based upon more of his football traits, not so much personal athletic traits.  That's is a distinct difference in entertainment value for me. 

 

But that goes way back before the salary cap, when SF stacked the team.

 

I hope Ballard builds out the roster with talent in the "right" places.  

 

 If he continues with 4.5 corners defending 4.3's WR were done.

It's simple. Pierce, Woods, Cross, Downs, Brents, Ogeltree, Mallory have to play good football. Year two with Steichen and our whole team should be a little better, a little sharper. Another little bump from Dayo and Kwity.

 In the draft give us a shutdown corner, a fast route runner WR, a couple of good safety prospects and this team can make real progress by seasons end.

 Then next off season Ballard can pull the string for that 1- 2 players to go for it. 

[Superman]

3 hours ago, John Waylon said:

 

I tend to think this is why Ballard may have gotten some extra leash from Irsay. 
 

Imagine you’re Irsay. For the last 30 years you’ve worked with Polian, Grigson, and Ballard. Ballard has got to be the friendliest and easiest of that group to get along with. To sit just down and talk with on the human level. Polian was too business minded to ever learn to be friendly, and Grigson was as desirable as a shady used car salesman. 
 

Ballard has got to easily be the most likable that Jim has worked with since the Clinton administration. 

 

It's possible, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's a factor. I agree that Ballard is more likable and easier to get along with than Grigson and late stage Polian for sure. And I think that Ballard's personality and the way he's tried to build relationships with the media has led to some grace from those guys.

 

In general, though, I think Irsay really believes in continuity, like he says. I think Grigson might have stayed longer if he wasn't so difficult to get along with.

[shasta519]

17 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Ironically, I think Nico Collins speaks to the benefit of having good QB play. He wasn't on anyone's radar before 2023 when he was playing with random QBs like Davis Mills and Tyrod Taylor, then Stroud comes along and now he's the anchor of a great WR corps...

 

Random WR 1, first two seasons: 24 games, 126 targets, 70 catches, 927 yards, three TDs

Random WR 2, first two seasons: 33 games, 143, 73 catches, 1,107 yards, four TDs

 

You can guess which is Nico Collins, and which is Alec Pierce. Collins is the argument for giving Pierce some rope as a third year guy who will finally have a QB who can throw down the field. And it illustrates why I don't think saying Richardson can help the WRs produce better is the same as asking Richardson to drag a bad WR corps into the top tier. 

 

To answer your question, I think Pittman vs Diggs is a discussion, because I think Diggs is on the way down and Pittman is a more well rounded X receiver. But please note that I never argued that the Colts have a better pass catcher group than the Texans. I argued that the Colts pass catchers have more potential than you're giving them credit for.

 

Agree with the overall idea about good QBs helping WRs produce.

 

But to Nico's credit, he was flashing in year 2 with Davis Mills at QB, despite groin and foot issues limiting him to only 10 games. He avg'd nearly 48 yds/game, playing 71% of the snaps.

 

Pierce hasn't really dealt with injuries and in year 2, he avg'd 30 yds/game, playing 95% of the snaps with Gardner Minshew.

 

I think AR's arm strength could help Pierce get a few more shots downfield, but I also don't think it's going to suddenly unlock him as a good WR (you didn't say this, but it's something I hear often on Colts Twitter and content).

[shasta519]

16 hours ago, DougDew said:

Nelson, Smith, Kelly, and Leonard never got the shot.  Most of the stars/leaders.  IIRC, Irsay sort of laid the leadership thing on Wentz, in that he didn't whip his team into doing what it took to keep practicing and playing without risk.   Then a lot of players got it during that infamous end of season melt down.  

 

I don't know if any of that leadership criticism was really due to covid, but a lot of things were getting blamed on covid and the attitudes back then so I guess its possible.

 

I said I thought the trade was premature, and Wentz should have been allowed to come back the next season with a better supporting cast of receivers, but the FO pulled the plug on that pretty quickly. 

 

I also thought the move from Wentz to Ryan in about a week was one of Ballard's actual genius maneuvers, but we see how that went.

 

Ballard said, even if they had made the playoffs, there would have been discussions about moving on from Wentz. Moving on from him was def the right move organizationally, but I didn't care for how it was done. That part wasn't on Ballard though...that was on Irsay and the media.

[RollerColt]

19 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

Ballard said, even if they had made the playoffs, there would have been discussions about moving on from Wentz. Moving on from him was def the right move organizationally, but I didn't care for how it was done. That part wasn't on Ballard though...that was on Irsay and the media.

Irsay seemed to have had his mind made up about Wentz at some point in that season, so yeah I can see this being the case. 

 

Boy it would've been super unpopular though had we made the playoffs and then dumped off Wentz. 

[Shive]

39 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

Pierce hasn't really dealt with injuries and in year 2, he avg'd 30 yds/game, playing 95% of the snaps with Gardner Minshew.

 

I think AR's arm strength could help Pierce get a few more shots downfield, but I also don't think it's going to suddenly unlock him as a good WR (you didn't say this, but it's something I hear often on Colts Twitter and content).

I think that notion is due to how often Pierce got open deep and Minshew either didn't see him or knew he couldn't get the ball to him. I think teams may adjust how they play us with AR at QB and respect the deep ball a bit more, but I still expect Pierce to take a step forward production-wise this next season.

[Superman]

3 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Agree with the overall idea about good QBs helping WRs produce.

 

But to Nico's credit, he was flashing in year 2 with Davis Mills at QB, despite groin and foot issues limiting him to only 10 games. He avg'd nearly 48 yds/game, playing 71% of the snaps.

 

Pierce hasn't really dealt with injuries and in year 2, he avg'd 30 yds/game, playing 95% of the snaps with Gardner Minshew.

 

I think AR's arm strength could help Pierce get a few more shots downfield, but I also don't think it's going to suddenly unlock him as a good WR (you didn't say this, but it's something I hear often on Colts Twitter and content).

 

I think there's more to Pierce than we've seen. I think that's somewhat true of all of our pass catchers, honestly. But I definitely think we need to add a dynamic receiver.

 

I'm not trying to sell Nico short. Just saying he's a good example of the difference a playmaking QB can make.

[Superman]

@stitches How much weight do you put into stuff like this?

 

 

[stitches]

Just now, Superman said:

@stitches How much weight do you put into stuff like this?

 

 

Oh yah, I saw that one at the time(not sure if it was you that brought it up at the time or someone else. I found it interesting IF they actually put weight on it(the match between Funchess and Luck strengths). It probably played at least some part in it... 

[NewColtsFan]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

@stitches How much weight do you put into stuff like this?

 

 

FWIW:  This story is true.  When the Colts signed Funchess,  East ranted for weeks about how Funchess had a very high percentage of drops.   Then, eventually Ballard gave his FA interview and was asked about it.   He commented that (A) Frank said he wasn’t worried about drops and (B) the Colts did their own homework and learned that on the two routs Luck liked most, Funchess had ZERO drops in his career.   That sealed the deal for the Colts.  
 

I only remember this because it was the subject for one of my many ongoing battles with East for years.  

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

FWIW:  This story is true.  When the Colts signed Funchess,  East ranted for weeks about how Funchess had a very high percentage of drops.   Then, eventually Ballard gave his FA interview and was asked about it.   He commented that (A) Frank said he wasn’t worried about drops and (B) the Colts did their own homework and learned that on the two routs Luck liked most, Funchess had ZERO drops in his career.   That sealed the deal for the Colts.  
 

I only remember this because it was the subject for one of my many ongoing battles with East for years.  

 

I remember. I wasn't a huge fan of the Funchess signing/price, but that graphic and Ballard's comments were encouraging. We never got to see how that would have worked out.

 

I don't think we have meaningful data like that for Richardson yet. I doubt that his college tape would offer enough insight, and his sample size from 2023 is too small. 

[ADnum1]

19 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Im in the minority on Ryan.  I’m not selling that he was very good.  But I think he got too much blame.  I think the complete meltdown of the offensive line made Ryan's job far more difficult than it needed to be. 
 

I also thought Ballard and Reich gave up on Rivers too soon.  I thought Rivers played really well considering practice was cut way back due to COVID.   He retired the next day after Ballard told him to please give the Colts about two weeks to figure things out.  
 

I get why…. It’s an easy trade off..  a potential long term answer at QB vs a very short term solution.   I’d make the same choice.  It just didn’t feel right the way it played out.  The NFL business side can get pretty ugly pretty quickly. 
 

There is no doubt in my mind that Ballard was stringing Rivers along all the while he was negotiating with Philly for the Wentz trade.

 

Had Ballard committed right away, Rivers would have stayed

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 hours ago, RollerColt said:

Irsay seemed to have had his mind made up about Wentz at some point in that season, so yeah I can see this being the case. 

 

Boy it would've been super unpopular though had we made the playoffs and then dumped off Wentz. 

Something went horribly wrong after we were 9-6 in 2021. We went from a team that many feared because of our defense and running game, to a team that folded badly in the last 2 games. Wentz was even playing above average when we were 9-6. ESPN and the NFL Network were saying that we were a team that nobody wanted to face in the playoffs. What went wrong, is anyone's guess but it was perhaps the oddest collapse I have seen ever for a Colts team.

 

The Colts collapsing like they did is the oddest thing in my Colts fandom that I may have ever witnessed considering we lost to 2 teams = Raiders and at Jags to finish the season that we were clearly better than.

[NewColtsFan]

13 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Something went horribly wrong after we were 9-6 in 2021. We went from a team that many feared because of our defense and running game, to a team that folded badly in the last 2 games. Wentz was even playing above average when we were 9-6. ESPN and the NFL Network were saying that we were a team that nobody wanted to face in the playoffs. What went wrong, is anyone's guess but it was perhaps the oddest collapse I have seen ever for a Colts team.

 

The Colts collapsing like they did is the oddest thing in my Colts fandom that I may have ever witnessed considering we lost to 2 teams = Raiders and at Jags to finish the season that we were clearly better than.

I’ve always thought went wrong was Covid.  A good number of key top players got it.  Right around that time the NFL changed the ruling of how long you had to sit out from 10 (or 7) days to 5.   That meant you could declare you had Covid on a Monday and still play on the up coming Sunday.  The guys played, but I don’t think they were up to snuff.   

 

Nobody wants to say so publicly because it looks like an excuse for getting beat two weeks in a row.   But in the absence of anything substantive, to me it seems the most reasonable and logical. 

[shasta519]

6 hours ago, RollerColt said:

Irsay seemed to have had his mind made up about Wentz at some point in that season, so yeah I can see this being the case. 

 

Boy it would've been super unpopular though had we made the playoffs and then dumped off Wentz. 

Yeah, would have been interesting to see how they maneuvered that. I could see it…if they got embarrassed on WC weekend.

 

But if they made playoffs and then had a good game in the WC round (but still lost), hard to see how they could do it. No chance they cut ties if Wentz's wins a playoff game, right? Like, how could you spin that. 
 

That was the weak QB class too, so it’s not like they could have drafted somebody to push him out. 

[shasta519]

4 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

FWIW:  This story is true.  When the Colts signed Funchess,  East ranted for weeks about how Funchess had a very high percentage of drops.   Then, eventually Ballard gave his FA interview and was asked about it.   He commented that (A) Frank said he wasn’t worried about drops and (B) the Colts did their own homework and learned that on the two routs Luck liked most, Funchess had ZERO drops in his career.   That sealed the deal for the Colts.  
 

I only remember this because it was the subject for one of my many ongoing battles with East for years.  

I did my own fair share of ranting. I believe I called him a bum. But only because I watched a lot of CAR games back then (bro in law is a Panthers fan). 
 

He got hurt, so we will never know what would have happened, but I think he was out of the league like a year later. There’s just not really a place for Funchess-type WRs anymore. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

I’ve always thought went wrong was Covid.  A good number of key top players got it.  Right around that time the NFL changed the ruling of how long you had to sit out from 10 (or 7) days to 5.   That meant you could declare you had Covid on a Monday and still play on the up coming Sunday.  The guys played, but I don’t think they were up to snuff.   

 

Nobody wants to say so publicly because it looks like an excuse for getting beat two weeks in a row.   But in the absence of anything substantive, to me it seems the most reasonable and logical. 

 

I think that's simplifying it too much. The same team started out 0-3. There were problems all season, and the only time things looked good was when the run game was on fire.

 

The next season, without Covid as a factor, the team pumped up the importance of starting strong. They acknowledged the streak of losing the opener, they acknowledged the streak of losing in Jacksonville. Everyone stared it right in the face and said how important it was to change those two things in the first two games of the season. The team sleepwalked through the first three quarters of the opener, eventually limping to a tie against one of the worst teams in the league. And the next week they got shut out in Jacksonville. 

 

Ballard always talked about not flinching. Reich always talked about being mentally tough and finishing strong. IMO, the end of 2021 and the beginning of 2022 showed that the team had a severe lack of heart, and deficient leadership. It seemed like that was all laid on the shoulders of Wentz and Reich, which I think was a good place to start, but they were not the only problems. The Covid situation was a part of it, but I think what happened at the end of 2021 was a symptom of deeper issues.

[jvan1973]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I’ve always thought went wrong was Covid.  A good number of key top players got it.  Right around that time the NFL changed the ruling of how long you had to sit out from 10 (or 7) days to 5.   That meant you could declare you had Covid on a Monday and still play on the up coming Sunday.  The guys played, but I don’t think they were up to snuff.   

 

Nobody wants to say so publicly because it looks like an excuse for getting beat two weeks in a row.   But in the absence of anything substantive, to me it seems the most reasonable and logical. 

Yeah that was obviously a terrible policy.  The NFL approach to covid has been proven to be too hard handed.  Lord knows what might have happened if they could have been able to practice.   

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I think that's simplifying it too much. The same team started out 0-3. There were problems all season, and the only time things looked good was when the run game was on fire.

 

The next season, without Covid as a factor, the team pumped up the importance of starting strong. They acknowledged the streak of losing the opener, they acknowledged the streak of losing in Jacksonville. Everyone stared it right in the face and said how important it was to change those two things in the first two games of the season. The team sleepwalked through the first three quarters of the opener, eventually limping to a tie against one of the worst teams in the league. And the next week they got shut out in Jacksonville. 

 

Ballard always talked about not flinching. Reich always talked about being mentally tough and finishing strong. IMO, the end of 2021 and the beginning of 2022 showed that the team had a severe lack of heart, and deficient leadership. It seemed like that was all laid on the shoulders of Wentz and Reich, which I think was a good place to start, but they were not the only problems. The Covid situation was a part of it, but I think what happened at the end of 2021 was a symptom of deeper issues.

This is a very interesting response.  
 

Earlier today, you had a fun post where you asked a poster if he was aware he had hit every cliche known to mankind.   (It was a fun moment.)  In my post to you, I’d point to the end of your last sentence “a symptom of deeper issues.”  
 

I’d simply say to you, what does that mean?   Because I think it’s the kind of phrase you don’t often write, because it’s so open ended.  It could mean something different to everyone who reads your post and that’s not like you.   To me, it implies character.   But with the premium Ballard emphasizes on character, I’d seriously doubt it.   It could also mean there were issues with the OL Coach the Colts had then.  He got let go after the disastrous 2022 season.  (By the way, the former Colts OL coach joined Houston last year.)
 

So I’m asking….  Can you elaborate on what you were trying to say?   Can you clarify?   I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, or force your hand.  Only trying to understand better. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I’ve always thought went wrong was Covid.  A good number of key top players got it.  Right around that time the NFL changed the ruling of how long you had to sit out from 10 (or 7) days to 5.   That meant you could declare you had Covid on a Monday and still play on the up coming Sunday.  The guys played, but I don’t think they were up to snuff.   

 

Nobody wants to say so publicly because it looks like an excuse for getting beat two weeks in a row.   But in the absence of anything substantive, to me it seems the most reasonable and logical. 

Your theory makes sense because I have always thought that Wentz may have rubbed Irsay the wrong way toward the end of the season. We were a team that season that some could say we were inconsistent. Having said that, we had no business losing to 2-14 Jacksonville.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

This is a very interesting response.  
 

Earlier today, you had a fun post where you asked a poster if he was aware he had hit every cliche known to mankind.   (It was a fun moment.)  In my post to you, I’d point to the end of your last sentence “a symptom of deeper issues.”  
 

I’d simply say to you, what does that mean?   Because I think it’s the kind of phrase you don’t often write, because it’s so open ended.  It could mean something different to everyone who reads your post and that’s not like you.   To me, it implies character.   But with the premium Ballard emphasizes on character, I’d seriously doubt it.   It could also mean there were issues with the OL Coach the Colts had then.  He got let go after the disastrous 2022 season.  (By the way, the former Colts OL coach joined Houston last year.)
 

So I’m asking….  Can you elaborate on what you were trying to say?   Can you clarify?   I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, or force your hand.  Only trying to understand better. 

 

To clarify from that "cliche" post, that poster said everything that people say about white DBs and WRs, and I wasn't sure if he was doing it on purpose or not. Probably not, which is fascinating to me.

 

On topic, as a disclaimer, please note that these are my thoughts only, just my perspective.

 

I think Frank Reich didn't do a good job setting standards and holding people accountable. I think he actively avoided confrontation with his best players. I think this was probably most obvious with Carson Wentz in 2021, especially toward the end of the year when it seemed obvious that Wentz's play wasn't reliable.

 

I also think there's a connection to be made with the Covid/vaccine stuff, but I don't want to go down that road. 

 

Ultimately, I think the team was soft, especially mentally. It's probably unfair to blame that entirely on Reich and Wentz, but I think they were a big part of it. And between the end of 2021 and the beginning of 2022, I think a lot of that came to a head, and the result was an underperforming team that was shrinking in the biggest moments.

 

I think Irsay hit the nail on the head when he said fear and doubt had crept into the building. And rather than sitting back and watching, Irsay turned up the heat. He was texting players about how important it was to win the opener. He extended Ballard and Reich, but called them in for tough meetings after the 2021 season, and early in 2022. While I don't like how he handled the Reich/Saturday stuff, I think he recognized that it was necessary to shake things up, and to a certain extent he brought Saturday in to sniff some things out. It wasn't the best process, but I think he meant to burn out whatever fear and doubt he sensed in the operation. And after the dust cleared, it was pretty obvious to me how Irsay felt about things.

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

To clarify from that "cliche" post, that poster said everything that people say about white DBs and WRs, and I wasn't sure if he was doing it on purpose or not. Probably not, which is fascinating to me.

 

On topic, as a disclaimer, please note that these are my thoughts only, just my perspective.

 

I think Frank Reich didn't do a good job setting standards and holding people accountable. I think he actively avoided confrontation with his best players. I think this was probably most obvious with Carson Wentz in 2021, especially toward the end of the year when it seemed obvious that Wentz's play wasn't reliable.

 

I also think there's a connection to be made with the Covid/vaccine stuff, but I don't want to go down that road. 

 

Ultimately, I think the team was soft, especially mentally. It's probably unfair to blame that entirely on Reich and Wentz, but I think they were a big part of it. And between the end of 2021 and the beginning of 2022, I think a lot of that came to a head, and the result was an underperforming team that was shrinking in the biggest moments.

 

I think Irsay hit the nail on the head when he said fear and doubt had crept into the building. And rather than sitting back and watching, Irsay turned up the heat. He was texting players about how important it was to win the opener. He extended Ballard and Reich, but called them in for tough meetings after the 2021 season, and early in 2022. While I don't like how he handled the Reich/Saturday stuff, I think he recognized that it was necessary to shake things up, and to a certain extent he brought Saturday in to sniff some things out. It wasn't the best process, but I think he meant to burn out whatever fear and doubt he sensed in the operation. And after the dust cleared, it was pretty obvious to me how Irsay felt about things.

Glad I asked you to explain yourself.   This is a very good 30,000 foot view post, just what I was hoping for.  You refreshed my memory of things that were said and done that perhaps I didn’t think much of at the time (fear and doubt) but now with a few years passed they make more sense with a longer view of Colts history.   More pieces of the puzzle reveal a clearer picture.  
 

Thanks again. 
 

       

[throwing BBZ]

9 hours ago, Superman said:

 

To clarify from that "cliche" post, that poster said everything that people say about white DBs and WRs, and I wasn't sure if he was doing it on purpose or not. Probably not, which is fascinating to me.

 

On topic, as a disclaimer, please note that these are my thoughts only, just my perspective.

 

I think Frank Reich didn't do a good job setting standards and holding people accountable. I think he actively avoided confrontation with his best players. I think this was probably most obvious with Carson Wentz in 2021, especially toward the end of the year when it seemed obvious that Wentz's play wasn't reliable.

 

I also think there's a connection to be made with the Covid/vaccine stuff, but I don't want to go down that road. 

 

Ultimately, I think the team was soft, especially mentally. It's probably unfair to blame that entirely on Reich and Wentz, but I think they were a big part of it. And between the end of 2021 and the beginning of 2022, I think a lot of that came to a head, and the result was an underperforming team that was shrinking in the biggest moments.

 

I think Irsay hit the nail on the head when he said fear and doubt had crept into the building. And rather than sitting back and watching, Irsay turned up the heat. He was texting players about how important it was to win the opener. He extended Ballard and Reich, but called them in for tough meetings after the 2021 season, and early in 2022. While I don't like how he handled the Reich/Saturday stuff, I think he recognized that it was necessary to shake things up, and to a certain extent he brought Saturday in to sniff some things out. It wasn't the best process, but I think he meant to burn out whatever fear and doubt he sensed in the operation. And after the dust cleared, it was pretty obvious to me how Irsay felt about things.

 

 Irsay on the tarmac made it clear that this shall not stand. 

He attacked the problem with positively and unbridled enthusiasm, unfortunately Preacher Frank's message fell flat with his congregation.

 I give Irsay an A+ for having the clarity to fire Frank when he did and replacing him with Saturday. Saturday's leadership and enthusiasm are off the charts and the players knew that he was Irsays eyes. Nothing Irsay could have done would have been more motivating.

 Win or lose going forward today, look at the success rate on how many from that fall remain the core of our hopes to win.

 Thank goodness for Tepper hiring Frank and taking on that salary, and there was fairy dust in the air the day Steichen walked through our door.

 We have an Irsay daughter invested in the front office and one wearing a headset on the sideline. Enthusiastically keeping an eye on things.

[shasta519]

18 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I think that's simplifying it too much. The same team started out 0-3. There were problems all season, and the only time things looked good was when the run game was on fire.

 

The next season, without Covid as a factor, the team pumped up the importance of starting strong. They acknowledged the streak of losing the opener, they acknowledged the streak of losing in Jacksonville. Everyone stared it right in the face and said how important it was to change those two things in the first two games of the season. The team sleepwalked through the first three quarters of the opener, eventually limping to a tie against one of the worst teams in the league. And the next week they got shut out in Jacksonville. 

 

Ballard always talked about not flinching. Reich always talked about being mentally tough and finishing strong. IMO, the end of 2021 and the beginning of 2022 showed that the team had a severe lack of heart, and deficient leadership. It seemed like that was all laid on the shoulders of Wentz and Reich, which I think was a good place to start, but they were not the only problems. The Covid situation was a part of it, but I think what happened at the end of 2021 was a symptom of deeper issues.

 

Yep. Teams don't just collectively lie down like they did at the end of the 2021 season.

 

And we can't really blame COVID because it carried over into the following season, even after they supposedly addressed the leadership issues by removing Wentz and bringing in Ryan (a point they beat to death all offseason). And I would argue it was worse in 2022 than 2021.

 

And then later, even after they removed Reich, Foles was lying on the ground with a concussion (after they let TWO guys have a free shot at him), and Thibodeaux was doing snow angels for 10 secs, not one Colts player showed any heart. Maybe they were just playing out the string, but that was pitiful.

 

I love Steichen as an offensive playcaller, but I am sort of skeptical that all of these issues just suddenly vanished. While last season was much more fun than 2022, the team still showed a tendency to sleep-walk through games. 

 

 

[Superman]

9 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

Yep. Teams don't just collectively lie down like they did at the end of the 2021 season.

 

And we can't really blame COVID because it carried over into the following season, even after they supposedly addressed the leadership issues by removing Wentz and bringing in Ryan (a point they beat to death all offseason). And I would argue it was worse in 2022 than 2021.

 

And then later, even after they removed Reich, Foles was lying on the ground with a concussion (after they let TWO guys have a free shot at him), and Thibodeaux was doing snow angels for 10 secs, not one Colts player showed any heart. Maybe they were just playing out the string, but that was pitiful.

 

I love Steichen as an offensive playcaller, but I am sort of skeptical that all of these issues just suddenly vanished. While last season was much more fun than 2022, the team still showed a tendency to sleep-walk through games. 

 

Even in a vacuum, the Foles thing was bad. If you see it as part of a pattern, it's 100x worse. 

 

I don't think the issues vanished suddenly. I believe that good leadership has to develop organically, not just because a new person is installed. However, we saw some accountability as soon as Saturday arrived. And more of it with Steichen. But what would be best would be players meeting the high standard, and holding one another to the same high standard. 

 

I don't know if I connect this to the poor performances in 2023. We had a limited QB, a roster with some holes, and an uninspiring DC. And unlike 2021 when the team didn't bother to show up for a make-or-break season finale, last year they finished with some passion and heart, and lost on a poorly executed play late in the 4th quarter. It would be good to see some leaders step up -- I think Franklin has been saying the right stuff -- but I think there's been a noticeable shift from the Reich days. Ultimately, you have to win some meaningful games and have a measure of success for any of this to matter. 

[csmopar]

On 4/8/2024 at 5:02 PM, DougDew said:

Nelson, Smith, Kelly, and Leonard never got the shot.  Most of the stars/leaders.  IIRC, Irsay sort of laid the leadership thing on Wentz, in that he didn't whip his team into doing what it took to keep practicing and playing without risk.   Then a lot of players got it during that infamous end of season melt down.  

 

I don't know if any of that leadership criticism was really due to covid, but a lot of things were getting blamed on covid and the attitudes back then so I guess its possible.

 

I said I thought the trade was premature, and Wentz should have been allowed to come back the next season with a better supporting cast of receivers, but the FO pulled the plug on that pretty quickly. 

 

I also thought the move from Wentz to Ryan in about a week was one of Ballard's actual genius maneuvers, but we see how that went.

If that was the case, Wentz wouldn’t have flamed out again for the Commanders. No, Wentz had one good year early in his career and was over rated and over paid since. 

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, csmopar said:

If that was the case, Wentz wouldn’t have flamed out again for the Commanders. No, Wentz had one good year early in his career and was over rated and over paid since. 

He actually had a good year with us.  Late season implosion was a team effort.  Imagine if had a real WR opposite Pittman to go to, and a TE that could actually threaten the seam.  Needed to throw dump offs though.

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

He actually had a good year with us.  Late season implosion was a team effort.  Imagine if had a real WR opposite Pittman to go to, and a TE that could actually threaten the seam.  Needed to throw dump offs though.

The oline the last 2 games played as poorly as I've ever seen

[RollerColt]

55 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

The oline the last 2 games played as poorly as I've ever seen

And then they carried that negative momentum into 2022…

[1959Colts]

No homecoming for Rock Ya Sin

 

[GoColts8818]

43 minutes ago, 1959Colts said:

No homecoming for Rock Ya Sin

 

If it didn’t happen last year I didn’t think it would happen this year.

[smittywerb]

On 4/10/2024 at 2:28 PM, DougDew said:

He actually had a good year with us.  Late season implosion was a team effort.  Imagine if had a real WR opposite Pittman to go to, and a TE that could actually threaten the seam.  Needed to throw dump offs though.

I’d say it was a mixed year.  Remember, we were losing games because wentz kept checking out of run plays and he’d throw the ball +30 times and JT would only have 10 touches averaging 5 yards per.  It wasn’t until we started handing the ball off more that we hit our stride.  Wentz was playing well during the stride but then it was the last 2 games and teams started selling out on the run and forced us to throw.  That’s how I remembered that season. 
 

so personally, I wouldn’t say it was good, it was average.  Yeah, you look at his TD/INT and think he was playing some really good ball, but when you watched the games it was different.  

[Superman]

2 hours ago, smittywerb said:

I’d say it was a mixed year.  Remember, we were losing games because wentz kept checking out of run plays and he’d throw the ball +30 times and JT would only have 10 touches averaging 5 yards per.  It wasn’t until we started handing the ball off more that we hit our stride.  Wentz was playing well during the stride but then it was the last 2 games and teams started selling out on the run and forced us to throw.  That’s how I remembered that season. 
 

so personally, I wouldn’t say it was good, it was average.  Yeah, you look at his TD/INT and think he was playing some really good ball, but when you watched the games it was different.  

 

I've said before, the inconsistency from play to play is something I wasn't prepared for. I watched some of his games with the Eagles before we made the trade, but watching him every week, running the offense for my team, it's a different story. I couldn't appreciate the impact of his wild swings from good to bad and back again when I wasn't emotionally invested in the outcome of every drop back. His decision making was downright reckless at times.