Colts offseason discussion / Ballard Grievances (merge)

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, smittywerb said:

I’d say it was a mixed year.  Remember, we were losing games because wentz kept checking out of run plays and he’d throw the ball +30 times and JT would only have 10 touches averaging 5 yards per.  It wasn’t until we started handing the ball off more that we hit our stride.  Wentz was playing well during the stride but then it was the last 2 games and teams started selling out on the run and forced us to throw.  That’s how I remembered that season. 
 

so personally, I wouldn’t say it was good, it was average.  Yeah, you look at his TD/INT and think he was playing some really good ball, but when you watched the games it was different.  

It looked to me like defenses figured out that they could stack the box against JT and take Pittman away via coverage. 

 

And neither Paschal, Doyle, Mo-Allie, or whomever we had in the slot could do anything about it. 

 

Wentz, and any QB, would have been toast under that situation, and the Oline would get aggressively attacked by the defense as well.

 

Compare Paschal, Doyle, Cox, and the ? slot back then to what we have now and still want to obtain.

[stitches]

13 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I've said before, the inconsistency from play to play is something I wasn't prepared for. I watched some of his games with the Eagles before we made the trade, but watching him every week, running the offense for my team, it's a different story. I couldn't appreciate the impact of his wild swings from good to bad and back again when I wasn't emotionally invested in the outcome of every drop back. His decision making was downright reckless at times.

Watching Wentz play was one of the most frustrating experiences I've ever had. He wasn't the worst QB we've seen with the Colts, but he definitely was the most enraging to watch. Part of it was because he had some highs and you can actually see a glimpse of a world where he's a good QB. But his inconsistency and his wild plays were something else...(there was some absurd stat about left handed passes with him I can't remember)... 

 

Edit:

 

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, stitches said:

Watching Wentz play was one of the most frustrating experiences I've ever had. He wasn't the worst QB we've seen with the Colts, but he definitely was the most enraging to watch. Part of it was because he had some highs and you can actually see a glimpse of a world where he's a good QB. But his inconsistency and his wild plays were something else...(there was some absurd stat about left handed passes with him I can't remember)... 

 

Edit:

 

 

Why would you do this??

[stitches]

7 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Why would you do this??

Sorry 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Everyone has been talking about Wentz and Minshew and Luck threads still get created. Here is my break down as a fan than has seen it all here in INDY since 1984:

 

My Top 3 most puzzling/disappointing seasons in Indy Colts history

3. 2021 makes this list, it still baffles me to this day how we lost to the Raiders and Jags to end the season. Wentz was fool's gold.

 

2. 2005 - the loss to Pitt in the Divisional Round stings still today. We had the best team all season.

 

1. 2009 - gave up on the undefeated Regular Season and they gave away the SB to the Saints.

 

My Top 3 most surprising/fun seasons in Indy Colts history

3. 2023 makes this last, last season was fun to me. Kept us on our toes and we were 1 play away from winning the division.

 

2. 2012 - Luck's rookie season and the comeback wins, no need to explain coming off 2-14 to 11-5 and making the playoffs.

 

1. 1995 - Harbaugh magic baby! That was a great season out of nowhere. 1 play away from winning the AFC.

 

Greatest team we have ever had = 2006. We won the SB and beat Ray Lewis/Ed Reed's Ravens and Tom Brady/BBs Patriots, + took out the Bears who many love here in Indianapolis. 

 

 

[Superman]

3 minutes ago, stitches said:

Sorry 

 

I watched the first two, and I can't take anymore.

 

The one against the Rams was run as designed, those shovel passes are often thrown with the left hand. He probably could have recognized that Doyle wasn't going to get there and just thrown it away, but that wasn't totally his fault. 

 

The one against the Titans is inexplicable. Not a great play call, and the execution up front was terrible... but again, just throw the ball away, put it in the dirt and live to fight another day. There's just no way to get comfortable with that kind of QB play.

 

And I don't think that video shows all of his left handed passes. From memory, I think there were 15 of them that season.

[stitches]

43 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I watched the first two, and I can't take anymore.

 

The one against the Rams was run as designed, those shovel passes are often thrown with the left hand. He probably could have recognized that Doyle wasn't going to get there and just thrown it away, but that wasn't totally his fault. 

 

The one against the Titans is inexplicable. Not a great play call, and the execution up front was terrible... but again, just throw the ball away, put it in the dirt and live to fight another day. There's just no way to get comfortable with that kind of QB play.

 

And I don't think that video shows all of his left handed passes. From memory, I think there were 15 of them that season.

Yep according to various tweets he indeed had 15 left handed passes that season. Insane! Want to see Frank's attitude about it:

 

 

 

[Superman]

52 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yep according to various tweets he indeed had 15 left handed passes that season. Insane! Want to see Frank's attitude about it:

 

 

Yeah, I don't like this at all. I don't care about him taking the heat at the podium, I care about him getting coached and then responding. I understand not wanting to shatter the confidence of your starting QB, especially when his ego seems fragile to begin with. But it's okay -- necessary, even -- for your QB to know that if he's reckless and unpredictable, he won't stay on the field. 

[CoachLite]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, I don't like this at all. I don't care about him taking the heat at the podium, I care about him getting coached and then responding. I understand not wanting to shatter the confidence of your starting QB, especially when his ego seems fragile to begin with. But it's okay -- necessary, even -- for your QB to know that if he's reckless and unpredictable, he won't stay on the field. 

The game is bigger than any one player - and that includes the quarterback.

[smittywerb]

On 4/12/2024 at 11:57 AM, DougDew said:

It looked to me like defenses figured out that they could stack the box against JT and take Pittman away via coverage. 

 

And neither Paschal, Doyle, Mo-Allie, or whomever we had in the slot could do anything about it. 

 

Wentz, and any QB, would have been toast under that situation, and the Oline would get aggressively attacked by the defense as well.

 

Compare Paschal, Doyle, Cox, and the ? slot back then to what we have now and still want to obtain.

 

meh.  I agree, but in the same breath it seemed to work earlier in the year when wentz would throw for +30 times a game.   I actually remember getting into debates on here when that would happen.  People would say wentz played great and I would counter with saying the offense wasn’t balanced and people thought I was crazy. 
 

meh, that’s why I say it was mixed.  Some good, some bad.  

[John Hammonds]

I know, this is really weird.  My contributing to a thread that I've already complained about twice.

But -- I'm an analyst by trade.  And I was looking at a really peculiar thing.  Chris Ballard did an incredible turnabout this year, when it comes to free agents.  Not saying it's good.  Or that it's better.  But that it's DIFFERENT.  Very Different.

Here's some compiled yearly Free Agent stats from Sportrac:

 

2020

Free agents signed from other teams:  8 agents for $34.5mm / $4.3mm per year / highest: QB Rivers $25mm 1 yr

Free agents to other teams:  10 agents for $26.2mm / $2.4mm per year / highest: TE Ebron $12mm 1 yr / 1 of 10 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  2 agents for $2.0mm / $1.0mm per year / highest: OT Clark $1.2mm 1 yr / 1 of 2 drafted by Colts

2021

Free agents signed from other teams:  12 agents for $22.2mm / $1.8mm per year / highest: OT Fisher $8.4mm 1 yr

Free agents to other teams:  9 agents for $36.8mm / $3.3mm per year / highest: DE Autry $21.5mm 3 yr / 3 of 9 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained: 5 agents for $16.0mm / $3.2mm per year / highest: WR Hilton $8mm 1 yr / 2 of 5 drafted by Colts

2022

Free agents signed from other teams:  14 agents for $42.2mm / $2.7mm per year / highest: CB Gilmore $22mm 2 yr

Free agents to other teams:  14 agents for $54.5mm / $2.7mm per year / highest: OG Glowinski $18.3 3 yr / 3 of 14 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  NONE

2023

Free agents signed from other teams:  14 agents for $64.4mm / $3.4mm per year / highest: DE Ebukam $24mm 3 yr

Free agents to other teams:  13 agents for $71.7mm / $4.3mm per year / highest: LB Okereke $40mm 4 yr / 4 of 13 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  2 agents for $15.2mm / $3.8mm per year / highest: LB Speed $8mm 2 yr / 1 of 2 drafted by Colts

2024

Free agents signed from other teams:  2 agents for $18.5mm / $6.1mm per year / highest: DT Davis $14mm 2 yr

Free agents to other teams:  5 agents for $36.8mm / $5.3mm per year / highest: QB Minshew $25mm 2 yr / 0 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  10 agents for $93.9mm / $6.3mm per year / highest: DT Stewart $39mm 3 yr / 4 of 10 drafted by Colts

 

Instead of signing free agents from other teams, and allowing our players to leave, Ballard had a 100% reversal, signing our own players the kind of money they would have gotten from other teams, and retaining them instead.  This isn't just a reversal, it's a HUGE reversal.  Almost as if Ballard said, "Well, the plan of not paying our own players didn't work out.  Let's try retaining them all, and giving them the money they want.  Let's see how this works!"

[richard pallo]

14 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

I know, this is really weird.  My contributing to a thread that I've already complained about twice.

But -- I'm an analyst by trade.  And I was looking at a really peculiar thing.  Chris Ballard did an incredible turnabout this year, when it comes to free agents.  Not saying it's good.  Or that it's better.  But that it's DIFFERENT.  Very Different.

Here's some compiled yearly Free Agent stats from Sportrac:

 

2020

Free agents signed from other teams:  8 agents for $34.5mm / $4.3mm per year / highest: QB Rivers $25mm 1 yr

Free agents to other teams:  10 agents for $26.2mm / $2.4mm per year / highest: TE Ebron $12mm 1 yr / 1 of 10 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  2 agents for $2.0mm / $1.0mm per year / highest: OT Clark $1.2mm 1 yr / 1 of 2 drafted by Colts

2021

Free agents signed from other teams:  12 agents for $22.2mm / $1.8mm per year / highest: OT Fisher $8.4mm 1 yr

Free agents to other teams:  9 agents for $36.8mm / $3.3mm per year / highest: DE Autry $21.5mm 3 yr / 3 of 9 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained: 5 agents for $16.0mm / $3.2mm per year / highest: WR Hilton $8mm 1 yr / 2 of 5 drafted by Colts

2022

Free agents signed from other teams:  14 agents for $42.2mm / $2.7mm per year / highest: CB Gilmore $22mm 2 yr

Free agents to other teams:  14 agents for $54.5mm / $2.7mm per year / highest: OG Glowinski $18.3 3 yr / 3 of 14 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  NONE

2023

Free agents signed from other teams:  14 agents for $64.4mm / $3.4mm per year / highest: DE Ebukam $24mm 3 yr

Free agents to other teams:  13 agents for $71.7mm / $4.3mm per year / highest: LB Okereke $40mm 4 yr / 4 of 13 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  2 agents for $15.2mm / $3.8mm per year / highest: LB Speed $8mm 2 yr / 1 of 2 drafted by Colts

2024

Free agents signed from other teams:  2 agents for $18.5mm / $6.1mm per year / highest: DT Davis $14mm 2 yr

Free agents to other teams:  5 agents for $36.8mm / $5.3mm per year / highest: QB Minshew $25mm 2 yr / 0 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  10 agents for $93.9mm / $6.3mm per year / highest: DT Stewart $39mm 3 yr / 4 of 10 drafted by Colts

 

Instead of signing free agents from other teams, and allowing our players to leave, Ballard had a 100% reversal, signing our own players the kind of money they would have gotten from other teams, and retaining them instead.  This isn't just a reversal, it's a HUGE reversal.  Almost as if Ballard said, "Well, the plan of not paying our own players didn't work out.  Let's try retaining them all, and giving them the money they want.  Let's see how this works!"

It was a huge reversal this year.  But it wasn’t because he just wanted to try something different.  He changed because for the first time he liked the players he had on his roster more than any of the replacements he could have brought in.  That’s a big statement in itself.  Continuity does matter.  Shane even said the same thing.  All they did was make a couple of changes in position coaches.  That’s it pretty much.  They are going all in with the current roster along with the return of AR and JT for the year.  Shane and Ballard are on the same page here.  If Shane wanted to change out some players I think he would have pushed for it and Ballard would have done it.  They are two happy and confident people right now with the draft in front of them.  Don’t be surprised if they reverse themselves in the draft as well.  I can see them moving up in the 1st rd if they really feel adding a certain player can make them more explosive.  No more same old same old.  Those days are over.  Ballard doesn’t have forever. He has his quarterback and his coach.  When this draft and offseason is over.  I think the Colts will be locked and loaded and ready to go.

[VikingsFanInChennai]

1 hour ago, John Hammonds said:

I know, this is really weird.  My contributing to a thread that I've already complained about twice.

But -- I'm an analyst by trade.  And I was looking at a really peculiar thing.  Chris Ballard did an incredible turnabout this year, when it comes to free agents.  Not saying it's good.  Or that it's better.  But that it's DIFFERENT.  Very Different.

Here's some compiled yearly Free Agent stats from Sportrac:

 

2020

Free agents signed from other teams:  8 agents for $34.5mm / $4.3mm per year / highest: QB Rivers $25mm 1 yr

Free agents to other teams:  10 agents for $26.2mm / $2.4mm per year / highest: TE Ebron $12mm 1 yr / 1 of 10 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  2 agents for $2.0mm / $1.0mm per year / highest: OT Clark $1.2mm 1 yr / 1 of 2 drafted by Colts

2021

Free agents signed from other teams:  12 agents for $22.2mm / $1.8mm per year / highest: OT Fisher $8.4mm 1 yr

Free agents to other teams:  9 agents for $36.8mm / $3.3mm per year / highest: DE Autry $21.5mm 3 yr / 3 of 9 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained: 5 agents for $16.0mm / $3.2mm per year / highest: WR Hilton $8mm 1 yr / 2 of 5 drafted by Colts

2022

Free agents signed from other teams:  14 agents for $42.2mm / $2.7mm per year / highest: CB Gilmore $22mm 2 yr

Free agents to other teams:  14 agents for $54.5mm / $2.7mm per year / highest: OG Glowinski $18.3 3 yr / 3 of 14 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  NONE

2023

Free agents signed from other teams:  14 agents for $64.4mm / $3.4mm per year / highest: DE Ebukam $24mm 3 yr

Free agents to other teams:  13 agents for $71.7mm / $4.3mm per year / highest: LB Okereke $40mm 4 yr / 4 of 13 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  2 agents for $15.2mm / $3.8mm per year / highest: LB Speed $8mm 2 yr / 1 of 2 drafted by Colts

2024

Free agents signed from other teams:  2 agents for $18.5mm / $6.1mm per year / highest: DT Davis $14mm 2 yr

Free agents to other teams:  5 agents for $36.8mm / $5.3mm per year / highest: QB Minshew $25mm 2 yr / 0 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  10 agents for $93.9mm / $6.3mm per year / highest: DT Stewart $39mm 3 yr / 4 of 10 drafted by Colts

 

Instead of signing free agents from other teams, and allowing our players to leave, Ballard had a 100% reversal, signing our own players the kind of money they would have gotten from other teams, and retaining them instead.  This isn't just a reversal, it's a HUGE reversal.  Almost as if Ballard said, "Well, the plan of not paying our own players didn't work out.  Let's try retaining them all, and giving them the money they want.  Let's see how this works!"

I thought Colts spent 200 million on retaining in-house free agents, reading what Stephen Holder tried to preach.... 

[VikingsFanInChennai]

1 hour ago, John Hammonds said:

I know, this is really weird.  My contributing to a thread that I've already complained about twice.

But -- I'm an analyst by trade.  And I was looking at a really peculiar thing.  Chris Ballard did an incredible turnabout this year, when it comes to free agents.  Not saying it's good.  Or that it's better.  But that it's DIFFERENT.  Very Different.

Here's some compiled yearly Free Agent stats from Sportrac:

 

2020

Free agents signed from other teams:  8 agents for $34.5mm / $4.3mm per year / highest: QB Rivers $25mm 1 yr

Free agents to other teams:  10 agents for $26.2mm / $2.4mm per year / highest: TE Ebron $12mm 1 yr / 1 of 10 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  2 agents for $2.0mm / $1.0mm per year / highest: OT Clark $1.2mm 1 yr / 1 of 2 drafted by Colts

2021

Free agents signed from other teams:  12 agents for $22.2mm / $1.8mm per year / highest: OT Fisher $8.4mm 1 yr

Free agents to other teams:  9 agents for $36.8mm / $3.3mm per year / highest: DE Autry $21.5mm 3 yr / 3 of 9 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained: 5 agents for $16.0mm / $3.2mm per year / highest: WR Hilton $8mm 1 yr / 2 of 5 drafted by Colts

2022

Free agents signed from other teams:  14 agents for $42.2mm / $2.7mm per year / highest: CB Gilmore $22mm 2 yr

Free agents to other teams:  14 agents for $54.5mm / $2.7mm per year / highest: OG Glowinski $18.3 3 yr / 3 of 14 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  NONE

2023

Free agents signed from other teams:  14 agents for $64.4mm / $3.4mm per year / highest: DE Ebukam $24mm 3 yr

Free agents to other teams:  13 agents for $71.7mm / $4.3mm per year / highest: LB Okereke $40mm 4 yr / 4 of 13 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  2 agents for $15.2mm / $3.8mm per year / highest: LB Speed $8mm 2 yr / 1 of 2 drafted by Colts

2024

Free agents signed from other teams:  2 agents for $18.5mm / $6.1mm per year / highest: DT Davis $14mm 2 yr

Free agents to other teams:  5 agents for $36.8mm / $5.3mm per year / highest: QB Minshew $25mm 2 yr / 0 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  10 agents for $93.9mm / $6.3mm per year / highest: DT Stewart $39mm 3 yr / 4 of 10 drafted by Colts

 

Instead of signing free agents from other teams, and allowing our players to leave, Ballard had a 100% reversal, signing our own players the kind of money they would have gotten from other teams, and retaining them instead.  This isn't just a reversal, it's a HUGE reversal.  Almost as if Ballard said, "Well, the plan of not paying our own players didn't work out.  Let's try retaining them all, and giving them the money they want.  Let's see how this works!"

It's also Steichen's first off-season with all the time dedicated since the end of last season to work with Ballard.

 

It just might be that the Colts free agents of this year were deemed important for them, while other teams had chance to get any of them except Pittman on the first day of the free agency but none of the other 31 NFL teams went all-in on guys like Moore, Stewart or Blackmon to give more than what Colts would offer. So, most of them returned.

 

We'll also need to see more years with the same coaching staff to find if there's any pattern. 

[John Hammonds]

9 hours ago, richard pallo said:

It was a huge reversal this year.  But it wasn’t because he just wanted to try something different.  He changed because for the first time he liked the players he had on his roster more than any of the replacements he could have brought in.  That’s a big statement in itself.  Continuity does matter.  Shane even said the same thing.  All they did was make a couple of changes in position coaches.  That’s it pretty much.  They are going all in with the current roster along with the return of AR and JT for the year.  Shane and Ballard are on the same page here.  If Shane wanted to change out some players I think he would have pushed for it and Ballard would have done it.  They are two happy and confident people right now with the draft in front of them.  Don’t be surprised if they reverse themselves in the draft as well.  I can see them moving up in the 1st rd if they really feel adding a certain player can make them more explosive.  No more same old same old.  Those days are over.  Ballard doesn’t have forever. He has his quarterback and his coach.  When this draft and offseason is over.  I think the Colts will be locked and loaded and ready to go.

That's no joke.  I was thinking the same thing.  Why would he want to re-sign any of the players from his wretched 2019 draft?  Bleah!

[John Hammonds]

7 hours ago, VikingsFanInChennai said:

I thought Colts spent 200 million on retaining in-house free agents, reading what Stephen Holder tried to preach.... 

I think that's counting both free agents and extensions.  I was just compiling only the free agent figures on Sportrac.  It was pretty amazing.  I already knew from listening to the radio that Ballard was spending the money retaining his own.  But when you actually see the numbers, it jumps out at you.  Instead of spending 30-odd million dollars signing 12 to 14 players from other rosters, most of whom are bargain basement people, and signing only 2 or 3 of your own, he spent 93 million dollars signing 10 of his own players, while signing only 2 guys from other teams.  It's a complete and stunning reversal.

[AwesomeAustin]

19 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

I think that's counting both free agents and extensions.  I was just compiling only the free agent figures on Sportrac.  It was pretty amazing.  I already knew from listening to the radio that Ballard was spending the money retaining his own.  But when you actually see the numbers, it jumps out at you.  Instead of spending 30-odd million dollars signing 12 to 14 players from other rosters, most of whom are bargain basement people, and signing only 2 or 3 of your own, he spent 93 million dollars signing 10 of his own players, while signing only 2 guys from other teams.  It's a complete and stunning reversal.

I noticed this as well. Gives me a lot of confidence the Colts are ready to compete and looking to get the last 3-4 guys needed from the draft or developing guys already here waiting their turn. A lot of people are upset we didn’t add more in free agency but we don’t need to. The return of AR and another year together should improve most players enough we can compete with anyone. This is going to be a really good year 

[John Hammonds]

1 minute ago, AwesomeAustin said:

I noticed this as well. Gives me a lot of confidence the Colts are ready to compete and looking to get the last 3-4 guys needed from the draft or developing guys already here waiting their turn. A lot of people are upset we didn’t add more in free agency but we don’t need to. The return of AR and another year together should improve most players enough we can compete with anyone. This is going to be a really good year 

I agree.  I feel a lot like I did during the offseason going into 2019.  We just did a good thing.  We have a lot of young players who are still growing and improving.  We have an opportunity to add to it, and take the Next Step.

(Let's just hope we don't repeat that offseason.  Since that's when Disaster struck, and Luck retired literally 5 minutes before the season started!)

[shasta519]

On 4/13/2024 at 10:55 PM, richard pallo said:

It was a huge reversal this year.  But it wasn’t because he just wanted to try something different.  He changed because for the first time he liked the players he had on his roster more than any of the replacements he could have brought in.  That’s a big statement in itself.  Continuity does matter.  Shane even said the same thing.  All they did was make a couple of changes in position coaches.  That’s it pretty much.  They are going all in with the current roster along with the return of AR and JT for the year.  Shane and Ballard are on the same page here.  If Shane wanted to change out some players I think he would have pushed for it and Ballard would have done it.  They are two happy and confident people right now with the draft in front of them.  Don’t be surprised if they reverse themselves in the draft as well.  I can see them moving up in the 1st rd if they really feel adding a certain player can make them more explosive.  No more same old same old.  Those days are over.  Ballard doesn’t have forever. He has his quarterback and his coach.  When this draft and offseason is over.  I think the Colts will be locked and loaded and ready to go.

Ballard re-signing players is a huge role reversal? 1/3 of the starting roster are guys who have been here since 2019 or earlier. He’s always signed his own. Oke might be the only one he didn’t and that was just because they had re-signed Shaq to a big deal. 

[richard pallo]

7 hours ago, shasta519 said:

Ballard re-signing players is a huge role reversal? 1/3 of the starting roster are guys who have been here since 2019 or earlier. He’s always signed his own. Oke might be the only one he didn’t and that was just because they had re-signed Shaq to a big deal. 

You don't get it that's okay.  Of course he signs his own players. A few every year but nothing to the extent he did this year.  That was unprecedented.  BTW he didn't sign Campbell or Glowinski just to name two quickly off the top of my head. 

[stitches]

On 4/14/2024 at 5:18 AM, John Hammonds said:

I know, this is really weird.  My contributing to a thread that I've already complained about twice.

But -- I'm an analyst by trade.  And I was looking at a really peculiar thing.  Chris Ballard did an incredible turnabout this year, when it comes to free agents.  Not saying it's good.  Or that it's better.  But that it's DIFFERENT.  Very Different.

Here's some compiled yearly Free Agent stats from Sportrac:

 

2020

Free agents signed from other teams:  8 agents for $34.5mm / $4.3mm per year / highest: QB Rivers $25mm 1 yr

Free agents to other teams:  10 agents for $26.2mm / $2.4mm per year / highest: TE Ebron $12mm 1 yr / 1 of 10 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  2 agents for $2.0mm / $1.0mm per year / highest: OT Clark $1.2mm 1 yr / 1 of 2 drafted by Colts

2021

Free agents signed from other teams:  12 agents for $22.2mm / $1.8mm per year / highest: OT Fisher $8.4mm 1 yr

Free agents to other teams:  9 agents for $36.8mm / $3.3mm per year / highest: DE Autry $21.5mm 3 yr / 3 of 9 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained: 5 agents for $16.0mm / $3.2mm per year / highest: WR Hilton $8mm 1 yr / 2 of 5 drafted by Colts

2022

Free agents signed from other teams:  14 agents for $42.2mm / $2.7mm per year / highest: CB Gilmore $22mm 2 yr

Free agents to other teams:  14 agents for $54.5mm / $2.7mm per year / highest: OG Glowinski $18.3 3 yr / 3 of 14 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  NONE

2023

Free agents signed from other teams:  14 agents for $64.4mm / $3.4mm per year / highest: DE Ebukam $24mm 3 yr

Free agents to other teams:  13 agents for $71.7mm / $4.3mm per year / highest: LB Okereke $40mm 4 yr / 4 of 13 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  2 agents for $15.2mm / $3.8mm per year / highest: LB Speed $8mm 2 yr / 1 of 2 drafted by Colts

2024

Free agents signed from other teams:  2 agents for $18.5mm / $6.1mm per year / highest: DT Davis $14mm 2 yr

Free agents to other teams:  5 agents for $36.8mm / $5.3mm per year / highest: QB Minshew $25mm 2 yr / 0 drafted by Colts

Free agents retained:  10 agents for $93.9mm / $6.3mm per year / highest: DT Stewart $39mm 3 yr / 4 of 10 drafted by Colts

 

Instead of signing free agents from other teams, and allowing our players to leave, Ballard had a 100% reversal, signing our own players the kind of money they would have gotten from other teams, and retaining them instead.  This isn't just a reversal, it's a HUGE reversal.  Almost as if Ballard said, "Well, the plan of not paying our own players didn't work out.  Let's try retaining them all, and giving them the money they want.  Let's see how this works!"

I think if you look at it a bit deeper it doesn't say that much and it's not that big of a departure. A ton of the signings in previous years come after the draft(i.e. he can still do it this year) and a lot of them are very cheap - very low average salary. So... what does that mean? IMO it means Ballard is waiting to see what he can do with the draft and then he will likely go out and fill the holes with cheap vets that in a lot of cases we don't even remember the next year. Example... Genard Avery, Chris Lammons, Kenyan Drake, Jake Martin, Amari Rodgers, Isaac Taylor-Stuart, Jalen Tabor, Breshad Perriman, AQM(back from Bears)... those were all signed last summer after the draft. 

[GoColts8818]

2 hours ago, richard pallo said:

You don't get it that's okay.  Of course he signs his own players. A few every year but nothing to the extent he did this year.  That was unprecedented.  BTW he didn't sign Campbell or Glowinski just to name two quickly off the top of my head. 

Or the ever famous Autry.  It’s funny how fans scream about that as the worst move Ballard has ever made but when talking about letting leave people forget all about him.  He also let Minshew and Moss walk this year.  This year was different because of the number of free agents the Colts had.  Normally they don’t have nearly this many in one off-season.

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

I think if you look at it a bit deeper it doesn't say that much and it's not that big of a departure. A ton of the signings in previous years come after the draft(i.e. he can still do it this year) and a lot of them are very cheap - very low average salary. So... what does that mean? IMO it means Ballard is waiting to see what he can do with the draft and then he will likely go out and fill the holes with cheap vets that in a lot of cases we don't even remember the next year. Example... Genard Avery, Chris Lammons, Kenyan Drake, Jake Martin, Amari Rodgers, Isaac Taylor-Stuart, Jalen Tabor, Breshad Perriman, AQM(back from Bears)... those were all signed last summer after the draft. 

I think you could be missing the point.  Before this year the average number of our own FA retained was 2 over the last four years.  This year it was 10.  That’s the point he was making.

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, richard pallo said:

You don't get it that's okay.  Of course he signs his own players. A few every year but nothing to the extent he did this year.  That was unprecedented.  BTW he didn't sign Campbell or Glowinski just to name two quickly off the top of my head. 

 

PC was oft-injured and wasn't any good, so that's not really a good example.

 

Glow WAS signed to an extension at one point. He didn't get a third contract because the OL was already getting big money. 

 

Oke left in FA because Shaq (another Colts player re-signed to a big deal) was in his way, both positionally and financially. If Shaq wasn't here, Ballard brings him back.

 

Autry left to TEN but Ballard tried to bring him back.

 

It's like a handful of players (only a couple that were core players) vs. the many core players he has re-signed, especially those that he drafted. Whether he did it in March or the summer is just really just timing, not indicative of a reversal of anything.

 

Plus, the Colts FAs this year all entered the league in 2017/2018 (Ballard's first two years as GM), so they are just the first group of his core players to happen to be entering/nearing 3rd contracts. There is no other situation to really compare this to.

 

It's fine, we can just have to agree to disagree on this. But this is "we like our guys" 2.0.

[GoColts8818]

1 minute ago, shasta519 said:

 

PC was oft-injured and wasn't any good, so that's not really a good example.

 

Glow WAS signed to an extension at one point. He didn't get a third contract because the OL was already getting big money. 

 

Oke left in FA because Shaq (another Colts player re-signed to a big deal) was in his way, both positionally and financially. If Shaq wasn't here, Ballard brings him back.

 

Autry left to TEN but Ballard tried to bring him back.

 

It's like a handful of players (only a couple that were core players) vs. the many core players he has re-signed, especially those that he drafted. Whether he did it in March or the summer is just really just timing, not indicative of a reversal of anything.

 

Plus, the Colts FAs this year all entered the league in 2017/2018 (Ballard's first two years as GM), so they are just the first group of his core players to happen to be entering/nearing 3rd contracts. There is no other situation to really compare this to.

 

It's fine, we can just have to agree to disagree on this. But this is "we like our guys" 2.0.

So you agree Oke isn’t the only one he’s let walk which was your earlier claim?

[richard pallo]

19 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

PC was oft-injured and wasn't any good, so that's not really a good example.

 

Glow WAS signed to an extension at one point. He didn't get a third contract because the OL was already getting big money. 

 

Oke left in FA because Shaq (another Colts player re-signed to a big deal) was in his way, both positionally and financially. If Shaq wasn't here, Ballard brings him back.

 

Autry left to TEN but Ballard tried to bring him back.

 

It's like a handful of players (only a couple that were core players) vs. the many core players he has re-signed, especially those that he drafted. Whether he did it in March or the summer is just really just timing, not indicative of a reversal of anything.

 

Plus, the Colts FAs this year all entered the league in 2017/2018 (Ballard's first two years as GM), so they are just the first group of his core players to happen to be entering/nearing 3rd contracts. There is no other situation to really compare this to.

 

It's fine, we can just have to agree to disagree on this. But this is "we like our guys" 2.0.

You’re wrong but that’s okay.  The numbers this year speak for themselves.

[shasta519]

20 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Or the ever famous Autry.  It’s funny how fans scream about that as the worst move Ballard has ever made but when talking about letting leave people forget all about him.  He also let Minshew and Moss walk this year.  This year was different because of the number of free agents the Colts had.  Normally they don’t have nearly this many in one off-season.

 

But he wanted to re-sign Autry. 

 

His approach doesn't extend to every player, like a backup QB and backup RB. They aren't starters or core players and there is also opportunity for PT for them as a big factor in staying or going. 

 

But the further we get into Ballard's tenure, the number of players hitting FA in a given year should rise because there are draft classes entering FA, as well as players ending or nearing the end of their 2nd contracts. This is the first true confluence of that.

 

With DeFo and Zaire extended, you still have Kelly, Dayo, Blackmon and Speed hitting FA. And depending on injuries/retirement, Ballard is likely to re-sign 3-4 of them (actually think Paye will be the one out).

 

If Ballard re-signs/extends a player the previous August or in March, it's still him signing his own. And this is what Ballard has done. I mean...how many starters weren't homegrown? Maybe 2? And many of them are on 2nd or (now) 3rd contracts.

 

 

[stitches]

26 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I think you could be missing the point.  Before this year the average number of our own FA retained was 2 over the last four years.  This year it was 10.  That’s the point he was making.

Yeah, that is somewhat notable, but it's probably largely coincidental and product of who was up for new contract this year and the state of the roster and payroll. I guess we will see in future year if there really is any change in approach...  either way huge majority of those deals are for non-key players. 

[BProland85]

37 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

PC was oft-injured and wasn't any good, so that's not really a good example.

 

Glow WAS signed to an extension at one point. He didn't get a third contract because the OL was already getting big money. 

 

Oke left in FA because Shaq (another Colts player re-signed to a big deal) was in his way, both positionally and financially. If Shaq wasn't here, Ballard brings him back.

 

Autry left to TEN but Ballard tried to bring him back.

 

It's like a handful of players (only a couple that were core players) vs. the many core players he has re-signed, especially those that he drafted. Whether he did it in March or the summer is just really just timing, not indicative of a reversal of anything.

 

Plus, the Colts FAs this year all entered the league in 2017/2018 (Ballard's first two years as GM), so they are just the first group of his core players to happen to be entering/nearing 3rd contracts. There is no other situation to really compare this to.

 

It's fine, we can just have to agree to disagree on this. But this is "we like our guys" 2.0.

See I actually heard from an ESPN reporter who covers the Titans that the Colts didn’t offer a contract to Autry. It was Turron Davenport who reported that. 

[richard pallo]

3 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yeah, that is somewhat notable, but it's probably largely coincidental and product of who was up for new contract this year and the state of the roster and payroll. I guess we will see in future year if there really is any change in approach...  either way huge majority of those deals are for non-key players. 

Pittman, Grover, Moore and Blackmon are starters and I think are key core players.  He will try to bring back every player who performs to his expectations I believe. You don’t perform he’s going to find someone better.  That’s the deciding factor imo.

[shasta519]

25 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

So you agree Oke isn’t the only one he’s let walk which was your earlier claim?

 

He tried to bring Autry back. That was the plan. It's not like he had some different philosophy back then and just let him walk. 

 

Oke is the only notable core player that Ballard didn't try to bring back since his first draft class. But there was a clear reason for that. If the timing was different, we all know he's likely a Colt.

 

Short of a situation like that, Ballard has always tried to sign his own core players (especially those that are homegrown) and succeeded like 95% of the time. Of course there are always going to be injury situations that change plans. 

 

I mean...the roster didn't magically get to where it is with so many guys from 2017/2018 still here. So I'm clear, you agree with this narrative that Ballard pulled a reversal this offseason?

[shasta519]

28 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

You’re wrong but that’s okay.  The numbers this year speak for themselves.

 

The numbers don't mean anything without context. It's now year 8, so there are going to be more players with expiring rookie deals AND players with expiring 2nd contracts hitting FA at the same time, so more FAs to sign. Next year's FA class would have had 6-7 FAs starters prior to the Franklin and DeFo deals. That's just how it goes.

 

The money spent on Kenny (first deal), Kelly, Grover (first deal), Shaq, Smith and Q, etc. is not accounted for in those numbers. In 2021, they signed $180M worth of contracts on Smith and Shaq alone...almost what they spent on all the guys they brought back this year.

 

But it shows $15M on their own FAs in 2021. That's just misleading. And those numbers are what this narrative seems to be based on. While money spent on outside FAs can only count as money spent in FA (aside from a trade).

 

More players set to hit FA, the more difficult is is to extend them all early (like he has done prior with just about every single long-term extensions he has signed) too.

 

Ballard has re-signed how own during his whole tenure here. It's why they had so many homegrown guys on 2nd contracts to begin with.

 

But it's largely the same approach. It just got ratcheted up by circumstances of having the 2020 draft class and multiple guys on 2nd deals hitting FA at once. A similar thing was set to happen next year. "Turncoating" would have been letting multiple guys go and looking elsewhere in FA for replacements.

 

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

Yeah, that is somewhat notable, but it's probably largely coincidental and product of who was up for new contract this year and the state of the roster and payroll. I guess we will see in future year if there really is any change in approach...  either way huge majority of those deals are for non-key players. 

 

It's mostly coincidental and a byproduct of his approach of developing a homegrown team.

 

But it also tracks with Ballard has evangelized and done since he got here. For it to be a reversal, that would suggest that he hasn't focused on re-signing his own. And we all know that is not true.

 

I know "we like our guys" is a meme now, but it's been a thing for quite some time.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

Yeah, that is somewhat notable, but it's probably largely coincidental and product of who was up for new contract this year and the state of the roster and payroll. I guess we will see in future year if there really is any change in approach...  either way huge majority of those deals are for non-key players. 

 

I don't think this is that big of a deal. There are some circumstances that make it seem like a different approach, but really it's not.

 

First, the Colts have always made an effort to sign their own. They just usually sign them before they reach free agency. Using Spotrac's list, those players -- Nelson, Leonard, Smith, Moore, Grover, Speed, Franklin, JT, etc. --  don't factor into to the breakdown of how much a team has spent in free agency, because they sign before their contracts expire. It doesn't even include Pittman because they tagged him.

 

Second, the Colts re-signed several free agent players to third contracts -- Grover, Moore, Rigo Sanchez, Lewis (4th, but that's because of injuries), etc. Most of them were players developed by the Colts, who had previously signed extensions before their rookie contracts expired.

 

I think it's as simple as the Colts having a lot of their core hitting free agency at the same time, and rather than extending them before they expired like they have historically, they let most of them play out their contracts in 2023.

 

And that's kind of what they signaled they would do last offseason. Everyone was asking about JT and Pittman, and Ballard indicated that they wanted to see how the team would respond to the ugly 2022 season, with a new coaching staff, etc. But besides JT and Pittman, there was Moore, Grover, Lewis, Blackmon, Rigo, Pinter, etc., all players with considerable roles on the team that were expiring as well. 

 

If there's any change in approach, it's not keeping their own. It's allowing their own to hit free agency in the first place. And judging from the Buckner extension today, I'd say the standard will still be to re-sign their own players before letting them hit the market, and 2023 was an aberration due the circumstances.

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, BProland85 said:

See I actually heard from an ESPN reporter who covers the Titans that the Colts didn’t offer a contract to Autry. It was Turron Davenport who reported that. 

 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/colts-insider/2021/03/15/colts-news-denico-autry-agrees-3-year-contract-titans/4702512001/

 

I don't know what "strong push" means here, but I would assume numbers were exchanged. If I recall, it came down to the contract structure. Looks like that came from Holder:

 

https://coltswire.usatoday.com/2021/03/15/nfl-colts-free-agency-denico-autry-titans-decision-contract-structure/

 

What probably impacted what seems like a small detail is that the Colts had multiple guys to re-sign to big deals, like Q, Shaq and Smith at the time. But it seems like they at least wanted to and tried to bring him back.

[stitches]

16 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I don't think this is that big of a deal. There are some circumstances that make it seem like a different approach, but really it's not.

 

First, the Colts have always made an effort to sign their own. They just usually sign them before they reach free agency. Using Spotrac's list, those players -- Nelson, Leonard, Smith, Moore, Grover, Speed, Franklin, JT, etc. --  don't factor into to the breakdown of how much a team has spent in free agency, because they sign before their contracts expire. It doesn't even include Pittman because they tagged him.

 

Second, the Colts re-signed several free agent players to third contracts -- Grover, Moore, Rigo Sanchez, Lewis (4th, but that's because of injuries), etc. Most of them were players developed by the Colts, who had previously signed extensions before their rookie contracts expired.

 

I think it's as simple as the Colts having a lot of their core hitting free agency at the same time, and rather than extending them before they expired like they have historically, they let most of them play out their contracts in 2023.

 

And that's kind of what they signaled they would do last offseason. Everyone was asking about JT and Pittman, and Ballard indicated that they wanted to see how the team would respond to the ugly 2022 season, with a new coaching staff, etc. But besides JT and Pittman, there was Moore, Grover, Lewis, Blackmon, Rigo, Pinter, etc., all players with considerable roles on the team that were expiring as well. 

 

If there's any change in approach, it's not keeping their own. It's allowing their own to hit free agency in the first place. And judging from the Buckner extension today, I'd say the standard will still be to re-sign their own players before letting them hit the market, and 2023 was an aberration due the circumstances.

Good point about usually re-signing/extending them before they hit FA and Ballard wanting to wait and see how things go this year after the bad 2022... 

[Superman]

35 minutes ago, stitches said:

Good point about usually re-signing/extending them before they hit FA and Ballard wanting to wait and see how things go this year after the bad 2022... 

 

Yup. A simple way to summarize my earlier point is that the Colts keeping their own is not a departure. The Colts allowing so many of their own to hit free agency is the real departure, and that's not likely to be the new pattern. 

 

And like you said earlier, the Colts sign free agents after the draft every year, so we'll probably see some veteran free agents added. I don't know how many, we already have 76 players under contract per Spotrac, then we'll draft 8-10, plus 10+ UDFAs. Most teams are in the low to mid 70s, the Eagles have 77, while teams that got gutted have fewer (Chargers are the lowest with 57; Ravens have 61). We'll see some roster churn, but there aren't a lot of spots right now.

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I don't think this is that big of a deal. There are some circumstances that make it seem like a different approach, but really it's not.

 

First, the Colts have always made an effort to sign their own. They just usually sign them before they reach free agency. Using Spotrac's list, those players -- Nelson, Leonard, Smith, Moore, Grover, Speed, Franklin, JT, etc. --  don't factor into to the breakdown of how much a team has spent in free agency, because they sign before their contracts expire. It doesn't even include Pittman because they tagged him.

 

Second, the Colts re-signed several free agent players to third contracts -- Grover, Moore, Rigo Sanchez, Lewis (4th, but that's because of injuries), etc. Most of them were players developed by the Colts, who had previously signed extensions before their rookie contracts expired.

 

I think it's as simple as the Colts having a lot of their core hitting free agency at the same time, and rather than extending them before they expired like they have historically, they let most of them play out their contracts in 2023.

 

And that's kind of what they signaled they would do last offseason. Everyone was asking about JT and Pittman, and Ballard indicated that they wanted to see how the team would respond to the ugly 2022 season, with a new coaching staff, etc. But besides JT and Pittman, there was Moore, Grover, Lewis, Blackmon, Rigo, Pinter, etc., all players with considerable roles on the team that were expiring as well. 

 

If there's any change in approach, it's not keeping their own. It's allowing their own to hit free agency in the first place. And judging from the Buckner extension today, I'd say the standard will still be to re-sign their own players before letting them hit the market, and 2023 was an aberration due the circumstances.

 

Agree. I think part of that is circumstantial with the bad 2022 season and new HC, like you said. But also, just the sheer amount of guys that need deals within a short amount of time. 

 

[NewColtsFan]

5 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Love this move!! Still standing by to see what happens with Mo Allie. Lots of cap space available there if we decide to part ways but CB must really like him. We'll see but wrapping up Buck for two more years at the price we got him at was great.

I think Steichen likes MAC as well.   One of the things working in MO’s favor is that (A) this is a terrible case of tight ends, and (B) year after year, colleges are not turning out many true Y-tight ends.  Most of the tight ends coming out of colleges these days are F’s.   This is why the Colts took Woods and Ogletree a few years back.  The opportunity to draft two-Y’s was too good to pass up.  That’s what Ballard and scouts said that draft weekend. 

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I think Steichen likes MAC as well.   One of the things working in MO’s favor is that (A) this is a terrible case of tight ends, and (B) year after year, colleges are not turning out many true Y-tight ends.  Most of the tight ends coming out of colleges these days are F’s.   This is why the Colts took Woods and Ogletree a few years back.  The opportunity to draft two-Y’s was too good to pass up.  That’s what Ballard and scouts said that draft weekend. 

 

I think a lot of fans would would cut Mo a long time ago if it were up to them, so no doubt the team likes him more than the fans do. 

 

But I still wonder just how much the team actually values him. He played 38% of offensive snaps last year. His highest usage games by percentage were Raiders (61%), Pats (60%), and Texans 2nd (53%), all games in which Ogletree was unavailable. He was targeted 22 times last year -- Granson had 50, Mallory had 26, Ogletree had 21. 

 

So he's not a huge part of anything the offense is doing. Even if he's the best blocking TE we have -- and I don't think he's a great blocker, but that's JMO -- is he five times better than Ogletree or Mallory? Because he's making five times more money than either of them. 

 

I think if Ogletree comes back, Mo is on the bubble. And maybe would have been released already if not for the Ogletree uncertainty. Again, JMO.