Does This Team Have Talent?

[Smonroe]

Serious question. I read all off season how talented this team is.  Best RB in the league. Top 5 Oline.  D line ready to break out with the new addition.  Solid LBs and DBs.

 

Everyone (except Ballard apparently) was concerned about the LT, WRs beyond MPJ, and TEs.

 

All the concerns are showing as true so far.   But my question is about the rest of it.  O line is just plain bad.  D line can’t get to the QB.  
 

To sum it up, imho the team has above average talent.  But way below average O and D coaching schemes.  (Okay, that was obvious.  I just felt like venting) 

[IndySouthsider]

Just now, Smonroe said:

Serious question. I read all off season how talented this team is.  Best RB in the league. Top 5 Oline.  D line ready to break out with the new addition.  Solid LBs and DBs.

 

Everyone (except Ballard apparently) was concerned about the LT, WRs beyond MPJ, and TEs.

 

All the concerns are showing as true so far.   But my question is about the rest of it.  O line is just plain bad.  D line can’t get to the QB.  
 

To sum it up, imho the team has above average talent.  But way below average O and D coaching schemes.  (Okay, that was obvious.  I just felt like venting) 

The talent is in the wrong positions. To be successful you need a good LT, QB, WR and Pass rushing.

 

We have none of that. Quite frankly we have bottom of the league in those areas

[Nickster]

6 minutes ago, IndySouthsider said:

The talent is in the wrong positions. To be successful you need a good LT, QB, WR and Pass rushing.

 

We have none of that. Quite frankly we have bottom of the league in those areas

 

This is all there is to it.  It's seems pretty obvious really.

[MikeCurtis]

1 minute ago, IndySouthsider said:

The talent is in the wrong positions. To be successful you need a good LT, QB, WR and Pass rushing.

 

We have none of that. Quite frankly we have bottom of the league in those areas

This is an interesting note

 

I agree somewhat

 

 

The need for another WR was evident yesterday..... remember that dialog for needing a veteran WR in the offseason?

 

The OL hasn't been great.......   They are paid at a "Great line" level

 

The effort wasnt there yesterday......  Th Colts team (I think) has a better roster than the Jags

 

If that be true.....  that leaves COACHING

 

 

I love Frank Riech's style....  As a believer in the "Big Guy" myself, I want Frank to win with this style

 

This team has more than enough talent to win football games......   This team was unprepared to play the last two weeks

 

Thats 90% on the coaching staff

 

Knowing the mindset of your players and what it takes to win..... is a coaching situation

 

 

I think our overall record will look closer to average by the end of the year.........   

 

It may be time

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Moosejawcolt]

4 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

Serious question. I read all off season how talented this team is.  Best RB in the league. Top 5 Oline.  D line ready to break out with the new addition.  Solid LBs and DBs.

 

Everyone (except Ballard apparently) was concerned about the LT, WRs beyond MPJ, and TEs.

 

All the concerns are showing as true so far.   But my question is about the rest of it.  O line is just plain bad.  D line can’t get to the QB.  
 

To sum it up, imho the team has above average talent.  But way below average O and D coaching schemes.  (Okay, that was obvious.  I just felt like venting) 

We don't have a LT, Qb, Corner. DE and WR. I mean what we would call blue chi hell even red chip at those positions. The problem is huge. I have been preaching for years that this defensive is flawed. It's very antiquated. We make average qbs look like hall of famers and it has happened since Ballard took over. There has been no improvement in that area. The Oline has been regressing for 3 years now. I have been saying that but I get barked at. The Dline had shown nothing over 5 years even though Ballard has pumped tons of resources into this area. No game changing wr and/or te on the roster. People on this forum love to make of Moose Jaw Colt and yes I at times say silly things as I am some what reactive lol. One thing I have been saying for years is this. Oline is over rated. No skill players. Dline has been a failure. D scheme is antiquated and Ballard is severely over rated. Oh and I would never have signed Leonard . I would have traded him for a skill player. I would never have signed Nelson . I would have waited till end of year to see how things went. All I hear about Nelson is how he is transcendent talent and makes the Olline better. Please show me the proof? The LT is a mess and his presence was suppose to help that area. So now feel free to dump on me.

[lollygagger8]

They have talented players, just not talented coaches 

[RollerColt]

8 minutes ago, IndySouthsider said:

The talent is in the wrong positions. To be successful you need a good LT, QB, WR and Pass rushing.

 

We have none of that. Quite frankly we have bottom of the league in those areas

It's something that all of the top tier teams have when you look at them:

 

Bills: Dawkins, Allen, Diggs, Von Miller

Chiefs: Johnson, Mahomes, Watson/Moore, Jones

Chargers: Slater, Herbert, Williams, Mack

Bucs: Smith, Brady, Evans, Hicks/Vea

 

[Nickster]

3 minutes ago, lollygagger8 said:

They have talented players, just not talented coaches 

Well once we fire Frank which hopefully won't be too long, not because I think he's the problem but because it should make it more obvious the the GM and his ahem "plan" is the problem. 

 

The longer Irsay continues to meddle, the longer the inevitable rebuild will take to get started. 

The club is in bad shape gents.  We have been Fool's Gold in a week division with a week non-division schedule the last couple years.

[DougDew]

6 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

We make average qbs look like hall of famers and it has happened since Ballard took over.

I've read comments that talk about vanilla play calls, lack of stunts or blitzes. 

 

Dungy never blitzed, but had Mathis and Freeney.  You can't rely upon having all pros at each edge, but edge players should be able to get more pressure on the QB WITHOUT stunts and blitzes than what we've gotten, especially since our coaching staff has a similar philosophy.  Vanilla style doesn't help, but the talent level is not where it needs to be.

[Nickster]

2 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

It's something that all of the top tier teams have when you look at them:

 

Bills: Dawkins, Allen, Diggs, Von Miller

Chiefs: Johnson, Mahomes, Watson/Moore, Jones

Chargers: Slater, Herbert, Williams, Mack

Bucs: Smith, Brady, Evans, Hicks/Vea

 

 

Colts:  Nelson, Buckner, Leonard, Taylor lol  With the exception of Taylor all generational multi millionaires.

 

 

[BProland85]

23 minutes ago, IndySouthsider said:

The talent is in the wrong positions. To be successful you need a good LT, QB, WR and Pass rushing.

 

We have none of that. Quite frankly we have bottom of the league in those areas

Colts have talent at pass rush. They simply don’t have the coaches to prepare and game plan for them to be successfull. Buckner, Ngakoue, and Paye are all good players. I’ll grant you LT and WR though. 

[MPStack]

22 minutes ago, IndySouthsider said:

The talent is in the wrong positions. To be successful you need a good LT, QB, WR and Pass rushing.

 

We have none of that. Quite frankly we have bottom of the league in those areas

The dam finally….

 

[RollerColt]

3 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Colts:  Nelson, Buckner, Leonard, Taylor lol  With the exception of Taylor all generational multi millionaires.

 

 

Also forgot to mention:

 

Rams last year (Whitworth *Retired*), Stafford, Kupp, Donald

 

What we have:

 

LT - Missing, QB - Ryan, WR - Pittman?, DE - Missing

[Nickster]

Just now, DougDew said:

I've read comments that talk about vanilla play calls, lack of stunts or blitzes. 

 

Dungy never blitzed, but had Mathis and Freeney.  You can't rely upon having all pros at each edge, but edge players should be able to get more pressure on the QB WITHOUT stunts and blitzes than what we've gotten, especially since our coaching staff has a similar philosophy.  Vanilla style doesn't help, but the talent level is not where it needs to be.

 

That is one thing that could be tried with Leonard is blitzing, but it wouldn't work long term IMO.  Our already porous coverage units would be even more exposed.  It could be a way to shock an unsuspecting team that is not ready for it like KC this week.

 

I really don't know what we can do with this bunch other than start over.

 

This Dline isn't any good.  I was hoping it would be.

 

We can run and stop the run but that hasn't mattered much since Emmitt Smith LOL.   We can't pass, we can't rush the passer, and we can't cover.   Those are the three things that matter. 

 

 

 

[DougDew]

QB, Flanker, LT, and EDGE.  Passing game positions.   

[MPStack]

4 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Colts:  Nelson, Buckner, Leonard, Taylor lol  With the exception of Taylor all generational multi millionaires.

 

 

 You forgot Smith, who’s been terrible.

 

Bunkner is a shell of what he was 2 years ago.

 

Leonard will never play a full season. Thin frame with back problems is bad juju.

 

How long does Taylor play at a high level. 
 

 

[Nickster]

35 minutes ago, BProland85 said:

Colts have talent at pass rush. They simply don’t have the coaches to prepare and game plan for them to be successfull. Buckner, Ngakoue, and Paye are all good players. I’ll grant you LT and WR though. 

 

Pass rush has some wrinkles that can occasionally help man, but it's basically mano y mano on most pass rushes. We have no one who is or has in the past couple of years been able to beat the blocker in front of him, consistently.  Maybe Buck, but it's really easy to double and chip a 3T when there is little edge threat.

 

Paye is and has never been a proven pass rusher including college.  He's a good edge setter which is fine.

 

Defo is perhaps the most overrated football player we've ever had.  He's a good 3 Tech, but he's far from a game changer in the pass rush department.  He cost us our highest pick in years AND 100 mill in salary.  

 

Ngakuoue looks exactly like a 47 PFF player that he graded last year.  He looks exactly like a 230 lb DE that gets pushed around who does absolutely nothing for the overwhelming preponderance of plays and gets home once in a blue moon.  He looks exactly like a player that no team wants even though he has decent sack numbers. 

 

Man PFF isn't perfect but it's generally in the ballpark of value, but if you look at the numbers from last year, it should be no surprise how bad we look. 

 

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

That is one thing that could be tried with Leonard is blitzing, but it wouldn't work long term IMO.  Our already porous coverage units would be even more exposed.  It could be a way to shock an unsuspecting team that is not ready for it like KC this week.

 

I really don't know what we can do with this bunch other than start over.

 

This Dline isn't any good.  I was hoping it would be.

 

We can run and stop the run but that hasn't mattered much since Emmitt Smith LOL.   We can't pass, we can't rush the passer, and we can't cover.   Those are the three things that matter. 

 

 

 

Paye is a good LDE.  But he is a short striding non bendy guy.  Not really the EDGE presence we're talking about.  He might get there, but that was the knock on him coming out of college, so he may be playing exactly as projected.  More of an all around player but not a sack accumulator.  That type of profile is not a pick 17 type of Dline player, IMO.

 

Jaball Sheard.  Erik Walden (same guy different scheme).  Paye's probably a better version of those guys, but not a different version of those guys.  JMO.  

5 minutes ago, MPStack said:

You forgot Smith, who’s been terrible.

 

Smith was supposed to be a G.

[Nickster]

5 minutes ago, MPStack said:

 You forgot Smith, who’s been terrible.

 

Bunkner is a shell of what he was 2 years ago.

 

Leonard will never play a full season. Thin frame with back problems is bad juju.

 

How long does Taylor play at a high level. 
 

 

 

I know people will think that I just don't like Taylor, but we should never ever ever ever pay a running back big money.  No one should.  They are a dime a dozen.

 

They don't contribute significantly as difference makers to a championship type of team.  They are plug and play.

 

Taylor is good and a home run threat, but he and NO OTHER RB in the game moves the needle as much as even a top quarter WR.  For instance PIttman is a much more impactful player than Taylor IMO.

 

It's not a knock on JT.  It's really not.  He's a really great threat at RB.  But uhh, that at RB.

[Nickster]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Paye is a good LDE.  But he is a short striding non bendy guy.  Not really the EDGE presence we're talking about.  He might get there, but that was the knock on him coming out of college, so he may be playing exactly as projected.  More of an all around player but not a sack accumulator.  That type of profile is not a pick 17 type of Dline player, IMO.

 

Jaball Sheard.  Erik Walden (same guy different scheme).  Paye's probably a better version of those guys, but not a different version of those guys.  JMO.  

Smith was supposed to be a G.

 

Yep first class edge setter.  He will occasionally get home and I like his effort and every team needs a guy like KP, but difference maker on the EDGE was an is a long shot.

 

I wish they would line him up at 3T and 1T in pass rushing downs.  I think he might be able to overcome his lack of bend in interior pass rush.  But I'd be really surprised if he ever eclipses Walden level as a EDGE rusher. 

[lollygagger8]

You know Tom Telesco (was in running for Ballard's job) has been building a pretty decent team over in San Diego......

[Solid84]

32 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

Serious question. I read all off season how talented this team is.  Best RB in the league. Top 5 Oline.  D line ready to break out with the new addition.  Solid LBs and DBs.

 

Everyone (except Ballard apparently) was concerned about the LT, WRs beyond MPJ, and TEs.

 

All the concerns are showing as true so far.   But my question is about the rest of it.  O line is just plain bad.  D line can’t get to the QB.  
 

To sum it up, imho the team has above average talent.  But way below average O and D coaching schemes.  (Okay, that was obvious.  I just felt like venting) 

There’s talent on the team - no doubt. It’s just not where teams generally want it. Nelson, Leonard and JT are all top talents at their position.
  We saw how little we got for those $20m/yr for Nelson last night.
  JT MAYBE could’ve could’ve got something going, but when we have nothing at WR he’s the main target for opposing defenses. 
  Leonard would only have made a difference if he got the peanut-punches going - and we would’ve needed A LOT. 
 

We were mocking the Kirk deal all off season - who’s laughing now?

 

Yes, we do have talent, but as have been said MANY times, we’re overpaying for non-premium positions. 
 

Now, on top of that, Frank has been a complete disaster the last 4-6 games this team has played. It’s been ugly and only gotten worse along the way. 
 

Bradley needs to step it up, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. He DOES need to see more game tape from our guys in his scheme, like he insinuated. But he needs to be better at making adjustments during gametime. 
 

Ballard needs to pull his head out of his ***. Get good at QB, LT, WR and DE. Trade some of our talented non-premium players if he has to to get what we NEED. 

[CoachLite]

It's pretty hard to tell how much talent, or lack of, the Colts have. It would seem that the Colts have better talent than their current performance indicates. If you had an extremely talented team playing for a doofus coaching staff, you can see what might happen - not saying that's the case. We are currently seeing a trend in this country called "quiet quitting", people only doing the bare minimum at their jobs because they suffer under poor leadership. They've lost their spirit, motivation and determination.

 

I suspect this is the problem, and, yes, maybe this extends to the Colts front office, too (the McDaniels situation).

 

What to do about it? Just like mental health, there is a stigma about incompetence that needs to be overcome. Find something else to succeed at, and acknowledge that someone else can do better. This problem has all sorts of names - Dunning-Kruger, the Peter Principle, etc. The first step is to admit you have a problem!

[Mitch Connors]

7 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

I know people will think that I just don't like Taylor, but we should never ever ever ever pay a running back big money.  No one should.  They are a dime a dozen.

 

They don't contribute significantly as difference makers to a championship type of team.  They are plug and play.

 

Taylor is good and a home run threat, but he and NO OTHER RB in the game moves the needle as much as even a top quarter WR.  For instance PIttman is a much more impactful player than Taylor IMO.

 

It's not a knock on JT.  It's really not.  He's a really great threat at RB.  But uhh, that at RB.

 

I love Taylor but I also agree that RB's should never be paid elite money. Most of the NFL moved away from this 15 years ago for a reason. 

 

Heck, unless you're a diehard fantasy football fan how many people can name the RB's on the current best offenses right now - Eagles, Bill, Lions, Dolphins and Ravens (ranked by points per game)? What about the Ram's, Chiefs, Bengals or 49ers RBs last year?

[Rhodelesstraveled]

24 minutes ago, BProland85 said:

Colts have talent at pass rush. They simply don’t have the coaches to prepare and game plan for them to be successfull. Buckner, Ngakoue, and Paye are all good players. I’ll grant you LT and WR though. 

This is pure folly.  Washington destroyed the Jags line and we never sniffed Lawrence yesterday.  We must stop lying to ourselves and injecting hopium.  

[Two_pound]

The Colts must be the only team in the nfl with so many roster deficiencies they are too numerous to count. Did anyone watch the Bears last night? The Cardinals(the raiders stopped playing, maybe a lack of coaching there?). The Jest? They won but they still suck. This forum is out of control, but it is very entertaining!

[Nickster]

11 minutes ago, Mitch Connors said:

 

I love Taylor but I also agree that RB's should never be paid elite money. Most of the NFL moved away from this 15 years ago for a reason. 

 

Heck, unless you're a diehard fantasy football fan how many people can name the RB's on the current best offenses right now - Eagles, Bill, Lions, Dolphins and Ravens (ranked by points per game)? What about the Ram's, Chiefs, Bengals or 49ers RBs last year?

Yep back in my day they were as household namey as the QBs and sometimes even more than QBs.

 

As my back, knee, and shoulder tell me day after day though, that was a long time ago.

[DougDew]

7 minutes ago, Mitch Connors said:

 

I love Taylor but I also agree that RB's should never be paid elite money. Most of the NFL moved away from this 15 years ago for a reason. 

 

Heck, unless you're a diehard fantasy football fan how many people can name the RB's on the current best offenses right now - Eagles, Bill, Lions, Dolphins and Ravens (ranked by points per game)? What about the Ram's, Chiefs, Bengals or 49ers RBs last year?

I'm not going to look at JT and say that his situation is the problem.  He was selected pick 41, and that's not bad for a starting RB with speed.  The problem is that he is the main/only real threat.   He should be one of the last players added as a piece to an offense, but now we are building around him (including our X WR). 

 

You add Gs and RBs as the last pieces.  JMO.

[Nickster]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

I'm not going to look at JT and say that his situation is the problem.  He was selected pick 41, and that's not bad for a starting RB with speed.  The problem is that he is the main/only real threat.   He should be one of the last players added as a piece to an offense, but now we are building around him (including our X WR). 

 

You add Gs and RBs as the last pieces.  JMO.

He is like Leonard and Nelson and Smith.  On Rookie contracts they were great assets.  If he gets paid elite money, he will no longer be a net positive.

 

The allocation will wash over his impact as an RB.  He's also godawful in pass pro and really stunk there yesterday.  He needs to be out on 3rd and long. 

[coming on strong]

The guys that got paid are not showing up only Nelson and the young guys like Pittman and Taylor   .    

[MPStack]

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I'm not going to look at JT and say that his situation is the problem.  He was selected pick 41, and that's not bad for a starting RB with speed.  The problem is that he is the main/only real threat.   He should be one of the last players added as a piece to an offense, but now we are building around him (including our X WR). 

 

You add Gs and RBs as the last pieces.  JMO.

Last year of rookie deal coming up.

[DougDew]

8 minutes ago, Two_pound said:

The Colts must be the only team in the nfl with so many roster deficiencies they are too numerous to count. Did anyone watch the Bears last night? The Cardinals(the raiders stopped playing, maybe a lack of coaching there?). The Jest? They won but they still suck. This forum is out of control, but it is very entertaining!

The Bears took Fields at pick 12.  Then they took Jenkins in the early second, thinking he was a T.  Fields is probably not the answer (and dropped during the draft) and Jenkins never really fit the profile of a T coming out of college.  

 

Bears don't have QB, LT, Flanker, or EDGE; either.

[stitches]

Yes, it does have talent. The problem is the high end talent is at the positions least valuable to winning football in the modern day and the biggest problem of the roster are at the most important positions for winning. 

[Smonroe]

I think most of you summed up the answer quite well:

 

1.)  We have near elite talent at the wrong positions that make a team elite.  Not only that, but their contracts restrict the team from acquiring the talent for those elite positions.

2.)  Ballard is ... I'll say stubborn and has ignored the future QB issue since Luck made his retirement decision.

3.)  (This is my opinion) Frank's play calling is suspect and Gus's D scheme is antiquated.

[MPStack]

7 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

I think most of you summed up the answer quite well:

 

1.)  We have near elite talent at the wrong positions that make a team elite.  Not only that, but their contracts restrict the team from acquiring the talent for those elite positions.

2.)  Ballard is ... I'll say stubborn and has ignored the future QB issue since Luck made his retirement decision.

3.)  (This is my opinion) Frank's play calling is suspect and Gus's D scheme is antiquated.

4.) Team is checked out

[Nickster]

7 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

I think most of you summed up the answer quite well:

 

1.)  We have near elite talent at the wrong positions that make a team elite.  Not only that, but their contracts restrict the team from acquiring the talent for those elite positions.

2.)  Ballard is ... I'll say stubborn and has ignored the future QB issue since Luck made his retirement decision.

3.)  (This is my opinion) Frank's play calling is suspect and Gus's D scheme is antiquated.

 

[Myles]

they do not have a head coach or play caller who can use the talent that this team has.

[shasta519]

Yes they have talent. And they were clearly badly missing a couple of them against JAC, as we saw.

 

But that also goes to show that they might not have as much as talent after all, or at least talented depth. Certainly not the"7 PBer" roster that is often mentioned.

 

Some Colts players also get really overrated too. But all fanbases tend to do that. However, I am not sure if other teams have a local media that so eagerly praises the team and FO. 

[Mitch Connors]

3 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

I think most of you summed up the answer quite well:

 

1.)  We have near elite talent at the wrong positions that make a team elite.  Not only that, but their contracts restrict the team from acquiring the talent for those elite positions.

2.)  Ballard is ... I'll say stubborn and has ignored the future QB issue since Luck made his retirement decision.

3.)  (This is my opinion) Frank's play calling is suspect and Gus's D scheme is antiquated.

Nice summation. Point #2 has been my biggest frustration with Ballard - not drafting a QB.

 

I know a lot of people like to point to the Browns as a team that's drafted a million QBs but never found the guy and it killed them. Well, I'd counter by saying what about the Dolphins? They've drafted 1 first-round QB in 25 years in Tannehill (I don't want to crown or dismiss Tua yet) and they've been irrelevant the entire time. It may not be great to be the Browns swinging and missing but we're well on our way to being the Dolphins that never swing and never hit anything either. 

[luv_pony_express]

1 hour ago, Smonroe said:

Serious question. I read all off season how talented this team is.  Best RB in the league. Top 5 Oline.  D line ready to break out with the new addition.  Solid LBs and DBs.

 

Everyone (except Ballard apparently) was concerned about the LT, WRs beyond MPJ, and TEs.

 

All the concerns are showing as true so far.   But my question is about the rest of it.  O line is just plain bad.  D line can’t get to the QB.  
 

To sum it up, imho the team has above average talent.  But way below average O and D coaching schemes.  (Okay, that was obvious.  I just felt like venting) 

 

This whole "Top  5 OLine" thing has been a lingering delusion based on what it used to be.

 

We have Nelson, yeah.  But Braden Smith is an expensive liability now.  For whatever reason, he has clearly regressed a lot.  Pryor is just in over his head at LT.  We do have a rookie, but he clearly wasn't ready to step into the role.  We let 2 serviceable RGs walk, because we had too much money in Nelson, Smith, and Kelly.

 

If we can't protect Matt Ryan, all the rest is academic.  And that's where we're at right now.  Both ends of the line are wide open.  I expected LT to be a problem.  RT being just as much of one is an unwelcome surprise.