BR Darius Leonard Contract Projection

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

I don't think it's an either/or conversation. You can pay Leonard, AND others. We simply need draft a legit DE1 and CB1 in the next two years and ride the cheap rookie contracts. 

I agree. I would go 18 Mill a year with Leonard, I think that would do it. Maybe 5/90 or 4/72. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Honestly.  I would not invest a ton of money in any of the linebacker positions. I think in this scheme, you can get the players in later rounds. Will they b as good as Leonard? Probably not, but they don't have to be. I would not go an higher than 15 million and that even hurts.  I would low ball him. He would feel offended and I would pick and work a trade for a corner.

Basically you are saying you want him to walk by saying 15 Mill a year because he will never go for that and you know it.

[Moosejawcolt]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Basically you are saying you want him to walk by saying 15 Mill a year because he will never go for that and you know it.

Yup

[EastStreet]

6 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I agree. I would go 18 Mill a year with Leonard, I think that would do it. Maybe 5/90 or 4/72. 

Hope we don't set the market with him. Top 5 is fine, but not #1.

Hopefully they extend either Leonard or Q early, and push some $ into this year to make it cheaper overall. 

Just not sure what they'll be able to do given the open holes we still have, and all the mystery around future caps.

[Moosejawcolt]

8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I don't think it's an either/or conversation. You can pay Leonard, AND others. We simply need draft a legit DE1 and CB1 in the next two years and ride the cheap rookie contracts. 

This is the way I look at it. Let's say Leonard and Nelson get their way and reset the market. R people comfortable paying a guard and  a WSL 20 million a year each ? Do u think u have chance winning a Superbowl with that amount of capital in those 2 positions? Yes the cap increases, but man that is  a lot of money and the Colts have no skill players making big money yet.

[Moosejawcolt]

2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Hope we don't set the market with him. Top 5 is fine, but not #1.

Hopefully they extend either Leonard or Q early, and push some $ into this year to make it cheaper overall. 

Just not sure what they'll be able to do given the open holes we still have, and all the mystery around future caps.

I don't see Leonrd backing down from being paid #1 money. He always feels under valued and always having to prove himself. Not a good sign if u r expecting him  not to go for a huge payday. That's just me

[2006Coltsbestever]

Bobby Wagner who is great makes 18 Mill a year but will be 31 in June, Leonard is a lot younger. Leonard should get around 18 Mill, I think he deserves it.

[Moosejawcolt]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Bobby Wagner who is great makes 18 Mill a year but will be 31 in June, Leonard is a lot younger. Leonard should get around 18 Mill, I think he deserves it.

And Sea Hawks have a horrible defense and run a antiquated defense like the Colts. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

And Sea Hawks have a horrible defense and run a antiquated defense like the Colts. 

Seattle went to 2 SB's when Wagner was in his prime and won 1. Leonard is 25 and in his prime.

[EastStreet]

7 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

This is the way I look at it. Let's say Leonard and Nelson get their way and reset the market. R people comfortable paying a guard and  a WSL 20 million a year each ? Do u think u have chance winning a Superbowl with that amount of capital in those 2 positions? Yes the cap increases, but man that is  a lot of money and the Colts have no skill players making big money yet.

Q's impact on the OL is huge. Do I like paying him a ton. Nope. But we'll get our money's worth. And we'll likely have a cheap LT rook contract to ride for a while. He also makes the LT better... As far as WILL is concerned, I think you undervalue the position. It's the 4th most important position on our D. And he's been a tackle machine. 

 

4 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I don't see Leonrd backing down from being paid #1 money. He always feels under valued and always having to prove himself. Not a good sign if u r expecting him  not to go for a huge payday. That's just me

We'll see. There a new #1 at all positions just about every year. Sometimes multiple jumps... 

And just because he feels under valued by the media or awards, doesn't mean he feels undervalued by the team.

[shasta519]

I think he will want what DeFO got in AAV. I think Leonard sees himself as the highest-value player on this defense...and will want to be compensated as such or equally to DeFo. And I don’t blame him at all either.

 

But I don’t think Ballard will do that...so it’s going to be interesting to see it play out.

[chad72]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I agree. I would go 18 Mill a year with Leonard, I think that would do it. Maybe 5/90 or 4/72. 

 

Yeah, that seems like the good range. Agents and players will tell you, it is about the guaranteed money.

 

Dupree got $33.75 mil. guaranteed money, C J Mosley got $51 mil.. So I expect 5/90 with $55 mil. guaranteed or something close to that to seal the deal.

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Q's impact on the OL is huge. Do I like paying him a ton. Nope. But we'll get our money's worth. And we'll likely have a cheap LT rook contract to ride for a while. He also makes the LT better... As far as WILL is concerned, I think you undervalue the position. It's the 4th most important position on our D. And he's been a tackle machine. 

 

We'll see. There a new #1 at all positions just about every year. Sometimes multiple jumps... 

And just because he feels under valued by the media or awards, doesn't mean he feels undervalued by the team.

How come when it comes to contracts for a running back, people always point to wear and tear. Yet, Leonard has lead league in tackles and don't u think that is some what concerning? Also, one has to consider that he plays at 215.

[NewColtsFan]

7 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

How come when it comes to contracts for a running back, people always point to wear and tear. Yet, Leonard has lead league in tackles and don't u think that is some what concerning? Also, one has to consider that he plays at 215.

So he’s good at his job leading the league in tackles and you turn it into a negative!

 

Now it’s a wear and tear issue. 
 

You’ve created a scenario where there’s no reason to keep him!  He’s either too good at his job or not good enough!

 

What a surprise! 
 

[2006Coltsbestever]

33 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

How come when it comes to contracts for a running back, people always point to wear and tear. Yet, Leonard has lead league in tackles and don't u think that is some what concerning? Also, one has to consider that he plays at 215.

Leonard is listed at 230 on Wiki and on Pro Football Stats Reference. Where do you get 215 from? Try again.

[NewColtsFan]

14 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Leonard is listed at 230 on Wiki and on Pro Football Stats Reference. Where do you get 215 from? Try again.

In his interviews, Leonard says he plays under 220 pounds and sometimes says he’s right around 215.  
 

Moose Jaw is not wrong about that...  

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

In his interviews, Leonard says he plays under 220 pounds and sometimes says he’s right around 215.  
 

Moose Jaw is not wrong about that...  

 

I wonder why he is listed at 230, I haven't seen one site have him listed at 215. Strange. Wiki and Pro Football Reference have him listed at 230. Oh well 230 or 215, we should still re-sign him  

[NewColtsFan]

9 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I wonder why he is listed at 230, I haven't seen one site have him listed at 215. Strange. Wiki and Pro Football Reference have him listed at 230. Oh well 230 or 215, we should still re-sign him  

As a players weight goes up ir down during their career, not all teams are good at updating them on their site or in other media either.  
 

And some teams will leave a LBers weight where they think it should be.   They don’t want to advertise about a player who they think is too heavy or too light.   Information is held tight.   They can’t stop the player from doing what he does or saying it publicly,  but the team won’t advertise. 
 

It’s that thing about keeping a competitive edge.    
 

Go figure....   

[Hoose]

I understand Moosejaw's concern with blowing up the cap, but there are certain players who deserve getting top pay. Q is one. Leonard is another. They are the team leaders and All Pro talents. Other teams would kill for either of them. So, you pay your best players and keep them, and then make it work cap wise by drafting well so there is a pipeline of affordable talent moving through the system. That is Ballard's M.O. and so far, so good. As long as the cap jumps back up where it should be ( which by all accounts it will ), the Colts' cap situation will be fine. So, to the Moosejaw's of the world who can't see  paying top $ to Q and Leonard, I say, balderdash. The Colts can and will do it, and won't regret it. 

[Four2itus]

29 minutes ago, Hoose said:

So, to the Moosejaw's of the world......

You mean there are more of them?

 

j/k

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, Hoose said:

I understand Moosejaw's concern with blowing up the cap, but there are certain players who deserve getting top pay. Q is one. Leonard is another. They are the team leaders and All Pro talents. Other teams would kill for either of them. So, you pay your best players and keep them, and then make it work cap wise by drafting well so there is a pipeline of affordable talent moving through the system. That is Ballard's M.O. and so far, so good. As long as the cap jumps back up where it should be ( which by all accounts it will ), the Colts' cap situation will be fine. So, to the Moosejaw's of the world who can't see  paying top $ to Q and Leonard, I say, balderdash. The Colts can and will do it, and won't regret it. 

I don't mind paying players. Rams have invested tons in Donald and Ramsey on their D. I have no problem with that. Buckner has big contract. I have no problem with that

[Nickster]

5 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I don't see WILL as a secondary position. DE, 3T, and CB1 may be higher on the list, but WILL is critical to our D.

I agree he lacks sometimes in coverage, but honestly I think our scheme tweaks have impacted several players to the negative.

 

I agree that we put a lot of pressure on LBs in our scheme.  Problem is we ain’t got no Derrick Brooks running around out there.

 

Leonard will always have a rawness to his game IMO.  If he was an edge that can be an actual asset, but it in coverage.  Not in this league.

[Moosejawcolt]

3 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I agree that we put a lot of pressure on LBs in our scheme.  Problem is we ain’t got no Derrick Brooks running around out there.

 

Leonard will always have a rawness to his game IMO.  If he was an edge that can be an actual asset, but it in coverage.  Not in this league.

I say the same thing and get crucified on this board. I have always said that Leonard is a better player moving forward. He is no where near Brooks. If u r going to pay Leonard big money, he better be elite in coverage. The linebackers in this D r basically safeties and their coverage ability better be their main asset. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I say the same thing and get crucified on this board. I have always said that Leonard is a better player moving forward. He is no where near Brooks. If u r going to pay Leonard big money, he better be elite in coverage. The linebackers in this D r basically safeties and their coverage ability better be their main asset. 

We love you Moose, nobody is crucifying you ,  

[danlhart87]

Let's assume Colts end up losing Leonard. Do you think there are any players in the draft that could come in and replace him?

 

Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah is awesome but he's a 1st definitely. I like Baron Browning too .

[Moosejawcolt]

Just now, danlhart87 said:

Let's assume Colts end up losing Leonard. Do you think there are any players in the draft that could come in and replace him?

 

Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah is awesome but he's a 1st definitely. I like Baron Browning too .

I doubt u can replace what he can do in terms of sacks and turnovers. However, I think u could draft a linebacker who is better in coverage

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, danlhart87 said:

Let's assume Colts end up losing Leonard. Do you think there are any players in the draft that could come in and replace him?

 

Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah is awesome but he's a 1st definitely. I like Baron Browning too .

To your 1st 2 sentence's to answer your question, 

[Moosejawcolt]

7 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We love you Moose, nobody is crucifying you ,  

Lol....that's cute. I am actually from Moose Jaw!, Saskatchewan. Canada. We actually have a big moose just  by our highway 

[Hoose]

9 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Lol....that's cute. I am actually from Moose Jaw!, Saskatchewan. Canada. We actually have a big moose just  by our highway 

Mr Moose, you live in a beautiful province. Been fishing before up at Lake Wollaston, and it was an unforgettable experience. Biggest walleye I’ve ever seen, BTW. As to Leonard, I know he has a few drawbacks in coverage but besides Buckner, there isn’t a more impactful player on that D. And it isn’t close. Gotta keep him, hopefully at a slight team discount.

9 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

[Mel Kiper's Hair]

The only way that Darius Leonard is not a Colt is if he demands something absurd like starting QB money and is unwilling to negotiate. Chris Ballard would lose all credibility with his locker room and across the league if he were to let Leonard walk or traded him because he didn't want to pay him. Ballard is now at the point where he is has to put Jim Irsay's money where his mouth is. Besides, our owner has never shied away from paying our best players top dollar when they deserve it. Leonard will be a Colt and a very rich man for years to come!

[pgt_rob]

So people want Ballard to sign good players to the roster from other teams but doesn't want to pay good players that we already have? lol.... Darius Leonard will be a Colt with a nice contract. He's deserved it and plays well. Need to keep him.

[Boondoggle]

I'm surprised by some of the takes here.  Leonard is a great player and you pay those guys.  The Colts will lock him up.  If he's unrealistic in his demands then they'll use the franchise tag on him, they can probably do that a couple years in a row worst case, it's not ideal and I don't expect it would come to that but it's an option when you have the cap maneuverability.

[Moosejawcolt]

8 hours ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

The only way that Darius Leonard is not a Colt is if he demands something absurd like starting QB money and is unwilling to negotiate. Chris Ballard would lose all credibility with his locker room and across the league if he were to let Leonard walk or traded him because he didn't want to pay him. Ballard is now at the point where he is has to put Jim Irsay's money where his mouth is. Besides, our owner has never shied away from paying our best players top dollar when they deserve it. Leonard will be a Colt and a very rich man for years to come!

Bellichek puts a value on a player and will not budge no matter what. He has not lost credibility around the league. Did u see the free agents he signed this year? I guess thr players respect him as well.

[NewColtsFan]

Just now, Moosejawcolt said:

Bellichek puts a value on a player and will not budge no matter what. He has not lost credibility around the league. Did u see the free agents he signed this year? I guess thr players respect him as well.

Hmmmm?

 

Lets see?   In what way are Bill Belichick and Chris Ballard not the same?    Hmmm?

 

Wait!   Wait!!   Don’t tell me!

 

Hmmm?!?

 

One has 6 Super Bowl titles...  20 straight winning seasons...   he’s also the GM, so he has complete control.  Widely considered the best HC/GM of all-time.   First ballot HoF lock. 
 

The other is Chris Ballard.  4 seasons of being a GM....  and, if you listen to his critics, has never won the AFC South, won only one playoff game,  has only had two good drafts out of four and paid way too much for Carson Wentz who is broken and likely can’t be fixed. 
 

Oh, one other thing, he stupidly over-drafted both Quenton Nelson and Darius Leonard who play the wrong positions and therefor will be dramatically overpaid on their second contract.  
 

I’m sorry....   what was your point again? 

[Moosejawcolt]

48 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Hmmmm?

 

Lets see?   In what way are Bill Belichick and Chris Ballard not the same?    Hmmm?

 

Wait!   Wait!!   Don’t tell me!

 

Hmmm?!?

 

One has 6 Super Bowl titles...  20 straight winning seasons...   he’s also the GM, so he has complete control.  Widely considered the best HC/GM of all-time.   First ballot HoF lock. 
 

The other is Chris Ballard.  4 seasons of being a GM....  and, if you listen to his critics, has never won the AFC South, won only one playoff game,  has only had two good drafts out of four and paid way too much for Carson Wentz who is broken and likely can’t be fixed. 
 

Oh, one other thing, he stupidly over-drafted both Quenton Nelson and Darius Leonard who play the wrong positions and therefor will be dramatically overpaid on their second contract.  
 

I’m sorry....   what was your point again? 

I have no idea what point u r trying to make. I was making a comment on another poster.

[NewColtsFan]

11 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I have no idea what point u r trying to make. I was making a comment on another poster.

Yes...   a point that I don’t think was very credible.   You wonder why a GM doesn’t do everything Bill Belichick does?    As if it was as easy as snapping fingers and making it happen. 

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

Yes...   a point that I don’t think was very credible.   You wonder why a GM doesn’t do everything Bill Belichick does?    As if it was as easy as snapping fingers and making it happen. 

 

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

Yes...   a point that I don’t think was very credible.   You wonder why a GM doesn’t do everything Bill Belichick does?    As if it was as easy as snapping fingers and making it happen. 

That not what I was saying. The person I was responding to was saying that Ballard would lose credibility if he didn't sign Leonard.  He had to in fact sign him or lose credibility in locker room or around the league. I used Bellichek as an example as I didn't agree with his view. Not saying he was wrong, I just brought up an example. Players will respect u if u win.

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

 

That not what I was saying. The person I was responding to was saying that Ballard would lose credibility if he didn't sign Leonard.  He had to in fact sign him or lose credibility in locker room or around the league. I used Bellichek as an example as I didn't agree with his view. Not saying he was wrong, I just brought up an example. Players will respect u if u win.

 

OK....    I thought what I was saying was pretty obvious, but perhaps not,  so I'll try again....

 

If Chris Ballard wants to blow up and destroy everything he's spent the last 4 years building, I can't think of anything that would do it better than what you suggest.

 

I'm NOT saying CB should give Q and Darius blank contracts and say "fill in with the numbers you want"....   but CB will re-sign them and they will be big and generous contracts done without a lot of public fighting (unless someone gets WAY out of line with what they're asking.   But I'm not expecting that.)

 

Ballard has built a franchise built on culture.   We talk about here.   The team talks about it non-stop.    It's buzzing all over the city of Indianapolis.   It's even now buzzing around the NFL.    To suddenly play hardball with your best players, or worse,  trade them because they don't play the right position,  would literally destroy what he's built.   Blow-up the locker room.  Undercut  the relationships Frank Reich has with his players.   The rest of the team would see how we treated Q and Darius and think....   "why should I play hard for this franchise?   F*** them!   I'll ask to be traded the first chance I get."   In case you haven't noticed,  players demanding to be traded has caught on in the NFL.   It's not just for basketball or baseball anymore.

 

Ballard would lose all credibility with everyone.   He'd have wasted his 4 years here.   Reich would be screwed.   The front office would be furious.   Irsay would likely want to fire him.   It would destroy this franchise.

 

Final thought....    since you love to throw around what Belichick does....    deal with this...   when the Patriots were winning Super Bowls and making deep playoff runs year after year...     do you know who some of the top players were, besides Brady?     Logan Mankins,  offensive guard.   Rob Gronkowski,  Tight End.    Vince Wilfork,  Nose Tackle.  Donte Hightower, Inside linebacker.    Four key players.    All paid very well.    All Belichick favorites.    None, with the possible exception of Gronk played a sexy, glamour position that you obsess about.    

 

I expect to agree with NONE of this.    But as someone who covered the NFL for 30 years as a member of the media,  and has followed football as close as I could for 25 more years (55 in all)  this is my judgement what would happen if Ballard would do what you suggest.     Sorry. 

 

Good luck.....

 

[Mel Kiper's Hair]

11 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Bellichek puts a value on a player and will not budge no matter what. He has not lost credibility around the league. Did u see the free agents he signed this year? I guess thr players respect him as well.

 

I could be wrong because I don't follow every team with the same fervor as I do the Colts, but I can't recall Bill Belichick making statements like "You want to raise your own" and "We want to have a sound structure in place where you're producing great talent for the Colts.". Perhaps he has, but he also has the benefit of winning more Super Bowls than any other Coach in NFL history on his side. Right now, Chris Ballard doesn't have the clout to be able to take such a hard line stance. To make statements about raising your own and producing great talent means that when guys that you draft go out and actually produce on the field you reward them for doing so. I don't even understand why re-signing Leonard or Q would even require a 2nd thought. I seriously think that there is no way Chris Ballard can please this forum. Every year when free agency rolls around the forum goes crazy because Ballard is too cheap or can't close the deal. When he is successful in the draft the positions that he drafted (WLB or OG for instance) aren't "the glamour or most important positions" Personally, I think what Chris Ballard has done is outstanding. He has positioned us to be a playoff caliber team without giving up a ton of draft capital or putting the team in a bad salary cap situation. As far as the free agents that the Patriots signed this offseason do you really think signing Jonnu Smith to 31 million guaranteed or Nelson Agholor to 15 million guaranteed were good deals? To me it looks the Patriots might have had to over pay free agents this year to come in and play for them. I think on this subject, we will just have to agree to disagree because like I said earlier unless the Maniac says he wants starting QB money I think the Colts have to and will re-sign him.

[shakedownstreet]

From Bleacher Report April 2018:

 

Quote

The Indianapolis Colts' selection of South Carolina State linebacker Darius Leonard with the fourth pick in the second round was one of the draft's worst moves. They took four second-rounders, so they had plenty of room for error, but this one stands out as a head-scratcher.

 

In the 2017 draft, no FCS off-ball linebacker was taken. In 2016, the top FCS off-ball linebacker (Kamu Grugier-Hill) was picked No. 208. In 2015, the top FCS off-ball linebacker (Kyle Emanuel) was taken 153rd. In 2014, the top FCS off-ball linebacker (Jordan Tripp) was taken 171st. For whatever reason, we woke up Friday in a world where Indianapolis thought taking an FCS linebacker in the top 40 was a good idea.

 

The selection was turned in with running backs Ronald Jones, Kerryon Johnson and Derrius Guice still on the board. The Colts need a No. 1 back, considering their top returning rusher from last season, Marlon Mack, only has 358 career rushing yards and three scores.