TUA Concern

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Setting aside a Qb that seems to be injury prone. Does anyone get concerned that it’s hard to evaluate him with all the stars he has at WR. I need to go watch some videos on him. But he has a ton of talent to throw to. There is a chance he drops. I wouldn’t take him just because of the injuries he has had. It’s going to take a really good scout to really break down if he has a ton of talent or it’s all the WR. 

[chrisbeldridge]

This won’t be an issue for the Colts.  He’ll be gone by the time we draft and we won’t trade up to get Tua.

[MikeCurtis]

Its been reported that Tua is expected to recover 100%

 

If he slips to 6 or 7th Id consider giving up picks to get him

 

He is mobile, accurate, with a quick release

 

I see only TWO blue chip QBs..... Tua and Burrow

 

 

 

 

 

[waka waka]

if he make it past 7 i will be shocked.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 hour ago, MikeCurtis said:

Its been reported that Tua is expected to recover 100%

 

If he slips to 6 or 7th Id consider giving up picks to get him

 

He is mobile, accurate, with a quick release

 

I see only TWO blue chip QBs..... Tua and Burrow

 

 

 

 

 

He has had two ankle  surgeries and a dislocated hip. I saw a analyst say when QB come into the NFL with being injury prone in college if follows them into NFL.  With the WR he has also how good is he really. He just seems to have bust written all over him.

[aaron11]

i would take him in a heartbeat if he lasted until our pick, he probably wont though

 

would be reluctant to trade him to get him  

[MPStack]

Has he declared yet? 

[Valpo2004]

It is a concern but you can evaluate how good the throw was and how good the decision was.  You can also tell if he's reading the defense or not, if he's going through progressions, looking guys off.  

[NewColtsFan]

16 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

Setting aside a Qb that seems to be injury prone. Does anyone get concerned that it’s hard to evaluate him with all the stars he has at WR. I need to go watch some videos on him. But he has a ton of talent to throw to. There is a chance he drops. I wouldn’t take him just because of the injuries he has had. It’s going to take a really good scout to really break down if he has a ton of talent or it’s all the WR. 

Good post, Chloe.    
 

Within the scouting community there are scouts who find judging Bama players difficult.

 

Because Bama players are already receiving near NFL level coaching.  So the question becomes...   have Tide players come close to maxing out their ability?  Will they get that much better with their new NFL team?   
 

Also....   As you note...  how much of their success is because Alabama is loaded with talent every year and they simply overwhelm their opponent with wave after wave of exceptional talent.  Best example:  Tua throws to THREE wide receivers who might all be first round draft picks this year.  Not sure this has ever happened...   it’s an embarrassment of riches. 
 

Scouting is hard.   It’s never as easy and obvious as many here think it is.  

[BleedBlu8792]

17 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

Does anyone get concerned that it’s hard to evaluate him with all the stars he has at WR. I need to go watch some videos on him. But he has a ton of talent to throw to. There is a chance he drops. I wouldn’t take him just because of the injuries he has had. It’s going to take a really good scout to really break down if he has a ton of talent or it’s all the WR. 

 

Was Peyton great or was it because Marvin, Reggie, or Dallas were great? There are point in times where both can mutually exist. 

 

Do you think those 3 guys would be where they are today if Jalen Hurts was still trying to throw them the ball? I HIGHLY doubt it... Tua helped elevate all of those guys to where they are now. If it were just the receivers being that great Hurts is still the QB for Bama right now and you would have NO IDEA who Tua Tagovailoa was. 

[Jdubu]

14 hours ago, BleedBlu8792 said:

 

Was Peyton great or was it because Marvin, Reggie, or Dallas were great? There are point in times where both can mutually exist. 

 

Do you think those 3 guys would be where they are today if Jalen Hurts was still trying to throw them the ball? I HIGHLY doubt it... Tua helped elevate all of those guys to where they are now. If it were just the receivers being that great Hurts is still the QB for Bama right now and you would have NO IDEA who Tua Tagovailoa was. 

I don’t watch much college ball but I do like your point, and I strongly agree, that both cases can mutually exist. I will say, I think it takes a better QB to make receivers look good than the other way around. A wide receiver can run all the right routes and beat the coverage but the QB still has to read the defense and make the proper throws while trying to be killed. 
 

the question always will be for a top program like Alabama, can the kids develop even better in the pros? At least you’re starting with a solid level floor with these kids. Not like a diamond in the round with some tiny receiver out of Florida international university if you know what I mean. 
 

as a side mental note for myself and nothing to do with this topic, could you have imagined this team with Marvin, Wayne and TY Hilton and Manning. Dang!! 

[MikeCurtis]

16 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

Because Bama players are already receiving near NFL level coaching.  So the question becomes...   have Tide players come close to maxing out their ability?  Will they get that much better with their new NFL team?   
 

I hate to take issue with the legend, that is NCF!

 

The STOMPER of new, uniformed posters.....  

   Just bustin yo chops........

 

 

 

This quote doesnt really make sense to me 

 

I dont know how good coaching in college limits anything

 

I think if anything, an Alabama player might be better,  in a shorter time than a talent from a poorly coached school

 

But.... good coaching shouldnt "limit" a player

[MikeCurtis]

16 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Scouting is hard.   It’s never as easy and obvious as many here think it is.  

Agreed

 

However......

My 10 mins on Youtube match very well to the 100 hours that a scout watches 

[buccolts]

2 hours ago, MikeCurtis said:

I hate to take issue with the legend, that is NCF!

 

The STOMPER of new, uniformed posters.....  

   Just bustin yo chops........

 

 

 

This quote doesnt really make sense to me 

 

I dont know how good coaching in college limits anything

 

I think if anything, an Alabama player might be better,  in a shorter time than a talent from a poorly coached school

 

But.... good coaching shouldnt "limit" a player

 

You said 'limit'. NCF didn't.

 

I think what he's saying is that 'bama players could be much closer to a finished product at draft time, while players from other schools may have a lot more, yet to be realized, potential.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[BleedBlu8792]

4 hours ago, Jdubu said:

I don’t watch much college ball but I do like your point, and I strongly agree, that both cases can mutually exist. I will say, I think it takes a better QB to make receivers look good than the other way around. A wide receiver can run all the right routes and beat the coverage but the QB still has to read the defense and make the proper throws while trying to be killed. 
 

the question always will be for a top program like Alabama, can the kids develop even better in the pros? At least you’re starting with a solid level floor with these kids. Not like a diamond in the round with some tiny receiver out of Florida international university if you know what I mean. 
 

as a side mental note for myself and nothing to do with this topic, could you have imagined this team with Marvin, Wayne and TY Hilton and Manning. Dang!! 

 

Bama has been off the charts lately with developing WR talent. I really wouldn't be surprised if their top 3 don't all go within the first 40 picks. Waddle won't be long after them either. However, I still believe Tua raised their game that much more and really put them in a great position succeed at the next level. 

[BleedBlu8792]

1 hour ago, buccolts said:

 

You said 'limit'. NCF didn't.

 

I think what he's saying is that 'bama players could be much closer to a finished product at draft time, while players from other schools may have a lot more, yet to be realized, potential.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Most of the top tier programs are like that though. Ohio State and Clemson also stand out with Alabama as well. 

[MikeCurtis]

1 hour ago, buccolts said:

 

You said 'limit'. NCF didn't.

 

 

 

Split hairs much?

 

"Maxing out" is very much equal to "Limit" in this word use

 

I would agree that the pro style approach and excellent coaching will prepare a kid for the pros a bit better than other places.

 

But.... I dont think they are maxed out or limited by being in the program

 

I think it helps them.

 

However, in some cases, due to the depth and excellent recruiting classes, a very good potential future pro, may not see the field as much as in other programs, and as early, which in THAT case, slows the progress of that individual as they arent seeing the field 

 

 

[richard pallo]

13 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

 

Split hairs much?

 

"Maxing out" is very much equal to "Limit" in this word use

 

I would agree that the pro style approach and excellent coaching will prepare a kid for the pros a bit better than other places.

 

But.... I dont think they are maxed out or limited by being in the program

 

I think it helps them.

 

However, in some cases, due to the depth and excellent recruiting classes, a very good potential future pro, may not see the field as much as in other programs, and as early, which in THAT case, slows the progress of that individual as they arent seeing the field 

 

 

True that's why many recruits transfer to her schools.  To get on the field.

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, MikeCurtis said:

I hate to take issue with the legend, that is NCF!

 

The STOMPER of new, uniformed posters.....  

   Just bustin yo chops........

 

 

 

This quote doesnt really make sense to me 

 

I dont know how good coaching in college limits anything

 

I think if anything, an Alabama player might be better,  in a shorter time than a talent from a poorly coached school

 

But.... good coaching shouldnt "limit" a player

This view isn’t unique to Alabama.  The same was true with Miami with their great run in the 80’s and 90’s.

 

And it was true with USC with their runs in the 70’s and 80’s and again in the early 2000’s.

 

If a talented player has already been coached up with top level coaching in college, then he’s already closer to his ceiling.  He’s got less room to improve.  What you’re seeing is mostly what you’re getting.   
 

Oh...   as for legend?  I know it’s a joke,  but let’s please drop that like a bad transmission!   It’s a major barf!!  

[MikeCurtis]

5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

This view isn’t unique to Alabama.  The same was true with Miami with their great run in the 80’s and 90’s.

 

And it was true with USC with their runs in the 70’s and 80’s and again in the early 2000’s.

 

If a talented player has already been coached up with top level coaching in college, then he’s already closer to his ceiling.  He’s got less room to improve.  What you’re seeing is mostly what you’re getting.   
 

Oh...   as for legend?  I know it’s a joke,  but let’s please drop that like a bad transmission!   It’s a major barf!!  

I always like your pithiness 

 

Even when you are wrong  ... HA

[buccolts]

1 hour ago, BleedBlu8792 said:

 

Most of the top tier programs are like that though. Ohio State and Clemson also stand out with Alabama as well. 

Of course.

There's a minority of schools that generate a larger percentage of NFL ready football players.

[buccolts]

1 hour ago, MikeCurtis said:

 

Split hairs much?

 

"Maxing out" is very much equal to "Limit" in this word use

 

I would agree that the pro style approach and excellent coaching will prepare a kid for the pros a bit better than other places.

 

But.... I dont think they are maxed out or limited by being in the program

 

I think it helps them.

 

However, in some cases, due to the depth and excellent recruiting classes, a very good potential future pro, may not see the field as much as in other programs, and as early, which in THAT case, slows the progress of that individual as they arent seeing the field 

 

 

 

Nope. Not splitting hairs.

'Maxing out' suggests the athletes full potential.

'Limit' suggests they were held back from realizing that full potential.

And, then there are those that just couldn't reach their full potential regardless, for whatever reason.

[stitches]

His injuries are a valid reason for concern and I would defer completely to our doctors on this one. If they OK him, I'm OK taking him.

 

Him having too many good weapons however IS NOT a good reason to not draft him. Chloe, weren't you one of the people who was pushing the idea that we cannot really evaluate JB because he lacks weapons? Now Tua has great weapons and that's the reason we should disregard what he's done in college? I really don't get that line of reasoning. 

 

In some ways having great weapons and being able to trust them helps a QB. In some ways great weapons inflate production of the QB through their after the catch ability or contested catch ability, but you can and should still evaluate a ton of what Tua does isolated from who he's throwing to. Think of it like this - everything he does BEFORE he releases the ball should and can be evaluated - mechanics and footwork, movement in the pocket, eye manipulation, reading defenses, progression reads, anticipation, pocket presence, ability to leave the pocket and make plays on the run, line of scrimmage protection adjustments and audibles, etc... all of this can be evaluated without even looking at what happens once the ball has left his hands. In addition - ball placement, accuracy, arm strength... all of those can be evaluated once the ball reaches its destination(or doesn't reach it).

 

The great weapons can help by presenting him better windows of separation... which he still needs to hit, because we've seen Colts receivers run free all the time this year and JB not being able to hit them or not being willing to make the throw. The great weapons help with inaccurately thrown balls through adjustments and fighting for balls that are less than ideally placed. They help by getting more than their fair share of contested balls, etc... you can still evaluate that. And you can evaluate whether he uses the strengths of his weapons to the max too. For example, you might be OK throwing a contested ball to DeAndre Hopkins, but not to TY Hilton... you might want to give the ball some air and let it rip and rely on TY Hilton to get there by the time the ball arrives, but you won't do the same with DeAndre Hopkins because he doesn't have the speed, etc. 

 

There are a ton of things you can evaluate about a QB completely isolated from the receivers and a ton of things you have to evaluate about the QB precisely in the context of the receivers he has. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, MikeCurtis said:

I always like your pithiness 

 

Even when you are wrong  ... HA

For whatever it’s worth,  this isn’t my opinion, this is what I’ve been reading for 40-50 years in various publications. 
 

As for me being wrong?   That only happens on days of the week that end in.....  D-A-Y!       

[Thunderbolt]

I would pass on Tua, and take Fromm. Looks like a taller version of Brees.

[esmort]

On 12/26/2019 at 8:33 AM, MikeCurtis said:

Its been reported that Tua is expected to recover 100%

 

If he slips to 6 or 7th Id consider giving up picks to get him

 

He is mobile, accurate, with a quick release

 

I see only TWO blue chip QBs..... Tua and Burrow

 

 

 

 

 

 

I heard a DR interviewed on one of the sports shows (can't remember which one) who said anyone giving a prognosis on Tua prior to the draft was full of it (my paraphrase). According to him due to the nature of the injury it would be well after the draft before anyone could even make a legitimate educated guess; let alone say one way or the other with any certainty. 

[MPStack]

1 minute ago, esmort said:

 

I heard a DR interviewed on one of the sports shows (can't remember which one) who said anyone giving a prognosis on Tua prior to the draft was full of it (my paraphrase). According to him due to the nature of the injury it would be well after the draft before anyone could even make a legitimate educated guess; let alone say one way or the other with any certainty. 

That’s a problem and he hasn’t even declared yet! 
 

I would Be scared to take Tua early. 

[buccolts]

4 minutes ago, MPStack said:

That’s a problem and he hasn’t even declared yet! 
 

I would Be scared to take Tua early. 

 

And that removes one more opportunity to push another good player down to our pick.

[stitches]

6 minutes ago, MPStack said:

That’s a problem and he hasn’t even declared yet! 
 

I would Be scared to take Tua early. 

Yeah, this injury is no joke. Ok.... here's a question... we have a mid-first... we have an early second and mid-second... we have mid-third... Lets say the doctors tell you exactly what the above post suggests - "we don't know and we cannot know until after the draft"... 

 

How far would you let him go before you HAVE to take him even with the risk of the injury not being alleviated? 

 

I kind of feel like... (unless you take another QB earlier) you cannot let him fall past our mid-second rounder? Right? 

[MikeCurtis]

15 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

I heard a DR interviewed on one of the sports shows (can't remember which one) who said anyone giving a prognosis on Tua prior to the draft was full of it (my paraphrase). According to him due to the nature of the injury it would be well after the draft before anyone could even make a legitimate educated guess; let alone say one way or the other with any certainty. 

Thats why I say...... Its been reported

 

Bo Jackson wasnt the same afterwards

 

I hope the Drs that did weigh in ARE correct

 

He seems like a good kid

 

[MPStack]

3 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yeah, this injury is no joke. Ok.... here's a question... we have a mid-first... we have an early second and mid-second... we have mid-third... Lets say the doctors tell you exactly what the above post suggests - "we don't know and we cannot know until after the draft"... 

 

How far would you let him go before you HAVE to take him even with the risk of the injury not being alleviated? 

 

I kind of feel like... (unless you take another QB earlier) you cannot let him fall past our mid-second rounder? Right? 

The Bills took Willis Mcgahee towards the end of 1st Rd, some years back. 
 

He tore his knee up in the Bowl game and he actually red shirted his 1st season. 
 

So, tail end of the 1st Rd wouldn’t be all that painful, if you drafted him and he bust I’d say. 

[CheezyColt]

Eh, if Tua is there at 16 or 18 or wherever we're picking, I'm pulling the trigger.  Unless my medical staff has told me that it's more likely than not that he'll never be the same... the chance to get that caliber QB in the middle of the first would be too much for me to pass up.

 

Luckily it's not up to me! 

[LockeDown]

I’m beginning to change my mind about Tua. He could slide and if he does we should consider him. He is a lefty so our RT Smith becomes the important tackle. Since he is young and good , that fits us perfect since our LT is considering retirement.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

55 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

I’m beginning to change my mind about Tua. He could slide and if he does we should consider him. He is a lefty so our RT Smith becomes the important tackle. Since he is young and good , that fits us perfect since our LT is considering retirement.

It’s a huge risk to pass on another player who is really good at 13 though. 

[LockeDown]

35 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

It’s a huge risk to pass on another player who is really good at 13 though. 

Depends on medical reports as to how far he slides. I say take a flier on him if he slides. Maybe.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

40 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

Depends on medical reports as to how far he slides. I say take a flier on him if he slides. Maybe.

He has had so many injuries. They would really have to look and ask themselves are they more fluke type injuries or his body not being able to handle the game. 

[Moosejawcolt]

On 12/27/2019 at 12:32 PM, stitches said:

His injuries are a valid reason for concern and I would defer completely to our doctors on this one. If they OK him, I'm OK taking him.

 

Him having too many good weapons however IS NOT a good reason to not draft him. Chloe, weren't you one of the people who was pushing the idea that we cannot really evaluate JB because he lacks weapons? Now Tua has great weapons and that's the reason we should disregard what he's done in college? I really don't get that line of reasoning. 

 

In some ways having great weapons and being able to trust them helps a QB. In some ways great weapons inflate production of the QB through their after the catch ability or contested catch ability, but you can and should still evaluate a ton of what Tua does isolated from who he's throwing to. Think of it like this - everything he does BEFORE he releases the ball should and can be evaluated - mechanics and footwork, movement in the pocket, eye manipulation, reading defenses, progression reads, anticipation, pocket presence, ability to leave the pocket and make plays on the run, line of scrimmage protection adjustments and audibles, etc... all of this can be evaluated without even looking at what happens once the ball has left his hands. In addition - ball placement, accuracy, arm strength... all of those can be evaluated once the ball reaches its destination(or doesn't reach it).

 

The great weapons can help by presenting him better windows of separation... which he still needs to hit, because we've seen Colts receivers run free all the time this year and JB not being able to hit them or not being willing to make the throw. The great weapons help with inaccurately thrown balls through adjustments and fighting for balls that are less than ideally placed. They help by getting more than their fair share of contested balls, etc... you can still evaluate that. And you can evaluate whether he uses the strengths of his weapons to the max too. For example, you might be OK throwing a contested ball to DeAndre Hopkins, but not to TY Hilton... you might want to give the ball some air and let it rip and rely on TY Hilton to get there by the time the ball arrives, but you won't do the same with DeAndre Hopkins because he doesn't have the speed, etc. 

 

There are a ton of things you can evaluate about a QB completely isolated from the receivers and a ton of things you have to evaluate about the QB precisely in the context of the receivers he has. 

Slight difference.  U give Brissett weapons and the they would compare favourably to the dbs they would  go up against.  Tua has 3 wrs that will probably go in the top 20 of the NFL draft if not sooner. When they hit the field, they were way more talented then the dbs they line up against.  

[w87r]

Would love Herbert or Tua(under assumption Burroe is not an option)

 

Would take either at 13. Even trade up a little.

 

I think their would be more pressure on organization to start Herbert day 1, where as this is almost perfect location for Tua. Tua could red shirt all year if need be(hopefully not), JB could hold it down until he is ready. No pressure for him to rush back, or for organization to rush him on field. JB could start all year as far as I'm concerned, as long as I know Tua is in the waiting.

 

Not overly concerned about Tua's injury. It will probably affect his mobility a little? His arm will be just fine.