Culture over talent

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

With all the talk about Ballard not signing  big FA I think this is a interesting article. Teams  may be starting to value culture  over talent. Very interesting read.

   https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/mar/14/odell-beckham-jr-trade-shows-teams-fetishize-draft-picks-at-the-cost-of-talent

[r a y s k i]

100% agree. Patriots best example. Continuously  making the best with players who failed elsewhere. Talent is not universal in football, it's not like basketball, might work out some place, might not somewhere else. Really interested to see Bell behind a subpar offensive line for example. 

 

 

[SteelCityColt]

50 minutes ago, rayski said:

100% agree. Patriots best example. Continuously  making the best with players who failed elsewhere. Talent is not universal in football, it's not like basketball, might work out some place, might not somewhere else. Really interested to see Bell behind a subpar offensive line for example. 

 

 

 

I concur very strongly with the idea that you can’t put a player in different situation and always expect the same results. I’d argue that this is universal to all sports.

 

It’s funny how we see how much is being invested in sports psychology by professional teams, yet we as fans, sometimes forget that players are just as human as us. Bad locker rooms, homesickness, bad life choices etc. can all massively derail a career.

 

A good example for me was Jerry Hughes. The Colts were criticised for trading him away as people only looked at the outcome. When you read his comments about not one, but two comepletly different FOs, it’s clear that for whatever reason he didn’t want to be in Indy full stop. A guy that unhappy is very unlikely to produce his best. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and move on from unresolvable situations.

[Smonroe]

Interesting article. He never really makes a statement about Gettleman's decision making though.  It is perplexing, giving OBJ the big bonus and then trading him.

 

 

[r a y s k i]

1 minute ago, Smonroe said:

Interesting article. He never really makes a statement about Gettleman's decision making though.  It is perplexing, giving OBJ the big bonus and then trading him.

 

 

We all done it in Madden 

[RollerColt]

Another example, though it is basketball, is:

 

Lebron James and the Lakers. 

[shasta519]

I think the idea is to have both. I think it also starts at the top. The Grigs era didn't have culture issues until Grigs and Pagano started fighting...from what I can tell. A HC and GM getting along and being liked and respected by the players goes a long way.

 

And like they say..."winning cures all." Losing seems to be what exposes culture issues more than anything.

[Rackeen305]

3 hours ago, rayski said:

100% agree. Patriots best example. Continuously  making the best with players who failed elsewhere. Talent is not universal in football, it's not like basketball, might work out some place, might not somewhere else. Really interested to see Bell behind a subpar offensive line for example. 

 

 

I dont trust your post. You dont know what you are talking about. Only CB does.

[tikyle]

I call nonsense.

 

New England is always what people point to but it's not the culture there that's the winning formula, it's the scheme.  The owner, HC and star QB were in a pissing match and none of mattered.  The owner frequents rub and tug spots before AFCCG's, doesn't matter.  They get guys who come in and flame out or don't pan out, doesn't matter.  The scheme is what is king there.

 

Talent is key.  Scheme can be used to augment or even unlock the talent, but some talent must be there to win.  OBJ is not a bad culture player.  Antonio Brown is different.  Beckham gets upset when they are losing and not getting him the ball.  The same way Brady gets upset when they are losing and he yells at his entire bench.  We need to stop giving certain players outburst labels and others totally different labels when they are the same exact thing.

 

/Rant

[chad72]

Coaching, QB play and trenches have always been the key to winning games in January and February, it will continue to be the same. You cannot win a SB without all of them contributing consistently in any run.

 

Yes, every once in a while, the talent of a few exceptional talents outside the above outshine the collective efforts of many and make the difference between winning and losing but most of the time, the coaching to make adjustments/not make mistakes gives most teams a fighting chance to win. The coaching takes the talents to the maximized level and good talent can remain not maximized with sub-par coaching around the league, IMO.

[richard pallo]

If the premise of the article is true then let's hope Ballard is able to trade Brissett  and get another pick to use in the upcoming draft.  

[ClaytonColt]

I agree in principle. Character trumps base talent.

 

However the premise that just because you're a top class talent then you are flawed characteristically doesn't always follow through. Some guys have elite talent and can be part of a winning culture.

[Fluke_33]

Listening to Funchess on JMV.  Definitely sounds like a good guy and a family man.

[WoolMagnet]

6 hours ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I concur very strongly with the idea that you can’t put a player in different situation and always expect the same results. I’d argue that this is universal to all sports.

 

It’s funny how we see how much is being invested in sports psychology by professional teams, yet we as fans, sometimes forget that players are just as human as us. Bad locker rooms, homesickness, bad life choices etc. can all massively derail a career.

 

A good example for me was Jerry Hughes. The Colts were criticised for trading him away as people only looked at the outcome. When you read his comments about not one, but two comepletly different FOs, it’s clear that for whatever reason he didn’t want to be in Indy full stop. A guy that unhappy is very unlikely to produce his best. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and move on from unresolvable situations.

Not just sports.

This has effects in any workplace  or organization 

[SteelCityColt]

4 minutes ago, WoolMagnet said:

Not just sports.

This has effects in any workplace  or organization 

 

Again I completely agree, why else do businesses spend so much money in the latest team building fads 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

30 minutes ago, Fluke_33 said:

Listening to Funchess on JMV.  Definitely sounds like a good guy and a family man.

His personality reminds me of Ebron. He seems to always have a smile on his face and he wants to win.

[King Colt]

Ballard has said culture is the goal. Look at teams like the Giants, Steelers and the Cowboys that have been wrapped up with nonsense personality problems. The players not involved in those love-hate battles claim is does not matter but only when on camera.

[LockeDown]

Jay Glazer on Colin Cowherd and both bragged on Chris Ballard for waiting out the chaos this week and biding his time for good deals.  Nice

[aaron11]

i think we need talent to win a super bowl, and that the patriots are just better than us right now.  

 

we have only managed to beat brady when we had a really good team our selves.  its ridiculous how conservative this fan base is sometimes

[Yoshinator]

I'm wondering how Ballard will do in this year's draft with later picks in each round. That's the main worry I have with being conservative in FA. Can Ballard repeat close to last year under harder circumstances? If he can, then I'll trust him 100%.

[r a y s k i]

6 hours ago, Rackeen305 said:

I dont trust your post. You dont know what you are talking about. Only CB does.

In Ballard we trust.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

4 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I'm wondering how Ballard will do in this year's draft with later picks in each round. That's the main worry I have with being conservative in FA. Can Ballard repeat close to last year under harder circumstances? If he can, then I'll trust him 100%.

We do have a early second round before we have our actual second round pick. I think it is from the jets. 

[Yoshinator]

Just now, Chloe6124 said:

We do have a early second round before we have our actual second round pick. I think it is from the jets. 

That's true. I hope that someone that Ballard covets falls to that pick. Personally, I'd love to trade that pick for a 2020 first round pick, and go berserk next year in the draft.

[r a y s k i]

11 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I'm wondering how Ballard will do in this year's draft with later picks in each round. That's the main worry I have with being conservative in FA. Can Ballard repeat close to last year under harder circumstances? If he can, then I'll trust him 100%.

Ballard is a great talent evaluator and has a strong record with drafting (with KC, CHicago etc) but unfortunately it's unrealistic to expect the same results as last year. I reckon we'll see a strong DL/OL draft in the first 2 rounds again. 

[aaron11]

what teams have won super bowls without talent?  i dont think there are any

 

i dont think Beckham is a big locker room problem either, he had a one game suspension for a personal foul penalty, but thats probably the worst thing hes done

[Yoshinator]

1 minute ago, rayski said:

Ballard is a great talent evaluator and has a strong record with drafting (with KC, CHicago etc) but unfortunately it's unrealistic to expect the same results as last year. I reckon we'll see a strong DL/OL draft in the first 2 rounds again. 

2018 was an outlier, I don't expect that to happen again. I'm hoping to hit on two of the first three picks, and two or three other picks. Also hope to obtain a couple picks for 2020 and continue the trend.

[r a y s k i]

6 hours ago, tikyle said:

I call nonsense.

 

New England is always what people point to but it's not the culture there that's the winning formula, it's the scheme.  The owner, HC and star QB were in a pissing match and none of mattered.  The owner frequents rub and tug spots before AFCCG's, doesn't matter.  They get guys who come in and flame out or don't pan out, doesn't matter.  The scheme is what is king there.

 

Talent is key.  Scheme can be used to augment or even unlock the talent, but some talent must be there to win.  OBJ is not a bad culture player.  Antonio Brown is different.  Beckham gets upset when they are losing and not getting him the ball.  The same way Brady gets upset when they are losing and he yells at his entire bench.  We need to stop giving certain players outburst labels and others totally different labels when they are the same exact thing.

 

/Rant

I disagree a bit. 

New England' scheme is that they don't depend on a scheme, can change it anytime, even during seasons.  All out air attack with Moss/Welker to a quick passing game to full on run first team. They willing to fit

their scheme into whatever it takes to win. It's a winning culture. They have key pieces who stick around for 4-5 six years, mostly drafted with toughness, smarts and character, Mayo-Hightower-Mccourty (loads of them are college captains as well) etc who are moulded into the Patriots way and anchor the team. Any new guys coming in, comment on how different their whole organisation is to the rest of the NFL. 

 

Talent is important(it's the NFL so most are pretty talented) but character and hungriness are the keys to me.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidching/2018/02/01/unheralded-factor-in-patriots-winning-culture-a-roster-loaded-with-college-captains/#4823ac8524fc

 

 

[aaron11]

2 minutes ago, rayski said:

I disagree a bit. 

New England' scheme is that they don't depend on a scheme, can change it anytime, even during seasons.  All out air attack with Moss/Welker to a quick passing game to full on run first team. They willing to fit

their scheme into whatever it takes to win. It's a winning culture. They have key pieces who stick around for 4-5 six years, mostly drafted with toughness, smarts and character, Mayo-Hightower-Mccourty (loads of them are college captains as well) etc who are moulded into the Patriots way and anchor the team. Any new guys coming in, comment on how different their whole organisation is to the rest of the NFL. 

 

Talent is important(it's the NFL so most are pretty talented) but character and hungriness are the keys to me.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidching/2018/02/01/unheralded-factor-in-patriots-winning-culture-a-roster-loaded-with-college-captains/#4823ac8524fc

 

 

i dont see the connection between scheme and character.  they have had murderers on the team, been caught cheating several times and the owner is facing charges now

 

brady and BB are great because they are smart, you dont have to be a great guy to run their schemes 

[jameszeigler834]

5 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

i dont see the connection between scheme and character.  they have had murderers on the team, been caught cheating several times and the owner is facing charges now

 

brady and BB are great because they are smart, you dont have to be a great guy to run their schemes 

They could probably send a fast food employee in at quarterback and still have success.

[jameszeigler834]

16 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

2018 was an outlier, I don't expect that to happen again. I'm hoping to hit on two of the first three picks, and two or three other picks. Also hope to obtain a couple picks for 2020 and continue the trend.

Will see who he does pickup between now and through the draft it better be good if he is so intent on building through just mainly drafting.

[EastStreet]

Pats have taken their chances with questionable guys. Key is, they typically get them cheap (because they are questionable), and then they manage them well. When it doesn't work out, they are quick to cut the cancer out. 

 

Culture has as much to do with the Coach's management style (owner's and general management too) as it does with the players you insert. Belichick doesn't put up with %. Did anyone think he and Moss would last 3 years? After his last season in MN before being traded to the Raiders, he stunk it up. Two years later, he stunk it up for the Raiders. He ended up having 3 very good years for the Pats, with minimal issue. He started to mouth off in Y4 (because they didn't extend him early), and got traded back to MN. He mouthed off there, and MN waived him.

 

In short, I don't mind taking a shot on a questionable guy. As long as we are getting a bargain or good value, and we make it clear that any nonsense won't be tolerated. That's all some guys need. Worked for Moss for 3 years. Then he reverted to prima donna and got the boot. But, they got 3 great years, and the culture didn't crash.