Le'Veon Bell

[richard pallo]

18 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Bell wants to be here, it is was obvious by his tweets and Luck is awesome. I doubt Ballard shells out the kind of cash he wants though. I am ok either way, Bell is a sensational talent but I would prefer a #2 WR. 

Bell does want to be here and he wants a longer contract than two years.  I can see his point and I agree with his stance.  If Mack doesn't have a strong second half or misses more games with injuries than I can see Ballard giving Bell a longer deal with a big guarantee.  The Steelers wouldn't give him the guaranteed money that was the issue.  If Mack doesn't live up to expectations this year I can easily see Bell coming here with Mack as his backup.  That would give us a solid RB group. 

[BOTT]

1 hour ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Jets.

 

But if Bell was smart, he would take what Ballard offers and become a Colt.

 

Then he can just hop onto Big Qs back and ride him into the endzone on every play! 

I'm predicting Ballard's offer will be zero

[richard pallo]

5 hours ago, BOTT said:

I'm predicting Ballard's offer will be zero

Unless the Colts make the playoffs or get close.  Then he's going to spend some cap money and Bell would be a prime target.  Another win today but nothing to write home about from Mack and a few more drops from Hines.  We shall see. 

[strt182]

I hate to beat a dead horse but I'm not sure if anybody else seen this.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/leveon-bell-can-just-imagine-playing-with-andrew-luck/ar-BBQ8AaY?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=SKY2DHP

[aaron11]

8 minutes ago, strt182 said:

I hate to beat a dead horse but I'm not sure if anybody else seen this.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/leveon-bell-can-just-imagine-playing-with-andrew-luck/ar-BBQ8AaY?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=SKY2DHP

he can be a colt if he really wants to.  accept a reasonable offer and we are off to the races 

[strt182]

1 minute ago, aaron11 said:

he can be a colt if he really wants to.  accept a reasonable offer and we are off to the races 

Yea i believe that also. If he comes here I'll get behind him ( as long as its a good deal) , If not on to the next one. 

[richard pallo]

14 minutes ago, strt182 said:

Yea i believe that also. If he comes here I'll get behind him ( as long as its a good deal) , If not on to the next one. 

If Ballard signs him it means both sides are happy with the contract.  

[Lucky Colts Fan]

2 hours ago, aaron11 said:

he can be a colt if he really wants to.  accept a reasonable offer and we are off to the races 

 

1 hour ago, strt182 said:

Yea i believe that also. If he comes here I'll get behind him ( as long as its a good deal) , If not on to the next one. 

 

1 hour ago, richard pallo said:

If Ballard signs him it means both sides are happy with the contract.  

 

Yeah there are boxes that need to be checked and a reasonable contract is one of them.  If Bell really wants to play with Luck in Reichs system, he'll take less money to be a Colt, cuz Ballard ain't breaking the bank for a used RB.  If it's really about the he'll probably sign with the Jets.

 

Another box he needs to check is passing the character test with Brian Decker, and I assume he would pass.  His teammates had nothing but good things to say about him until he wasn't on the field at the beginning of the season, then they got sour on him.

 

And he'd better be in shape!  If he's eating pizza, chicken wings and nachos, drinking beer and smokin weed, and watching football all weekend like the rest of us...  well, let's just say I couldn't go out and play 60 minutes of football right now! 

[John Waylon]

Don’t look now, but he’s at it again...

 

[Jackie Daytona]

On 11/18/2018 at 11:12 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Bell wants to be here, it is was obvious by his tweets and Luck is awesome. I doubt Ballard shells out the kind of cash he wants though. I am ok either way, Bell is a sensational talent but I would prefer a #2 WR. 

 

Bell pretty much IS a #2 WR..... while still playing RB.

[ColtsBlueFL]

24 minutes ago, Shafty138 said:

 

Bell pretty much IS a #2 WR..... while still playing RB.

 

Except... he can’t be both lined up as a RB threat and also a WR (or vice versa) at the same time.  

[richard pallo]

18 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Except... he can’t be both lined up as a RB threat and also a WR (or vice versa) at the same time.  

Except...he is a proven match up nightmare no matter where he lines up;  Running the ball, play fakes, in motion, in the slot, reverses.  So many ways to use him and make the opposition account for him at all times.  Therefore making our other weapons even more dangerous. 

[NewColtsFan]

On 11/18/2018 at 7:17 AM, oldunclemark said:

The NFL Network reported Sunday that LeVeon wants $17 mil for 5 years..

Does anybody think there s a team that will give him that with, lets say, $40 mil guaranteed.

 

I don't know who that team would be.

 

For whatever it’s worth, a few weeks ago, ESPN interviewed NFL execs about Bell. 

 

They predicted he’d ask for 16-17 per year with about 40-Plus million in guarantees.

 

But...

 

They also predicted he wouldn’t get many offers and that the best offer he’ll likely get is 4/60 with roughly half guaranteed.    So, $30 mill guaranteed.

 

They also predicted the deal may be announced as a bigger deal for PR’s sake, but ultimately be revealed to be smaller....   4/60 with 30g.

 

So, I’m not buying either the $40 mill guaranteed that people here think Bell will get, or that Ballard and Irsay will have much, if any,  interest at those prices. 

 

JMO.

[richard pallo]

22 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

For whatever it’s worth, a few weeks ago, ESPN interviewed NFL execs about Bell. 

 

They predicted he’d ask for 16-17 per year with about 40-Plus million in guarantees.

 

But...

 

They also predicted he wouldn’t get many offers and that the best offer he’ll likely get is 4/60 with roughly half guaranteed.    So, $30 mill guaranteed.

 

They also predicted the deal may be announced as a bigger deal for PR’s sake, but ultimately be revealed to be smaller....   4/60 with 30g.

 

So, I’m not buying either the $40 mill guaranteed that people here think Bell will get, or that Ballard and Irsay will have much, if any,  interest at those prices. 

 

JMO.

I think if Mack can't hold up well till the end of the season and hopefully into the playoffs then we will become a serious contender for Bell.   JMO. 

[Four2itus]

The man chose to sit out a season. An ENTIRE SEASON. Does that not scare the bejeesus out of some of you? He gave his team the financial finger!

 

 

[richard pallo]

38 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

The man chose to sit out a season. An ENTIRE SEASON. Does that not scare the bejeesus out of some of you? He gave his team the financial finger!

 

 

No it doesn't.  Bell did what he thought he had to do.  He will get paid at the end.  What he did was set a precedent that other players will follow.   It will most likely change the tag rules and the players will have more freedom.  He saved a year of punishment on his body and will come back ready to go just like Luck after a year off.  He saved his team 14m.  Hardly a financial finger.   Pittsburghs loss could be our gain.  That sounds pretty good to me. 

[Jackie Daytona]

6 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Except... he can’t be both lined up as a RB threat and also a WR (or vice versa) at the same time.  

 

No, I meant what I said..... he lines up at RB, and is just as much of a threat in the passing game lining up as a RB, as many WR's are..... so yeah, he effectively IS a RB and a WR at the same time as far as a D coordinator is concerned when gameplanning and making adjustments,  or assignments......

[ColtsBlueFL]

To me, Smith-Schuster and Brown are far and away much better receivers with staggeringly better production.  Bell’s receiving production is in the zip code of Eric Ebron IMO.

 

I know he is talented, but is demanding a premium.  Paying him and hoping he can even maintain that previous production is the gamble.  I guess people hope he will even get better and earn the pay day.

 

To me, it is like looking at buying this stock that has taken off and grown.  Now, when it is at its height, it is like seriously looking at finally buying it at that elevated price, just hoping it continues to go up even more and not fall off any.

 

I really wonder the ‘value’ GM’s have placed on Bell, assuming he can maintain his present production level...  we’ll see next spring.

[aaron11]

11 hours ago, Four2itus said:

The man chose to sit out a season. An ENTIRE SEASON. Does that not scare the bejeesus out of some of you? He gave his team the financial finger!

 

 

no it doesnt.  its not like they have to pay him when he sits either

[krunk]

I can't see Bell being here unless it's on a short term 1 or 2 year deal.   And I still don't know if I see it because I like what Mack brings to the table.

[Jackie Daytona]

30 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

To me, Smith-Schuster and Brown are far and away much better receivers with staggeringly better production.  Bell’s receiving production is in the zip code of Eric Ebron IMO.

 

 

He doesn't need to put up more production, in my mind, to be worthy of a pretty big payday.  The stat's below suppport the argument that he shouldn't get a Gurley sized contract, but considering another year of NFL contract inflation, and that he has a year of rest (if he kept himself in shape) that should mean he will benefit going forward from less miles on the tires.... and Bell will probably get a deal in that neighborhood.

 

Todd Gurley's stat line in 2017 that preceded his 4 yr, 57.5 Mill, 21.5 Mill Gtd. contract....

 

1305 rushing yards, 13 rushing TDs, 4.7 ypc.  64 Receptions, 788 yards, 6 TDs, 12.3 ypr.

 

Le'Veon Bell's stat line in 2017 that preceded a year away from a heavy workload.....

 

1291 rushing yards, 9 rushing TDs, 4.0 ypc.  85 Receptions, 655 yards, 2 TD's, 7.7 ypr.

 

 

[Jackie Daytona]

25 minutes ago, krunk said:

I can't see Bell being here unless it's on a short term 1 or 2 year deal.   And I still don't know if I see it because I like what Mack brings to the table.

 

Love Mack, my only issue with him, is that he brings that great skillset to the wrong table too much of the time..... the trainer's table.

[pgt_rob]

Marlon Mack needs to stay healthy or he will be moved down the chains eventually. I know it's impossible to know when you're going to get hurt but it's sadly the nature of the beast. I would love Leveon Bell but is the production going to be worth the money? Ballard is looking for best value.

[Superman]

14 hours ago, Four2itus said:

The man chose to sit out a season. An ENTIRE SEASON. Does that not scare the bejeesus out of some of you? He gave his team the financial finger!

 

Doesn't bother me at all. I think he played it wrong, but I get why he did it. Players have the right to decline the franchise tag, just don't sign it. 

 

But it should be a clear indication that he doesn't intend to take some below market, team-friendly contract offer just because he's enamored with Andrew Luck. I think the reason he has his eyes on the Colts in the first place is because he knows we have a huge amount of cap space, bottom line. 

[Four2itus]

39 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Doesn't bother me at all. I think he played it wrong, but I get why he did it. Players have the right to decline the franchise tag, just don't sign it. 

 

But it should be a clear indication that he doesn't intend to take some below market, team-friendly contract offer just because he's enamored with Andrew Luck. I think the reason he has his eyes on the Colts in the first place is because he knows we have a huge amount of cap space, bottom line. 

I agree that is doesn't bother me, but that is because he didn't do it to my team. I am just surprised at how many want him despite this. I would wager nearly every one who wants him would despise him for doing this to the Colts. 

 

And for clarity, I think this is an extreme action that not "any" RB would do. 

[Superman]

13 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

I agree that is doesn't bother me, but that is because he didn't do it to my team. I am just surprised at how many want him despite this. I would wager nearly every one who wants him would despise him for doing this to the Colts. 

 

And for clarity, I think this is an extreme action that not "any" RB would do. 

 

I agree, but that's part of the hypocrisy that comes with fandom. 

 

NFL fans regularly call the NFL unfair because players don't have guaranteed contracts, but when a player holds out for more guaranteed money, that player is selfish and greedy. If there's a lockout, the players are being greedy and don't care about the fans. Fans say the NFL doesn't care about player safety, but when rules are changed to promote player safety, they say the league is ruining the game.

 

I personally don't hold Bell's decision against him. I think teams abuse the franchise tag, and I think players who hold out are using the little leverage they have to take care of their own interests. It's a brutal sport, and very little is guaranteed, so I don't begrudge a player who has that little bit of leverage using it when he thinks it's in his best interests. Even if that player is on my team. I'm just a fan; it's his body and his earning potential. 

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Doesn't bother me at all. I think he played it wrong, but I get why he did it. Players have the right to decline the franchise tag, just don't sign it. 

 

But it should be a clear indication that he doesn't intend to take some below market, team-friendly contract offer just because he's enamored with Andrew Luck. I think the reason he has his eyes on the Colts in the first place is because he knows we have a huge amount of cap space, bottom line. 

I think there are a number of teams with enough cap space to make him happy.  But I think he feels his best fit is with Luck and our OL to win a championship or two.  I still think the way to secure his services is to offer him the most guaranteed money.  Deep down I think that's what he wants and who can blame him.  What does a high avg. annual salary mean if you can't collect it all?   I wonder if he would take 4yrs. 60m.  35m fully guaranteed.  I could see him being a Colt for that.  

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I think there are a number of teams with enough cap space to make him happy.  But I think he feels his best fit is with Luck and our OL to win a championship or two.  I still think the way to secure his services is to offer him the most guaranteed money.  Deep down I think that's what he wants and who can blame him.  What does a high avg. annual salary mean if you can't collect it all?   I wonder if he would take 4yrs. 60m.  35m fully guaranteed.  I could see him being a Colt for that.  

 

I can see him accepting that. I don't see the Colts offering that.

[aaron11]

20 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I can see him accepting that. I don't see the Colts offering that.

we do have a lot of cap space though.  i know CB wants to build from within, but we dont have that many guys to pay before this cap spending period is over

 

we may not make the biggest offer, but we could be the best team that makes an offer

[Lucky Colts Fan]

11 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

we do have a lot of cap space though.  i know CB wants to build from within, but we dont have that many guys to pay before this cap spending period is over

 

we may not make the biggest offer, but we could be the best team that makes an offer

 

If Ballard signs Bell, I'm all for it, but I have a hard time believing we're going to get our moneys' worth if we give Bell as much as he wants... 

[aaron11]

4 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

If Ballard signs Bell, I'm all for it, but I have a hard time believing we're going to get our moneys' worth if we give Bell as much as he wants... 

well he cant really hold out again,  if he does then hes not playing anymore

 

now a team like the jets might over pay and land him, but there is no guarantee they do that either.  i think he will probably get similar offers from everyone thats interested and go to the best team

[Lucky Colts Fan]

1 minute ago, aaron11 said:

well he cant really hold out again,  if he does then hes not playing anymore

 

now a team like the jets might over pay and land him, but there is no guarantee they do that either.  i think he will probably get similar offers from everyone thats interested and go to the best team

 

I was thinking more about his production.  I doubt he gets as many touches in our offense as he got in Pittsburgh.

 

I think he'd be good in our offense, but I doubt his production would justify his contract.

[King Colt]

Maybe

[ColtsBlueFL]

2 hours ago, aaron11 said:

we do have a lot of cap space though.  i know CB wants to build from within, but we dont have that many guys to pay before this cap spending period is over

 

we may not make the biggest offer, but we could be the best team that makes an offer

 

We don't know how Ballard is going to use the available cap.  But for the NFL minimum rule, here is what we do know-

 

It's not cap space, it's a percentage of the allocated cap space in cash, cumulative.  (cash spent, not cap hit)

 

It is set at 89% of the cap, an aggregate sum over a four year period, running from 2017 all the way through 2020  (thus still in year 2 of 4)

 

If there is a team penalized for missing the mark (has not been a single one, yet), it is only paying the difference (shortage) to the NFLPA who will then distribute the amount of the shortfall to all players on the roster during that time span

 

Colts were at 85.88% at the end of last year (2017)

 

So what is the difference in Cap and /Cash?  Say you sign a player for 5 million /year for 5 years along with a 20 million signing bonus guarantee.  For cap purposes, the bonus is broken up into 5 equal parts, so 5 million plus 4 million (20 / 5) = 9 million cap hit that year.  But for Cash spending, it is 5 million plus 20 million, or $25 million that counts toward that 89% that year, not just the $9 million. Because all 20 million is delivered (paid) in cash to the player that year.  But on the books it is amortized over 5 yearly installments (cap).

 

I don't think it will really be all that hard for the Colts to make the number, even forgoing making a massive FA run down the road.

 

 

[aaron11]

6 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

I don't think it will be all that hard for Colts to make the number even forgoing a massive FA run down the road.

 

 

they will make it work, with or without bell i agree with that.  there is plenty of room for him though, and not many in house guys to pay before 2020.

 

 

[Superman]

 

2 hours ago, aaron11 said:

we do have a lot of cap space though.  i know CB wants to build from within, but we dont have that many guys to pay before this cap spending period is over

 

we may not make the biggest offer, but we could be the best team that makes an offer

 

I get the attraction to Bell. He's really good, and we don't have a well-established performer at that position. Add in the facts that we have a ton of cap space and Bell is basically asking to come to Indy, and it seems like a good match.

 

But I think you and @richard pallo are fooling yourselves into believing that Ballard is going to make any noteworthy play for Bell. Set aside whether you think he should, and just think about what Ballard has said:

 

Quote

You’re never one player away – ever. That’s what happens. People get in panic mode and they think, ‘Man, we’re one player away,’ and you’re never one player away. You just keep building and adding pieces that have talent. … And you can’t be timid about playing your own guys. They’ve got to compete and they’ve got to earn it, but you can’t be timid about putting those (young) guys on the field and letting them play and learn from mistakes because that’s how they’re going to grow.

 

Quote

I don’t know any championship team who didn’t have a great locker room and grow together. It’s hard to just throw people into the locker room and expect a winner. It just doesn’t work that way.

 

Quote

 

Financial discipline in this league, you don’t see that like you used to. I think it’s a good thing to have. Because what happens is these guys are re-tooling the roster every two years. You are signing all these free agents and then two years from now, you are seeing them all get cut and then they are back on the street again.

 

We have to get some roster continuity with 10 to 12 players that are going to be Colts for a long time. Then you feel better about dipping into free agency and getting a guy. Not just good players, they need to be able to influence the locker room with their character. A culture needs to be built. A coach can do so much, but the players in that locker room build the culture that you want, with their work ethic, with the standards that they set. We have to get more players like that in our locker room.

 

 

Quote

 

I think research shows that big spenders in free agency rarely, and it’s hard for them to consistently, win. A lot of times what you see is that same team re-tooling again two years down the line. We are going to be prudent going forward. When you pay premium money for a player, which we are willing to do, that guy has to be a couple of things: No. 1, he has to be a big-time producer for you. No. 2, he has to have the character that he’s going to continue make that big paycheck but also earn that respect in the locker room through his work ethic and his character…

 

Every year is an opportunity. You know how precious these things are. You are trying to win every year. I know it’s not always popular when you don’t go out and sign a bunch of free agents. But we wanted to be selective. We’ve got to build up our young core of talent. We have to. It’s critical we do that. It’s an important draft for us. One, because we have 4 picks in the top 50 picks in the draft. But we also have 9 picks (this year) and 8 next year with the possibility of getting another comp pick. So that’s 18 picks in 2 years. We have to get some core players that are going to be Colts for a long time. We have to get guys that are going to grow up and play and get up to speed fast.

 

 

I mean, it's not hard to come away with the impression that Ballard isn't interested in breaking the bank for a player who just sat out a year, whose teammates called him out for not being reliable (which I disagree with, but it happened; he obviously had a negative impact on the locker room), and who has been suspended by the league twice.

 

I tend to avoid making definitive statements about future events, because no one can tell the future, but I have no problem saying this: Ballard isn't going to sign Le'Veon Bell. 

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

 

I get the attraction to Bell. He's really good, and we don't have a well-established performer at that position. Add in the facts that we have a ton of cap space and Bell is basically asking to come to Indy, and it seems like a good match.

 

But I think you and @richard pallo are fooling yourselves into believing that Ballard is going to make any noteworthy play for Bell. Set aside whether you think he should, and just think about what Ballard has said:

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, it's not hard to come away with the impression that Ballard isn't interested in breaking the bank for a player who just sat out a year, whose teammates called him out for not being reliable (which I disagree with, but it happened; he obviously had a negative impact on the locker room), and who has been suspended by the league twice.

 

I tend to avoid making definitive statements about future events, because no one can tell the future, but I have no problem saying this: Ballard isn't going to sign Le'Veon Bell. 

Ballard has said he is willing to pay premium money for a player but he must be a big time producer.  I think Bell fits that description pretty easily.  The second point he said revolves around the need to continue to earn that paycheck through his work ethic and character.  I have not read where he had a poor work ethic while on the Steelers.  I could be wrong but I have not seen that.  The previous year he was franchised but eventually reported and had another great year.  I never read anything about any of his teammates complaining about his effort or work ethic that year.  Franchise players holding out is not something new.  This year he said enough is enough.  They couldn't come to an agreement and he sat out the entire year.  I'm sure some players were disappointed but that was a choice he thought he needed to make.  He has had the earlier suspensions but we know Ballard is not afraid to give players another chance if he's convinced their problems are behind them.  You could almost say he does it frequently.  Look at Collins on the practice squad for now.  Not apples to apples but the same principle.  We really won't have a handle on this until the season is over.  So much can still happen.  But I have no problem saying I wouldn't take his signing entirely off the table at this date.  No one can tell the future.  

[jskinnz]

2 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Ballard has said he is willing to pay premium money for a player but he must be a big time producer.  I think Bell fits that description pretty easily.  The second point he said revolves around the need to continue to earn that paycheck through his work ethic and character.  I have not read where he had a poor work ethic while on the Steelers.  I could be wrong but I have not seen that.  The previous year he was franchised but eventually reported and had another great year.  I never read anything about any of his teammates complaining about his effort or work ethic that year.  Franchise players holding out is not something new.  This year he said enough is enough.  They couldn't come to an agreement and he sat out the entire year.  I'm sure some players were disappointed but that was a choice he thought he needed to make.  He has had the earlier suspensions but we know Ballard is not afraid to give players another chance if he's convinced their problems are behind them.  You could almost say he does it frequently.  Look at Collins on the practice squad for now.  Not apples to apples but the same principle.  We really won't have a handle on this until the season is over.  So much can still happen.  But I have no problem saying I wouldn't take his signing entirely off the table at this date.  No one can tell the future.  

 

I won't belabor the point because you know how I feel about this.  

 

But one thing - to the bolded.  The principle is not the same - not even in the same ballpark really - because they did not have to write the big check to Collins that they would to Bell. Collins is low risk/cost and high reward.  That risk with Bell is exponentially higher.

[gspdx]

I just don't see it if Bell still wants the kind of money that is being bounced around.  

 

1) If we were one player away from really competing for a SB and that one player was a running back then maybe.  But the reality is if a team is that good they can usually platoon RBs (the Pats come to mind) and get the job done.

2) Even with Bell the Steelers have not gone to the SB.  That isn't a team full of scrubs so it seems Bell isn't the guy that is going to carry a team to the SB.

3) Adding on number 2 I haven't seen a RB carry a team to a SB in how long?  Sure they are important but I would say solidifying the defense for us is much more important.  

4)We are going to have some guys come up in a couple of years that will require impressive contracts if we want to keep them and sinking that much money into one guy that is not a QB will make that much harder.

 

If he isn't willing to take less I just don't see Ballard going for it.  

[Superman]

42 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

We really won't have a handle on this until the season is over.

 

A lot of this is just differing opinions, but I'm singling this out because I don't understand what you think is going to change between now and the end of the season. We're talking about Ballard's fundamental beliefs, his core principles.

 

Every single one of our backs could abruptly retire the day before free agency starts, and I still don't think Ballard makes a play for Bell. It goes against everything he's told us he finds important when it comes to building a roster and a culture. From financial discipline to being selective to growing your team together to not being one player away -- he's not speaking in code here.