Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

[Cynjin]

If no cheating was found then why did the NFL competition committee issue this statement about the use of adhesive substances after the investigation:

 

"In order to ensure that products that may have a possible competitive effect are given appropriate review and testing, our office -- after consultation with the Competition Committee -- has advised all clubs that the use of towels or other products that contain any type of adhesive substance is now prohibited on game days until further notice."  http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/san-diego-chargers-2012-towel-violation-similar-to-patriots

The same way that the Pats were not cheating when they used the unusual formations that they used against Baltimore, but now the competition committee has said those formations are now illegal.

[PeterBowman]

how many rule changes and enforcement have been enacted because of something the Pats have done?

[dynasty13]

The same way that the Pats were not cheating when they used the unusual formations that they used against Baltimore, but now the competition committee has said those formations are now illegal.

 

If the competition committee changes a rule, that means there wasn't one in place at the time it was done and therefor is not 'cheating'.

[Gramz]

how many rule changes and enforcement have been enacted because of something the Pats have done?

I have asked this a few times. I don't think I ever got an answer.

[Gramz]

Bottom line. I believe ( notice I said I believe, so don't ask for a link) I believe most everyone, deep down, understands what went on here.

Doesn't matter that this particular infraction didn't happen, or more to the point, wasn't exposed before.

Goodell has really no choice but to enforce punishment and make an example here to send a message that cheating will not be tolerated by any team.

[amfootball]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2015/07/15/details-of-tom-bradys-potential-lawsuit-against-nfl-patriots-qb-could-possibly-start-week-1/

 

“If they get to federal court, the whole procedure, the question is whether it was arbitrary and capricious,” said Alan Milstein, the lawyer who represented Maurice Clarett in his fight against the NFL. “It seems fairly clear it was.

“The commissioner,  I thought, really made a poor choice in taking part – basically trying to become part of this arbitration. The best argument Brady has is that due process was lacking and the hearing was unfair. The best evidence is that the commissioner was part of this thing.”

 

The biggest point for the PA is the fact that Goodell delegated punishment to Vincent which violates the CBA, approved that punishment and then presided over arbitrator while claiming to be independent ... as well as the unprecedented punishment and no prior warning to Brady ...

[pgt_rob]

Bottom line. I believe ( notice I said I believe, so don't ask for a link) I believe most everyone, deep down, understands what went on here.

Doesn't matter that this particular infraction didn't happen, or more to the point, wasn't exposed before.

Goodell has really no choice but to enforce punishment and make an example here to send a message that cheating will not be tolerated by any team.

 

Yeah, just like OJ Simpson. His lawyers poked enough holes into everything to convince the jury of whatever they wanted.

 

After reading some of those text messages between the equipment guys, nothing will change my mind that they called him the deflator because he was deflating the footballs for Brady. The texts talking about how he must feel stressed getting it done and how he's not going to espn, yet. Bringing footballs and size 11 shoes for Brady to sign and put in his locker. Those are just some of the texts that they found. Can't wait to see more in court if they don't work out a deal by then.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Has any player ever in the history of football been suspended for being "generally aware" that another employee of the team violated a league rule.

 

For example was Montana suspended when the NFL found out that his oline were using silicone on their jerseys?

 

If you can find me a player that was suspended for being generally aware that the staff, coaches, players around him violated a rule, then I am all ears.  And you and I both know that there are several hundred/thousand of league violation in the last 40 or so years of football, but now the NFL decides to break precedent? 

 

There is no precedent for what Brady did, he is the first and thus is setting precedent.  Montana could not care what his o line uses on his jersey... just block the guy in front of him. No link can be drawn.  In Brady's case it can.

 

Essentially, nobody on the Patriots team cares one iota about the footballs, except one guy.  That guy, Tom Brady, along with Peyton Manning, petitioned the league in 2006 to get full control on how to modify and manipulate the footballs a full week before use in a the game.  They got well over 20 QB's sign and fax their petition in short order.  Because the QB is obsessed with its feel and how it is prepared.  Not the O line, not the Fee safety, not the ball boy. Only the QB, and thus the equipment manager.  And the Equipment Manager acquiesces to the QB's wishes, at all times.  Nobody alters the QB's footballs without suffering the wrath of the teams starting QB.  Fact. Nobody alters preparation method, nor air pressure from the QB's desired legal setting. Fact.  Here's a fantastic read on the whole situation, from ESPN senior writer and Patriot sympathizer Jackie MacMullen-

 

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12837630/tom-brady-want-mulligan

 

And the extent to which QB's obsess over the footballs, from the year it was first allowed-

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/sports/football/03football.html?_r=0

 

And of course Brady admitting he likes an under inflated football-

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24980832/tom-brady-in-2011-i-like-deflated-footballs

 

There's no other previous case where so much points right back at the Player, as this one does.  The NFL has a ton of extremely smart lawyers, and prepared hundreds of pages of documents on this case. They have proof and evidence I might not even knew existed.  Jeffrey Kessler is incredible attorney, but he is not invincible.  He's lost to the NFL before, and most of his wins came before Judge Doty, who is no longer in the NFLPA's back pocket.

 

http://www.scoopnest.com/user/BenVolin/599730807645839360

 

The NFL is pursuing this because the result Brady wants (full exonerated) is not a worthy settlement.  The fact their lawsuit was prepared and filed the day Goodell released his ruling on the appeal sends the message, not only are they going to fight, they will use any tactic to do so.  Their preemptive filing is used in high stakes litigious cases where it is known the Plaintiff will contest and file in a 'friendly' venue.  I do not know the outcome, but it is hard to see where Brady is every cleared of any or all knowledge that violations of competitive balance occurred with his footballs.  And if Kessler gets it removed via technicalities, there's no way in the world anyone will believe that proves Brady's innocence.  Not heeding Jackie MacMullen's advice in an article above put this where it is, a lose - lose situation.  Yes, one side will have some sort of victory, but not really.  It will be a shallow one, on either side.

 

But because of it, we have the Patriots, once again, cause an overreaction by the league and a massive rules change for the following football season.  How many times has that (or created an Emphasis of the Rule mandate) happened now?  Might be worth checking in to at some point.

 

EDIT: LOL, I see many others just above had the same question!!

[IndyD4U]

Since we're link happy in here, here is something to chew on

 

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13332578/new-england-patriots-quarterback-tom-brady-nflpa-likely-come-short-court-challenge-roger-goodell-decision?ex_cid=espnFB

[ColtsBlueFL]

If the competition committee changes a rule, that means there wasn't one in place at the time it was done and therefor is not 'cheating'.

 

Technically true.  But what it really says is, that a team found a loophole that allows them to 'skirt' the intention of the rule (violating the Spirit and Intent, which Pats fans has said doesn't exist).  Thus the team found a way to break the rule without actually violating the letter of the law.  So we will now tighten up the letter of the law and close the loophole.

 

Then the Patriots trot off to find the next loophole...  and exploit it.

[ViriLudant]

Nope, the NFL wasn't after Brady at all .

http://media.weei.com/device/mobile/a/107870966/mike-kensil-was-the-leak-to-chris-mortensen-7-31-15.htm

Nope, not at all.

An NFL VP deliberately lied to Mortensen, but nope, no witch hunt.

So much for those of you convinced that the NFL didn't lie to fuel outrage.

[dynasty13]

Technically true.  But what it really says is, that a team found a loophole that allows them to 'skirt' the intention of the rule (violating the Spirit and Intent, which Pats fans has said doesn't exist).  Thus the team found a way to break the rule without actually violating the letter of the law.  So we will now tighten up the letter of the law and close the loophole.

 

Then the Patriots trot off to find the next loophole...  and exploit it.

 

"Technically true".

 

That's it then, that's all that needs to be said. It wasn't cheating.

 

Think of it this way: The infamous 'pick' plays that hardly ever get called, some teams have become exceedingly good at 'exploiting' that rule over the years, using it on just about every passing play. If all of a sudden a bunch of teams started to complain that the Broncos use pick plays and the competition committee decides to put a point of emphasis on calling it next season, does that mean the Broncos cheated?

 

No Of course not. So whenever I hear people say 'oh the Patriots cheated by holding our receivers' or 'oh the Patriots cheated with the eligible receiver thing' it's pretty disingenuous. There are enough other situations with this team that you can point to and criticize...there shouldn't be a need to make others up.

[ViriLudant]

Brady never claimed that he likes balls that are under the legal limit. Stop this lying. Brady has said elsewhere that he liked the ball at the low end of the legal limit.

[Cynjin]

If the competition committee changes a rule, that means there wasn't one in place at the time it was done and therefor is not 'cheating'.

Yes that is correct. What is your point?

[dw49]

The issue here though is this is where the league's case is the weakest as they have zero proof that Brady every told his guys to deflate the balls. This is why the league has made such a big deal about his phone after the appeal even though Wells never asked for the phone at the investigation and Brady did provide its records at the appeal.

 

 

 

Kind of like this AM. I'm fighting with my wife , all the money is in her name , I have a young girlfriend and two insurance policies on my wife. She wakes up with 2 bullets in her head and I was 150 miles away visiting my mother. They have evidence that it was a mob for hire hit , but can never find the guy that was hired. So according to you I walk. The report believes that the air was taken out in the bathroom that had no place for the guy to pee. He said he had to pee. It's not a reach at all to say Brady knew what was happening to the footballs. You people like to pick little specs out of this , make it stand alone and attack it. That's what Yehoodi did and it's childlike . I misty just sit back and watch you guys should ridiculous with all the "kraft is mad stuff" and "now we're going to get them." However when a smart guy tries to pull the wool over somebody's head . I'll step in.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Nope, the NFL wasn't after Brady at all .

http://media.weei.com/device/mobile/a/107870966/mike-kensil-was-the-leak-to-chris-mortensen-7-31-15.htm

Nope, not at all.

An NFL VP deliberately lied to Mortensen, but nope, no witch hunt.

So much for those of you convinced that the NFL didn't lie to fuel outrage.

 

Radio heads believes Kensil leaked it?  Can you post their proof?

 

Dean Blandino personally went down to Walt Anderson and told him to be sure the footballs were all checked and within the 12.5 - 13.5 psi range, according to policy in place, the psi were never documented on paper, just the balls marked once tested and in compliance.  Now they are to be protected in officials custody 10 minutes before kickoff where they escort the ball boy carrying the footballs down to the field. So this guy must think the league KNEW McNally would STEAL the footballs and tamper with them, in order for their Sting to work, they knew all of this this would go down in just that way, yes?  SMH...

 

Radio heads mad at Morty....  Says Kraft and Brady are too.

 

This is just local radio talk fluff that appeals to the local crowd.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Brady never claimed that he likes balls that are under the legal limit. Stop this lying. Brady has said elsewhere that he liked the ball at the low end of the legal limit.

 

Not lying.  Tom sets them at lower limit. (12.5 psi, and you admit this) OK. Then Gronk spikes them and they are deflated more (now below legal limit).  He likes the deflated (illegal) ball!

 

Tom's words-

 

"When Gronk scores -- it was like his eighth touchdown of the year -- he spikes the ball and he deflates the ball. I love that, because I like the deflated ball. But I feel bad for that football, because he puts everything he can into those spikes."

[amfootball]

 

Nope, the NFL wasn't after Brady at all .

http://media.weei.com/device/mobile/a/107870966/mike-kensil-was-the-leak-to-chris-mortensen-7-31-15.htm

Nope, not at all.

An NFL VP deliberately lied to Mortensen, but nope, no witch hunt.

So much for those of you convinced that the NFL didn't lie to fuel outrage.

This whole thing is so disgusting. Did you read where Mort said he hopes Brady wins the court case? Guilty conscience maybe?

[Superman]

I love how when one guy says something that Pats fans like, it suddenly becomes fact.

[jvan1973]

No he wasn't. He said they presented a compelling case at the appeal but as you can see from his comments now he is very happy to have a neutral venue/judge. The appeal was a sham once Roger assigned himself as the judge. Kessler knew that.

yeah, he wanted a neutral judge so bad they filed their suit in Minnesota. Yeah, neutrality is exactly what they are looking for. give me a break

[pgt_rob]

I love how when one guy says something that Pats fans like, it suddenly becomes fact.

 

[ColtsBlueFL]

 

 

This whole thing is so disgusting. Did you read where Mort said he hopes Brady wins the court case? Guilty conscience maybe?

 

 

This is a witch hunt on Kensil, where Mort is collateral damage because he was fed inadvertent information very early in the whole scenario.

 

This is the new nature of reporting these time in the information age.  Get it first (not necessarily right).  :-(

[OffensivelyPC]

I love how when one guy says something that Pats fans like, it suddenly becomes fact.

I don't get how people have such a problem with this generally aware standard.  He was generally aware of improper activities that were more likely than not done on his direction.  I understand that it's not "technically" a standard, but when all of the evidence is within the possession of the accused, and the accused isn't fully forthcoming with the evidence, you can only say what the evidence tells you.  

[jvan1973]

Nope, the NFL wasn't after Brady at all .

http://media.weei.com/device/mobile/a/107870966/mike-kensil-was-the-leak-to-chris-mortensen-7-31-15.htm

Nope, not at all.

An NFL VP deliberately lied to Mortensen, but nope, no witch hunt.

So much for those of you convinced that the NFL didn't lie to fuel outrage.

You're right, they weren't. I'm glad you agree

[Superman]

yeah, he wanted a neutral judge so bad they filed their suit in Minnesota. Yeah, neutrality is exactly what they are looking for. give me a break

 

As the Minnesota judge wrote, there's no jurisdictional reason for them to have filed in Minnesota.

[dw49]

Brady never claimed that he likes balls that are under the legal limit. Stop this lying. Brady has said elsewhere that he liked the ball at the low end of the legal limit.

 

 

You don't have a monopoly on lying.

[jvan1973]

As the Minnesota judge wrote, there's no jurisdictional reason for them to have filed in Minnesota.

Yeah, exactly. They were hoping for Doty again. The last thing they were looking for was a neutral judge

[ColtsBlueFL]

I don't get how people have such a problem with this generally aware standard.  He was generally aware of improper activities that were more likely than not done on his direction.  I understand that it's not "technically" a standard, but when all of the evidence is within the possession of the accused, and the accused isn't fully forthcoming with the evidence, you can only say what the evidence tells you.  

 

Because when it is them, or a party they are interested in that is under the gun, they feel only proof beyond any shadow of a doubt, and the smoking gun too, will do. :-(

 

This is fine on criminal cases, especially ones where the punishment is lethal and irreversible in case it was later found wrong.  But all across Business and industry, binding arbitration agreements abound.  As it does in the NFL.  And Federal judges do not want to fill up their dockets with (re) hearing cases already awarded in arbitration.  And the Supreme court has at least three rulings essentially saying 'do not mess with arbitration proceedings or awards.'

 

Interesting to see this one play out.

[Bad Morty]

I love how when one guy says something that Pats fans like, it suddenly becomes fact.

if it proved to be true that the guy who was in charge of conducting whatever this halftime measurement was then went and deliberately leaked lies about it, would it change your opinion of what went on here? Because frankly, if the league is shown to have allowed the first half of that game to potentially be played with deflated footballs so that they could catch the Patriots in the act of doing something, I'd be pretty livid as a Colts fan. It would also make me think that the "integrity" concerns over air pressure are contrived.

[aaron11]

I thought von miller was caught getting a urine sample from a supplier that gave a sample that was not his?

nope he spilled it at the testing center i believe.  its an interesting comparison.  there was never any proof that von was on drugs, but he was suspended over obstruction.  as for brady, even if the phone was not critical to the investigation, it was requested but not handed over

 

this could be taken as a bit of a power trip on RJs part, in that its you must fully comply with an investigation or risk suspension.  even if evidence is shaky at best

 

i think thats the point though.  compliance is not optional

[dynasty13]

I love how when one guy says something that Pats fans like, it suddenly becomes fact.

 

It has worked the same way on the other side since the beginning as well.

[SteelCityColt]

This is a witch hunt on Kensil, where Mort is collateral damage because he was fed inadvertent information very early in the whole scenario.

 

This is the new nature of reporting these time in the information age.  Get it first (not necessarily right).  :-(

 

Also, it doesn't matter if what you're saying is completely and utterly a lie as long as you shout it loud enough*

 

*See Skip Bayless

[dynasty13]

Also, it doesn't matter if what you're saying is completely and utterly a lie as long as you shout it loud enough*

 

*See Skip Bayless

 

Yeah this has the potential to get even uglier...

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/31/mortensen-pulls-plug-on-weei-appearance/

 

Not a good look for the NFL is this is true...and it would lend some credibility to Patriots' fans complaints since the beginning of how this all went down.

[ColtRider]

Not lying.  Tom sets them at lower limit. (12.5 psi, and you admit this) OK. Then Gronk spikes them and they are deflated more (now below legal limit).  He likes the deflated (illegal) ball!

 

Tom's words-

 

"When Gronk scores -- it was like his eighth touchdown of the year -- he spikes the ball and he deflates the ball. I love that, because I like the deflated ball. But I feel bad for that football, because he puts everything he can into those spikes."

Freudian Slip! (and there's no question mark here)

[Cynjin]

Yeah this has the potential to get even uglier...

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/31/mortensen-pulls-plug-on-weei-appearance/

 

Not a good look for the NFL is this is true...and it would lend some credibility to Patriots' fans complaints since the beginning of how this all went down.

How is an ESPN personality not doing an interview with a Boston radio station "not a good look for the NFL"?

[dynasty13]

How is an ESPN personality not doing an interview with a Boston radio station "not a good look for the NFL"?

 

Ignore the first half...but it's not a good look for the NFL if Kensil intentionally provided Mortensen with the wrong information that started to write the narrative right from the beginning.

[AndreRison]

Ignore the first half...but it's not a good look for the NFL if Kensil intentionally provided Mortensen with the wrong information that started to write the narrative right from the beginning.

So the deflator took the balls into bathroom, but Mortenson was given the wrong info? I don't get it...Is McNally available for questioning now, and the bathroom story a hoax?

[amfootball]

Ignore the first half...but it's not a good look for the NFL if Kensil intentionally provided Mortensen with the wrong information that started to write the narrative right from the beginning.

I think this thing is about to get even uglier. Did you read Kessler's complaint? Good glory. He tore the commish and league apart. So many details in there that no one knew like Pash editing the Wells Report before it became public. I believe Kessler said this was a new low even for the league. LOL.

[Bad Morty]

I think this thing is about to get even uglier. Did you read Kessler's complaint? Good glory. He tore the commish and league apart. So many details in there that no one knew like Pash editing the Wells Report before it became public. I believe Kessler said this was a new low even for the league. LOL.

I saw this yesterday...I can't believe that isn't a bigger story. The league is standing on the "independence" of the Wells Report, yet the league themselves made edits to the report before it was finalized?! That reads like a North Korean Courtroom case.

[amfootball]

I saw this yesterday...I can't believe that isn't a bigger story. The league is standing on the "independence" of the Wells Report, yet the league themselves made edits to the report before it was finalized?! That reads like a North Korean Courtroom case.

yeah, it is not bigger because it does not support the Pats guilt. Have you read Sally Jenkins piece from yesterday? Best take on this yet. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-nfls-basic-due-process-is-the-real-issue-in-the-deflategate-controversy/2015/07/30/ebda3b02-3666-11e5-9d0f-7865a67390ee_story.html

 

She quotes John Dowd, the special counsel who conducted Major League Baseball’s investigation into Pete Rose. He says the following "Dowd finds the abuse of process in DeflateGate to be the real scandal. “I still don’t know what this is about. . . . Like ‘Seinfeld,’ this is about nothing,” he said in an e-mail. He called Goodell’s ruling against Brady based on a sudden issue over Brady’s cellphone “an ambush” and added, “The entire NFL disciplinary process lacks integrity and fairness.”