Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

[weslo1812]

Nothing is a sure thing either way. Brady has a very good case. But who knows? None of us are lawyers and the media people and so called legal analysts have been wrong at just about every turn. And Brady and the PA are not arguing about the CBA but the violation of the CBA by the commissioner as well as other league precedents that he has made up as he has gone along, i.e. equating an equipment violation to PED use. So there is that as well to factor as well. Due process was sorely lacking here.

I do think this judge is doing an outstanding job with forcing the two sides to talk and reach a settlement. He is also pressuring as well as he urges for the settlement with the potential for the appeal records to be released. I really do hope cooler minds prevail and a settlement is reached but there is a part of me that would also love to see Goodell have to testify as well. I od think Kraft and the other owners are behind this thing getting solved before the season starts but I don't have my hopes up just yet ...

A few more quotes for you from Goodell report where he clearly states and defends his actioning.

"In the CBA prescribed standard itself, each player "recognizes the detriment to the league and professional football that would result from impairment of public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of NFL games or the integrity and good character NFL players." Such conduct includes "any.... form of conduct reasonably judged by the league commissioner to be detrimental to the league or professional football."

"There should be no question in anyone's mind that active obstruction of a conduct detrimental investigation may and will itself be deemed conduct detrimental and subject to discipline, as the standard player contract provides, by fine in a reasonable amount, by suspension for a period of certain or indefinitely, or termination of the player contract."

The commissioner had full rights to make the call that was made hand out the punishment that was handed out. He clearly states and shows that. If you Pats fans can't see it, that's your own ignorance and therfore your own problem.

[weslo1812]

This paragraph from your linked Rolling Stone Magazine story is more than a bit over the top AMF:

"Worse, the Wells Report – which, astoundingly, was three times longer than the report on Ray Rice knocking his fiancée out – then concluded that there was no direct evidence of Brady's cheating, after Ted Wells stated that Brady answered every question put to him and provided "substantial cooperation." Attorney, sometime-sportswriter and avowed Houston Texans fan Steph Stradley has devoted months to aggregating all the ways in which the prosecutorial presentation of the "independent" report and Goodell's judgments and assertions based on it can be torn into tissue paper. Further, Goodell's leaning on Brady's cellphone as evidence of some sinister obstruction of the investigation contradicts Wells' own disinterest in physically obtaining the phone and just basic common sense. On the latter, the NFL had access to the phones of the equipment personnel Brady supposedly conspired with. Have you ever gotten a text from someone? Have you noticed that their words then show up on your phone?"

How many times must NE fans be reminded of this. [Not all but many] that beyond a reasonable doubt is not the legal standard here. More probable than not is due to Spy Gate. If "substantial cooperation" was indeed utilized by Brady with Mr. Wells why did Troy Vincent recommend an additional suspension after reading the Wells Report then? I'm get sick & tired of this misguided notion that since Ted Wells had text messages from the deflator Brady is somehow off the hook for providing any evidence on his end confirming the actual text messaging interaction between the other 2 equipment managers for NE. You promised to comply Tom don't throw attitude & legal jargon my way. Just shut up & comply. Thank you.

Bingo CC1! Brady couldn't have ended all this nonsense at the 1st conference but he chose not to. He gave the scandal legs not Goodell, not the refs, not the Colts, & not Ted Wells or Troy Vincent.

It astounds me that no NE fan yet has said "You know Brady put his own behind in hot water & he created his own nightmare here."

To back up your point about the information and text messages,

Goodell states: "Asside from the fact that, under Article 46, section 2 (f) of the CBA, such information could and should have been provided long before the hearing."

[ViriLudant]

Oh this has turned into a *ing contest by both sides. If it is found out that a high ranking official of the NFL purposely leaked false information to the press then he should be fired. That does not take away from the other evidence and the I don't have to cooperate with this attitude of the Patriots as a whole.

But if a high level official did leak such information, he did so with Goodell's backing.

Remember, this was a sting operation against the Patriots. Never before has a team not been warned to do something , with the NFL then launching a sting investigation MIDGAME.

Colt fans, think about it: if the NFL head office thought that the Patriots were cheating, then they ALLOWED THEM

TO during the first half! Instead of sending a memo like they normally would, they decided to launch a sting operation.

If you still can't see the blatant bias here, it's not worth discussing anymore.

[ViriLudant]

Well damn, after reading that and all the other links u and ViriLudant have posted I have done a complete about face and now believe everything the pats organization has stated from the jump.

U guys realize that hardly anyone is reading your links? I'll bet some links have gone completely unread. I think everyone has formed their opinion at this point and it's kind of disturbing the lengths And amount of time y'all are putting in to convince people otherwise.

I think that it's realatively disturbing how much effort and time you guys have devoted into convincing a board of colts fans of the patriots innocence. I think that unfortunately it could serve as a metaphor for your life or outside persona, and I think it's something that you really need to explore in your free time And may quite possibly need professional help to overcome.

I am not flaming I am being seirous. The amount of delusion and paranoia that has surfaced in your guys posts is frightening and I am realatively concerned. I'm not even talking about the deniAl of that u all have over the situation, but the absurdity in your thought process that makes u think u are going to change people's minds here. Try to have a nice couple weeks over the course of the time leading up to the hearing. May I recommend Valium and clonidine?

The fact that you don't read the links simply demonstrated that you and others are ESPN lemmings. That's what is proven. There are hard facts in the links we posted.

But no, you'd rather pull the wool over your own eyes and scream "LALALALALALALALALALALALA!!!! BRADY IS TEH DEBIL!!! We now always believe Goodell, even though we hated him previously!!!!"

[Cynjin]

But if a high level official did leak such information, he did so with Goodell's backing.

Remember, this was a sting operation against the Patriots. Never before has a team not been warned to do something , with the NFL then launching a sting investigation MIDGAME.

Colt fans, think about it: if the NFL head office thought that the Patriots were cheating, then they ALLOWED THEM

TO during the first half! Instead of sending a memo like they normally would, they decided to launch a sting operation.

If you still can't see the blatant bias here, it's not worth discussing anymore.

 

You are completely speculating on Goodell, you really have no idea.  Kensil(Sp?) could have done it on his own, if he dislikes the Pats as much as you Pats fans say he does.

 

No this was not a "sting operation", stop acting like everyone is out to get the Pats.

 

It is not the duty of the NFL to warn teams not to cheat, its just not.

 

As far as blatant bias, go look in the mirror.

[Bubbz]

You can always choose to not click on the thread ... and I am not sure why it would surprise you that Pats fans are here with a thread about their team and QB that was started by a Colts fan ...

Oh no, the thread doesn't bother me at all. I get a lot of entertainment value from reading it. I think it's funny the stuff u guys post. Disturbing, but funny

[jabbanobadda]

But if a high level official did leak such information, he did so with Goodell's backing.

Remember, this was a sting operation against the Patriots. Never before has a team not been warned to do something , with the NFL then launching a sting investigation MIDGAME.

Colt fans, think about it: if the NFL head office thought that the Patriots were cheating, then they ALLOWED THEM

TO during the first half! Instead of sending a memo like they normally would, they decided to launch a sting operation.

If you still can't see the blatant bias here, it's not worth discussing anymore.

Deflection much? Just another Pats fan blaming the league. If there was a sting...why would that be? Would it be because someone was doing something, i dont know, like cheating? Hmmm.

"Waaahh, it's your fault we cheated, 'cause you tried to catch us...waahhh!"

*In case you were wondering, Waaahh is the sound a baby makes when they cry.*

[Superman]

We disagree on whether or not the numbers exonerate the Pats, and you have to acknowledge that there are many many people who know a lot more about science than you or I do who believe the actual PSI numbers DO exonerate them. But that aside, let's focus on "when the authorities are investigating someone for potential charges, they don't share their information with them"....This describes the relationship between the police and suspected criminals. Is that the relationship that an NFL team and the NFL league office should have with one another? They are supposed to be partners, aren't they? And you are ignoring the fact that the Patriots weren't actually looking for information to be shared...they were looking for FALSE information to STOP being shared.

 

There's an underlying narrative starting to emerge here that given Goodell's history shouldn't be dismissed out of hand...and that is that some higher ups in the league office with an axe to grind against the Patriots (i.e. Kensil) set out to trap the Patriots and catch them red-handed at something. Then when it backfired on them and they didn't get the results they were expecting, they went into cover up and spin mode and here we are.These emails and the smoke that's building around Kensil as the source of Mort's original report paint a pretty ugly picture of the league in all this.

 

1) Even if the numbers can be entirely explained by Ideal Gas Law -- and experts disagree, so there's no surprise that you and I disagree -- that doesn't mean the Patriots are exonerated. There still were activities that were against the rules, like taking the footballs from the locker room and going into the restroom, and the communications between Jastremski and McNally paint a picture. 

 

2) I'm not trying to paint a picture of a criminal investigation. I'm saying that as a matter of principle, when there is an investigation, the party being investigated isn't given access to all the information the investigators have. And since the Patriots were being investigated for wrongdoing, whether it happened or not, it's logical that the league wouldn't be sharing information with them. The relationship, as it pertains to the investigation, wasn't one of partners, nor should it have been.

 

3) The Patriots emails clearly asked for the league to release the PSI numbers. Nay, demanded. That's more than just 'stop leaking info.' It's 'let us clear our name now.' And that's just not how it works, no matter who it is being investigated. When Mueller was investigating the league office in association with the Ray Rice situation and whether anyone had seen the tapes, despite all the leaks and media reports that didn't wind up being accurate, the league wasn't releasing information along the way to clear anyone's name. Goodell made his statements, then they waited for the report.

 

4) As to this idea that there was a great conspiracy to frame the Patriots, we'll just never agree on that. Nor has anyone painted a realistic picture of why anyone in the league would want to undermine the Patriots' standing. Nothing more than unverified reports has suggested that Kensil or any other higher up in the league was the source of the leak.

[Bobbycovert]

Well damn, after reading that and all the other links u and ViriLudant have posted I have done a complete about face and now believe everything the pats organization has stated from the jump.

U guys realize that hardly anyone is reading your links? I'll bet some links have gone completely unread.I think everyone has formed their opinion  at this point and it's kind of disturbing the lengths And amount of time y'all are putting in to convince people otherwise.

I think that it's realatively disturbing how much effort and time you guys have devoted into convincing a board of colts fans of the patriots innocence. I think that unfortunately it could serve as a metaphor for your life or outside persona, and I think it's something that you really need to explore in your free time And may quite possibly need professional help to overcome.

I am not flaming I am being seirous. The amount of delusion and paranoia that has surfaced in your guys posts is frightening and I am realatively concerned. I'm not even talking about the deniAl of that u all have over the situation, but the absurdity in your thought process that makes u think u are going to change people's minds here. Try to have a nice couple weeks over the course of the time leading up to the hearing. May I recommend Valium and clonidine?

 

The bolded above is the problem actually.  

 

With regard to this whole mess, Brady and the Patriots have done some things that look suspicious but those things pale in comparison to the NFL's incompetent smear campaign designed to pander to the rubes (present company included).  I'm not going to bother linking articles or discussing the situation objectively, this isn't really the place for that obviously.   

[NewColtsFan]

(WARNING:   This post is extremely long.   I've tried to sum-up the case and demonstrate how hard it is to believe Tom Brady and the Patriots are innocent as they claim.   It's a very, very long post.    Read at your convenience.)

 

 

 

In order for a fan (outside of New England) to believe that Tom Brady and the Pats are Snow White innocent and that the NFL is out to prove them guilty and have bungled the case from the get-go,  here's what you'd have to disbelieve or dismiss outright......

 

 

-- You'd have to dismiss that when the Colts intercepted Brady back in the November game in Indy,  the players thought the ball was soft and gave it to the equipment staff.    They tested the balls back then and they were found to be BELOW the legal limit.  When the equipment staff notified Grigson they said the view among staffs around the NFL was that NE played fast and loose with the rules.     That's how ALL OF THIS got started.   The Colts notified the NFL back then.   This did NOT start at the AFCCG.

 

-- You'd have to dismiss that the balls were tested prior to the AFCCG and put into proper compliance,  yet the Pats equipment guy disappears for roughly 70-100 seconds.   I read this week that the NE franchise admits the guy was gone with the ball long enough to lower the pressure in the balls.     But you'd have to believe he didn't do anything illegal,  that he went to the bathroom to do his personal business.    A pure coincidence,  even though he's not supposed to take the balls to the bathroom with him.

 

-- You'd have to dismiss that the balls were re-tested at half and 11 of the 12 were found to be below legal limits.   The fact that they weren't all 2 pounds below the limit is meaningless.   They were below.   While the Colts' balls (4) were all legal.

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that the NE franchise was uncooperative.   They stopped the NFL from doing more interviews with the two equipment men.   The Patriots felt they had cooperated enough and felt another round of interviews was excessive.   Except it's not the Patriots who get to determine that.   The NFL gets to decide.   And this came after NE publicly expressed they'd cooperate fully.

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that Robert Kraft, perhaps the most powerful owner of all 32, publicly called out the NFL and said he'd expect an apology unless the NFL had "incontrovertible proof of wrong doing."   Except he knows full well that "incontrovertible proof" is NOT the NFL's legal standard.    The NFL's standard has always been a much lower one.   More likely than not.   The NFL does NOT have subpoena power.   They can't demand things.   But if accused don't want to cooperate,  the NFL can and will factor a lack of cooperation into their rulings.

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that Tom Brady said he couldn't remember the name of one of the equipment guys.  And he said he hadn't talked to them in roughly 6 months.   Yet, the day AFTER the AFCCG,  he made roughly 6 calls to one (both?) of the guys lasting a total of nearly one hour.     That's all innocent?     Seriously?

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that TB wouldn't let his own agent/lawyer take out the texts to submit to the NFL.   The NFL NEVER asked for Brady's phone.   A claim that continued to surface here on this website for months and months.   Brady never had to turn in his phone.   The NFL even said they don't have to be the ones to examine the text records.   They'd be satisfied if Brady's lawyer did that.    The NFL would trust Brady's representative to be honest.    Yet,  even THAT wasn't enough.

 

-- You'd have to ignore that Brady's phone was requested early in the process.   It was destroyed before he testified in March.  But he didn't mention that.  And it wasn't until FIVE DAYS before the June appeal that Brady's reps alerted the NFL that the phone was destroyed months prior.     A matter of routine,  they claimed,  and NOT a cover-up.   Except they also admitted (in one story I read)  that Brady's phone from late 2014,  the phone PRIOR to the one in question was still intact.    Not destroyed.    Talk about destroying your own alibi and reasonable doubt?!

 

-- You'd have to ignore Kraft's incendiary comments about the NFL.   Remarks that frankly should've gotten him slapped with a huge fine.   He's doing the exact same thing he's accusing the NFL of....    publicly spinning facts to influence the court of public opinion.    It's apparently OK when Kraft does it,  but not OK when the Patriots do it.

 

-- You'd have to ignore that after Brady's appearance at the appeal in June,  his representative's, both private and those from the NFLPA publicly raved about Brady's performance.   Said he cooperated fully.   They gave him an "A+".    You think those public comments weren't spin?    How do you think the NFL's legal team felt about Brady learning just 5 days before that he had destroyed his cell phone in question?  

 

-- You'd have to ignore that with nothing new to help Brady's case by this week,  and the only new info being the damning news of Brady having destroyed his phone,  Kraft and the Patriots roared their outrage that the NFL hasn't changed the penalty.  What was new that the NFL should've done that?    It came out that the NFLPA wanted the news of Brady destroying his phone to be permanently sealed.   They knew it would look like a cover-up and a lack of cooperation to the public.    Yet they can't understand why the NFL didn't reduce the penalty.

 

-- You'd have to ignore that the NFLPA leaked that Brady would only accept a penalty of NO GAMES MISSED.   NO SUSPENSION.   Only a token fine for lack of cooperation.    That's it.   They expected FULL EXONERATION.  No compromise would be accepted.    And anything short of clearing Brady would result in a lawsuit by Brady and his team.    And yet, with that as a back-drop they can't understand why the NFL didn't reduce the penalty.   As far as I can tell,  Brady was NOT asking for an apology!   (I think...)

 

-- You'd have to ignore that all current and former NFL quarterbacks have gone public think Brady cheated. 

 

-- You'd have to ignore the idea that the two equipment guys "went rogue" and acted on their own initiative to help Brady.   That Brady didn't make his wishes clear and they were simply acting on their own without orders.   All current and former NFL QB's have said no equipment guys would do this on their own.   They'd only do this with the knowledge,  direction, and approval of the QB.  

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that the NFL has gone after Tom Brady hard.  Why would they do that if they weren't convinced of his guilt?   He's the poster boy for the NFL.    Their greatest marketing tool.    He's right out of central casting.   A winner of four Super Bowls.   Male model good looks.    Married to the most famous supermodel in the world.   A happy father.    Everything the NFL wants fans to like.    What is the incentive for the NFL to go after Brady like this if not unless they feel he's guilty of cheating,  but, most importantly,  he's guilty of the cover-up.    Remember,  in most cases,  the cover-up is WORSE than the actual crime.   But if you believe NE fans here,  the NFL has completely blown and botched this case.   Brady is innocent.   New England is innocent.    Except Brady hasn't cooperated, and neither have the Patriots.

 

I get that New England fans are simply NEVER going to accept this version of events.   Never.   But I think most of the rest of the NFL has.    Owners appear to be supporting Goodell and the NFL.    Fans appear to have had their heads turned over the news about Brady destroying his phone.    Who destroys evidence and expects that doing so will help them?    Who?    No one.

 

There are just way, WAY too many things to ignore to believe the Patriots and Brady are innocent.    It's just a landslide of evidence.    The Natural Gas Law ONLY shows that things COULD have happened differently.   It does NOT prove anything else.  Only that things MIGHT'VE gone differently.

 

 

There's way too much circumstantial evidence that screams otherwise.

 

Sorry this went so long,  but I wanted to address as many points as I could.   If there are other points that I missed, please feel free to add them here......

[jabbanobadda]

(WARNING:   This post is extremely long.   I've tried to sum-up the case and demonstrate how hard it is to believe Tom Brady and the Patriots are innocent as they claim.   It's a very, very long post.    Read at your convenience.)

 

 

 

In order for a fan (outside of New England) to believe that Tom Brady and the Pats are Snow White innocent and that the NFL is out to prove them guilty and have bungled the case from the get-go,  here's what you'd have to disbelieve or dismiss outright......

 

 

-- You'd have to dismiss that when the Colts intercepted Brady back in the November game in Indy,  the players thought the ball was soft and gave it to the equipment staff.    They tested the balls back then and they were found to be BELOW the legal limit.  When the equipment staff notified Grigson they said the view among staffs around the NFL was that NE played fast and loose with the rules.     That's how ALL OF THIS got started.   The Colts notified the NFL back then.   This did NOT start at the AFCCG.

 

-- You'd have to dismiss that the balls were tested prior to the AFCCG and put into proper compliance,  yet the Pats equipment guy disappears for roughly 70-100 seconds.   I read this week that the NE franchise admits the guy was gone with the ball long enough to lower the pressure in the balls.     But you'd have to believe he didn't do anything illegal,  that he went to the bathroom to do his personal business.    A pure coincidence,  even though he's not supposed to take the balls to the bathroom with him.

 

-- You'd have to dismiss that the balls were re-tested at half and 11 of the 12 were found to be below legal limits.   The fact that they weren't all 2 pounds below the limit is meaningless.   They were below.   While the Colts' balls (4) were all legal.

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that the NE franchise was uncooperative.   They stopped the NFL from doing more interviews with the two equipment men.   The Patriots felt they had cooperated enough and felt another round of interviews was excessive.   Except it's not the Patriots who get to determine that.   The NFL gets to decide.   And this came after NE publicly expressed they'd cooperate fully.

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that Robert Kraft, perhaps the most powerful owner of all 32, publicly called out the NFL and said he'd expect an apology unless the NFL had "incontrovertible proof of wrong doing."   Except he knows full well that "incontrovertible proof" is NOT the NFL's legal standard.    The NFL's standard has always been a much lower one.   More likely than not.   The NFL does NOT have subpoena power.   They can't demand things.   But if accused don't want to cooperate,  the NFL can and will factor a lack of cooperation into their rulings.

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that Tom Brady said he couldn't remember the name of one of the equipment guys.  And he said he hadn't talked to them in roughly 6 months.   Yet, the day AFTER the AFCCG,  he made roughly 6 calls to one (both?) of the guys lasting a total of nearly one hour.     That's all innocent?     Seriously?

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that TB wouldn't let his own agent/lawyer take out the texts to submit to the NFL.   The NFL NEVER asked for Brady's phone.   A claim that continued to surface here on this website for months and months.   Brady never had to turn in his phone.   The NFL even said they don't have to be the ones to examine the text records.   They'd be satisfied if Brady's lawyer did that.    The NFL would trust Brady's representative to be honest.    Yet,  even THAT wasn't enough.

 

-- You'd have to ignore that Brady's phone was requested early in the process.   It was destroyed before he testified in March.  But he didn't mention that.  And it wasn't until FIVE DAYS before the June appeal that Brady's reps alerted the NFL that the phone was destroyed months prior.     A matter of routine,  they claimed,  and NOT a cover-up.   Except they also admitted (in one story I read)  that Brady's phone from late 2014,  the phone PRIOR to the one in question was still intact.    Not destroyed.    Talk about destroying your own alibi and reasonable doubt?!

 

-- You'd have to ignore Kraft's incendiary comments about the NFL.   Remarks that frankly should've gotten him slapped with a huge fine.   He's doing the exact same thing he's accusing the NFL of....    publicly spinning facts to influence the court of public opinion.    It's apparently OK when Kraft does it,  but not OK when the Patriots do it.

 

-- You'd have to ignore that after Brady's appearance at the appeal in June,  his representative's, both private and those from the NFLPA publicly raved about Brady's performance.   Said he cooperated fully.   They gave him an "A+".    You think those public comments weren't spin?    How do you think the NFL's legal team felt about Brady learning just 5 days before that he had destroyed his cell phone in question?  

 

-- You'd have to ignore that with nothing new to help Brady's case by this week,  and the only new info being the damning news of Brady having destroyed his phone,  Kraft and the Patriots roared their outrage that the NFL hasn't changed the penalty.  What was new that the NFL should've done that?    It came out that the NFLPA wanted the news of Brady destroying his phone to be permanently sealed.   They knew it would look like a cover-up and a lack of cooperation to the public.    Yet they can't understand why the NFL didn't reduce the penalty.

 

-- You'd have to ignore that the NFLPA leaked that Brady would only accept a penalty of NO GAMES MISSED.   NO SUSPENSION.   Only a token fine for lack of cooperation.    That's it.   They expected FULL EXONERATION.  No compromise would be accepted.    And anything short of clearing Brady would result in a lawsuit by Brady and his team.    And yet, with that as a back-drop they can't understand why the NFL didn't reduce the penalty.   As far as I can tell,  Brady was NOT asking for an apology!   (I think...)

 

-- You'd have to ignore that all current and former NFL quarterbacks have gone public think Brady cheated. 

 

-- You'd have to ignore the idea that the two equipment guys "went rogue" and acted on their own initiative to help Brady.   That Brady didn't make his wishes clear and they were simply acting on their own without orders.   All current and former NFL QB's have said no equipment guys would do this on their own.   They'd only do this with the knowledge,  direction, and approval of the QB.  

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that the NFL has gone after Tom Brady hard.  Why would they do that if they weren't convinced of his guilt?   He's the poster boy for the NFL.    Their greatest marketing tool.    He's right out of central casting.   A winner of four Super Bowls.   Male model good looks.    Married to the most famous supermodel in the world.   A happy father.    Everything the NFL wants fans to like.    What is the incentive for the NFL to go after Brady like this if not unless they feel he's guilty of cheating,  but, most importantly,  he's guilty of the cover-up.    Remember,  in most cases,  the cover-up is WORSE than the actual crime.   But if you believe NE fans here,  the NFL has completely blown and botched this case.   Brady is innocent.   New England is innocent.    Except Brady hasn't cooperated, and neither have the Patriots.

 

I get that New England fans are simply NEVER going to accept this version of events.   Never.   But I think most of the rest of the NFL has.    Owners appear to be supporting Goodell and the NFL.    Fans appear to have had their heads turned over the news about Brady destroying his phone.    Who destroys evidence and expects that doing so will help them?    Who?    No one.

 

There are just way, WAY too many things to ignore to believe the Patriots and Brady are innocent.    It's just a landslide of evidence.    The Natural Gas Law ONLY shows that things COULD have happened differently.   It does NOT prove anything else.  Only that things MIGHT'VE gone differently.

 

 

There's way too much circumstantial evidence that screams otherwise.

 

Sorry this went so long,  but I wanted to address as many points as I could.   If there are other points that I missed, please feel free to add them here......

Nice post...thanks.

/thread

[ColtRider]

With regards to post #1308 by NewColtsFan :

1. OUTSTANDING!

2. Thank you for the compilation and time.

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that the New England Patriots organization summizes that the NFL landscape contains a bunch of uneducated *s.

[dw49]

(WARNING:   This post is extremely long.   I've tried to sum-up the case and demonstrate how hard it is to believe Tom Brady and the Patriots are innocent as they claim.   It's a very, very long post.    Read at your convenience.)

 

 

 

In order for a fan (outside of New England) to believe that Tom Brady and the Pats are Snow White innocent and that the NFL is out to prove them guilty and have bungled the case from the get-go,  here's what you'd have to disbelieve or dismiss outright......

 

 

-- You'd have to dismiss that when the Colts intercepted Brady back in the November game in Indy,  the players thought the ball was soft and gave it to the equipment staff.    They tested the balls back then and they were found to be BELOW the legal limit.  When the equipment staff notified Grigson they said the view among staffs around the NFL was that NE played fast and loose with the rules.     That's how ALL OF THIS got started.   The Colts notified the NFL back then.   This did NOT start at the AFCCG.

 

-- You'd have to dismiss that the balls were tested prior to the AFCCG and put into proper compliance,  yet the Pats equipment guy disappears for roughly 70-100 seconds.   I read this week that the NE franchise admits the guy was gone with the ball long enough to lower the pressure in the balls.     But you'd have to believe he didn't do anything illegal,  that he went to the bathroom to do his personal business.    A pure coincidence,  even though he's not supposed to take the balls to the bathroom with him.

 

-- You'd have to dismiss that the balls were re-tested at half and 11 of the 12 were found to be below legal limits.   The fact that they weren't all 2 pounds below the limit is meaningless.   They were below.   While the Colts' balls (4) were all legal.

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that the NE franchise was uncooperative.   They stopped the NFL from doing more interviews with the two equipment men.   The Patriots felt they had cooperated enough and felt another round of interviews was excessive.   Except it's not the Patriots who get to determine that.   The NFL gets to decide.   And this came after NE publicly expressed they'd cooperate fully.

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that Robert Kraft, perhaps the most powerful owner of all 32, publicly called out the NFL and said he'd expect an apology unless the NFL had "incontrovertible proof of wrong doing."   Except he knows full well that "incontrovertible proof" is NOT the NFL's legal standard.    The NFL's standard has always been a much lower one.   More likely than not.   The NFL does NOT have subpoena power.   They can't demand things.   But if accused don't want to cooperate,  the NFL can and will factor a lack of cooperation into their rulings.

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that Tom Brady said he couldn't remember the name of one of the equipment guys.  And he said he hadn't talked to them in roughly 6 months.   Yet, the day AFTER the AFCCG,  he made roughly 6 calls to one (both?) of the guys lasting a total of nearly one hour.     That's all innocent?     Seriously?

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that TB wouldn't let his own agent/lawyer take out the texts to submit to the NFL.   The NFL NEVER asked for Brady's phone.   A claim that continued to surface here on this website for months and months.   Brady never had to turn in his phone.   The NFL even said they don't have to be the ones to examine the text records.   They'd be satisfied if Brady's lawyer did that.    The NFL would trust Brady's representative to be honest.    Yet,  even THAT wasn't enough.

 

-- You'd have to ignore that Brady's phone was requested early in the process.   It was destroyed before he testified in March.  But he didn't mention that.  And it wasn't until FIVE DAYS before the June appeal that Brady's reps alerted the NFL that the phone was destroyed months prior.     A matter of routine,  they claimed,  and NOT a cover-up.   Except they also admitted (in one story I read)  that Brady's phone from late 2014,  the phone PRIOR to the one in question was still intact.    Not destroyed.    Talk about destroying your own alibi and reasonable doubt?!

 

-- You'd have to ignore Kraft's incendiary comments about the NFL.   Remarks that frankly should've gotten him slapped with a huge fine.   He's doing the exact same thing he's accusing the NFL of....    publicly spinning facts to influence the court of public opinion.    It's apparently OK when Kraft does it,  but not OK when the Patriots do it.

 

-- You'd have to ignore that after Brady's appearance at the appeal in June,  his representative's, both private and those from the NFLPA publicly raved about Brady's performance.   Said he cooperated fully.   They gave him an "A+".    You think those public comments weren't spin?    How do you think the NFL's legal team felt about Brady learning just 5 days before that he had destroyed his cell phone in question?  

 

-- You'd have to ignore that with nothing new to help Brady's case by this week,  and the only new info being the damning news of Brady having destroyed his phone,  Kraft and the Patriots roared their outrage that the NFL hasn't changed the penalty.  What was new that the NFL should've done that?    It came out that the NFLPA wanted the news of Brady destroying his phone to be permanently sealed.   They knew it would look like a cover-up and a lack of cooperation to the public.    Yet they can't understand why the NFL didn't reduce the penalty.

 

-- You'd have to ignore that the NFLPA leaked that Brady would only accept a penalty of NO GAMES MISSED.   NO SUSPENSION.   Only a token fine for lack of cooperation.    That's it.   They expected FULL EXONERATION.  No compromise would be accepted.    And anything short of clearing Brady would result in a lawsuit by Brady and his team.    And yet, with that as a back-drop they can't understand why the NFL didn't reduce the penalty.   As far as I can tell,  Brady was NOT asking for an apology!   (I think...)

 

-- You'd have to ignore that all current and former NFL quarterbacks have gone public think Brady cheated. 

 

-- You'd have to ignore the idea that the two equipment guys "went rogue" and acted on their own initiative to help Brady.   That Brady didn't make his wishes clear and they were simply acting on their own without orders.   All current and former NFL QB's have said no equipment guys would do this on their own.   They'd only do this with the knowledge,  direction, and approval of the QB.  

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that the NFL has gone after Tom Brady hard.  Why would they do that if they weren't convinced of his guilt?   He's the poster boy for the NFL.    Their greatest marketing tool.    He's right out of central casting.   A winner of four Super Bowls.   Male model good looks.    Married to the most famous supermodel in the world.   A happy father.    Everything the NFL wants fans to like.    What is the incentive for the NFL to go after Brady like this if not unless they feel he's guilty of cheating,  but, most importantly,  he's guilty of the cover-up.    Remember,  in most cases,  the cover-up is WORSE than the actual crime.   But if you believe NE fans here,  the NFL has completely blown and botched this case.   Brady is innocent.   New England is innocent.    Except Brady hasn't cooperated, and neither have the Patriots.

 

I get that New England fans are simply NEVER going to accept this version of events.   Never.   But I think most of the rest of the NFL has.    Owners appear to be supporting Goodell and the NFL.    Fans appear to have had their heads turned over the news about Brady destroying his phone.    Who destroys evidence and expects that doing so will help them?    Who?    No one.

 

There are just way, WAY too many things to ignore to believe the Patriots and Brady are innocent.    It's just a landslide of evidence.    The Natural Gas Law ONLY shows that things COULD have happened differently.   It does NOT prove anything else.  Only that things MIGHT'VE gone differently.

 

 

There's way too much circumstantial evidence that screams otherwise.

 

Sorry this went so long,  but I wanted to address as many points as I could.   If there are other points that I missed, please feel free to add them here......

 

 

You covered it very nicely. It's all stuff that when put together , it leaves very little doubt. As I've said probably 50 times in all these threads.. if this were a criminal case where the burden of proof requires 12 people to all agree to the "beyond a reasonable doubt theory .. he would be convicted in probably a couple of hours. Long sentence there but sorry.

 

The only thing I would add is there was no urinal in that bathroom and the ball man stated he used one.

[weslo1812]

But if a high level official did leak such information, he did so with Goodell's backing.

Remember, this was a sting operation against the Patriots. Never before has a team not been warned to do something , with the NFL then launching a sting investigation MIDGAME.

Colt fans, think about it: if the NFL head office thought that the Patriots were cheating, then they ALLOWED THEM

TO during the first half! Instead of sending a memo like they normally would, they decided to launch a sting operation.

If you still can't see the blatant bias here, it's not worth discussing anymore.

what a joke!!! Pathetic lame duck arguments like this to try and defend a cheating team... really??? You're that desperate that you have to resort to something such as this that has absolutely NO validity at ALL!!!!Except in your own deceived mind of course.

I'll tell you what, you might really wanna read pages 8-10 of Goodells final report bud. He lays out information about messages from Mr. Jestremski phone that were exchanged between him Brady and Mr. McNally. There's alot there that Brady and his crew are gonna have to try and explain. Especially the fact that until the AFC championship game there was basically no talk or conversation between Mr. Brady and Mr. Jestremski, but all the sudden in the 2-3 days following the game there were numerous text messages and multiple phone conversations... odd huggh..?

Then Brady himself said he couldn't even remember specific details about those conversations. AND when asked the question "why were you talking to Mr. Jestremski in those two weeks?" "Mr. Brady responded in sum:" "I think most of the conversation centered around breaking in the balls." And if you read the previous info on the texts that Goodell quoted, you can see that answer just don't line up!!! Mr. Brady has dug himself a mighty fine and mighty large hole. The info they were able to get from Mr. Jestremski phone alone paints a very bad and ugly picture for Mr.Brady. Stuff just doesn't line up on his side at all!!!

[dw49]

But if a high level official did leak such information, he did so with Goodell's backing.

Remember, this was a sting operation against the Patriots. Never before has a team not been warned to do something , with the NFL then launching a sting investigation MIDGAME.

Colt fans, think about it: if the NFL head office thought that the Patriots were cheating, then they ALLOWED THEM

TO during the first half! Instead of sending a memo like they normally would, they decided to launch a sting operation.

If you still can't see the blatant bias here, it's not worth discussing anymore.

 

 

Really guy , where do you get off putting unfounded junk like that in print ? Show us the sources that " if a high level official leaked info , he did it with Goodall's blessing." You really should be just banned from the board , there must be something in the bylaws that allows us to get rid of you. 

[Moose Of Woe]

Lots of stuff

 

 

Don't forget that when the equipment manager went to the restroom for 70 seconds to "do his business," he claimed he used a urinal when one in fact doesn't actually exist in that restroom.

 

Also don't forget the deflator cell phone comments.

[weslo1812]

(WARNING: This post is extremely long. I've tried to sum-up the case and demonstrate how hard it is to believe Tom Brady and the Patriots are innocent as they claim. It's a very, very long post. Read at your convenience.)

In order for a fan (outside of New England) to believe that Tom Brady and the Pats are Snow White innocent and that the NFL is out to prove them guilty and have bungled the case from the get-go, here's what you'd have to disbelieve or dismiss outright......

-- You'd have to dismiss that when the Colts intercepted Brady back in the November game in Indy, the players thought the ball was soft and gave it to the equipment staff. They tested the balls back then and they were found to be BELOW the legal limit. When the equipment staff notified Grigson they said the view among staffs around the NFL was that NE played fast and loose with the rules. That's how ALL OF THIS got started. The Colts notified the NFL back then. This did NOT start at the AFCCG.

-- You'd have to dismiss that the balls were tested prior to the AFCCG and put into proper compliance, yet the Pats equipment guy disappears for roughly 70-100 seconds. I read this week that the NE franchise admits the guy was gone with the ball long enough to lower the pressure in the balls. But you'd have to believe he didn't do anything illegal, that he went to the bathroom to do his personal business. A pure coincidence, even though he's not supposed to take the balls to the bathroom with him.

-- You'd have to dismiss that the balls were re-tested at half and 11 of the 12 were found to be below legal limits. The fact that they weren't all 2 pounds below the limit is meaningless. They were below. While the Colts' balls (4) were all legal.

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that the NE franchise was uncooperative. They stopped the NFL from doing more interviews with the two equipment men. The Patriots felt they had cooperated enough and felt another round of interviews was excessive. Except it's not the Patriots who get to determine that. The NFL gets to decide. And this came after NE publicly expressed they'd cooperate fully.

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that Robert Kraft, perhaps the most powerful owner of all 32, publicly called out the NFL and said he'd expect an apology unless the NFL had "incontrovertible proof of wrong doing." Except he knows full well that "incontrovertible proof" is NOT the NFL's legal standard. The NFL's standard has always been a much lower one. More likely than not. The NFL does NOT have subpoena power. They can't demand things. But if accused don't want to cooperate, the NFL can and will factor a lack of cooperation into their rulings.

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that Tom Brady said he couldn't remember the name of one of the equipment guys. And he said he hadn't talked to them in roughly 6 months. Yet, the day AFTER the AFCCG, he made roughly 6 calls to one (both?) of the guys lasting a total of nearly one hour. That's all innocent? Seriously?

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that TB wouldn't let his own agent/lawyer take out the texts to submit to the NFL. The NFL NEVER asked for Brady's phone. A claim that continued to surface here on this website for months and months. Brady never had to turn in his phone. The NFL even said they don't have to be the ones to examine the text records. They'd be satisfied if Brady's lawyer did that. The NFL would trust Brady's representative to be honest. Yet, even THAT wasn't enough.

-- You'd have to ignore that Brady's phone was requested early in the process. It was destroyed before he testified in March. But he didn't mention that. And it wasn't until FIVE DAYS before the June appeal that Brady's reps alerted the NFL that the phone was destroyed months prior. A matter of routine, they claimed, and NOT a cover-up. Except they also admitted (in one story I read) that Brady's phone from late 2014, the phone PRIOR to the one in question was still intact. Not destroyed. Talk about destroying your own alibi and reasonable doubt?!

-- You'd have to ignore Kraft's incendiary comments about the NFL. Remarks that frankly should've gotten him slapped with a huge fine. He's doing the exact same thing he's accusing the NFL of.... publicly spinning facts to influence the court of public opinion. It's apparently OK when Kraft does it, but not OK when the Patriots do it.

-- You'd have to ignore that after Brady's appearance at the appeal in June, his representative's, both private and those from the NFLPA publicly raved about Brady's performance. Said he cooperated fully. They gave him an "A+". You think those public comments weren't spin? How do you think the NFL's legal team felt about Brady learning just 5 days before that he had destroyed his cell phone in question?

-- You'd have to ignore that with nothing new to help Brady's case by this week, and the only new info being the damning news of Brady having destroyed his phone, Kraft and the Patriots roared their outrage that the NFL hasn't changed the penalty. What was new that the NFL should've done that? It came out that the NFLPA wanted the news of Brady destroying his phone to be permanently sealed. They knew it would look like a cover-up and a lack of cooperation to the public. Yet they can't understand why the NFL didn't reduce the penalty.

-- You'd have to ignore that the NFLPA leaked that Brady would only accept a penalty of NO GAMES MISSED. NO SUSPENSION. Only a token fine for lack of cooperation. That's it. They expected FULL EXONERATION. No compromise would be accepted. And anything short of clearing Brady would result in a lawsuit by Brady and his team. And yet, with that as a back-drop they can't understand why the NFL didn't reduce the penalty. As far as I can tell, Brady was NOT asking for an apology! (I think...)

-- You'd have to ignore that all current and former NFL quarterbacks have gone public think Brady cheated.

-- You'd have to ignore the idea that the two equipment guys "went rogue" and acted on their own initiative to help Brady. That Brady didn't make his wishes clear and they were simply acting on their own without orders. All current and former NFL QB's have said no equipment guys would do this on their own. They'd only do this with the knowledge, direction, and approval of the QB.

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that the NFL has gone after Tom Brady hard. Why would they do that if they weren't convinced of his guilt? He's the poster boy for the NFL. Their greatest marketing tool. He's right out of central casting. A winner of four Super Bowls. Male model good looks. Married to the most famous supermodel in the world. A happy father. Everything the NFL wants fans to like. What is the incentive for the NFL to go after Brady like this if not unless they feel he's guilty of cheating, but, most importantly, he's guilty of the cover-up. Remember, in most cases, the cover-up is WORSE than the actual crime. But if you believe NE fans here, the NFL has completely blown and botched this case. Brady is innocent. New England is innocent. Except Brady hasn't cooperated, and neither have the Patriots.

I get that New England fans are simply NEVER going to accept this version of events. Never. But I think most of the rest of the NFL has. Owners appear to be supporting Goodell and the NFL. Fans appear to have had their heads turned over the news about Brady destroying his phone. Who destroys evidence and expects that doing so will help them? Who? No one.

There are just way, WAY too many things to ignore to believe the Patriots and Brady are innocent. It's just a landslide of evidence. The Natural Gas Law ONLY shows that things COULD have happened differently. It does NOT prove anything else. Only that things MIGHT'VE gone differently.

There's way too much circumstantial evidence that screams otherwise.

Sorry this went so long, but I wanted to address as many points as I could. If there are other points that I missed, please feel free to add them here......

Wow!!! VERY well done and said!!! The odds are highly stacked against Brady. It's very easy to see. Except for those who believe liars.

[weslo1812]

The bolded above is the problem actually.

With regard to this whole mess, Brady and the Patriots have done some things that look suspicious but those things pale in comparison to the NFL's incompetent smear campaign designed to pander to the rubes (present company included). I'm not going to bother linking articles or discussing the situation objectively, this isn't really the place for that obviously.

So you're another one who's fooled huggh...? If you Read Goodell's report he clearly states how he concluded the punishment he did and quoted the CBA where it gives him the authority to make such a decision. He didn't just throw out some random punishment. And as to why he went with the punishment of a first time PED violator. He clearly explains how this case was different from any other so he came to the conclusion that a First time PED violator is the closest matching penalty. Therefore he used that as his standard for the punishment. Also as you can read in one of my previous posts he states where the CBA basically says there no difined punishment or set standard of punishment for this. It's up to the commissioners reasonable judgement!!! Don't know where you guys are pulling this junk from. But Goodell clearly defends his position and authority well in his report.

[Superman]

(WARNING:   This post is extremely long.   I've tried to sum-up the case and demonstrate how hard it is to believe Tom Brady and the Patriots are innocent as they claim.   It's a very, very long post.    Read at your convenience.)

 

 

 

In order for a fan (outside of New England) to believe that Tom Brady and the Pats are Snow White innocent and that the NFL is out to prove them guilty and have bungled the case from the get-go,  here's what you'd have to disbelieve or dismiss outright......

 

 

-- You'd have to dismiss that when the Colts intercepted Brady back in the November game in Indy,  the players thought the ball was soft and gave it to the equipment staff.    They tested the balls back then and they were found to be BELOW the legal limit.  When the equipment staff notified Grigson they said the view among staffs around the NFL was that NE played fast and loose with the rules.     That's how ALL OF THIS got started.   The Colts notified the NFL back then.   This did NOT start at the AFCCG.

 

-- You'd have to dismiss that the balls were tested prior to the AFCCG and put into proper compliance,  yet the Pats equipment guy disappears for roughly 70-100 seconds.   I read this week that the NE franchise admits the guy was gone with the ball long enough to lower the pressure in the balls.     But you'd have to believe he didn't do anything illegal,  that he went to the bathroom to do his personal business.    A pure coincidence,  even though he's not supposed to take the balls to the bathroom with him.

 

-- You'd have to dismiss that the balls were re-tested at half and 11 of the 12 were found to be below legal limits.   The fact that they weren't all 2 pounds below the limit is meaningless.   They were below.   While the Colts' balls (4) were all legal.

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that the NE franchise was uncooperative.   They stopped the NFL from doing more interviews with the two equipment men.   The Patriots felt they had cooperated enough and felt another round of interviews was excessive.   Except it's not the Patriots who get to determine that.   The NFL gets to decide.   And this came after NE publicly expressed they'd cooperate fully.

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that Robert Kraft, perhaps the most powerful owner of all 32, publicly called out the NFL and said he'd expect an apology unless the NFL had "incontrovertible proof of wrong doing."   Except he knows full well that "incontrovertible proof" is NOT the NFL's legal standard.    The NFL's standard has always been a much lower one.   More likely than not.   The NFL does NOT have subpoena power.   They can't demand things.   But if accused don't want to cooperate,  the NFL can and will factor a lack of cooperation into their rulings.

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that Tom Brady said he couldn't remember the name of one of the equipment guys.  And he said he hadn't talked to them in roughly 6 months.   Yet, the day AFTER the AFCCG,  he made roughly 6 calls to one (both?) of the guys lasting a total of nearly one hour.     That's all innocent?     Seriously?

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that TB wouldn't let his own agent/lawyer take out the texts to submit to the NFL.   The NFL NEVER asked for Brady's phone.   A claim that continued to surface here on this website for months and months.   Brady never had to turn in his phone.   The NFL even said they don't have to be the ones to examine the text records.   They'd be satisfied if Brady's lawyer did that.    The NFL would trust Brady's representative to be honest.    Yet,  even THAT wasn't enough.

 

-- You'd have to ignore that Brady's phone was requested early in the process.   It was destroyed before he testified in March.  But he didn't mention that.  And it wasn't until FIVE DAYS before the June appeal that Brady's reps alerted the NFL that the phone was destroyed months prior.     A matter of routine,  they claimed,  and NOT a cover-up.   Except they also admitted (in one story I read)  that Brady's phone from late 2014,  the phone PRIOR to the one in question was still intact.    Not destroyed.    Talk about destroying your own alibi and reasonable doubt?!

 

-- You'd have to ignore Kraft's incendiary comments about the NFL.   Remarks that frankly should've gotten him slapped with a huge fine.   He's doing the exact same thing he's accusing the NFL of....    publicly spinning facts to influence the court of public opinion.    It's apparently OK when Kraft does it,  but not OK when the Patriots do it.

 

-- You'd have to ignore that after Brady's appearance at the appeal in June,  his representative's, both private and those from the NFLPA publicly raved about Brady's performance.   Said he cooperated fully.   They gave him an "A+".    You think those public comments weren't spin?    How do you think the NFL's legal team felt about Brady learning just 5 days before that he had destroyed his cell phone in question?  

 

-- You'd have to ignore that with nothing new to help Brady's case by this week,  and the only new info being the damning news of Brady having destroyed his phone,  Kraft and the Patriots roared their outrage that the NFL hasn't changed the penalty.  What was new that the NFL should've done that?    It came out that the NFLPA wanted the news of Brady destroying his phone to be permanently sealed.   They knew it would look like a cover-up and a lack of cooperation to the public.    Yet they can't understand why the NFL didn't reduce the penalty.

 

-- You'd have to ignore that the NFLPA leaked that Brady would only accept a penalty of NO GAMES MISSED.   NO SUSPENSION.   Only a token fine for lack of cooperation.    That's it.   They expected FULL EXONERATION.  No compromise would be accepted.    And anything short of clearing Brady would result in a lawsuit by Brady and his team.    And yet, with that as a back-drop they can't understand why the NFL didn't reduce the penalty.   As far as I can tell,  Brady was NOT asking for an apology!   (I think...)

 

-- You'd have to ignore that all current and former NFL quarterbacks have gone public think Brady cheated. 

 

-- You'd have to ignore the idea that the two equipment guys "went rogue" and acted on their own initiative to help Brady.   That Brady didn't make his wishes clear and they were simply acting on their own without orders.   All current and former NFL QB's have said no equipment guys would do this on their own.   They'd only do this with the knowledge,  direction, and approval of the QB.  

 

-- You'd have to ignore the fact that the NFL has gone after Tom Brady hard.  Why would they do that if they weren't convinced of his guilt?   He's the poster boy for the NFL.    Their greatest marketing tool.    He's right out of central casting.   A winner of four Super Bowls.   Male model good looks.    Married to the most famous supermodel in the world.   A happy father.    Everything the NFL wants fans to like.    What is the incentive for the NFL to go after Brady like this if not unless they feel he's guilty of cheating,  but, most importantly,  he's guilty of the cover-up.    Remember,  in most cases,  the cover-up is WORSE than the actual crime.   But if you believe NE fans here,  the NFL has completely blown and botched this case.   Brady is innocent.   New England is innocent.    Except Brady hasn't cooperated, and neither have the Patriots.

 

I get that New England fans are simply NEVER going to accept this version of events.   Never.   But I think most of the rest of the NFL has.    Owners appear to be supporting Goodell and the NFL.    Fans appear to have had their heads turned over the news about Brady destroying his phone.    Who destroys evidence and expects that doing so will help them?    Who?    No one.

 

There are just way, WAY too many things to ignore to believe the Patriots and Brady are innocent.    It's just a landslide of evidence.    The Natural Gas Law ONLY shows that things COULD have happened differently.   It does NOT prove anything else.  Only that things MIGHT'VE gone differently.

 

 

There's way too much circumstantial evidence that screams otherwise.

 

Sorry this went so long,  but I wanted to address as many points as I could.   If there are other points that I missed, please feel free to add them here......

 

This is called a preponderance of evidence. Some of these things might be in dispute, but most of them line up to tell a story of some wrongdoing. 

[NewColtsFan]

This is called a preponderance of evidence. Some of these things might be in dispute, but most of them line up to tell a story of some wrongdoing. 

 

Oh.....   I just remembered one more....

 

-- You'd have to dismiss that when Brady first met the media in January at his big press conference he said he didn't know anything about the footballs.    That he just grabbed them and went and played.   Completely forgetting that he'd given interviews where he clearly said he'd prefer his football's at the lower end of the PSI range.     Whoops!

 

(I suspect I'll remember even more as time passes.....)

[ViriLudant]

Deflection much? Just another Pats fan blaming the league. If there was a sting...why would that be? Would it be because someone was doing something, i dont know, like cheating? Hmmm.

"Waaahh, it's your fault we cheated, 'cause you tried to catch us...waahhh!"

*In case you were wondering, Waaahh is the sound a baby makes when they cry.*

The amusing part, of course, is that the sting failed.

Coleman never wrote down the initial measurements .

No direct evidence showed cheating.

Sad effort by the NFL.

[southwest1]

You are completely speculating on Goodell, you really have no idea.  Kensil(Sp?) could have done it on his own, if he dislikes the Pats as much as you Pats fans say he does.

 

No this was not a "sting operation", stop acting like everyone is out to get the Pats.

 

It is not the duty of the NFL to warn teams not to cheat, its just not.

 

As far as blatant bias, go look in the mirror.

 

 

1) Even if the numbers can be entirely explained by Ideal Gas Law -- and experts disagree, so there's no surprise that you and I disagree -- that doesn't mean the Patriots are exonerated. There still were activities that were against the rules, like taking the footballs from the locker room and going into the restroom, and the communications between Jastremski and McNally paint a picture. 

 

2) I'm not trying to paint a picture of a criminal investigation. I'm saying that as a matter of principle, when there is an investigation, the party being investigated isn't given access to all the information the investigators have. And since the Patriots were being investigated for wrongdoing, whether it happened or not, it's logical that the league wouldn't be sharing information with them. The relationship, as it pertains to the investigation, wasn't one of partners, nor should it have been.

 

3) The Patriots emails clearly asked for the league to release the PSI numbers. Nay, demanded. That's more than just 'stop leaking info.' It's 'let us clear our name now.' And that's just not how it works, no matter who it is being investigated. When Mueller was investigating the league office in association with the Ray Rice situation and whether anyone had seen the tapes, despite all the leaks and media reports that didn't wind up being accurate, the league wasn't releasing information along the way to clear anyone's name. Goodell made his statements, then they waited for the report.

 

4) As to this idea that there was a great conspiracy to frame the Patriots, we'll just never agree on that. Nor has anyone painted a realistic picture of why anyone in the league would want to undermine the Patriots' standing. Nothing more than unverified reports has suggested that Kensil or any other higher up in the league was the source of the leak.

These are the 2 NE proclamations that always make me burst out laughing anytime a Tom Brady supporter makes them. I think film makers Oliver Stone & Quentin Tarantino should make a conspiracy film on Saint Brady & his vendetta crucifixion by Pontius Pilate [Roger Goodell] who ordered the unlawful execution/media smear. Seriously, I think a few NE fans have gone off the 3rd rail here. 

 

What should we call it? Let's see: "The Almighty & His Broken Principles?" "What's Your Definition Of I Don't Think So?" or PSI Predicaments & Broken Phones?"  I like the last title myself. 

[southwest1]

The amusing part, of course, is that the sting failed.

Coleman never wrote down the initial measurements .

No direct evidence showed cheating.

Sad effort by the NFL.

I will admit that failing to record the PSI readings during the AFC Championship Game was a gross error in judgement that even I have trouble accepting VL. However, no one can definitively prove that this mistake as egregious as it was...Was a deliberate attempt at sabotage, especially when you remember that NE still won the game & whenever an landmark, unforeseen incident happens, demanding perfection is often a pipe dream at best. 

 

If the Patriots were stripped of their 4th Lombardi trophy or asked to re-play the AFC Championship Game over again, you'd have a point. But, since your team still got a victory parade in Boston, It's a moot or irrelevant point when all is said & done. 

 

Why do you think Goodell has your team in his crosshairs exactly? Wouldn't he go after Pittsburgh with 6 Lombardi trophies instead of NE with only 4 in their possession since legacy is the underlying theme of attack here? 

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Im gonna ask a completely hypothetical question....

If some woman comes out and says she was raped by Tom Brady, rape kit has his DNA in it and there is roofies in her blood system, would you still defend him?

Well Bill Clinton never had sex with that intern & Bill Cosby just loves pudding & Tom Brady is a Saint of course in Patriot land defending him has become a full time job as late & there is something they all share a nice smile like a snake & can lie with ease with many defenders & enablers  ..

[Bad Morty]

Really guy , where do you get off putting unfounded junk like that in print ? Show us the sources that " if a high level official leaked info , he did it with Goodall's blessing." 

I'm guessing the same place you get "if a ball boy took balls into a bathroom and deflated them, he did it with Brady's blessing" from.

[Bad Morty]

I will admit that failing to record the PSI readings during the AFC Championship Game was a gross error in judgement that even I have trouble accepting VL. However, no one can definitively prove that this mistake as egregious as it was...

Not having beginning measurements by definition means that statements regarding the change in pressure when the balls were measured at halftime are estimates, not actual numbers. I would think that would be a somewhat critical omission of data that the league should have considered before destroying a guy's legacy the way they have.

[jabbanobadda]

Not having beginning measurements by definition means that statements regarding the change in pressure when the balls were measured at halftime are estimates, not actual numbers. I would think that would be a somewhat critical omission of data that the league should have considered before destroying a guy's legacy the way they have.

I'm curious to why you think they are estimates and not real numbers because they were not written down? Are you saying they forgot the real numbers? Are they lying? If the latter, would it really matter if they wrote it down since they would have written down false numbers anyway as part of your imaginary sting operation? Contrary to popular Bostonian belief, everyone is not a liar and a cheat.

Them NOT recording the numbers is actually proof that this wasn't a sting operation. It's more than likely something that fell through the cracks and normally wouldn't have mattered...except they were refereeing a Pats game, you better cross your I's and dot your T's because they are willing/probable to cheat in any facet of the game.

[jabbanobadda]

And how long has ESPN been swinging from Tom Brady and the Patriots nuts? Now, all of the sudden ESPN is out to get them?

[dw49]

I'm guessing the same place you get "if a ball boy took balls into a bathroom and deflated them, he did it with Brady's blessing" from.

 

 

You poor bas.... What else is there to say ?  

[ColtRider]

Not having beginning measurements by definition means that statements regarding the change in pressure when the balls were measured at halftime are estimates, not actual numbers. I would think that would be a somewhat critical omission of data that the league should have considered before destroying a guy's legacy the way they have.

"No legacy is so rich as honesty!" -- William Shakespeare

Tom Brady - Take note!

[dw49]

Not having beginning measurements by definition means that statements regarding the change in pressure when the balls were measured at halftime are estimates, not actual numbers. I would think that would be a somewhat critical omission of data that the league should have considered before destroying a guy's legacy the way they have.

 

Not having beginning measurements by definition means that statements regarding the change in pressure when the balls were measured at halftime are estimates, not actual numbers. I would think that would be a somewhat critical omission of data that the league should have considered before destroying a guy's legacy the way they have.

 

 

Somehow I take pleasure in knowing that you think Brady's legacy is destroyed. I know he was involved ...and I really don't think his legacy is destroyed. He's a great football player that just happens to be a liar and a cheater . Big deal .....he and his team got their just punishment.

 

 I mean Ty Cobb was the nasty , no good guy that some think went as far to commit a murder. He's still looked upon as one of the all-time great baseball players. 

[jabbanobadda]

Somehow I take pleasure in knowing that you think Brady's legacy is destroyed. I know he was involved ...and I really don't think his legacy is destroyed. He's a great football player that just happens to be a liar and a cheater . Big deal .....he and his team got their just punishment.

 

 I mean Ty Cobb was the nasty , no good guy that some think went as far to commit a murder. He's still looked upon as one of the all-time great baseball players.

I love the fact that every Pats fan is crying about Brady's legacy. Everytime they try to convince someone that he is the GOAT, they know deep down inside that no matter how much they shout it from the roof tops...no one believes them! Hahaha...it's awesome! We all know one of the best parts of being a sports fan is bragging about how good your guy/team is. Well, they lost that. They can say as much as they want they know he is the best and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, but ah...it does...it does.

[dw49]

I love the fact that every Pats fan is crying about Brady's legacy. Everytime they try to convince someone that he is the GOAT, they know deep down inside that no matter how much they shout it from the roof tops...no one believes them! Hahaha...it's awesome! We all know one of the best parts of being a sports fan is bragging about how good your guy/team is. Well, they lost that. They can say as much as they want they know he is the best and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, but ah...it does...it does.

 

 

It's a rotten shame...

[crazycolt1]

Not having beginning measurements by definition means that statements regarding the change in pressure when the balls were measured at halftime are estimates, not actual numbers. I would think that would be a somewhat critical omission of data that the league should have considered before destroying a guy's legacy the way they have.

So in your mind Brady had nothing to do with destroying himself? All this would not have happened had Brady just cooperated with the NFL investigation. As it is he has cost Kraft 1 million dollars, his team 2 draft picks and got himself suspended 4 games. He, himself is the single reason this has gone on as long as it has. You may chose to believe what you want while over looking the facts. If I were a Patriot fan I would be pretty upset with any player who has done the damage to my team that Brady has done. But when your fandom makes you turn a blind eye to what has happened I guess it makes no difference to you.

[Nadine]

Yeah we disagree there. Any organization should have clearly defined rules and clearly defined sanctions when those rules are violated. "You do A, you get B. Done". It's hard for me to fathom why the league is an active participant in trying to destroy the legacy and tarnish the image of a guy with his stature and his track record in the league. Frankly, it's weird.

 

Have you ever been the one responsible for 'sanctions'? Do you know the extent to which people skate the edge of rules and claim innocence? 

 

If we lived in a black and white world, all decisions would be easy.......yes, no, right, wrong......all no problem. We don't live there, obviously.

 

People use rules, they skate the intent and claim innocence all the time, including here.

 

Everything is always someone else's fault.

 

In the end, everyone needs to be committed to 'following the rules'.  It doesn't work if one side makes the rules a game.......see how far you can go before you are called out for for violating them.

 

As far as destroying a legacy and tarnishing an image, that's the risk you take when you  think you are too big to fail and you skate the intent of rules.

 

Tom Brady has had an active hand in whatever damage has been done to his image.  It was his risk to take and he took it.

[amfootball]

Not having beginning measurements by definition means that statements regarding the change in pressure when the balls were measured at halftime are estimates, not actual numbers. I would think that would be a somewhat critical omission of data that the league should have considered before destroying a guy's legacy the way they have.

Brady's legacy will be just fine. Everyone out there knows that this violation is a complete joke and something for which the NFL has made itself look foolish and incompetent as usual. And of course it allegedly occurred in a blow out win where Brad scored more points in the second half with inflated footballs than he did in the first half and then went on to shred the best defense in the league in the SB with the best Super Bowl fourth quarter in history.

 

Did you happen to listen last week to WEEI when they were going through the teams in the AFC East? They had Pats hater Manish Mehta to talk about the Jets. They asked him at the end what his thoughts were on Brady related to deflategate and he said that Brady will be ultimately unaffected as he is an all time great whose performance in the past Super Bowl cemented him as the greatest QB in the game. Now if anyone was going to try to use deflategate as a way to take a shot at Brady it would have been Mehta who hates the Pats more than anyone and even he said it won't matter. 

 

What affected Brady's legacy the most these past 7 months was winning that SB in the manner he did. Had he lost that game, he would have gotten lumped in with Elway and Kelly and those QBs that have lost 3 or more SBs but he came through instead with this 3rd SB MVP - most in history with Montana.

[Bad Morty]

I'm curious to why you think they are estimates and not real numbers because they were not written down? Are you saying they forgot the real numbers? Are they lying? If the latter, would it really matter if they wrote it down since they would have written down false numbers anyway as part of your imaginary sting operation? Contrary to popular Bostonian belief, everyone is not a liar and a cheat.

Them NOT recording the numbers is actually proof that this wasn't a sting operation. It's more than likely something that fell through the cracks and normally wouldn't have mattered...except they were refereeing a Pats game, you better cross your I's and dot your T's because they are willing/probable to cheat in any facet of the game.

If you turned in a science paper to your professor, the goal of which was to prove that a set of footballs deflated by more than the ideal gas law would suggest they should have, and you provided a set of halftime measurements for each ball but then said "I didn't record the pressure of the balls before the game and I don't really know which gauge I used to test them...but I'm pretty sure each ball was at 12.5PSI or thereabouts and while I thought I used this gauge, my friend says I used the other"...what grade do you think you'd get?

 

This is a sting, and here's why...*s like Kensil thought that proving this case would be as simple as measuring balls at halftime, seeing that they were below 12.5, and saying "A HA! GOTCHA!". It's painfully obvious nobody in the league office had considered the fact that balls will deflate on their own in cold conditions. Why do you think they are NOW putting a procedure in place to test this? So they measured balls, found them a pound or so deflated, leaked a story that said they were all TWO pounds deflated just to get the public all riled up, and THEN they had their "uh-oh" moment when they realized that pressure drop occurs naturally.

 

As for the pathetic schadenfreude many of you exhibit who claim that the destruction of Brady's legacy impacts ME in any way, wow. That is about as pathetic as it gets and speaks to the psychological harm the Patriots have inflicted on you all as a fan base. Brady's legacy damage does nothing to me whatsoever. I live in Boston. Everybody here believes the guy is being railroaded and he will receive the loudest ovation you've ever heard when he makes his first appearance this year, whether it's game 1 or game 5. So what you think or what people in Tuscaloosa think doesn't matter a lick to me. The impact of this lies squarely with Brady himself. He's the guy who was unfairly targeted by a league he did so much good for. That's going to be Goodell's legacy and I hope he chokes on it.

[Moose Of Woe]

Brady's legacy will be just fine. Everyone out there knows that this violation is a complete joke and something for which the NFL has made itself look foolish and incompetent as usual.

One US poll had some 70% say he was guilty before the news came out that he destroyed his cell phone among other things.

 

That number has likely increased substantially since then to the point where ~90% of  people will tell you he's a cheater outside New England and Miami. The number is skewed a bit by the 99% of people in New England and Miami who will take to the grave he did no wrong, so nationwide it's probably closer to 80-85%.

 

I'd say it's pretty tarnished, regardless of whatever the court decides. People have made up their minds based on either common sense or homerism. A court ruling for better or worse won't change it.

 

The only thing that would help Brady at this point would be if the NFL came out and said nothing actually happened, all circumstantial data was falsified and they did this for kicks.

[amfootball]

One US poll had some 70% say he was guilty before the news came out that he destroyed his cell phone among other things.

 

That number has likely increased substantially since then to the point where ~90% of  people will tell you he's a cheater outside New England and Miami. The number is skewed a bit by the 99% of people in New England and Miami who will take to the grave he did no wrong, so nationwide it's probably closer to 80-85%.

 

I'd say it's pretty tarnished, regardless of whatever the court decides. People have made up their minds based on either common sense or homerism. A court ruling for better or worse won't change it.

 

The only thing that would help Brady at this point would be if the NFL came out and said nothing actually happened, all circumstantial data was falsified and they did this for kicks.

Thinking he did it is one thing, the impact on him as an al time great is another. There will always be a percentage of haters that will hang on to it much like spygate but at the end of the day his accomplishments are the best of any QB in the SB era and everyone will be chasing him. Right now it is at a fever pitch but once the dust settles and games are played, it will be the smallest of blips especially if he keeps winning and gets another ring ...

[dw49]

Brady's legacy will be just fine. Everyone out there knows that this violation is a complete joke and something for which the NFL has made itself look foolish and incompetent as usual. And of course it allegedly occurred in a blow out win where Brad scored more points in the second half with inflated footballs than he did in the first half and then went on to shred the best defense in the league in the SB with the best Super Bowl fourth quarter in history.

 

Did you happen to listen last week to WEEI when they were going through the teams in the AFC East? They had Pats hater Manish Mehta to talk about the Jets. They asked him at the end what his thoughts were on Brady related to deflategate and he said that Brady will be ultimately unaffected as he is an all time great whose performance in the past Super Bowl cemented him as the greatest QB in the game. Now if anyone was going to try to use deflategate as a way to take a shot at Brady it would have been Mehta who hates the Pats more than anyone and even he said it won't matter. 

 

What affected Brady's legacy the most these past 7 months was winning that SB in the manner he did. Had he lost that game, he would have gotten lumped in with Elway and Kelly and those QBs that have lost 3 or more SBs but he came through instead with this 3rd SB MVP - most in history with Montana.

 

 

This game was a blow out. How about the week before ? If they on't win that one , they don't play this one. If he's guilty , which most believe , it's really not like you say.