Will we ever have a great running game?

[mintor]

need a rushing  rb with o'line built too run block.  we don,t have yet. o'line too soft

[SteelCityColt]

Yea I understand...but just think...Richardson has like 115 carries this year or something like that? What if he ripped an 80 yard run (hahah yeah we are dreaming here and it could happen... .) but then that would improve his YPCA by 3/4 of a yard. So is YPCA would improve on 1 play from 3.7 to 4.36.

 

Again, the point is 1 simple "large" play is enough to change that YPCA significantly. If you're looking at stats only then you'd say this right:

 

115 carries 3.7 YPCA (Man this guy sucks!! Mediocre at best)

116 carries 4.36 YPCA (Man this guy is awesome averaging over 4 yards per carry).

 

Yet it's the SAME PERSON just after 1 play. Stats are DECEIVING....big time! 

 

I'm not defending Richardson by any means...I haven't made up my mind on the kid yet....but I do know that knowing what I know I wouldn't have made that trade (and based on what I know....what I mean by that is that I know our offensive line isn't doing there job). So I don't care WHO you plug in the backfield right now in INDY...the YPCA will be very similar for any running back you throw back there....that I do believe.

 

Murray in Dallas is phenomenal...but do you think he would be as phenomenal in INDY....TAMPA...JACKSONVILLE ? 

 

I hear you man but you'd hope over a season a YPCA would become a truer statistic, but as you say outliers will always skew a average if they are big enough compared to the sample size. 

 

You're completely correct too in you thoughts on Murray. Not to say he isn't talented, and injuries have held him back, but that is some line to run behind. 

[Gavin]

Bradshaw up till the Patriots game- 382 offensive snaps, 48 targets, 128 runs

 

Richardson up till the Patriots game-315 offensive snaps, 115 run attempts, 27 targets

 

 

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts

 

 

Snap count for every player

 

EDITED Below

 

I forgot to add Trent also missed 1 game, That's probably worth 35 snaps give or take a couple given what he has averaged per game (35 snaps per game)

[BOTT]

He is not FAR superior....a little over a YARD per carry isn't a big difference. Furthermore...Bradshaw (I love the guy) is hurt...yet again. Not sure how you can call someone who can't stay on the field SUPERIOR. Stat's don't mean everything...case in point with Bradshaws nagging injuries....just like Vick Ballards' nagging injuries he keeps having.

1. Over a yard per carry difference is huge in the nfl

2. We are talking talent. We all know Bradshaw has injury issues.

[Coffeedrinker]

I'm not a football coach but I can notice the obvious. We started with the running game and it just wouldn't work. Trent looked lost out there tonight and Bradshaw is a tough runner but was stopped. I feel as if each year history repeats itself. Chalk it up to young olinemen not setting up blocks? Or is it our running backs that can't hit the hole or power through like Gray just did? What's going on?

How did they start off running?  They ran the ball 4 times in the first 16 plays.  And they don't run the ball two times in a row.  That is the problem.  It's not the line, it's not the RBs it's they call so few running plays and it's always completely obvious they are going to run the ball.

[Gavin]

How did they start off running?  They ran the ball 4 times in the first 16 plays.  And they don't run the ball two times in a row.  That is the problem.  It's not the line, it's not the RBs it's they call so few running plays and it's always completely obvious they are going to run the ball.

I counted 5 not counting field goals, punts and penalties......Still point made. My only argument would be for an O Line that has lacked the fundamentals of run blocking for the better part of the season to this point Im not sure stringing a few more runs in a row would do much to help...Obviously it could but this team seems so engrossed in what there coming opponents are doing that they could be spending so much time worrying about other teams they are facing on any given week rather then spending more time on fundamentals and divvying up preparation for there upcoming opponent from there.

 

Pagano has made the comment more then once that the staff throws a lot at the players and sees what sticks, One of the players even took to Twitter about the size of the playbook, Im not saying what how the coaches are going about it is wrong of course...Not my place, They obviously have much more info to go on then I do...But in my opinion it would not hurt to scale the playbook down a bit and simplify some things

 

Just my opinions of course from an outsiders point of view who has never been in an inside point of view

[ColtStronger]

I'm not a football coach but I can notice the obvious. We started with the running game and it just wouldn't work. Trent looked lost out there tonight and Bradshaw is a tough runner but was stopped. I feel as if each year history repeats itself. Chalk it up to young olinemen not setting up blocks? Or is it our running backs that can't hit the hole or power through like Gray just did? What's going on?

You pose a great question!!  In fact, I'm glad for once somebody does question it, and not just look at the stat sheet and see Trent's 3.5 average then say he's garbage...  Yes, last season and most of this season you can chalk it up to poor blocking from the O-Line.  Also Trent does hesitate at times before hitting the hole, but usually he does it because there isn't a hole and he is trying to bounce it outside.  That's the main difference why Ahmad was doing better.  Our RB's are only as good as the line that is blocking for them.  So the answer to the question, we will be able to run the ball, when the interior line can block well all the time.  Mewhort and Harrison both are rookies and Thornton is in his 2nd year I believe, so I predict it wont be for quite some time.  They need more experience, which doesn't come overnight.

[crazycolt1]

He had the same offensive line as Grampa Bradshaw, yet Bradshaw outperformed him on every occasion.

Two different types of backs.

[Coffeedrinker]

I counted 5 not counting field goals, punts and penalties......Still point made. My only argument would be for an O Line that has lacked the fundamentals of run blocking for the better part of the season to this point Im not sure stringing a few more runs in a row would do much to help...Obviously it could but this team seems so engrossed in what there coming opponents are doing that they could be spending so much time worrying about other teams they are facing on any given week rather then spending more time on fundamentals and divvying up preparation for there upcoming opponent from there.

 

Pagano has made the comment more then once that the staff throws a lot at the players and sees what sticks, One of the players even took to Twitter about the size of the playbook, Im not saying what how the coaches are going about it is wrong of course...Not my place, They obviously have much more info to go on then I do...But in my opinion it would not hurt to scale the playbook down a bit and simplify some things

 

Just my opinions of course from an outsiders point of view who has never been in an inside point of view

I don't count when Luck scrambles as the offense calling a running play.  So yes, they had 5 runs but they only called 4 running plays.

[ColtStronger]

Yea I understand...but just think...Richardson has like 115 carries this year or something like that? What if he ripped an 80 yard run (hahah yeah we are dreaming here and it could happen... .) but then that would improve his YPCA by 3/4 of a yard. So is YPCA would improve on 1 play from 3.7 to 4.36.

 

Again, the point is 1 simple "large" play is enough to change that YPCA significantly. If you're looking at stats only then you'd say this right:

 

115 carries 3.7 YPCA (Man this guy sucks!! Mediocre at best)

116 carries 4.36 YPCA (Man this guy is awesome averaging over 4 yards per carry).

 

Yet it's the SAME PERSON just after 1 play. Stats are DECEIVING....big time! 

 

I'm not defending Richardson by any means...I haven't made up my mind on the kid yet....but I do know that knowing what I know I wouldn't have made that trade (and based on what I know....what I mean by that is that I know our offensive line isn't doing there job). So I don't care WHO you plug in the backfield right now in INDY...the YPCA will be very similar for any running back you throw back there....that I do believe.

 

Murray in Dallas is phenomenal...but do you think he would be as phenomenal in INDY....TAMPA...JACKSONVILLE ? 

I swear you just read a few posts of mine and put that together lol jk, but really I've been saying the same exact thing.  The 1 big play can deceive stats, or a lot of negative rushes hit behind the LOS does the same thing over time.  Also I used the same example of Murray on our team and Tampa and Jax.  LOL we think alike LOL!!

 

On a side note, I havent made my mind up on Richardson either.  I do think he is a good player and will be who I thought he was, but I wont be able to truly diagnose him until the interior O-Line gets more experience or matures.  They're simply too young to hang with pro bowlers or veterans on the D-Line.The cant push the line in their favor or sustain the small holes that they open up very consistently.

[sfergson727]

Two different types of backs.

Very true, one out-performs, and the other under-performs.

[Gavin]

I don't count when Luck scrambles as the offense calling a running play.  So yes, they had 5 runs but they only called 4 running plays.

What do you think of the rest of my post, That's really what Im interested in thoughts on that

[BOTT]

Two different types of backs.

Yeah, one sucks and the other doesn't

[Modern]

Let's say Dallas called today and wanted to trade Murray even up for Trent, would you make the deal ?

Trade deadlines and all of that aside.

[wesd2890]

I think I conceded that earlier, didn't I? Defective coaching and designing of plays has something to do with it, definitely. Even so, Trent does way too much dancing rather than running straight ahead.

He trys dancing around defenders on the back field

[Coffeedrinker]

What do you think of the rest of my post, That's really what Im interested in thoughts on that

I do think Harrison and Thornton lack fundamentals, Thornton more so when he gets tired and during the season there really isn't time to work on fundamentals, that is what the offseason is for.  As for the coaches throwing a lot at them... I wouldn't read too much into that, that sounds a lot like coaches speak to acknowledge the players are missing some things but he doesn't want to say that to the media.  For the line in a man blocking scheme the size of the playbook shouldn't really matter much... you block the guy in front of you.

 

I think it's just more scheme based.  In the Pats game CC showed a series of plays and discussing the angles the Pats players had when blocking.  The Colts don't do any of that, that I have seen.  For example let's say a run is supposed to go up the 4 hole (between the RG and RT) and there is a DT lined up in the 2 hole, a DE lines up on the outside shoulder of the RT.  Perfect situation for a run up the 4 hole.  

 

What should happen to get angles on everyone is the RG should get an arm on the DT to allow the center time to get into position and then go get the LB.  The RT takes the DE and the TE gets the OLB.  What the Colts do is send the center out to get the LB while the RG takes the DT.  With the Colts the problem is compounded by:  the D knows it's going to be a run so they just watch which way Luck turns and they know which side it's going to and run to fill the gap, the fact that neither Thornton, Harrison nor Mewhort are good at blocking in space and they never evaluate the play after and say, if the d is going to do this then if we run here it will negate that.

[wesd2890]

Let's say Dallas called today and wanted to trade Murray even up for Trent, would you make the deal ?

Trade deadlines and all of that aside.

And you think trent has a fumbling problem

[Modern]

Trent has a plethora of problems.

[Gavin]

I do think Harrison and Thornton lack fundamentals, Thornton more so when he gets tired and during the season there really isn't time to work on fundamentals, that is what the offseason is for.  As for the coaches throwing a lot at them... I wouldn't read too much into that, that sounds a lot like coaches speak to acknowledge the players are missing some things but he doesn't want to say that to the media.  For the line in a man blocking scheme the size of the playbook shouldn't really matter much... you block the guy in front of you.

 

I think it's just more scheme based.  In the Pats game CC showed a series of plays and discussing the angles the Pats players had when blocking.  The Colts don't do any of that, that I have seen.  For example let's say a run is supposed to go up the 4 hole (between the RG and RT) and there is a DT lined up in the 2 hole, a DE lines up on the outside shoulder of the RT.  Perfect situation for a run up the 4 hole.  

 

What should happen to get angles on everyone is the RG should get an arm on the DT to allow the center time to get into position and then go get the LB.  The RT takes the DE and the TE gets the OLB.  What the Colts do is send the center out to get the LB while the RG takes the DT.  With the Colts the problem is compounded by:  the D knows it's going to be a run so they just watch which way Luck turns and they know which side it's going to and run to fill the gap, the fact that neither Thornton, Harrison nor Mewhort are good at blocking in space and they never evaluate the play after and say, if the d is going to do this then if we run here it will negate that.

"I think it's just more scheme based.  In the Pats game CC showed a series of plays and discussing the angles the Pats players had when blocking.  The Colts don't do any of that, that I have seen.  For example let's say a run is supposed to go up the 4 hole (between the RG and RT) and there is a DT lined up in the 2 hole, a DE lines up on the outside shoulder of the RT.  Perfect situation for a run up the 4 hole." 

 

Exactly! I said something similar in regards to why the Colts D Line got beat off the LOS ...Because of the ANGLES the Pats O line used when the D got undisciplined in there run fits. The Colts O Line does not do any of that

[OLD FAN MAN]

My question is why aren't we trying different combos at O-Line until we find the best combo? 

 

Yes, I realize continuity is important, but with the willingness of the coaching staff to shuffle the Center position around, why not other spots? Wasn't Grigson our GM an O-Lineman? I would think he'd be all over this huge issue. 

 

Whether our O-Line coach blows, or the talent sucks, or it's no the right combination of people, FIX IT. 

 

Remember Baltimore shuffled their O-line around, and ended up winning a Superbowl?? Remember New England traded their stud O-Lineman, and started doing terrible at the beginning of the year....? They shuffled their line around and boom, now they have a great O-Line. 

 

GET IT TOGETHER ALREADY. 

great post, wish I would have said it

[OLD FAN MAN]

Yes. But would it honestly do any good though? I feel as if our o linemen aren't experienced enough to block well for our running backs. Not to mention injuries that definitely piled up for us but none for New Englad. Pretty sickening to me, history repeating itself over and over and over again. My heart is so in this team and it is always 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

why does grigs start the season with a young inexperienced o-line, none of whom were superstars in college, and expect them to run block and protect luck against elite teams  and win?

[southwest1]

Richardson is NEVER gonna live up to that 1st round pick, most RB's won't in today's pass happy league

He'll still be a "solid" back though if used properly. Get him in open space. That play he had last year against San Diego when he broke like 7 tackles was a thing of beauty. Plays like that will tire a defense out, which would open up plays for guys like Ty Goodbye & Mr. Moncrief to burn them deep

Unless it's the Texans, then we just burn them out the gate. But everyone else, tire them out

Does a workhorse back need open space though? TR's not exactly Reggie Bush in New Orleans under Sean Payton in 2009. Bradshaw was a better back as a sledge hammer because he can actually generate yards in confined quarters. TR just can't period & if I wanted a scat back I'd push for a smaller guy with speed not a slow, mack truck. 

[southwest1]

Yeah, one sucks and the other doesn't

     I don't mean to slam any Colts player, but that line was hilarious BOTT. 

[southwest1]

Let's say Dallas called today and wanted to trade Murray even up for Trent, would you make the deal ?

Trade deadlines and all of that aside.

Don't toy with me Modern. Did Christmas come early this year? I wish. 

[BProland85]

The only way I can see our run game improving outside of hiring a new OL coach, is infusing the once used stretch play when Peyton was here.

 

Back in the Edgerrin James days, we had a good scheme to create holes for RBs...the stretch play. Ever since we stopped that, we seem to not be successful at running the ball. We are now too predictable when we run. The stretch play kept defenses on their heels because they didn't know if Peyton would hand off or play action pass. Luck is fully capable of running this.

 

It's simple guys, our predictable running scheme isn't working. Time to infuse a new scheme that keeps defenses guessing when we will run the ball or pass. It may be time to bring back the stretch play unless Pep or Chud have a better idea.

[Shive]

It's simple guys, our predictable running scheme isn't working. Time to infuse a new scheme that keeps defenses guessing when we will run the ball or pass. It may be time to bring back the stretch play unless Pep or Chud have a better idea.

Exactly! We run such a vanilla blocking scheme that is predicated on purely man-handling the guy across from you. We need more depth to our running game. Definitely more zone blocking.

[southwest1]

The only way I can see our run game improving outside of hiring a new OL coach, is infusing the once used stretch play when Peyton was here.

 

Back in the Edgerrin James days, we had a good scheme to create holes for RBs...the stretch play. Ever since we stopped that, we seem to not be successful at running the ball. We are now too predictable when we run. The stretch play kept defenses on their heels because they didn't know if Peyton would hand off or play action pass. Luck is fully capable of running this.

 

It's simple guys, our predictable running scheme isn't working. Time to infuse a new scheme that keeps defenses guessing when we will run the ball or pass. It may be time to bring back the stretch play unless Pep or Chud have a better idea.

I'm game for anything now BP85. We have to discover a reliable way to run the ball when the snow falls or we are dead in the water or at least frozen solid in mid to late December anyway. 

[BrentMc11]

Trent has a plethora of problems.

And back to the Everything Trent Richardson Thread YEE shall go.....please.   I am too damn nice these days...I said please.

[Modern]

Trent's a beast. With the right line he would own every single record in the NFL.

Is that what you wanna hear ?

[chad72]

We don't need a dominant running game, just a running game that gets between 3.5 and 4 YPC over 20-25 carries every single game to keep defenses honest, a running game capable of scoring TDs at the goal line and be efficient in the red zone so that opponents cannot tee off on Luck.

 

Our strength is still Luck and the passing game but the ability to keep Ds honest is what the running game needs to assist with to a reasonable level.

[Coffeedrinker]

We don't need a dominant running game, just a running game that gets between 3.5 and 4 YPC over 20-25 carries every single game to keep defenses honest, a running game capable of scoring TDs at the goal line and be efficient in the red zone so that opponents cannot tee off on Luck.

 

Our strength is still Luck and the passing game but the ability to keep Ds honest is what the running game needs to assist with to a reasonable level.

[Shive]

I agree, the Colts need to show a commitment to the running game, which in part means, to me at least, running the ball two sometimes even three times in a row, especially in the early part of the game. With Bradshaw out now, I'd like to see TRich get 12-15 carries a game and Boom 5-7. Or just keep TRich out there and get him 20-22 carries.

[Coffeedrinker]

Yet we crucify Pep when he calls runs consecutively...

I don't.

[Slick_Rick]

This isn't madden. This game is won and lost in the trenches. Until we have a line that is free from injury, has a good amount of experience, decent footwork, strength, speed, smarts, and the like, it's going to be rough. That's what it takes.

[CanuckColt]

We will probably never have a great running game...that requires building the O-line with road graders to run block...but these folks are not usually very good/agile at pass blocking...problem.  The best we can do is draft (high) a couple of excellent running backs who can run the ball in spite of a pass-blocking O-line.  We also need to get innovative in our run-blocking schemes like the Pats did to us with their angle blocking and unbalanced schemes rather than the vanilla run blocking that Pep knows.

[Coffeedrinker]

I get amused at all the people talking about angle blocking since Chris C. mentioned it during the game.  None have mentioned it before (well except me) but now everyone wants to act like they know exactly what it means and how to implement it and act that it would not change the entire playbook to do it.

[Gavin]

I get amused at all the people talking about angle blocking since Chris C. mentioned it during the game.  None have mentioned it before (well except me) but now everyone wants to act like they know exactly what it means and how to implement it and act that it would not change the entire playbook to do it.

I don't think the staff would have to change the entire playbook to do it, Its fairly common for coaches to add a new play here and there throughout the season to practice. Obviously we could not make it the primary Blocking scheme we used at this point in the season...I have been wanting to do much more of it since I started reading about it and watching it in action, But I think installing a set number of plays a week to practice that use angle blocking would not be uncommon for a team to do, Used in the right circumstance against an over aggressive D Lineman (such as Cory Redding) it could produce very positive results

[Coffeedrinker]

I don't think the staff would have to change the entire playbook to do it, Its fairly common for coaches to add a new play here and there throughout the season to practice. Obviously we could not make it the primary Blocking scheme we used at this point in the season...I have been wanting to do much more of it since I started reading about it and watching it in action, But I think installing a set number of plays a week to practice that use angle blocking would not be uncommon for a team to do, Used in the right circumstance against an over aggressive D Lineman (such as Cory Redding) it could produce very positive results

That is true, they could just add some plays.