Manning TD Record

[Moose Of Woe]

All right guys I brought the pitchforks and torche....wait what? WHAT? You're all hugging it out?! Drat! I missed it.

[Mameluc]

Peyton Manning won his Superbowl with 3 TDs and 7 INTs in the play offs. He can thank his team and defense for his ring.

 

Brady's rings were the result of late drives engineered by Tom. Tom's defense can thank him for their rings.

I think i read Manning faced the top 5 best Defenses on the Playoffs on that SB run(first time ever by the way, that a qb wins  sb facing the best defenses on the plyaoffs).  The defense faced the worst offenses. I'd expect the defense to have a better time.

 

The ravens game, is a good way to say...how stupid stats are with no context. That game was won by Viniateri, socring wise, but PM played more than just oK.

[JerodMayo51]

we are going to debate that the TD record (which :Peyton will set) is diluted because of Peyton's WR screen passes

 

Just heard Eric Davis on NFL AM suggest as much...

 

Does anybody here think that a 50-yard pass over the cornerback is 'less of a TD pass' than a screen to the wide out who runs the 50 yards?

 

 

 

A touchdown is a touchdown in the record book, but yes there is a big difference between a 50 yard pass over the cornerback for a touchdown and a 2 yard dump pass to an elite athlete that then takes the ball and makes a play and takes it the full 50 yards himself.

 

Both will count as a TD pass, but obviously there is a big difference as far as the effort and skill involved from a Quarterback perspective between the two.  I don't see how any sane person could deny that logic.

 

I could throw a 2 yard screen pass to an elite WR and have him go 80 yards for a TD.  I could not throw a 50 yard tight spiral into coverage with perfect placement for the receiver to make a play on it while being hunted by 300+ lbers from the defensive line.

 

So yea, there is a difference but they still count the same.

[Le Neon]

Does Brady get half credit cuz he could chuck jump balls to Randy Moss. You can dice this thing up so many ways; why bother?

[JerodMayo51]

Maybe it was because of how the '07 season ended, but that record has never seemed all that important to me. And I'm quite sure that within the next 5 or so years, someone is going to throw 60 anyway. 

 

 

I share these exact sentiments.  

 

For me the 2007 TD record from Brady was satisfying because it finally shut up all of his haters and doubters that said he didn't have the "stats" to be considered one of the greats.  

 

No one could ignore what he had done statistically that year and he did it while nearly having a perfect season which is unheard of.  It ended all debates from people who referred to Brady as a "dink and dunk system quarterback."

 

The record itself is meaningless at this point.  2007 changed my perspective quite a lot in terms of what I root for and take joy in watching the Patriots play.  Its all about being in contention and trying to get a lombardi trophy.. nothing else matters, no one will ever remember some random record that they set because someone else will come along and beat it.

 

Records are temporary, Championships last forever.   Granted, the undefeated perfect season would have been orgasmic since it would have ended with a Championship... but alas, destiny and lady luck were on the Giants side that day.  

 

You can't win them all, but they certainly do a good job of trying to

[JerodMayo51]

How many games did the Pat's win with Matt Cassel at QB?  And that's a guy that the absolute BEST thing you could say about him is that he's a game manager.  And a lot of worse things could be said about him.

 

Never understood people bringing up Matt Cassel.

 

The Patriots 2008 schedule was I believe the 2nd or 3rd easiest schedule in league history.  They did not beat a single team with a record of .500 or better.

 

To basically quickly summarize Matt Cassel...

 

He took a near perfect 18-1 team from the year before and won 7 less games with one of the easiest schedules in NFL history and missed the playoffs.

 

Thats a pretty significant drop off.

[JerodMayo51]

 

How many of the "winningest" QB's of all time were high draft picks?

 Montana - 3rd round

 Brady - 6th round

 Bradshaw - #1 overall

 

How many of the "greatest passing" QB's of all time were high draft picks?

 Elway - #1 overall

 Manning - 1st round

 Marino - #1 overall

 Favre - 2nd round

 

Theres a reason that happens. The "winningest" Qb's are put on better teams and, surprise, they win more with better teams around them.

 

 

 

I had a response to this but its not even worth it.

 

I just scratched my head after reading this and moved on.

[JerodMayo51]

And his FG kick when he failed to get them in the end zone even once.

 

hehe i do get a kick out of the Colts SB run when it comes to Adam V.  There were some Colts fans that loved to take jabs at Brady's accomplishments by suggesting that Adam V won all of those SBs.

 

 

Manning couldn't score a single TD in the playoffs against the Ravens, all 15 of their points came off of Adam V field goals.

 

 

 

Oh the irony.

[The Old Crow]

I can't answer that, and have always wished that Belichick said more at the time. By saying nothing, he invited the worst speculation.

If you honestly believe that no other teams had systems in place, similar or not, than I will not be able to persuade you even in the slightest. Howard Mudd, longtime Colts staffer, was regarded as one of the best at "stealing signals." (Maybe not recording them, of course.)

Legends say that Vince Lombardi paid guys to look through holes in fences to spy on practices for opposing teams.

Robert Kraft also gave this account to a New York Daily News columnist who wrote "Coaching Confidential: Inside the Fraternity of NFL Coaches" last year:

New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft told Myers a story of confronting Bill Belichick about taping the New York Jets' signals when the controversy arose.

"How much did this help us on a scale of 1 to 100?" Kraft asked Belichick in an excerpt from the Boston Globe.

"One," Belichick responded.

"Then you're a real *," Kraft said he told Belichick.

Kraft went on to say that taping signals was widely known around the league. Then-Jets coach Herm Edwards and assistant Donnie Henderson once waved at the cameras in 2004.

"How much do you think that helped us?" Kraft asked. "How much of a surprise was it to (Jets coach Eric) Mangini and (general manager Mike) Tannenbaum?

"You know how many teams steal signals? That's bupkis . . . We kicked (the Jets) off our roof (in 2006)."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000092652/article/why-robert-kraft-called-bill-belichick-a-*

I realize you have to consider the source there. And I realize how giddy I would be, on some level, if news broke that the NY Giants broke rules along the way in winning those two Super Bowls.

All I can say is, use your eyes. Use your judgment. If the Patriots cheated from 2000-2007, and won Super Bowls as a result, then why did they lose that playoff game to the Broncos in January 2006? Or to the Colts in 2007? Why did they miss the playoffs entirely in 2002? Why didn't we see back-to-back-to-back undefeated seasons? Just so they could make it "look good?"

Can you honestly see Belichick addressing the team and saying, "OK fellas, let's go out and lose this one so no one suspects what we're doing?"

Again, I would hate the Patriots too if they weren't the team I've been rooting for since I was a boy. I get that. I'm a Sox fan and the Pats are the Yankees of the NFL.

Honestly , three Championships since 1960 does not make the Patriots the Yankees. Heck , Baltimore has had two franchises , the Colts that won four Championships , and the Ravens two, and nobody considers us the Yankees.

[JerodMayo51]

You know, I would rather argue this stuff with Bronco fans now, who are under the impression they drafted Manning and he'll go down in history as a Bronco.

 

In truth, I don't have any ill will towards the Indianapolis Colts. I used to, but now I actually really like your team and I root for your new quarterback.

 

I just dislike Peyton Manning, for reasons I won't go into here. I dislike Peyton, and I dislike Colt fan arguments because I think what happened last year to him, with a very, very complete team, and what I know will happen this year to him, with a very, very complete team, completely refutes all of it.

 

On the bright side, Andrew Luck seems to me to have the polar opposite personality, and I really like him. Hope he has a great career.

 

 

hehe i share these sentiments..

 

 

I really like Andrew Luck, im jealous that the Colts had a chance to tank an entire season and get him.  He's a very likable guy and a very talented QB that has some serious speed that is often overlooked.

 

I've never liked Manning, probably because of the long standing rivalry between the 2 QBs and also for all the years in the early 2000's that Colts fans took turns taking a dump all over Brady and calling him a system QB like Trent Dilfer (lol!!!)   It was a heated, bitter rivalry and I still remember when the Pats beat the Colts to go on and win their 2nd Super Bowl and Irsay, Polian and crew ran to the competition committee saying that the Patriots were being too physical with them and that is the only reason they won the game..  Fast forward 1 year, after the league emphasizes the illegal contact and pass interference rule.. with Manning and company breaking all sorts of records and were the hottest thing since sliced bread... run into the Patriots and get held to 3 TOTAL points.  They actually would have completely shut Manning out and held them to 0 points had Eugene Wilson not dropped an easy pick in the end zone.

 

Great memories!  It came back around in full force though when the Colts had that comeback in 2006 in the AFCCG.  Ouch.

[JerodMayo51]

 But hey 16N0 I'm glad you can live with your QB having the biggest choke in NFL history.

 

What exactly classifies as the biggest choke in history?

[Mitch Connors]

I had a response to this but its not even worth it.

 

I just scratched my head after reading this and moved on.

Why don’t good/winning teams draft QB's in the first round?

 

Because the bad teams pick first and the bad teams very very very seldom have elite QB's. So it shouldn’t be a mystery that elite passers like Manning, Marino, Elway are drafted in the first round and to bad teams because BAD TEAMS NEED GOOD QBs. Why is it hard to understand that early picked QB’s are almost always on bad teams?

[JerodMayo51]

brady won  his first superbowl throwing 1 td pass the whole superbowl run.......  settling for field goals non stop having multiple int playoff games getting bailed out by his defense......  

 

I'll bite because theres a lull at work and im bored.

 

Brady had 2 touchdowns in that first SB run...  In the divisional round against the Raiders he lead a scoring drive in the 4th quarter and ran the ball in from about 10 or so yards out in the blizzard.

 

He got injured in the AFCCG and was replaced by Bledsoe, so you can't count a game he didn't play in against his stats.

 

His 2nd touchdown was in the Super Bowl, to go along with his game winning drive where football gurus like John Madden were saying he should just kneel and play for overtime.. instead he drove down the field and setup the game winning FG with only about 70 seconds or so of time on the clock.

 

throwing check downs or short passes to wide open wrs with no pressure isn't impressive choking 2 superbowls even in 2007 putting up 14 points in a superbowl with the offensive line and weapons he had

 

 

Another misconception.. Brady was leading the league in completions over 20 yards one year and I still remember lots of Colts fans calling him a "dink and dunk" passer.  I guess if they say it enough times they actually start to believe it, facts be darned!

 

Also, in that 2007 SB, that perfect offensive line you're referring to was completely dominated for that entire game.. Brady got murdered that game, im surprised he was able to even finish the game because they swarmed him and got huge hits on him all game long.

 

He also put together a late 4th quarter drive that put them in the lead with less than 3 minutes to play.  The defense failed to stop the Giants response, and dropped an easy interception that went right through Asante Samuels hands that would have iced the game.. then Eli gets one of the most miraculous plays in NFL history, somehow slipping out of the grip of 3-4 Pats defensive lineman and then throwing up a prayer to the middle of the field and having a WR that you couldn't pay someone $1,000,000 to point out in a lineup because of how irrelevant he was ends up catching the ball on his helmet with a defender hanging off of him.

 

Hardly what I would call a "choke" job, especially when Brady put together a long scoring drive to take the lead late in the 4th.

 

  tom bradys is not clutch he was a game manager 

 

 

Hes one of the league leaders in 4th quarter comebacks and overtime wins, so I guess pure facts completely go against that statement.

 

You should start watching some of the games this year that hes been in.. hes had to mount multiple 4th quarter comebacks just this year alone..

 

Pretty sure that defines clutch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That was fun.. back to work

[JerodMayo51]

Just curious, if those cameras were so useless, why did they do it to begin with?.

 

 

A) Obsessive compulsive disorder.. Belichick probably has closets full of stuff that hes gathered and hasn't even used yet.

 

B) It was to standardize their operations for stealing teams signals.  Yes, i said that right, they were standardizing their process for STEALING OPPONENTS SIGNALS.  The reason being?  Because stealing signals IS NOT ILLEGAL or a violation of NFL rules!!!!   They also couldn't use the game film during the course of the game, which makes the actual advantage that they got over other teams basically non existent.   

 

 

Teams have always been stealing signals.. teams are still stealing signals now.. most teams have people in the booth with binoculars on the opposing teams signal caller the entire game, note what signals they're using and what play was called.

 

Howard Mudd was known for being one of the best signal stealers in the NFL lol... but lets not let little facts and details get in the way of some good old fashion haterade!

[Yehoodi]

Honestly , three Championships since 1960 does not make the Patriots the Yankees. Heck , Baltimore has had two franchises , the Colts that won four Championships , and the Ravens two, and nobody considers us the Yankees.

 

I think GoPats was comparing the modern day version of the teams and sports and since like mid 90s to present . .. or when Kraft purchased the team and drafted Drew Bledsoe . . . since Kraft owned the team we have been to 6 SBs in 20 years, 8 AFCCG . . . so basically we are always around and nearly half the time are milling around AFCCG . . . kind of like the Yankees, always around, milling around the ALCS and so on . . . and perhaps not the most liked partly due to the team's success

[Valpo2004]

I can't answer that, and have always wished that Belichick said more at the time. By saying nothing, he invited the worst speculation.

 

If you honestly believe that no other teams had systems in place, similar or not, than I will not be able to persuade you even in the slightest. Howard Mudd, longtime Colts staffer, was regarded as one of the best at "stealing signals." (Maybe not recording them, of course.) 

 

Legends say that Vince Lombardi paid guys to look through holes in fences to spy on practices for opposing teams.

 

Robert Kraft also gave this account to a New York Daily News columnist who wrote "Coaching Confidential: Inside the Fraternity of NFL Coaches" last year:

 

New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft told Myers a story of confronting Bill Belichick about taping the New York Jets' signals when the controversy arose.

"How much did this help us on a scale of 1 to 100?" Kraft asked Belichick in an excerpt from the Boston Globe.

"One," Belichick responded.

"Then you're a real *," Kraft said he told Belichick.

Kraft went on to say that taping signals was widely known around the league. Then-Jets coach Herm Edwards and assistant Donnie Henderson once waved at the cameras in 2004.

"How much do you think that helped us?" Kraft asked. "How much of a surprise was it to (Jets coach Eric) Mangini and (general manager Mike) Tannenbaum?

"You know how many teams steal signals? That's bupkis . . . We kicked (the Jets) off our roof (in 2006)."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000092652/article/why-robert-kraft-called-bill-belichick-a-*

I realize you have to consider the source there. And I realize how giddy I would be, on some level, if news broke that the NY Giants broke rules along the way in winning those two Super Bowls.

All I can say is, use your eyes. Use your judgment. If the Patriots cheated from 2000-2007, and won Super Bowls as a result, then why did they lose that playoff game to the Broncos in January 2006? Or to the Colts in 2007? Why did they miss the playoffs entirely in 2002? Why didn't we see back-to-back-to-back undefeated seasons? Just so they could make it "look good?" 

Can you honestly see Belichick addressing the team and saying, "OK fellas, let's go out and lose this one so no one suspects what we're doing?"

Again, I would hate the Patriots too if they weren't the team I've been rooting for since I was a boy. I get that. I'm a Sox fan and the Pats are the Yankees of the NFL. 

 

I am using my judgement, as I said knowing the defensive signals isn't going to win the games for you.  But if it doesn't help that much then why would you even bother doing so, especially when doing so is against the rules and later cost them a draft pick.

 

Of course Belicheck is going to say on a scale of 1 to 100 it was only a 1 in the amount it helped.  If he and his buddies at ESPN can make it sound like it isn't a big deal and didn't mean much then everyone still think's he's a genius who won 3 superbowls and they discount it as though he just violated some technicality.

 

But if it was no big deal why did Belichick set the record for the largest fine in NFL history, why did they beyond that fine the patriots and take away their first round draft pick, the first time that happened since 1971??

 

This wasn't a minor technicality that was broken.  

[Gramz]

:topic:

So................ How many TD's will Peyton throw, wasn't that the Question?

[Fx Stryker]

What exactly classifies as the biggest choke in history?

 

The whole 18-1 season. Greatest offense of all-time can't score more than 14 points. The defense stuck to their season average of 17 points.

[The Old Crow]

I think GoPats was comparing the modern day version of the teams and sports and since like mid 90s to present . .. or when Kraft purchased the team and drafted Drew Bledsoe . . . since Kraft owned the team we have been to 6 SBs in 20 years, 8 AFCCG . . . so basically we are always around and nearly half the time are milling around AFCCG . . . kind of like the Yankees, always around, milling around the ALCS and so on . . . and perhaps not the most liked partly due to the team's success

Well at least the Patriots have been winning within a salary cap versus the Yankees and Red Sox bloated payroll victories.

[braveheartcolt]

Just read all 5 pages. Wow. It's like comparing Scooby Doo to Wacky Races.

Impossible, pointless, and just a tad subjective.

[Shane Bond]

A) Obsessive compulsive disorder.. Belichick probably has closets full of stuff that hes gathered and hasn't even used yet.

 

B) It was to standardize their operations for stealing teams signals.  Yes, i said that right, they were standardizing their process for STEALING OPPONENTS SIGNALS.  The reason being?  Because stealing signals IS NOT ILLEGAL or a violation of NFL rules!!!!   They also couldn't use the game film during the course of the game, which makes the actual advantage that they got over other teams basically non existent.   

 

 

Teams have always been stealing signals.. teams are still stealing signals now.. most teams have people in the booth with binoculars on the opposing teams signal caller the entire game, note what signals they're using and what play was called.

 

Howard Mudd was known for being one of the best signal stealers in the NFL lol... but lets not let little facts and details get in the way of some good old fashion haterade!

 

If its not illegal, i wonder why they fined the Pats and Belichick. Do you reckon the league hates the Patriots?.

[The Old Crow]

I think GoPats was comparing the modern day version of the teams and sports and since like mid 90s to present . .. or when Kraft purchased the team and drafted Drew Bledsoe . . . since Kraft owned the team we have been to 6 SBs in 20 years, 8 AFCCG . . . so basically we are always around and nearly half the time are milling around AFCCG . . . kind of like the Yankees, always around, milling around the ALCS and so on . . . and perhaps not the most liked partly due to the team's success

Ellsbury just went to the Yankees ! Lol

[Yehoodi]

Well at least the Patriots have been winning within a salary cap versus the Yankees and Red Sox bloated payroll victories.

 

yes . . . I am happy for our Red Sox success, but am not a fan of the no salary cap in baseball . . .

[Yehoodi]

Ellsbury just went to the Yankees ! Lol

 

wow, just google it, thanks for the info . . .wow lol . . .

[The Old Crow]

wow, just google it, thanks for the info . . .wow lol . . .

Don't feel bad, we dumped Jim Johnson in a salary dump for a triple A second basemen. I like Angelos like I liked Bob Irsay !

[bayone]

Here's a thought... :topic:

The thread is about Peyton's TD's this year...and if he'll Break the Current Record.

Why oh Why, does every thread about Peyton have to be turned into a thread about "Tom Terrific"..... No matter what, no-one can take away what he is accomplishing this year, after 4 neck surgeries, and the fact that some, including Peyton himself, wondered if he'd ever play again. It's pretty incredible to watch, and I'm taking it all in, one game at a time.

He's still my favorite, and always will be. No-one will ever change my mind, and I'll never change anyone else's mind, so I don't even try.

There will never be a cut-in-stone, unanimous decision or definitive GOAT.. Just enjoy these guys, and what they do on the field for our enjoyment week in, and week out.

 

i am glad in a way  i no longer have time to post / comment  save maybe 1 early or quite sparingly, Just getting to scan this thread  last 1or 2 pages was  to much %(*&)*, I saw your comment quoted and had to find it to acknowledge it

 

yankees Vs Red Sox, Baseball free agency trades just made, another Peyton Vs Tom argument, etc etc etc shish 

 

((  see  Dear Friends please read when can   http://forums.colts.com/topic/23594-dear-friends-please-read-when-can/  )))

 

[TAPLOOK]

Don't feel bad, we dumped Jim Johnson in a salary dump for a triple A second basemen. I like Angelos like I liked Bob Irsay !

Feel bad? I never feel bad for the Yankees. Cashman will never learn.

[amfootball]

Ellsbury just went to the Yankees ! Lol

Typical Yanks move that will kill them in 3 years when Ellsbury can no longer run and they are still paying for 4 more years. Cashman has no idea how to build a champion. No young guys in the pipeline, mediocre pitching, an aging players everywhere that they are paying millions to.

[amfootball]

Well at least the Patriots have been winning within a salary cap versus the Yankees and Red Sox bloated payroll victories.

Come on now. Every team that loses uses the bloated pay roll yet teams like the As and Cards seem to figure it out every year. It still comes down to knowing how to build a contending team year and year out.

[GoPats]

Honestly , three Championships since 1960 does not make the Patriots the Yankees. Heck , Baltimore has had two franchises , the Colts that won four Championships , and the Ravens two, and nobody considers us the Yankees.

 

That's fair to say, I do realize that 27 World Series titles is pretty untouchable/unmatched... 

 

I guess I just meant it more in the sense that very few teams in the NFL have been good for as long as the Patriots have. This is their 13th straight winning season... other teams have cycled through good and bad stretches more than once during that time. But I do get what you're saying sir. 

[Shane Bond]

What a disastrous year for a yankees fan. Hopefully next year is better.

 

 I dont want to live with the glory of 60s.

[JerodMayo51]

The whole 18-1 season. Greatest offense of all-time can't score more than 14 points. The defense stuck to their season average of 17 points.

 

I guess I don't see it that way. Brady lead them to the go ahead touchdown at the end of that game, but the defense failed to stop the Giants from going the full distance of the field and scored a touchdown with the help of a dropped interception, a miracle catch off a helmet and horrible coverage by Hobbs (and bad coaching leaving him 1 on 1 against Burress).

 

The Giants played them close in week 17 that year, but it was a high scoring game.  It was still a close game in the Super Bowl but it was more strategic and defensive

[amfootball]

The whole 18-1 season. Greatest offense of all-time can't score more than 14 points. The defense stuck to their season average of 17 points.

Hard to have that type of scoring in the post-season. None of the Pats post-season wins that year were by a ton of points. A choke would indicate that they let up a big lead during the game when in fact they were flat out beat by a ferocious Giants defense and an O good enough to make the plays at the end.

 

And didn't Manning only put up 3 points vs the Pats in 2003 - the year he threw 49 TDs? It happens.

[Shane Bond]

Hard to have that type of scoring in the post-season. None of the Pats post-season wins that year were by a ton of points. A choke would indicate that they let up a big lead during the game when in fact they were flat out beat by a ferocious Giants defense and an O good enough to make the plays at the end.

 

And didn't Manning only put up 3 points vs the Pats in 2003 - the year he threw 49 TDs? It happens.

 

Sure, everyone accepts it was a bad game for Colts but you guys never accept Brady sucked in that SB. Just admit it.

 

When you have Wes Welker and Randy Moss in the same team, you are 18-0, you laugh at the Giants during the media and you score 14 points. Thats an epic choke.

[Shane Bond]

I guess I don't see it that way. Brady lead them to the go ahead touchdown at the end of that game, but the defense failed to stop the Giants from going the full distance of the field and scored a touchdown with the help of a dropped interception, a miracle catch off a helmet and horrible coverage by Hobbs (and bad coaching leaving him 1 on 1 against Burress).

 

The Giants played them close in week 17 that year, but it was a high scoring game.  It was still a close game in the Super Bowl but it was more strategic and defensive

Stopping a team to 17 points in a game is great defense.

 

When your offense averages over 33 points through out the year and you score a grand total of 14 points in the biggest game, thats epic fail.

 

Stop toe tapping on this. Facts are facts.

[-JJ-]

What a disastrous year for a yankees fan. Hopefully next year is better.

 

 I dont want to live with the glory of 60s.

They just paid 150 mil 7 yrs for a Red Sox player so..........

[GoPats]

I am using my judgement, as I said knowing the defensive signals isn't going to win the games for you.  But if it doesn't help that much then why would you even bother doing so, especially when doing so is against the rules and later cost them a draft pick.

 

Of course Belicheck is going to say on a scale of 1 to 100 it was only a 1 in the amount it helped.  If he and his buddies at ESPN can make it sound like it isn't a big deal and didn't mean much then everyone still think's he's a genius who won 3 superbowls and they discount it as though he just violated some technicality.

 

But if it was no big deal why did Belichick set the record for the largest fine in NFL history, why did they beyond that fine the patriots and take away their first round draft pick, the first time that happened since 1971??

 

This wasn't a minor technicality that was broken.  

 

Let me ask a question, and I'm not being combative or condescending, so if it comes off that way I apologize...

 

How much do you actually KNOW about "Spygate?" And about the practice of taping and/or stealing signals prior to 2006/2007? Check out this article, which was published BEFORE the Patriots were busted in the first week of the 2007 season.

 

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1997-08-30/sports/9708300159_1_dolphins-johnson-dolphins-offensive-coordinator-signals

 

Howard Mudd is mentioned pretty prominently.

 

I cannot answer to the question of why the Patriots did it if - according to Belichick - it didn't help them that much. I can only guess that it was done because, as a coach, he is as thorough as they come. They had files on all NFL teams and coaches, probably to look for consistencies/patterns. "Hey, five years ago these guys did this, maybe they're going to try it again," etc-etc. Plus there was nothing clandestine about what they were doing that day in New York. If Belichick was trying to deliberately cheat the rules, why have a guy on the sidelines, in Patriots gear, holding a camera? If this was as malicious as a lot of you believe, then the way it went down makes him by far the dumbest "cheater" in the history of cheating. 

 

Either way, insinuations that they've continued to do this kind of thing are completely baseless. Defensive signals are now radioed in, just as offensive signals have been for several years.

 

On top of that... the general consensus is that the Patriots won Super Bowls on the strength of their defense, not their offense. And stealing offensive play calls would have been impossible (again, since those have been radioed in for years). 

[Shane Bond]

They just paid 150 mil 7 yrs for a Red Sox player so..........

And they are hard balling with our own Robinson Cano who may go down as one of the best second baseman ever. If they loose him, it would be a disaster.

[GoPats]

Stopping a team to 17 points in a game is great defense.

 

When your offense averages over 33 points through out the year and you score a grand total of 14 points in the biggest game, thats epic fail.

 

Stop toe tapping on this. Facts are facts.

 

If this is what you believe and you're not just baiting, then you must have a pretty negative opinion about Peyton Manning's years with Indianapolis then! 

[OffensivelyPC]

Come on now. Every team that loses uses the bloated pay roll yet teams like the As and Cards seem to figure it out every year. It still comes down to knowing how to build a contending team year and year out.

It would still be nice if everyone were on the same playing field as far as a salary cap went.  The thing I love about the NFL is that it prides itself on parity.  While the NFL has its perennial powerhouses, even those teams will sooner or later find itself toward the bottom half ot the league in 20 years while the bottome half finds itself at the top. 

 

MLB on the other hand (and even the NBA to a smaller extent, but not as bad with the soft cap), there are some teams that know what they are doing and have gotten better at perfecting their ability to bring talent out of the draft consistently.  Notwithstanding, I just find it patently unfair that those teams have to do it on 1/3 of the budget as teams like the Yanks and Sox.  I put it on the same level as the AQs in the BCS.  While those conferences are better year in and year out, what's the harm in putting everyone on the same playing field with the same rules and have a small playoff with 6 or 8 undefeated/1 loss teams?  I get that money is the reason why, but from a competition and fairness standpoint, there's really no good reason as to why.