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unitaswestand
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If this is what you believe and you're not just baiting, then you must have a pretty negative opinion about Peyton Manning's years with Indianapolis then! 

Alright, lets not deviate from the topic.

 

I will ask a direct simple question and you answer.

 

Brady's performance of 14 points in the SB, how do you rate it?. 

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Alright, lets not deviate from the topic.

 

I will ask a direct simple question and you answer.

 

Brady's performance of 14 points in the SB, how do you rate it?. 

 

Def not mind blowing by any stretch, but I would assume thats acceptable. Problem is he is being held to the 50TD standard. "Well he didn't throw 4 TDs its an abomination...he choked!"

 

He wasn't mind blowing but when his team needed him, he milked the clock to under 3min, going 8-11 for 71yards and a TD.....The the Eli miracle thing happened, and that was that..... 

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Alright, lets not deviate from the topic.

 

I will ask a direct simple question and you answer.

 

Brady's performance of 14 points in the SB, how do you rate it?. 

 

Not as bad as the end score might dictate . . . when one looks at a stat, ones needs to look beyond just the raw stat, like for example when I pointed out in another thread Manning and the Broncos ran a lot in the first three qtrs. of the NE game and so 150 yards for the entire game is not as bad as a typical 150 yard game . . . 

 

similarly, in SB42 both teams had fewer possession than normal as there were several long drives . . . the pats had 8 possession outside of the last possession with 29 seconds to go, and one of those possessions was under two minutes in the first half . . .

 

with these 8 possession the Pats scored two TDs and were in position for a FG attempt from the 31 yard line and BB goes for it on 4th and 13 as opposed to kicking a FG . .. so basically, the Pats offense got them a score or in scoring position for 3 out of 8 possessions, during the regular season the score above 50% so around an average of 4 out of 8 possession . . . so bottom line, there were basically one possession scoring off their regular season pace . . . which for the playoff is not that bad imo . . .

 

true they had that last possession which started with 29 seconds to go, and no one had ever scored started a possession that late in a game . . . if you can find me a game that one has score starting a possession with 29 seconds to go in a playoff game, I will tip my cap . . . but otherwise that last possession is not held against the pats in my book . . .  

 

so bottom line is that the pats had basically one less score than their regular season pace, which was not bad btw, so for me if one is only off by one score from that pace, and it is in the playoffs where teams play you a tad tougher, his performance is not as bad as it may initially seem looking at the numbers out of context . . .

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It would still be nice if everyone were on the same playing field as far as a salary cap went.  The thing I love about the NFL is that it prides itself on parity.  While the NFL has its perennial powerhouses, even those teams will sooner or later find itself toward the bottom half ot the league in 20 years while the bottome half finds itself at the top. 

 

MLB on the other hand (and even the NBA to a smaller extent, but not as bad with the soft cap), there are some teams that know what they are doing and have gotten better at perfecting their ability to bring talent out of the draft consistently.  Notwithstanding, I just find it patently unfair that those teams have to do it on 1/3 of the budget as teams like the Yanks and Sox.  I put it on the same level as the AQs in the BCS.  While those conferences are better year in and year out, what's the harm in putting everyone on the same playing field with the same rules and have a small playoff with 6 or 8 undefeated/1 loss teams?  I get that money is the reason why, but from a competition and fairness standpoint, there's really no good reason as to why. 

I agree but the PA in MLB is just too strong to ever allow a cap. And while the teams with the bucks have a leg up, I think the consistency of smaller market teams like the As, Rays, Cards, etc show that championships are still won by smart GMs, good coaching and the right chemistry of players.

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Hard to have that type of scoring in the post-season. None of the Pats post-season wins that year were by a ton of points. A choke would indicate that they let up a big lead during the game when in fact they were flat out beat by a ferocious Giants defense and an O good enough to make the plays at the end.

And didn't Manning only put up 3 points vs the Pats in 2003 - the year he threw 49 TDs? It happens.

Hard to have that type of scoring? They scored pretty well against their two previous opponents in much harsher conditions, and better defenses. The Super Bowl was in a dome. Don't Pats fans, or the trolls not all, like to say Peyton is only so great because it's so easy to score in a dome?

The offense didn't hold their end while the defense did.

And I've always admitted Peyton should have played better in the 04 playoff game. The offense was disappointing that day. Especially following the high scoring week before.

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Hard to have that type of scoring? They scored pretty well against their two previous opponents in much harsher conditions, and better defenses. The Super Bowl was in a dome. Don't Pats fans, or the trolls not all, like to say Peyton is only so great because it's so easy to score in a dome?

The offense didn't hold their end while the defense did.

And I've always admitted Peyton should have played better in the 04 playoff game. The offense was disappointing that day. Especially following the high scoring week before.

Exactly.

 

No one expects Brady to be perfect in all the games but the way these fans here defend him on his failures and  blame their own defense and their coaches, is down right comical.

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Hard to have that type of scoring? They scored pretty well against their two previous opponents in much harsher conditions, and better defenses. The Super Bowl was in a dome. Don't Pats fans, or the trolls not all, like to say Peyton is only so great because it's so easy to score in a dome?

The offense didn't hold their end while the defense did.

And I've always admitted Peyton should have played better in the 04 playoff game. The offense was disappointing that day. Especially following the high scoring week before.

Peyton is a dome guy just like Brees. Numbers and records don't lie.

 

 

How many SB's did the Manning led Colts make it to again? 

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Exactly.

 

No one expects Brady to be perfect in all the games but the way these fans here defend him on his failures and  blame their own defense and their coaches, is down right comical.

 

What's comical about it is that they sound like Manning fans. Since it's been a while since they won a Super Bowl, they're starting to understand what it's like to have some blemishes on their postseason record with a great QB. This is a crowd that spent four years talking about how Brady was perfect in the postseason. Then after 2005, it's okay because they'd won three SBs in four years, one loss won't kill them, and besides, Manning still doesn't have one. After 2006, that's okay, 3 >>> 1. After 2007, it's okay, Brady has the stats now, and at least he's never gone 1 and done. And 16-0 is still really impressive.

 

Come 2009, the tune started to change, as they got further and further from their era of invincibility. They started to see the composition of their roster change, the team wasn't as strong defensively as it used to be, they lost some postseason games due to poor play by the offense, they lost home playoff games as favorites after poor defensive performances, they even lost to the Jets.

 

There's nothing wrong with any of that; all that is normal. But I think some Pats fans got hit with a more heavy dose of reality than they had prepared themselves for. 

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Exactly.

 

No one expects Brady to be perfect in all the games but the way these fans here defend him on his failures and  blame their own defense and their coaches, is down right comical.

 

I don't know about other pats fans, but when I view the points I just look for consistency among the masses . . . I don't care how one slices the pie or the credits, but just please be consistent . . . for example if one wishes claim that the early SB wins were "because of a championships defense" this same one individual when viewing games later in the decade needs to remember the defense's contribution in the 2006 AFCCG, SB 42 and SB 46, all three of which Brady, like Manning with the Jets a few years ago, was sitting on the sidelines after helping his team get a lead only to watch the opponent drive down for a winning drive in their last possession of the game . . .

 

I do not view it in absolutes as some may, I understand the Ds contribution in the early part of the decade but also understand their failure to stop the opponent on three key drives, two of which would of garnered two rings and a 19-0 season to boot . . .

 

so people on both sides of the idle need to be consistent . . . it can't be Brady is great and the D let him down later, nor can it be the D did for him and then he choked . . .

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Peyton is a dome guy just like Brees. Numbers and records don't lie.

 

 

How many SB's did the Manning led Colts make it to again? 

Thats why he is 23-5 so far in Denver. You are right on the numbers part. They dont lie.

 

Yeah, Manning is the only player and coach for Colts. All their failures are purely his fault.

 

You are making a lot of sense like your previous comment of 10 is great than 12. Keep going.

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I don't know about other pats fans, but when I view the points I just look for consistency among the masses . . . I don't care how one slices the pie or the credits, but just please be consistent . . . for example if one wishes claim that the early SB wins were "because of a championships defense" this same one individual when viewing games later in the decade needs to remember the defense's contribution in the 2006 AFCCG, SB 42 and SB 46, all three of which Brady, like Manning with the Jets a few years ago, was sitting on the sidelines after helping his team get a lead only to watch the opponent drive down for a winning drive in their last possession of the game . . .

 

I do not view it in absolutes as some may, I understand the Ds contribution in the early part of the decade but also understand their failure to stop the opponent on three key drives, two of which would of garnered two rings and a 19-0 season to boot . . .

 

so people on both sides of the idle need to be consistent . . . it can't be Brady is great and the D let him down later, nor can it be the D did for him and then he choked . . .

Sure, its a team effort. 

 

Victory or losses are a team responsibility.

 

Team as in T E A M.

 

Isnt that what Belichick preaches.

 

You sure dont belong to those fans i was referring to.

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What's comical about it is that they sound like Manning fans. Since it's been a while since they won a Super Bowl, they're starting to understand what it's like to have some blemishes on their postseason record with a great QB. This is a crowd that spent four years talking about how Brady was perfect in the postseason. Then after 2005, it's okay because they'd won three SBs in four years, one loss won't kill them, and besides, Manning still doesn't have one. After 2006, that's okay, 3 >>> 1. After 2007, it's okay, Brady has the stats now, and at least he's never gone 1 and done. And 16-0 is still really impressive.

 

Come 2009, the tune started to change, as they got further and further from their era of invincibility. They started to see the composition of their roster change, the team wasn't as strong defensively as it used to be, they lost some postseason games due to poor play by the offense, they lost home playoff games as favorites after poor defensive performances, they even lost to the Jets.

 

There's nothing wrong with any of that; all that is normal. But I think some Pats fans got hit with a more heavy dose of reality than they had prepared themselves for. 

 

when you find me a QB that has his team with the lead late in a SB only to watch his team relinquish the lead on the opponents last drive of the game, send me an email . . . there are not that many and Brady has done it not once but twice, I know Kurt Warner has done it twice (SB 36 and SB 43), but there are not many . . . just there is likely not many QB who have done this same thing in a AFCCG or NFCCG, but again Brady has done it once . . . 

 

Its not like the Pats won three rings and fell off the planet . . . as I have stated on many occasions, we had solid win in 2004, would likely repeat if we had the chance, but the 01, 03, 07, 11 wins/losses came down to a play or two from being a SB or loss . . . so one can say what one wants but when you have three rings in your pocket and have driven your team so deep in the playoffs that you are a play from 2 more rings (and a third if you think we could be the 06 bears) . . . at least at which is shows that the three rings we not a fluke but a portion of an overall career in which lady luck shine on you 50% of the time, and given a play or two is a coin flip it is not surprising that we won 3 out of 6 . . .

 

for those who every want to get into a deep discussion on the matter see beyond the surface, just as people see beyond Manning 150 yards in the recent NE/Den game . . . when one steps back at the career of Brady without a jersey color in their glasses, there will see a solid career with three rings and other deep runs that demonstrate the formers were not a fluke . . .

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Sure, its a team effort. 

 

Victory or losses are a team responsibility.

 

Team as in T E A M.

 

Isnt that what Belichick preaches.

 

You sure dont belong to those fans i was referring to.

 

yes I am in line with BB . . . and I agree with you on your points . . . I will also point out that I am in further in agreement with BB points that stats are for losers and that "personal" stats of players are also a team accomplishment and responsibility . . . sure the players have something to do with their stats just as they do with their contribution to wins . . . but the other 10 players help too . . . whenever some asks BB about how a player did in the game, if the player did well, he will say "ya sure he did well, but in order for him to do that the blockers have block, the other WRs need to read the D and run their routes, the QB has to find the best WR and read the D, the QB has to make the throw, the WR has to make the catch and so on . . .

 

so yes their is an element of T E A M in wins as much as there is an element of T E A M in personal stats of players, the later of which finds little recognition on this fan forum . . .

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Thats why he is 23-5 so far in Denver. You are right on the numbers part. They dont lie.

 

Yeah, Manning is the only player and coach for Colts. All their failures are purely his fault.

 

You are making a lot of sense like your previous comment of 10 is great than 12. Keep going.

Wes isn't signed or paid for next year yet. He could blow a knee or worse before the years out.

I should say Peyton is a warm weather no wind/dome QB. He played 1 game in Denver under freezing and lost. Yes it was the one and done again game. He's 23-5 in Denver? I don't think so.

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Wes isn't signed or paid for next year yet. He could blow a knee or worse before the years out.

I should say Peyton is a warm weather no wind/dome QB. He played 1 game in Denver under freezing and lost. Yes it was the one and done again game. He's 23-5 in Denver? I don't think so.

 

There he continues again. How lovely.

 

Yes, it was all Peyton's fault for every loss. Another one enters the comic list.

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:topic:

So................ How many TD's will Peyton throw, wasn't that the Question?

Four games left and he's at 41, correct?

 

In the Broncos' final game, he'll be at 50 TDs in the 4th quarter. He'll throw the would-be-record-breaking-TD to Welker, but Wes, in a fit of internal conflict, decides to deliberately drop the ball because he's secretly still in love with Tom Brady and doesn't want to see his record get broken!  

 

Nah, that won't happen.  :D

 

I'll go with 11 more, so he ends up at 52. Pretty epic season no matter what color your Sunday jersey is.  ;)

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So about the topic, I thought these 3 weeks were the toughest stretch for him when it came to trying to stay on pace for breaking the record. I think he made it through that stretch good overall. Individually he only had one great performance, but it made up for the previous 2 weeks for the sake of simply keeping him within reach. He has already torched Oakland and SD this year so he could do it again if his 2nd performance against the Chiefs is anything to go by. The Texans and Titans have good D's on paper(in terms of yards) so they might be the bigger challenge when it comes to Peyton racking up moreTD passes. But as long as the Patriots keep winning I think he will definitely break the record as that will force him to play the entirety of his 4 remaining games instead of possibly resting like he did a lot in Indy.

 

For reference Peyton had 45 after 13 games in 2004 and Brady had 45 after 13 games in 2007. Peyton of this year doesn't have to keep up with that pace, he just has to stay consistent. And it would help if did not have a 0 TD game like he and Brady both did in their final 3 games of their record breaking season. And no need to remind me how his poor his post season record is or that a Super Bowl win is all that matters. I'm going to stay on topic and won't engage in that discussion.

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when you find me a QB that has his team with the lead late in a SB only to watch his team relinquish the lead on the opponents last drive of the game, send me an email . . . there are not that many and Brady has done it not once but twice, I know Kurt Warner has done it twice (SB 36 and SB 43), but there are not many . . . just there is likely not many QB who have done this same thing in a AFCCG or NFCCG, but again Brady has done it once . . . 

 

Its not like the Pats won three rings and fell off the planet . . . as I have stated on many occasions, we had solid win in 2004, would likely repeat if we had the chance, but the 01, 03, 07, 11 wins/losses came down to a play or two from being a SB or loss . . . so one can say what one wants but when you have three rings in your pocket and have driven your team so deep in the playoffs that you are a play from 2 more rings (and a third if you think we could be the 06 bears) . . . at least at which is shows that the three rings we not a fluke but a portion of an overall career in which lady luck shine on you 50% of the time, and given a play or two is a coin flip it is not surprising that we won 3 out of 6 . . .

 

for those who every want to get into a deep discussion on the matter see beyond the surface, just as people see beyond Manning 150 yards in the recent NE/Den game . . . when one steps back at the career of Brady without a jersey color in their glasses, there will see a solid career with three rings and other deep runs that demonstrate the formers were not a fluke . . .

 

I have no problem with Brady or the Pats. Brady is fantastic, and so is his team. 

 

My point is that, early in the Brady era, Pats fans had it easy. Since you guys haven't won a Super Bowl in a while, your arguments are looking a lot more like Colts fans arguments have for a long time. All of a sudden, these reasons you're explaining so eloquently are no longer "excuses." 

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The bottom feeder opponents that the Broncos face towards the end of the year could try to stop Manning from breaking the record.. If they just drop everyone into coverage inside the redzone and use light packages, Manning will have to check into run plays and reduce his passing total

 

 

This could be a fun tradition.. Manning breaks record, Brady breaks Manning's record, Manning breaks Brady's record, Brady breaks it again and so on while we all argue over who is the greatest lol :)

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I'm confused.  Wasn't this topic about whether or not Manning will break the TD record?  

 

Weird.  

 

I think he will (break the record), by the way.  He wont be able to rest since those pesky Patriots just seem to want to win football games and the Broncos defense is less than impressive right now.  Gonna have to put up points to win, and secure the #1 + home field advantage.

 

 

In other news, I like cake better than pie.  Pie's great, but sometimes I just want the frosting, y'know?  Especially chocolate frosting.  yum....

 

 

Carry on.

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The bottom feeder opponents that the Broncos face towards the end of the year could try to stop Manning from breaking the record.. If they just drop everyone into coverage inside the redzone and use light packages, Manning will have to check into run plays and reduce his passing total

 

 

This could be a fun tradition.. Manning breaks record, Brady breaks Manning's record, Manning breaks Brady's record, Brady breaks it again and so on while we all argue over who is the greatest lol :)

This is why we watch football...wether its Manning or Brady we are talking about two of the greatest qbs basically painting masterpieces on almost each and every play....stuff they do (like Tom's comebacks this year) and Peytons TDs (especially last week...he had about 3 TERRIBLE THROWS but a good 20 balls that were just majestic) and then watch young developing qbs like Luck and Wilson and Foles and a few others take steps into that "greatness" pool. The stories change year to year but the LEAD characters (Manning and Brady) remain. Wether you feel Brady is the greatest or Peyton it is just plain AMAZING to watch them play...seriously just watch them closely and see how they read the defense...and make these passes...and lead their team to wins....just inspiring. No one really should be hating on either as they have given us moments the NFL will never forget and helped build this newest generation into the sport that it is today....hard to argue they didn't usher in the NFL as America's sport....the BOTH of them. And both from everything I can tell (a few mistakes sure) are great great men...both classy guys and great role models for kids...never met a more nicer and authentic athlete than when I met Peyton and I'm sure Tom is the same.

 

As for the TD thing....I predict 52 as well...I don't think he will go crazy these final four weeks because I know the team is trying to keep themselves healthy for the playoffs and want to run the ball more...(get playoff ready). I do think the Texans that final week will be a tougher test than what people think....it will be the last game of the year and kinda a SB of sorts for them...to take out their frustrations of a season lost....wouldn't surprise me one bit if them or SD jumps up and bites the Broncos and puts them into a second place spot.

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Un-flippin'Believable......

6 pages of Peyton and Brady Bashing, followed by Glorification followed by more Bashing...

Poor Andrew... I hope you're paying attention, because it won't be long before the

"Two years ago we sucked for Luck ~ and Now we Suck with Luck" t-shirts appear....

Fans can be so fickle....

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Un-flippin'Believable......

6 pages of Peyton and Brady Bashing, followed by Glorification followed by more Bashing...

Poor Andrew... I hope you're paying attention, because it won't be long before the

"Two years ago we sucked for Luck ~ and Now we Suck with Luck" t-shirts appear....

Fans can be so fickle....

Not to mention 6 pages totally :offtopic:        :topic:  For the record I think Peyton will break the record. :applause:

 

Sorry Holden I like pie better than cake. haha

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Hard to have that type of scoring? They scored pretty well against their two previous opponents in much harsher conditions, and better defenses. The Super Bowl was in a dome. Don't Pats fans, or the trolls not all, like to say Peyton is only so great because it's so easy to score in a dome?

The offense didn't hold their end while the defense did.

And I've always admitted Peyton should have played better in the 04 playoff game. The offense was disappointing that day. Especially following the high scoring week before.

I am not sure what your point is. Brady's post-season record does not need any defending. He has the most wins all time at 17 against 7 losses. His legacy is secure whether he ever wins another playoff game.

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I am not sure what your point is. Brady's post-season record does not need any defending. He has the most wins all time at 17 against 7 losses. His legacy is secure whether he ever wins another playoff game.

Point is Brady is not this superman as you portray him.

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Never said he was superman but his playoff record needs no defense.

Yet a defense is what most equates to a good playoff record.

 

In Tom's case:

10-1 with a great one. (2001-2005)

7-6 with a decent to good one (2006-current)

 

People might argue the Pats' D has sucked in recent years, but given the amount of turnovers they generate/field position I strongly disagree.

 

When guys like Rex Grossman or Trent Dilfer's teams can make, or in Baltimore's case win the Superbowl it shows just how important defense is.

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Yet a defense usually equates to a good playoff record.

 

10-1 with a great one. (2001-2005)

7-6 with a decent to good one (2006-current)

A good defense equates to winning period. But still in this era the team is more predicated on the QB and his ability to not only play well but play good situational football. Tom has been the best in this area.

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A good defense equates to winning period. But still in this era the team is more predicated on the QB and his ability to not only play well but play good situational football. Tom has been the best in this area.

I'd say Aaron Rodgers, but to each their own. For a guy with no O-line to speak of he's done extremely well until it got him killed.

 

The most important single position is QB, that's for certain. However the most important aspect of a team is the defensive unit, as that's what wins championships. Nearly every SB championship team outside the greatest show on turf proves this. Winning in the playoffs is predicated on how good your team is, mostly the defensive unit. Not solely the QB.

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I'd say Aaron Rodgers, but to each their own. For a guy with no O-line to speak of he's done extremely well until it got him killed.

Rodgers has kind of come back down to earth since his 2011 season that was superb. I will be interested to see how he does the next 5-7 years. I do think his team is mediocre at best and his GM has not drafted well either. But his leadership is not on par with Brady or Manning.

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 But his leadership is not on par with Brady or Manning.

Well he has that championship belt. I think his teammates are jealous. Not feelin' that mustache, though.

 

And I agree the Packers are mediocre at best these days. He'll do his part getting them to the playoffs every/almost every year if they play at this level. Then the team will promptly fall on their faces against a team with a D like SF or god help them Seattle. Throw Carolina in there, too.

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Rodgers has kind of come back down to earth since his 2011 season that was superb. I will be interested to see how he does the next 5-7 years. I do think his team is mediocre at best and his GM has not drafted well either. But his leadership is not on par with Brady or Manning.

Funny how the media keeps trying to hype up the NEXT BIG THING wether its Aaron or Andrew or Cam or Russell but they are FORCED to keep coming back to Peyton and Tom and Drew as the best....and its not really even close. Granted they won't be here much longer but these "OLD" guys are getting it done better than ever! They aren't going to be forced out without a fight. I really worry one day though they are going to take a really really big hit...and that will be that though...scares me.

 

Aaron has soo much potential and a rocket of an arm...he does do more with less and that running game looked great this year....I think they were building to do something special until he and Mathews went down but that defense is no where near SB quality enough and that OL barely is passable. All that said it wasn't until the rule changes of the mid 00's that really ushered in the team going as far as their qb takes them...and since then neither really Peyton or Tom has won it all so go figure! If anything the rule changes have helped the mediocre qbs more than the elite ones in my eyes....making getting open easier and the ability to pass much better.

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A good defense equates to winning period. But still in this era the team is more predicated on the QB and his ability to not only play well but play good situational football. Tom has been the best in this area.

The best??. Here we go again.

 

And you mean when Belichick and Josh McDaniels tell him what to do in situations?. 

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A good defense equates to winning period. But still in this era the team is more predicated on the QB and his ability to not only play well but play good situational football. Tom has been the best in this area.

 

Sorry I'll be revolutionary, and HoFer since his 5th year over a QB who happened to be on three championship teams.

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Sorry I'll be revolutionary, and HoFer since his 5th year over a QB who happened to be on three championship teams.

You can believe whatever you want. But like I said before no QB just happens to be on three championship teams and also get that team back to the big game two more times. His Pats teams where not close to the talent of the other dynasties especially at the offensive skill position and he went to the pro bowl two of the three champ years.

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