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unitaswestand

Manning TD Record

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You say that as if the Pats had a better record than  2-2 against playoff teams.  They don't.  Everything else you said falls into the "swap the two QBs teams and we'll see who has the better playoff record."  Ever since Brady hasn't had a top 5 defense, he hasn't been any better than Peyton in the playoffs.  I always find it funny how condescending some of you Pats fans are, but you're blind support of Brady is no better than Colts fans blind support of Peyton.

 

Ever since Belicheck got caught cheating, he hasn't won a SB either.  

 

Did his cheating win him every game?  No but against the good teams in the playoffs, it might have just given him enough of an edge.

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Ever since Belicheck got caught cheating, he hasn't won a SB either.  

 

Did his cheating win him every game?  No but against the good teams in the playoffs, it might have just given him enough of an edge.

I'm not going to even open that can of worms.  All I'll say is, they still had to play well enough to win the game, but is knowing what the other team is calling an advantage?  Absolutely it is.

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Ever since Belicheck got caught cheating, he hasn't won a SB either.  

 

Did his cheating win him every game?  No but against the good teams in the playoffs, it might have just given him enough of an edge.

Please tell me you're kidding?

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There's that... but there's also the fact that he played before the salary cap era when NFL teams with money could stack their teams like the NY Yankees.

 

If that was still allowed today, Brady or Manning could be playing with Calvin Johnson and every other good receiver in the league, just by throwing money at them, and completely destroying every passing and TD record in the books.

 

The NFL play offs is also more competitive today than it was back then because of it. A few of Montana's Superbowls were very lopsided because the 49'ers were just miles better. The blow out against Denver comes to mind.

 

Today all the play off teams are much more evenly matched. Despite the rule changes to the game making it more passer friendly, it's hard to argue that the NFL over all isn't a lot more competitive and talented than it was then.

I hear you on this which is why I think Brady getting to five SBs with different teams is more impressive than Joe's SB runs and Joe has said this as well but winning championships is hard in any era. The niners had to beat the iron of the NFC those years which were like the SB and he had two close SBs with the Bengals which he pulled out.

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As far as the conversation about championships and playoff victories, I don't think you can use that the measure a QB.  

 

You have to have good teams around your QB to do that.  

 

And some teams with elite QB's grow too accustomed to their QB doing everything that they don't fix obvious problems.

 

How many games did the Pat's win with Matt Cassel at QB?  And that's a guy that the absolute BEST thing you could say about him is that he's a game manager.  And a lot of worse things could be said about him.

 

Matt Cassel played a much softer schedule and got the AFC West where as the year before Brady had to play the very difficult AFC North. He also got the teeth of the NFC while Cassel got the scrubs of the NFC. Despite that, with a team Tom went 18-0 with, Cassel didn't even make the play offs and the season was pathetic. That isn't even close to a fair comparison.

 

Manning had the #1 defense in football in 2007 and didn't make the Superbowl. Brady had the worst defense in football in 2011 and did make the Superbowl.

 

QB's win and lose games more so than any other position on the field.

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Ever since Belicheck got caught cheating, he hasn't won a SB either.  

 

Did his cheating win him every game?  No but against the good teams in the playoffs, it might have just given him enough of an edge.

 

Belichick never got caught cheating. He was found guilty of being in violation of league rules by having a guy with a giant camera standing rather overtly at a Jets practice.

Big difference that I wouldn't expect to you make the effort to distinquish between. This also happened in week 2 of 2007.

 

We won our Superbowls in 2001, 2003 and 2004.

 

There's a lot of imaginary dots you're taking the liberty to connect

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You say that as if the Pats had a better record than  2-2 against playoff teams.  They don't.  Everything else you said falls into the "swap the two QBs teams and we'll see who has the better playoff record."  Ever since Brady hasn't had a top 5 defense, he hasn't been any better than Peyton in the playoffs.  I always find it funny how condescending some of you Pats fans are, but you're blind support of Brady is no better than Colts fans blind support of Peyton.

I don't necessarily disagree with you but Brady has gotten deeper into the playoffs than Peyton post 2005. Brady has been to two SBs (same as Peyton) and four AFC champ games (two more than Peyton) and of course Brady only had two one and done's compared to five for Peyton.

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How many of the "winningest" QB's of all time were high draft picks?


 Montana - 3rd round


 Brady - 6th round


 Bradshaw - #1 overall


 


How many of the "greatest passing" QB's of all time were high draft picks?


 Elway - #1 overall


 Manning - 1st round


 Marino - #1 overall


 Favre - 2nd round


 


Theres a reason that happens. The "winningest" Qb's are put on better teams and, surprise, they win more with better teams around them.


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I don't necessarily disagree with you but Brady has gotten deeper into the playoffs than Peyton post 2005. Brady has been to two SBs (same as Peyton) and four AFC champ games (two more than Peyton) and of course Brady only had two one and done's compared to five for Peyton.

He's right. Brady has done nothing:-)

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I don't necessarily disagree with you but Brady has gotten deeper into the playoffs than Peyton post 2005. Brady has been to two SBs (same as Peyton) and four AFC champ games (two more than Peyton) and of course Brady only had two one and done's compared to five for Peyton.

In that time frame Manning won a superbowl.. I noticed you left that out

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How many of the "winningest" QB's of all time were high draft picks?

 Montana - 3rd round

 Brady - 6th round

 Bradshaw - #1 overall

How many of the "greatest passing" QB's of all time were high draft picks?

 Elway - #1 overall

 Manning - 1st round

 Marino - #1 overall

 Favre - 2nd round

Theres a reason that happens. The "winningest" Qb's are put on better teams and, surprise, they win more with better teams around them.

What?

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In that time frame Manning won a superbowl.. I noticed you left that out

Sure and he won that on the strength of his D same as Brady.

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Sure and he won that on the strength of his D same as Brady.

And his FG kick when he failed to get them in the end zone even once.

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How many of the "winningest" QB's of all time were high draft picks?

 Montana - 3rd round

 Brady - 6th round

 Bradshaw - #1 overall

 

How many of the "greatest passing" QB's of all time were high draft picks?

 Elway - #1 overall

 Manning - 1st round

 Marino - #1 overall

 Favre - 2nd round

 

Theres a reason that happens. The "winningest" Qb's are put on better teams and, surprise, they win more with better teams around them.

 

 

This is such a typical Colt fan argument that makes absolutely zero sense and is based on absolutely nothing, and means absolutely zilch.

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I don't necessarily disagree with you but Brady has gotten deeper into the playoffs than Peyton post 2005. Brady has been to two SBs (same as Peyton) and four AFC champ games (two more than Peyton) and of course Brady only had two one and done's compared to five for Peyton.

Well sure.  My only point was that it's not quite the brightline difference that Pats16n0 was making.  Yeah, QBs are the only position with a win/loss record attached to it, and it is the most important position in the game.  So you won't see me copmlaining that Brady gets credit for his playoff record, but at the same token, the QB position is made infinitely "easier" when it has a top end defense.  The only times Brady had a top 5 defense, they won superbowls.  The only time Manning had a top 5 (I think it was 6th, but you get the point), he wont he superbowl. 

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Peyton Manning won his Superbowl with 3 TDs and 7 INTs in the play offs. He can thank his team and defense for his ring.

 

Brady's rings were the result of late drives engineered by Tom. Tom's defense can thank him for their rings.

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Well sure.  My only point was that it's not quite the brightline difference that Pats16n0 was making.  Yeah, QBs are the only position with a win/loss record attached to it, and it is the most important position in the game.  So you won't see me copmlaining that Brady gets credit for his playoff record, but at the same token, the QB position is made infinitely "easier" when it has a top end defense.  The only times Brady had a top 5 defense, they won superbowls.  The only time Manning had a top 5 (I think it was 6th, but you get the point), he wont he superbowl. 

 

Yeah, and it's also a lot easier to have this record and that record when your team is completely stacked on offense at the expense of your D, so should we take all of Peyton's individual accomplishments you're all so proud of and throw them out the window? Brady didn't have anything remotely close to Peyton's offensive weapons until 2007, at which point he torched the entire NFL, your #1 defense included, and came the flukiest play in NFL history away from going 19-0.

 

You guys like to act like its our fault you guys went heavy on the O and didn't do anything with it. The fact is, if your QB didn't shrink in the big games, that elite offense might have been a lot more valuable when it counted most, and we could be having a completely different discussion right now.

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Well sure.  My only point was that it's not quite the brightline difference that Pats16n0 was making.  Yeah, QBs are the only position with a win/loss record attached to it, and it is the most important position in the game.  So you won't see me copmlaining that Brady gets credit for his playoff record, but at the same token, the QB position is made infinitely "easier" when it has a top end defense.  The only times Brady had a top 5 defense, they won superbowls.  The only time Manning had a top 5 (I think it was 6th, but you get the point), he wont he superbowl. 

I know what you are saying but Brady also had very mediocre offensive talent and still average in the mid 20's for points. I think what sets him apart is that he won all those rings without one HoF player at the offensive skill position. None of the other dynasties can say that. And as good as his defenses were they were far from the 1985 Bears or 2000 Ravens. In 2001 they were the classic bend don't break defense. Gave up a boat load of yards but not a ton of points.

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And his FG kick when he failed to get them in the end zone even once.

you may want to check that stat

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Peyton Manning won his Superbowl with 3 TDs and 7 INTs in the play offs. He can thank his team and defense for his ring.

 

Brady's rings were the result of late drives engineered by Tom. Tom's defense can thank him for their rings.

Well, that 1 TD and 1 INT the entire 2001 playoff run was astounding. 

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Well, that 1 TD and 1 INT the entire 2001 playoff run was astounding. 

Ha. Good one. He actually had two TDs. You forgot the one he rushed for against the Raiders in the snow bowl. Yes, Brady did acutally run for it too not a QB sneak. ;)

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Yeah, and it's also a lot easier to have this record and that record when your team is completely stacked on offense at the expense of your D, so should we take all of Peyton's individual accomplishments you're all so proud of and throw them out the window? Brady didn't have anything remotely close to Peyton's offensive weapons until 2007, at which point he torched the entire NFL and came the flukiest play in NFL history away from going 19-0.

 

You guys like to act like its our fault you guys went heavy on the O and didn't do anything with it

You pretty much made my point for me.  Since you have gone heavy O, you haven't measured up to when you had a strong D, which is what I said.  But I don't get how you put down my argument about shoulda woulda coulda, and then say you would have been 19-0 but for a flukey play.  You're basically doing the exact same thing you criticize me for.

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Ha. Good one. He actually had two TDs. You forgot the one he rushed for against the Raiders in the snow bowl. Yes, Brady did acutally run for it too not a QB sneak. ;)

lol back when our pocket passing QBs actually ran on occasion.  They're old farts now.

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lol back when our pocket passing QBs actually ran on occasion.  They're old farts now.

Brady just slides now with his leg in the air. :)

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Brady just slides now with his leg in the air. :)

lol that is still one of the funniest controversial plays I've seen in a while.  Total Ty Cobb like.

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I know what you are saying but Brady also had very mediocre offensive talent and still average in the mid 20's for points. I think what sets him apart is that he won all those rings without one HoF player at the offensive skill position. None of the other dynasties can say that. And as good as his defenses were they were far from the 1985 Bears or 2000 Ravens. In 2001 they were the classic bend don't break defense. Gave up a boat load of yards but not a ton of points.

Well, to be honest, what sets him apart is that he has 3 rings.  In the end, who really cares how you get them as long as you get them.  I mean, Emmitt Smith is in the HOF because he ran behind one of the best OLs and FBs of all time.  But ultimately, he gets credit for the numbers, despite how good his OL was.  Barry Sanders on the other hand did it all by himself.  While more people will say Sanders is better than Smith, there's no denying that one had a better team around him and Sanders might have run for even more yards than Smith.  But the numbers are what they are.  Smith was a Cowboy, Sanders was a Lion.  Same thing here, but with rings.  Maybe Peyton gets more rings with Belicheck and the Patriots, maybe he doesn't, but there's no denying that Brady has 3 rings with Belicheck and hte Patriots.  Just the way it is. 

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This is such a typical Colt fan argument that makes absolutely zero sense interesting point with Peekskilland is based on absolutely nothing, and means absolutely zilch.

Such a typical Pats fan response to an argument which doesn't put championships first when rating a quarterback. I thought it was an interesting point with perhaps too few examples. Feel free to respond to the arguement given that shortcoming, if you think you can.

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You know, I would rather argue this stuff with Bronco fans now, who are under the impression they drafted Manning and he'll go down in history as a Bronco.

 

In truth, I don't have any ill will towards the Indianapolis Colts. I used to, but now I actually really like your team and I root for your new quarterback.

 

I just dislike Peyton Manning, for reasons I won't go into here. I dislike Peyton, and I dislike Colt fan arguments because I think what happened last year to him, with a very, very complete team, and what I know will happen this year to him, with a very, very complete team, completely refutes all of it.

 

On the bright side, Andrew Luck seems to me to have the polar opposite personality, and I really like him. Hope he has a great career.

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Well, to be honest, what sets him apart is that he has 3 rings.  In the end, who really cares how you get them as long as you get them.  I mean, Emmitt Smith is in the HOF because he ran behind one of the best OLs and FBs of all time.  But ultimately, he gets credit for the numbers, despite how good his OL was.  Barry Sanders on the other hand did it all by himself.  While more people will say Sanders is better than Smith, there's no denying that one had a better team around him and Sanders might have run for even more yards than Smith.  But the numbers are what they are.  Smith was a Cowboy, Sanders was a Lion.  Same thing here, but with rings.  Maybe Peyton gets more rings with Belicheck and the Patriots, maybe he doesn't, but there's no denying that Brady has 3 rings with Belicheck and hte Patriots.  Just the way it is. 

I am with you on this except that the Manning Colts are not comparable to the Sanders Lions. The Colts routinely won more regular season games than the Pats while Manning was passing for 49 TDs among other star wars numbers. His teams were plenty good to win but were often out played for one reason or another. I think that is what makes his post-season record so baffling. Sanders rarely ever got to the post-season but Manning was there year after year usually as the #1 or #2 seed and then lost in the first round.

 

There is no question that Brady had the more rounded team and a better HC but those Colts teams were dominant teams as well that could not figure out how to get it done in Jan.

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You know, I would rather argue this stuff with Donkey fans now, who are under the impression they drafted Manning and he'll go down in history as a Bronco.

 

In truth, I don't have any ill will towards the Indianapolis Colts. I used to, but now I actually really like your team and I root for your new quarterback.

 

I just dislike Peyton Manning, for reasons I won't go into here. I dislike Peyton, and I dislike Colt fan arguments because I think what happened last year to him, with a very, very complete team, and what I know will happen this year to him, with a very, very complete team, completely refutes all of it.

 

On the bright side, Andrew Luck seems to me to have the polar opposite personality, and I really like him. Hope he has a great career.

Hypothetically speaking........  Say we were to agree with you,  Would you Go Away...??

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5. Marino

Thats my list

Another reason I take regular season stats with a grain of salt is because it largely depends on strength of schedule.

Can this be anymore hypocritical? Jeez just let your hate flow.

Tis the season to be jolly. Trollolololololol.

I seriously want to hear your reason to defend why the biggest playoff failure is number five on your list.

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Hypothetically speaking........  Say we were to agree with you,  Would you Go Away...??

 

Only after a long winded victory speech :thmup:

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Can this be anymore hypocritical? Jeez just let your hate flow.

Tis the season to be jolly. Trollolololololol.

I seriously want to hear your reason to defend why the biggest playoff failure is number five on your list.

 

Marino was more revolutionary in the passing attack for his time, and played for an over all crappier team at a time when quarterbacks weren't protected to the extent they are today. He was the Peyton of his day, I suppose, just a little more revolutionary. I suppose it's debatable. I'm not overly dedicated to my #4 and #5

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50+ TDs are impressive not matter which way you slice it. Unlike Colts fans who want to try to tarnish Brady's 50 Tds in 2007, I can freely admit Manning's effort this year is just as extraordinary no matter if they were 2 yard TDs, screens, or bombs or if they came in garbage time. And like I have said all along, he is doing this after four neck surgeries. Hard not to be impressed.

Like i said before, you are making a lot of sense for a change today :)

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Ok, so this is your home forum, and not mine, so I'm trying not to get overly hostile here, but you really want to have this conversation.

 

First of all, yes, quarterbacks do have win/loss ratios. Everyone understands this except for Peyton apologists and they purposely fail to understand it for the sole intention of trying to diminish Tom Brady's accomplishments to make Peyton look better.

 

Here's a serious reality check for you.

 

Do you think subjective MVP awards and a few passing records, impressive as they are, make Peyton Manning GOAT over Joe Montana? If so, that is a delusional line of thinking, period. It's Tom Brady that is compared to Joe Montana, and thus in the conversation for all time GOAT, and so the only reason that Peyton Manning, very wrongly, even sneaks into the conversation is because people compare and debate Tom Brady and Peyton Manning because they are the best of their generation.

 

However, Montana is (or at least was) the reigning GOAT of all time quarterbacks. Remove Brady from the conversation and Colts fans are trying to compare a quarterback with one lonely championship, an abyssmal post season record, and a reputation for choking in big games, with Joe Montana. Why? Because he has some Marino-esque passing achievements and won a few arbitrary and subjective awards (MVPs).

 

No, and again, No.

 

Tom Brady is the one that is compared to Joe Montana because of his post season wins, performances, and Superbowls.

 

Peyton Manning piggy backs his way into the conversation on Tom Brady's shoulders.

 

You are deviating from the topic.

 

I asked a very specific question and you answered Brady performed bad because there was no Gronk last year in the AFC Championship game. In other words, Brady failed because of the lack of star players around him. In other words, its a team sport. Lets leave it at that.

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This is such a typical Colt fan argument that makes absolutely zero sense and is based on absolutely nothing, and means absolutely zilch.

 

Let me explain this but i dont have high hopes of you understanding it.

 

When you are drafted at 199, your team is already good. It also helps the team not to worry about cap issues with QB ( Russell Wilson is an example , similar to Brady ). Belichick built and had a great defense.

 

No 1 overall pick goes to a team which was last in the league which means its a crappy team.

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Peyton Manning won his Superbowl with 3 TDs and 7 INTs in the play offs. He can thank his team and defense for his ring.

 

Brady's rings were the result of late drives engineered by Tom. Tom's defense can thank him for their rings.

 

He throwed and caught the ball himself. Gotcha. No one in the team and coaches have nothing to do with it. Adam Vinateiri was totally useless too. And Tuck rule and spygate didnt do anything either. 

 

Its all one man Brady. Dont know why Kraft is having the other 52 players and coaches. 

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