If you had to pick, which HOF inductee (class of 2013) would you want on your team?

[Dustin]

Larry Allen

Cris Carter

Curley Culp

Johnathan Ogden

Bill Parcells

Warren Sapp

Dave Robinson

[BOTT]

Warren Sapp

[Gavin]

well since my team is the Colts and we need Guard help at the moment, give me Larry Allen

[jvan1973]

Carter, all he did was catch touchdowns

[MAC]

1) Johnathan Ogden

2) Curley Culp

3) Warren Sapp

4) Larry Allen
5) Cris Carter

?) Dave Robinson

[jamesie jr]

I'd have to say either Allen or Ogden.

[pacolts56]

If I absolutely had to pick only one of them....it would be Jonathan Ogden.

[amfootball]

It it just me or did this class of players seem weak? I am still not sure Cater should have gotten it and I always thought Sapp was overrated.

 

I would take Parcells in a heartbeat if Belichick were to leave. I loved the tuna.

[bayone]

Jonathan Ogden

[21isSuperman]

Either Ogden or Allen

[BOTT]

It it just me or did this class of players seem weak? I am still not sure Cater should have gotten it and I always thought Sapp was overrated.

 

I would take Parcells in a heartbeat if Belichick were to leave. I loved the tuna.

It's just you

[IndyTrav]

Def. Ogden, then Allen.

Carter isnt a HoF in my eyes.

[supremecoltsfan300]

Carter, guy was an absolute beast at WR. Had amazing hands and could make sideline catches look easy

[IndyTrav]

Carter, guy was an absolute beast at WR. Had amazing hands and could make sideline catches look easy

So can Reggie, and hes no HoF.

Fun fact. Cris Carter played 15seasons in the NFL. He only led his own team in rec. yards 5 times....Reggie has played 12 seasons, and led his team 7x......

Reggie is about 900yards and 140rec short of Carter in 3 less years.

The repercussions of allowing Carter in the HoF are going to be pretty far reaching for several players.

[supremecoltsfan300]

So can Reggie, and hes no HoF.

Fun fact. Cris Carter played 15seasons in the NFL. He only led his own team in rec. yards 5 times....Reggie has played 12 seasons, and led his team 7x......

Reggie is about 900yards and 140rec short of Carter in 3 less years.

The repercussions of allowing Carter in the HoF are going to be pretty far reaching for several players.

HOF is not all about numbers. It's about impact on the game.

Carter broke the record for receptions in a single season, caught a ton of TDs, never had a great QB, and was one of the best receivers in the 90s. He also helped shaped Moss into what he became.

Numberwise, Carter played in an era that was still different from the current one. Also, this isnt meant to mean that Reggie isnt also capable of being a HOF himself one day.

[BOTT]

HOF is not all about numbers. It's about impact on the game.

Carter broke the record for receptions in a single season, caught a ton of TDs, never had a great QB, and was one of the best receivers in the 90s. He also helped shaped Moss into what he became.

Numberwise, Carter played in an era that was still different from the current one. Also, this isnt meant to mean that Reggie isnt also capable of being a HOF himself one day.

So Carter helped shape Moss into a jerk? Lol

[dgambill]

It is very very close between Larry Allen and Ogden but I'm going with Ogden. A HOF left tackle is so so so very rare...he was lock down couldn't even get close enough to read the qbs number good. Allen was a beast in the running game but also had more help on that OL (not that he needed any) and since we pass more than run now...means LT is more important.  I take Ogden.

 

This class was fine....Allen, Ogden, and Sapp are no doubt HOF in my book....they were TITANS of the NFL when they played. Each was far far far an away the greatest at their position during their prime. Carter I think was marginal...and agree it opens the door for a TON of wrs in my book. Parcells I'm surprised wasn't in already...just a legend of the game.

[Orlando Fan]

Ogden

[throwing BBZ]

Larry Allen

Cris Carter

Curley Culp

Johnathan Ogden

Bill Parcells

Warren Sapp

Dave Robinson

 

Larry Allen and Ogden were certainly all time Great dominate players, but i will take the defensive pressure up the middle of the also all-time GREAT Warren Sapp.

Bob Lilly, one of my very favorites, welcome him in.

[throwing BBZ]

It is very very close between Larry Allen and Ogden but I'm going with Ogden. A HOF left tackle is so so so very rare...he was lock down couldn't even get close enough to read the qbs number good. Allen was a beast in the running game but also had more help on that OL (not that he needed any) and since we pass more than run now...means LT is more important.  I take Ogden.

 

This class was fine....Allen, Ogden, and Sapp are no doubt HOF in my book....they were TITANS of the NFL when they played. Each was far far far an away the greatest at their position during their prime. Carter I think was marginal...and agree it opens the door for a TON of wrs in my book. Parcells I'm surprised wasn't in already...just a legend of the game.

 

if Norwood hit that FG, would 1 time SB winner Parcels be in?

[IndyTrav]

HOF is not all about numbers. It's about impact on the game.

Carter broke the record for receptions in a single season, caught a ton of TDs, never had a great QB, and was one of the best receivers in the 90s. He also helped shaped Moss into what he became.

Numberwise, Carter played in an era that was still different from the current one. Also, this isnt meant to mean that Reggie isnt also capable of being a HOF himself one day.

Sure, its not ALL about #'s. But in terms of QB/RB/WR it his a huge factor.

Lets not pretend his QBs were garbage. Moon was a HoF. Gannon was a future MVP. Cunningham was a player of the year, and All Pro in Minny, Culpepper made 3 PBs, and Brad Johnson 2....So from 1990-2001 Minny had 4 Pro Bowls and 1 All Pro.....thats pretty darn good....Those Qbs accounted for over 77% of his career TDs....

And as for the TDs, its such a mirage. He benefited from a system that targeted him from inside the 10. He caught an absurd amount of his TDs, over 42% of his career totals, inside the 9 yard line....For reference here are the Top 8 receiving TD leaders....Rice had 31%, Marvin had 36%, Moss has 28% (At 6-4 and probably the highest jumping WR ever!) TO was at 32%...Tony G who is a TE is at 45%!...Largent had 18%, Tim Brown was at 28%.....

So with 8 of the best touchdown catchers in NFL history, 5 of them in varying decades, playing styles, and teams all came within 8% of each other...Another, Largent, was bomb catching machine...and Gonzalez who is the greatest TE of all time, barely gets past him (and in fact has fewer TDs inside the 10 than Carter 55-47)

You turn around and say its not about stats, but the only thing with Carter people mention are his TDs and rec. totals....He was never considered a transcendent talent (Rice), he never had game breaking speed (Brown Marvin Moss) and he was never physically imposing (TO, Moss, Irving). Not only that he was widely considered to be a jerk, and disliked by his own teammates. As well as being cut by a team in the prime of his career....Name one amazing C.Carter play. One amazing C.Carter moment. One amazing C.Carter game without going to youtube....He was completely forgetable and is only making it in on #s alone. Writing the story of the NFL, you can not mention Carters name once, and it will have zero impact on the history of the game...Hence why he is not a HoF....

[amfootball]

Sure, its not ALL about #'s. But in terms of QB/RB/WR it his a huge factor.

Lets not pretend his QBs were garbage. Moon was a HoF. Gannon was a future MVP. Cunningham was a player of the year, and All Pro in Minny, Culpepper made 3 PBs, and Brad Johnson 2....So from 1990-2001 Minny had 4 Pro Bowls and 1 All Pro.....thats pretty darn good....Those Qbs accounted for over 77% of his career TDs....

And as for the TDs, its such a mirage. He benefited from a system that targeted him from inside the 10. He caught an absurd amount of his TDs, over 42% of his career totals, inside the 9 yard line....For reference here are the Top 8 receiving TD leaders....Rice had 31%, Marvin had 36%, Moss has 28% (At 6-4 and probably the highest jumping WR ever!) TO was at 32%...Tony G who is a TE is at 45%!...Largent had 18%, Tim Brown was at 28%.....

So with 8 of the best touchdown catchers in NFL history, 5 of them in varying decades, playing styles, and teams all came within 8% of each other...Another, Largent, was bomb catching machine...and Gonzalez who is the greatest TE of all time, barely gets past him (and in fact has fewer TDs inside the 10 than Carter 55-47)

You turn around and say its not about stats, but the only thing with Carter people mention are his TDs and rec. totals....He was never considered a transcendent talent (Rice), he never had game breaking speed (Brown Marvin Moss) and he was never physically imposing (TO, Moss, Irving). Not only that he was widely considered to be a jerk, and disliked by his own teammates. As well as being cut by a team in the prime of his career....Name one amazing C.Carter play. One amazing C.Carter moment. One amazing C.Carter game without going to youtube....He was completely forgetable and is only making it in on #s alone. Writing the story of the NFL, you can not mention Carters name once, and it will have zero impact on the history of the game...Hence why he is not a HoF....

Great stuff with these stats. I never thought Carter deserved to be in the HoF. I remember him saying once on Mike and Mike that the only QB he respected that he played with was Moon because he was on his same intellectual level. Geesh...

[supremecoltsfan300]

Sure, its not ALL about #'s. But in terms of QB/RB/WR it his a huge factor.

Lets not pretend his QBs were garbage. Moon was a HoF. Gannon was a future MVP. Cunningham was a player of the year, and All Pro in Minny, Culpepper made 3 PBs, and Brad Johnson 2....So from 1990-2001 Minny had 4 Pro Bowls and 1 All Pro.....thats pretty darn good....Those Qbs accounted for over 77% of his career TDs....

And as for the TDs, its such a mirage. He benefited from a system that targeted him from inside the 10. He caught an absurd amount of his TDs, over 42% of his career totals, inside the 9 yard line....For reference here are the Top 8 receiving TD leaders....Rice had 31%, Marvin had 36%, Moss has 28% (At 6-4 and probably the highest jumping WR ever!) TO was at 32%...Tony G who is a TE is at 45%!...Largent had 18%, Tim Brown was at 28%.....

So with 8 of the best touchdown catchers in NFL history, 5 of them in varying decades, playing styles, and teams all came within 8% of each other...Another, Largent, was bomb catching machine...and Gonzalez who is the greatest TE of all time, barely gets past him (and in fact has fewer TDs inside the 10 than Carter 55-47)

You turn around and say its not about stats, but the only thing with Carter people mention are his TDs and rec. totals....He was never considered a transcendent talent (Rice), he never had game breaking speed (Brown Marvin Moss) and he was never physically imposing (TO, Moss, Irving). Not only that he was widely considered to be a jerk, and disliked by his own teammates. As well as being cut by a team in the prime of his career....Name one amazing C.Carter play. One amazing C.Carter moment. One amazing C.Carter game without going to youtube....He was completely forgetable and is only making it in on #s alone. Writing the story of the NFL, you can not mention Carters name once, and it will have zero impact on the history of the game...Hence why he is not a HoF....

 

Okay here's my rebuttal to your argument:

 

1. Carter was cut by the Eagles because of his substance abuse problems. Not because he didn't have talent.  I would also say he didn't even enter his prime (career-wise) till he was about 27 (which happened to occur after he got his substance abuse problem under control).

 

2. Looking at Carter's QBs...

 

As a Viking from 1990-1992, his QB was Rich Gannon who's best year in that stretch featured 2278 yards and 16 TDs.

As a Viking in 1993, his QB was Jim McMahon who's numbers in that year were 1968 yards and 9 TDs.

As a Viking in 1994, his QB was Warren Moon who's numbers in that year were 4264 yards and 18 TDs.

As a Viking in 1995, his QB was again Warren Moon, but this year he played like a HOF and had 4228 yards and 33 TDs.

As a Viking in 1996, his QBs were Warren Moon (1610 yards, 7 TDs) and Brad Johnson (2258 yards, 17 TDs).

As a Viking in 1997, his QB was Brad Johnson (3036 yards, 20 TDs).

As a Viking in 1998, his QB was Randall Cunningham (3704 yards, 34 TDs)

As a Viking in 1999, his main QB was Jeff George (2816 yards, 23 TDs)

As a Viking from 2000-2001, his QB was Daunte Culpepper, who's only good year was 2000 (3937 yards, 33TDs)

 

When he was with the Vikings, he only had 4 seasons where his QB played really well (1994, 1995, 1998, 2000) out of 12. That's not exactly a lot.

 

3. I don't know what his teammates and others liking him have to do with the HOF. I don't think many people like T.O. at all, yet he is without question a HOF. Personally, I don't really like carter that much either, but that doesn't mean he isn't a HOF.

 

4. It shouldn't  matter whether a player was a "transcendent talent" or "game-breaking speed" or "physical imposing." Those are all just attributes of a player, they don't describe how good a NFL player actually was. Guys like Hines Ward or Wes Welker (not saying they are HOFs) have none of those 3 attributes yet they were/are great receivers.

The one thing Carter did possess was amazing hands, he could catch almost anything thrown near him and rarely ever dropped a pass (which is the most important quality of a WR imo).

 

5. Carter was part of the highest scoring offense of all time and that is a part of NFL history. Carter also mentored Moss and did play a role in shaping him into one of the three greatest WRs ever.

 

The problem with the HOF imo is that the WR group is too exclusive while the QB group is too inclusive. I don't think there is any other WR (who is eligible at the moment for the HOF)  more deserving than Carter.

[oldunclemark]

Easy.  Cris Carter...the best pass catcher in the modern history of the NFL...

[BOTT]

Okay here's my rebuttal to your argument:

 

1. Carter was cut by the Eagles because of his substance abuse problems. Not because he didn't have talent.  I would also say he didn't even enter his prime (career-wise) till he was about 27 (which happened to occur after he got his substance abuse problem under control).

 

2. Looking at Carter's QBs...

 

As a Viking from 1990-1992, his QB was Rich Gannon who's best year in that stretch featured 2278 yards and 16 TDs.

As a Viking in 1993, his QB was Jim McMahon who's numbers in that year were 1968 yards and 9 TDs.

As a Viking in 1994, his QB was Warren Moon who's numbers in that year were 4264 yards and 18 TDs.

As a Viking in 1995, his QB was again Warren Moon, but this year he played like a HOF and had 4228 yards and 33 TDs.

As a Viking in 1996, his QBs were Warren Moon (1610 yards, 7 TDs) and Brad Johnson (2258 yards, 17 TDs).

As a Viking in 1997, his QB was Brad Johnson (3036 yards, 20 TDs).

As a Viking in 1998, his QB was Randall Cunningham (3704 yards, 34 TDs)

As a Viking in 1999, his main QB was Jeff George (2816 yards, 23 TDs)

As a Viking from 2000-2001, his QB was Daunte Culpepper, who's only good year was 2000 (3937 yards, 33TDs)

 

When he was with the Vikings, he only had 4 seasons where his QB played really well (1994, 1995, 1998, 2000) out of 12. That's not exactly a lot.

 

3. I don't know what his teammates and others liking him have to do with the HOF. I don't think many people like T.O. at all, yet he is without question a HOF. Personally, I don't really like carter that much either, but that doesn't mean he isn't a HOF.

 

4. It shouldn't  matter whether a player was a "transcendent talent" or "game-breaking speed" or "physical imposing." Those are all just attributes of a player, they don't describe how good a NFL player actually was. Guys like Hines Ward or Wes Welker (not saying they are HOFs) have none of those 3 attributes yet they were/are great receivers.

The one thing Carter did possess was amazing hands, he could catch almost anything thrown near him and rarely ever dropped a pass (which is the most important quality of a WR imo).

 

5. Carter was part of the highest scoring offense of all time and that is a part of NFL history. Carter also mentored Moss and did play a role in shaping him into one of the three greatest WRs ever.

 

The problem with the HOF imo is that the WR group is too exclusive while the QB group is too inclusive. I don't think there is any other WR (who is eligible at the moment for the HOF)  more deserving than Carter.

You lost some cred by saying Moss is one of the 3 greatest receivers of all time.

[GoColts8818]

For the Colts?  Sapp, we've been trying to find a DT since what when Goose left town?

[BOTT]

For the Colts?  Sapp, we've been trying to find a DT since what when Goose left town?

Too bad sapp stunk in a 34

[T Y Goodbye]

Ogden who only allowed 26 sacks in 177 games..that would virtually assure that our QB's blindside is protected and give them one important thing to not to really have to worry about. If we had both Ogden at LT and Allen at left guard at the same time....WOW..

 

Carter had awesome hands, but he had a long history for a while with substance abuse and on and off field issues..He grew up when finding a higher power, but though I respected him, I never really liked him, and the Colts in the past years haven't really had a receiver problem.

 

Sapp was a beast, but a head case as well..

 

I saw Curley Culp play, but as my altzheimers gets worse (j/k) I know him more by reputation, than i did of his playing game or style..

 

Parcells was a great coach..

 

I would just go with Odgen first, and Allen second..the rest can go with other teams than the Colts.

[amfootball]

Okay here's my rebuttal to your argument:

 

1. Carter was cut by the Eagles because of his substance abuse problems. Not because he didn't have talent.  I would also say he didn't even enter his prime (career-wise) till he was about 27 (which happened to occur after he got his substance abuse problem under control).

 

2. Looking at Carter's QBs...

 

As a Viking from 1990-1992, his QB was Rich Gannon who's best year in that stretch featured 2278 yards and 16 TDs.

As a Viking in 1993, his QB was Jim McMahon who's numbers in that year were 1968 yards and 9 TDs.

As a Viking in 1994, his QB was Warren Moon who's numbers in that year were 4264 yards and 18 TDs.

As a Viking in 1995, his QB was again Warren Moon, but this year he played like a HOF and had 4228 yards and 33 TDs.

As a Viking in 1996, his QBs were Warren Moon (1610 yards, 7 TDs) and Brad Johnson (2258 yards, 17 TDs).

As a Viking in 1997, his QB was Brad Johnson (3036 yards, 20 TDs).

As a Viking in 1998, his QB was Randall Cunningham (3704 yards, 34 TDs)

As a Viking in 1999, his main QB was Jeff George (2816 yards, 23 TDs)

As a Viking from 2000-2001, his QB was Daunte Culpepper, who's only good year was 2000 (3937 yards, 33TDs)

 

When he was with the Vikings, he only had 4 seasons where his QB played really well (1994, 1995, 1998, 2000) out of 12. That's not exactly a lot.

 

3. I don't know what his teammates and others liking him have to do with the HOF. I don't think many people like T.O. at all, yet he is without question a HOF. Personally, I don't really like carter that much either, but that doesn't mean he isn't a HOF.

 

4. It shouldn't  matter whether a player was a "transcendent talent" or "game-breaking speed" or "physical imposing." Those are all just attributes of a player, they don't describe how good a NFL player actually was. Guys like Hines Ward or Wes Welker (not saying they are HOFs) have none of those 3 attributes yet they were/are great receivers.

The one thing Carter did possess was amazing hands, he could catch almost anything thrown near him and rarely ever dropped a pass (which is the most important quality of a WR imo).

 

5. Carter was part of the highest scoring offense of all time and that is a part of NFL history. Carter also mentored Moss and did play a role in shaping him into one of the three greatest WRs ever.

 

The problem with the HOF imo is that the WR group is too exclusive while the QB group is too inclusive. I don't think there is any other WR (who is eligible at the moment for the HOF)  more deserving than Carter.

Great points but I am not sure if you can puff up Carter's stats because of the QBs he played with. I mean look what Barry Sanders did behind one of the worst Olines. I think HoF guys make the players around them better. I think TO had worse Qbs than Carter in his career.

[amfootball]

 Carter also mentored Moss and did play a role in shaping him into one of the three greatest WRs ever.

I am not sure what Carter really did for Moss to be honest. Moss' behavior in Oakland was so bad that they shipped him to the Pats for a fourth round pick. And while he was a good teammate for three seasons in NE, he left in a hissy fit because he wanted more money. Randy Moss' talent shaped him into a top receiver, not Carter. The worse part of all is Moss could have been the best WR of all time if he had a better attitude. His two best seasons (1998 and 2007) were better than any two seasons Rice ever put up.

[IndyTrav]

Okay here's my rebuttal to your argument:

 

1. Carter was cut by the Eagles because of his substance abuse problems. Not because he didn't have talent.  I would also say he didn't even enter his prime (career-wise) till he was about 27 (which happened to occur after he got his substance abuse problem under control).

 

2. Looking at Carter's QBs...

 

As a Viking from 1990-1992, his QB was Rich Gannon who's best year in that stretch featured 2278 yards and 16 TDs.

As a Viking in 1993, his QB was Jim McMahon who's numbers in that year were 1968 yards and 9 TDs.

As a Viking in 1994, his QB was Warren Moon who's numbers in that year were 4264 yards and 18 TDs.

As a Viking in 1995, his QB was again Warren Moon, but this year he played like a HOF and had 4228 yards and 33 TDs.

As a Viking in 1996, his QBs were Warren Moon (1610 yards, 7 TDs) and Brad Johnson (2258 yards, 17 TDs).

As a Viking in 1997, his QB was Brad Johnson (3036 yards, 20 TDs).

As a Viking in 1998, his QB was Randall Cunningham (3704 yards, 34 TDs)

As a Viking in 1999, his main QB was Jeff George (2816 yards, 23 TDs)

As a Viking from 2000-2001, his QB was Daunte Culpepper, who's only good year was 2000 (3937 yards, 33TDs)

 

When he was with the Vikings, he only had 4 seasons where his QB played really well (1994, 1995, 1998, 2000) out of 12. That's not exactly a lot.

 

3. I don't know what his teammates and others liking him have to do with the HOF. I don't think many people like T.O. at all, yet he is without question a HOF. Personally, I don't really like carter that much either, but that doesn't mean he isn't a HOF.

 

4. It shouldn't  matter whether a player was a "transcendent talent" or "game-breaking speed" or "physical imposing." Those are all just attributes of a player, they don't describe how good a NFL player actually was. Guys like Hines Ward or Wes Welker (not saying they are HOFs) have none of those 3 attributes yet they were/are great receivers.

The one thing Carter did possess was amazing hands, he could catch almost anything thrown near him and rarely ever dropped a pass (which is the most important quality of a WR imo).

 

5. Carter was part of the highest scoring offense of all time and that is a part of NFL history. Carter also mentored Moss and did play a role in shaping him into one of the three greatest WRs ever.

 

The problem with the HOF imo is that the WR group is too exclusive while the QB group is too inclusive. I don't think there is any other WR (who is eligible at the moment for the HOF)  more deserving than Carter.

1. And generally teams, will stick with a talented player regardless of the guys personal problem. Not always, but could be in Carters case.

2. 90-92 Carter didn't start a whole lot between those 3 seasons he only started 33 of 48 games. But still, Gannon was a future MVP, and SB starting QB. The talent was there.

93- He also had Salisbury, and between the 2, threw for 3381yds 18TDs, which would have been 5th in yards, and 5th in TDs that season.....They also made the playoffs.

94- Moon was 3rd in yards, 9th in TDs....Made the playoffs...

95-Moon was again 3rd in yards, 2nd in TDs....Made the playoffs....

96- Between the 2 QBs, they finished 5th in yards, 5th in TDs....made the playoffs...

97-Between Johnson/Cunningham they finished 6th in yards, 5th in TDs....

98- Cunningham was AP, despite Johnson starting 2 games. Between the 2 they finished 1st and 1st by wide margins.

99- Again injuries, between the 2, 3rd in yards, 3rd in TDs.

00- Culpeper was 4th in yards, 1st in TDs...

01- more injuries, finished 6th in yarss 8th in TDs.

So yes, Carter struggled with a hodgepodge mix of Qbs throughout his career, but regardless of who it was, they performed. From 1993-2001 the Vikings QB on avg was 4th in yards, and 4th in TDs, which is pretty darn fantastic.

3. His teammates not liking him, doesn't have much to do with anything. Just a tidbit. But it probably does matter when your neck in neck with a similar player, with a similar career path. If 2 guys are neck and neck, the 'better' teammate will probably win out. If nothing else is separating the 2.

4. Absolutely it should matter if the player was one of those things....This is the exact problem with the HoF, and Carters inclusion, and players being inducted in 30yrs after retirement...It should be reserved for the very best of the very best. It shouldn't be for guy who were good, and played a long time, and if it takes that long for someone to get in, then they are probably not a HoF, and if they are it is clearly not 100% agreed upon....No one is arguing Reggie White. Or Rice. Or Montana. Or Manning/Brady. THATS a HoF.

5. There is one common factor in the 2 highest scoring offenses of all time. Randy Moss. That is not a coincidence....

And I agree that QB inclusion is to high. Because, again I feel very few people should actually get in.

You mentioned earlier that you didnt feel Welker, or Ward were HoF. Well after putting Carter in, those 2 are now HoF due to the precedence that has been set.

[dgambill]

if Norwood hit that FG, would 1 time SB winner Parcels be in?

Yes....but to better answer your question...what if we recovered that onside kick in 09...would Pagano still be our coach...would we have taken Luck, would Polian be our GM. What if Tyree didn't make that catch, what if Manningham stepped out...would you all agree Brady is the greatest qb ever to slip on a pair of cleats?? I'm not trying to be be mean but to play the what if game seems to do injustice to what they DID accomplish...what if Desmond Howard didn't return that kick return for a TD...perhaps NE wins that SB for Parcells....what if he was a 3 time SB champ...fact was...he was an incredible coach that TURNED around every dump he went to and set them up for a more successful future...and the coaches he mentored along the way....wow. He had an incredible affect on the game and NFL...thus he is a HOF coach. 1, 2, or 3 SBs. Sorry...didn't mean to come off harsh..had a bad morning.

[dgambill]

I am not sure what Carter really did for Moss to be honest. Moss' behavior in Oakland was so bad that they shipped him to the Pats for a fourth round pick. And while he was a good teammate for three seasons in NE, he left in a hissy fit because he wanted more money. Randy Moss' talent shaped him into a top receiver, not Carter. The worse part of all is Moss could have been the best WR of all time if he had a better attitude. His two best seasons (1998 and 2007) were better than any two seasons Rice ever put up.

Or if the Pats paid him what he deserved......lol....i joke i joke...I think if he would have got paid by the Pats he could have produced an elite level for a few more years if he would have been happy...but we will never know. To say its Moss's attitude that led to the decline or the attitude of the front office to not pay him that led to his attitude...well there is a fine line....I think if both sides would have played that one right it would have seen him get an extension and seen NE get another SB and a couple elite more years out of him.....but who knows.

[supremecoltsfan300]

1. And generally teams, will stick with a talented player regardless of the guys personal problem. Not always, but could be in Carters case.

2. 90-92 Carter didn't start a whole lot between those 3 seasons he only started 33 of 48 games. But still, Gannon was a future MVP, and SB starting QB. The talent was there.

93- He also had Salisbury, and between the 2, threw for 3381yds 18TDs, which would have been 5th in yards, and 5th in TDs that season.....They also made the playoffs.

94- Moon was 3rd in yards, 9th in TDs....Made the playoffs...

95-Moon was again 3rd in yards, 2nd in TDs....Made the playoffs....

96- Between the 2 QBs, they finished 5th in yards, 5th in TDs....made the playoffs...

97-Between Johnson/Cunningham they finished 6th in yards, 5th in TDs....

98- Cunningham was AP, despite Johnson starting 2 games. Between the 2 they finished 1st and 1st by wide margins.

99- Again injuries, between the 2, 3rd in yards, 3rd in TDs.

00- Culpeper was 4th in yards, 1st in TDs...

01- more injuries, finished 6th in yarss 8th in TDs.

So yes, Carter struggled with a hodgepodge mix of Qbs throughout his career, but regardless of who it was, they performed. From 1993-2001 the Vikings QB on avg was 4th in yards, and 4th in TDs, which is pretty darn fantastic.

3. His teammates not liking him, doesn't have much to do with anything. Just a tidbit. But it probably does matter when your neck in neck with a similar player, with a similar career path. If 2 guys are neck and neck, the 'better' teammate will probably win out. If nothing else is separating the 2.

4. Absolutely it should matter if the player was one of those things....This is the exact problem with the HoF, and Carters inclusion, and players being inducted in 30yrs after retirement...It should be reserved for the very best of the very best. It shouldn't be for guy who were good, and played a long time, and if it takes that long for someone to get in, then they are probably not a HoF, and if they are it is clearly not 100% agreed upon....No one is arguing Reggie White. Or Rice. Or Montana. Or Manning/Brady. THATS a HoF.

5. There is one common factor in the 2 highest scoring offenses of all time. Randy Moss. That is not a coincidence....

And I agree that QB inclusion is to high. Because, again I feel very few people should actually get in.

You mentioned earlier that you didnt feel Welker, or Ward were HoF. Well after putting Carter in, those 2 are now HoF due to the precedence that has been set.

The concept of your 4th point I completely agree with. I just think that the HOF isnt that "Greatest only" club in reality. It should be, but it isn't. An idea I heard a couple days ago was that after the 5 years are up, they vote on whether a player is a HOF or not. After the vote, it's done. No vote on that player again next year. A person is either a HOF or they're not. Time shouldnt change that. If the HOF really was this exclusive club, then I'd lean towards saying Carter shouldnt be in it.

[supremecoltsfan300]

Great points but I am not sure if you can puff up Carter's stats because of the QBs he played with. I mean look what Barry Sanders did behind one of the worst Olines. I think HoF guys make the players around them better. I think TO had worse Qbs than Carter in his career.

Cant argue with that

[amfootball]

Or if the Pats paid him what he deserved......lol....i joke i joke...I think if he would have got paid by the Pats he could have produced an elite level for a few more years if he would have been happy...but we will never know. To say its Moss's attitude that led to the decline or the attitude of the front office to not pay him that led to his attitude...well there is a fine line....I think if both sides would have played that one right it would have seen him get an extension and seen NE get another SB and a couple elite more years out of him.....but who knows.

Tough to say. I certainly wanted him to stay. He wanted a big time contract at age 32 and his skills had begun to decline which we have seem now the last few years. The Pats wanted to keep him but he still thought he was worth top receiver money and he wasn't. I think the Pats would have gotten more out of him for sure then the Titans or niners but his attitude was terrible. He seemed to stop trying at the start of 2010 which prompted the Pats to trade him and sign Branch. A real shame. I will probably get killed for saying this but I think he was a better receiver then Rice - bigger, faster and able to catch anything. He just had a ten cent head which is why Rice has all the records and rings.

[GoColts8818]

Too bad sapp stunk in a 34

this is all fantasy stuff right? 

 

Going off that I would take Sapp.

 

If it has to be a guy who would realistic fit what we do then give me one of the two tackles. 

[coltsfanatic24]

This is a easy one, Warren Sapp. To be able to put pressure on the QB up the middle is very rare.

[oldunclemark]

I think Carter's value is above the numbers..

 

He caught badly thrown and overthrown passes...

 

I know many dont remember him actually playing but Cris Carter was a far better pass catcher than Randy Moss..

 

Moss was great but he was more talented than skilled.

 

Carter was more skilled than talented