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Werner among 18 first rounders still unsigned

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http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/78309/contract-status-of-2013-nfl-first-round-draft-picks

 

The Dolphins open camp on Saturday (they play the Cowboys in the HOF game, so both teams open camp earlier than everyone else). Their first rounder, Dion Jordan, the third overall pick, is still unsigned. The Cowboys signed Travis Frederick almost a month ago.

 

The Colts first round pick is still unsigned, as are the two players selected right before him, and the five players selected after him. That's a nice chunk of eight guys unsigned, representing 25% of the first round. And there's another ten that are still unsigned as of right now.

 

I get that there's no hurry to do these contracts. A lot of GMs and personnel guys take vacation after OTAs and minicamp, and so do agents. So sometimes these deals get done right before camp. It makes sense.

 

But I always expected that the new CBA would make signing draft picks a piece of cake, so it's surprising to me that more than half of the first rounders still haven't signed. The first couple of seasons, there were still a lot of unanswered questions (total guarantees, offsets, signing bonuses, etc.) Two years in, I would think that there are enough precedents to just bang these out, no hassle. 

 

I guess the real precedent that's been set is that agents are going to push for as much guaranteed as they can, with no offsets, and teams are going to hold out for as long as they can to get more favorable terms. I'm sure that the majority of these contracts get done in the next week or so, before everyone starts opening camp. Like Andrew Brandt says, "deadlines spur action." 

 

The Colts report in nine days, July 27, and start workouts the next day. I hope Werner can take the field with the rest of the team.

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dw49

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http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/78309/contract-status-of-2013-nfl-first-round-draft-picks

 

The Dolphins open camp on Saturday (they play the Cowboys in the HOF game, so both teams open camp earlier than everyone else). Their first rounder, Dion Jordan, the third overall pick, is still unsigned. The Cowboys signed Travis Frederick almost a month ago.

 

The Colts first round pick is still unsigned, as are the two players selected right before him, and the five players selected after him. That's a nice chunk of eight guys unsigned, representing 25% of the first round. And there's another ten that are still unsigned as of right now.

 

I get that there's no hurry to do these contracts. A lot of GMs and personnel guys take vacation after OTAs and minicamp, and so do agents. So sometimes these deals get done right before camp. It makes sense.

 

But I always expected that the new CBA would make signing draft picks a piece of cake, so it's surprising to me that more than half of the first rounders still haven't signed. The first couple of seasons, there were still a lot of unanswered questions (total guarantees, offsets, signing bonuses, etc.) Two years in, I would think that there are enough precedents to just bang these out, no hassle. 

 

I guess the real precedent that's been set is that agents are going to push for as much guaranteed as they can, with no offsets, and teams are going to hold out for as long as they can to get more favorable terms. I'm sure that the majority of these contracts get done in the next week or so, before everyone starts opening camp. Like Andrew Brandt says, "deadlines spur action." 

 

The Colts report in nine days, July 27, and start workouts the next day. I hope Werner can take the field with the rest of the team

 

 

 

 

 

I don't eve have a "glimmer" of doubt that Werner will be there for day 1. As soon as a choice or two in that grouping you mention sign , the rest will fall in like dominoes. There are just a few minor issues for the sides to dicker over and they will it get done.

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I'm really surprised he hasn't signed already, he doesn't seem like the type of guy that would holdout!

 

 

There's nothing at all negative about Werner not being signed yet. Once some of the other contracts are done around his slot , the contract will get done quickly.

 

The guy is paying an agent to negotiate his contract . He would be an * to over ride him and sign something his agent had not yet approved.

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I don't eve have a "glimmer" of doubt that Werner will be there for day 1. As soon as a choice or two in that grouping you mention sign , the rest will fall in like dominoes. There are just a few minor issues for the sides to dicker over and they will it get done.

 

Someone else mentioned above that rookies report a few days early, July 23rd. Just a handful of days left. I believe Luck, Fleener and Allen signed a couple days late. 

 

They could finish this thing at any moment, technically speaking. But the clock is ticking.

 

Even still, I'm not all that worried about whether it gets done before players report. It's just kind of weird to me that these contracts are still taking so long. I guess it's going to go this way every year.

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http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/78309/contract-status-of-2013-nfl-first-round-draft-picks

 

The Dolphins open camp on Saturday (they play the Cowboys in the HOF game, so both teams open camp earlier than everyone else). Their first rounder, Dion Jordan, the third overall pick, is still unsigned. The Cowboys signed Travis Frederick almost a month ago.

 

The Colts first round pick is still unsigned, as are the two players selected right before him, and the five players selected after him. That's a nice chunk of eight guys unsigned, representing 25% of the first round. And there's another ten that are still unsigned as of right now.

 

I get that there's no hurry to do these contracts. A lot of GMs and personnel guys take vacation after OTAs and minicamp, and so do agents. So sometimes these deals get done right before camp. It makes sense.

 

But I always expected that the new CBA would make signing draft picks a piece of cake, so it's surprising to me that more than half of the first rounders still haven't signed. The first couple of seasons, there were still a lot of unanswered questions (total guarantees, offsets, signing bonuses, etc.) Two years in, I would think that there are enough precedents to just bang these out, no hassle. 

 

I guess the real precedent that's been set is that agents are going to push for as much guaranteed as they can, with no offsets, and teams are going to hold out for as long as they can to get more favorable terms. I'm sure that the majority of these contracts get done in the next week or so, before everyone starts opening camp. Like Andrew Brandt says, "deadlines spur action." 

 

The Colts report in nine days, July 27, and start workouts the next day. I hope Werner can take the field with the rest of the team.

 

 

Superman.....

 

Without going into too much detail and making my poor brain freeze-up....   can you please explain to me, and others who are curious,   what this so-called "off-set" language is and means??

 

Sorry if this seems like I'm giving you home work...   but it feels like this topic is going to come up often over the next week or so, so we might as well deal with it now...

 

Thanks very much!      :thmup:

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There's nothing at all negative about Werner not being signed yet. Once some of the other contracts are done around his slot , the contract will get done quickly.

 

The guy is paying an agent to negotiate his contract . He would be an * to over ride him and sign something his agent had not yet approved.

 

Nothing negative at all. Hope I didn't give anyone the impression that I thought it was.

 

But the bolded above got me thinking. Werner is sandwiched between two picks by the same team, the Vikings. Floyd went #23, and he's sandwiched by two unsigned picks. Rhodes went #25, and he's sandwiched by two unsigned picks. The Vikings also have Patterson at #29, and the guy right before him at #28 isn't signed yet. The Rams signed #30, Ogletree, a month ago (no offset language in his contract, by the way.) The Vikings have a lot of work to do, possibly with three different agents. Whatever they wind up doing with Floyd and Rhodes especially will directly affect what we do with Werner.

 

(As an aside, I still wish we had drafted Rhodes. I'm liking Werner more and more, but I'll have my eye on Rhodes for a long time to come. Robert Woods, too. Alas...)

 

I guess maybe there are no real precedents so far with offset, signing bonuses and guarantees, because teams are approaching these differently. I wonder if this will continue to be an issue three or four years into the future. 

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http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/78309/contract-status-of-2013-nfl-first-round-draft-picks

 

The Dolphins open camp on Saturday (they play the Cowboys in the HOF game, so both teams open camp earlier than everyone else). Their first rounder, Dion Jordan, the third overall pick, is still unsigned. The Cowboys signed Travis Frederick almost a month ago.

 

The Colts first round pick is still unsigned, as are the two players selected right before him, and the five players selected after him. That's a nice chunk of eight guys unsigned, representing 25% of the first round. And there's another ten that are still unsigned as of right now.

 

I get that there's no hurry to do these contracts. A lot of GMs and personnel guys take vacation after OTAs and minicamp, and so do agents. So sometimes these deals get done right before camp. It makes sense.

 

But I always expected that the new CBA would make signing draft picks a piece of cake, so it's surprising to me that more than half of the first rounders still haven't signed. The first couple of seasons, there were still a lot of unanswered questions (total guarantees, offsets, signing bonuses, etc.) Two years in, I would think that there are enough precedents to just bang these out, no hassle. 

 

I guess the real precedent that's been set is that agents are going to push for as much guaranteed as they can, with no offsets, and teams are going to hold out for as long as they can to get more favorable terms. I'm sure that the majority of these contracts get done in the next week or so, before everyone starts opening camp. Like Andrew Brandt says, "deadlines spur action." 

 

The Colts report in nine days, July 27, and start workouts the next day. I hope Werner can take the field with the rest of the team.

Having a rookie contract take a little longer is nothing new. What is the hold up is more than likely is how many years the contract is for and what the amount of the signing bonus will be. I think he will be there on time if not soon after camp starts. 

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Superman.....

 

Without going into too much detail and making my poor brain freeze-up....   can you please explain to me, and others who are curious,   what this so-called "off-set" language is and means??

 

Sorry if this seems like I'm giving you home work...   but it feels like this topic is going to come up often over the next week or so, so we might as well deal with it now...

 

Thanks very much!      :thmup:

 

Sure thing.

 

Short answer, offset language means a team doesn't have to pay guaranteed money to a player if they release him and he makes that money on another team.

 

If a team releases a player with one year, $2m guaranteed on his contract, and he goes to another team, his new contract offsets the value of the old contract. So the old team only has to make up the difference. If he signs for one year, $2m, the old team doesn't have to pay any of that previously guaranteed money. It keeps the player from double-dipping. The $2m would still count against the old team's cap, either way. It's purely a cash payment issue.

 

If you want more, read on...

 

Agents are highly resistant to offset language, obviously. Teams are pushing to include it wherever they can. (I believe most coaches contracts include offset language, and have for a long time.) This is a new issue to the NFL, because most contracts aren't fully guaranteed, or even mostly guaranteed. With the new CBA came fully guaranteed contracts for a lot of first rounders (the amount of guaranteed money isn't determined by the CBA, it's a point of negotiation between the player and the team.) The offset issue really started affecting negotiations last year. I think things were moving so quickly in 2011 that no one made a big deal over it.

 

I don't know how big of an issue it's going to be, moving forward. Most of these contracts have minimal salaries in future years. I can't imagine there will be a lot of first rounders getting released within the first four years of their contracts.

 

Andrew Luck's contract includes no offset language. There's basically zero chance we release him, and if we ever did, there's less of a chance that he'd go play somewhere else (he'd have to literally be unable to throw a football for us to get rid of him). But the team made a fuss over the offset language. It's mostly a matter of principle, if you ask me. I get it, but I think the teams are fighting a losing battle. Not that I side with the players; there's no legitimate defense for protecting double-dipping. But if teams want to protect their interests with first rounders, they're better off holding their ground on the guarantees in the first place, not trying to include language that allows them to revoke the guarantee later on.

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Having a rookie contract take a little longer is nothing new. What is the hold up is more than likely is how many years the contract is for and what the amount of the signing bonus will be. I think he will be there on time if not soon after camp starts. 

 

The length of the contract is set by the CBA. It's four years, with a team option for a fifth year. The overall money is set as well. 

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The length of the contract is set by the CBA. It's four years, with a team option for a fifth year. The overall money is set as well. 

But not the signing bonus and how it is distributed throughout the contract. Upfront or back loaded makes a big difference as to what happens in the contract. 

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Nothing negative at all. Hope I didn't give anyone the impression that I thought it was.

 

But the bolded above got me thinking. Werner is sandwiched between two picks by the same team, the Vikings. Floyd went #23, and he's sandwiched by two unsigned picks. Rhodes went #25, and he's sandwiched by two unsigned picks. The Vikings also have Patterson at #29, and the guy right before him at #28 isn't signed yet. The Rams signed #30, Ogletree, a month ago (no offset language in his contract, by the way.) The Vikings have a lot of work to do, possibly with three different agents. Whatever they wind up doing with Floyd and Rhodes especially will directly affect what we do with Werner.

 

(As an aside, I still wish we had drafted Rhodes. I'm liking Werner more and more, but I'll have my eye on Rhodes for a long time to come. Robert Woods, too. Alas...)

 

I guess maybe there are no real precedents so far with offset, signing bonuses and guarantees, because teams are approaching these differently. I wonder if this will continue to be an issue three or four years into the future. 

 

No .. you didn't . 

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But not the signing bonus and how it is distributed throughout the contract. Upfront or back loaded makes a big difference as to what happens in the contract. 

 

Absolutely, but those are all standard negotiating issues, things that you work on with players all the time. People got restless when it took a week or so to get DHB and Bradshaw signed. It doesn't take three months to figure out the basic structure of a player contract, not when the years and compensation are predetermined. 

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Sure thing.

 

Short answer, offset language means a team doesn't have to pay guaranteed money to a player if they release him and he makes that money on another team.

 

If a team releases a player with one year, $2m guaranteed on his contract, and he goes to another team, his new contract offsets the value of the old contract. So the old team only has to make up the difference. If he signs for one year, $2m, the old team doesn't have to pay any of that previously guaranteed money. It keeps the player from double-dipping. The $2m would still count against the old team's cap, either way. It's purely a cash payment issue.

 

If you want more, read on...

 

Agents are highly resistant to offset language, obviously. Teams are pushing to include it wherever they can. (I believe most coaches contracts include offset language, and have for a long time.) This is a new issue to the NFL, because most contracts aren't fully guaranteed, or even mostly guaranteed. With the new CBA came fully guaranteed contracts for a lot of first rounders (the amount of guaranteed money isn't determined by the CBA, it's a point of negotiation between the player and the team.) The offset issue really started affecting negotiations last year. I think things were moving so quickly in 2011 that no one made a big deal over it.

 

I don't know how big of an issue it's going to be, moving forward. Most of these contracts have minimal salaries in future years. I can't imagine there will be a lot of first rounders getting released within the first four years of their contracts.

 

Andrew Luck's contract includes no offset language. There's basically zero chance we release him, and if we ever did, there's less of a chance that he'd go play somewhere else (he'd have to literally be unable to throw a football for us to get rid of him). But the team made a fuss over the offset language. It's mostly a matter of principle, if you ask me. I get it, but I think the teams are fighting a losing battle. Not that I side with the players; there's no legitimate defense for protecting double-dipping. But if teams want to protect their interests with first rounders, they're better off holding their ground on the guarantees in the first place, not trying to include language that allows them to revoke the guarantee later on.

 

Thanks for doing this....

 

Hope everyone appreciates you explaining this.....

 

For some odd reason,  I thought some of the delay in signings was over whether or not there'd be a 5th year or not to the rookie contract.    That the issue was negotiated now and not 4 years from now.

 

Apparently not.......

 

Interesting to me that this off-set loop-hole wasn't caught by the lawyers....    the spirit of the new CBA was that rookie contracts were to be cut and dried and haggling like this was to be eliminated....

 

Whoops!    Whether it's a fumble or a muff,  some NFL lawyer dropped the ball on this....

 

Anyway....   thanks again....   hopefully, the Werner deal gets done this week!     :thmup:

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Thanks for doing this....

 

Hope everyone appreciates you explaining this.....

 

For some odd reason,  I thought some of the delay in signings was over whether or not there'd be a 5th year or not to the rookie contract.    That the issue was negotiated now and not 4 years from now.

 

Apparently not.......

 

Interesting to me that this off-set loop-hole wasn't caught by the lawyers....    the spirit of the new CBA was that rookie contracts were to be cut and dried and haggling like this was to be eliminated....

 

Whoops!    Whether it's a fumble or a muff,  some NFL lawyer dropped the ball on this....

 

Anyway....   thanks again....   hopefully, the Werner deal gets done this week!     :thmup:

 

Yeah, all draft picks get four year contracts. First rounders have a team option for a fifth year. That option has to be exercised after Year 3, but before May 3 of Year 4. The team can also franchise tag the player beyond that fifth year. 

 

http://in2theleague.wordpress.com/2013/05/29/nfl-cba-series-5th-year-option-for-1st-round-picks/

 

I don't think it's a loophole. It's just something that comes with fully guaranteed contracts, which is kind of foreign to the NFL. But like I said above, coaches contracts have offset language, so it's not unreasonable for the teams to push for it in player contracts.

 

What I think maybe happened is that teams were in such a hurry to get deals done in the first year of the CBA, because everything was happening so fast -- you had to have 256 drafted players signed, plus handle free agency and restricted free agency and undrafted free agents, and so on, all in about three weeks. So they did these fully guaranteed contracts without really considering the impact of not having any offset language. Then the precedent was set, and when they tried to include the offset language the next year for new draft picks, the agents wanted to hold firm based on what happened with the previous draft class.

 

It's all a point of negotiation. Things would be easier if the CBA addressed that upfront, but it didn't. Teams and agents still have a lot of leeway to figure out the details of these contracts, even though the broad framework is already established. I hope it gets simpler moving forward, but that seems unlikely.

 

Edit: One other thing -- the reason the CBA included a rookie wage scale was to keep rookie contracts in check. They had gotten out of control, and it made sense to move some of that money away from first year players and back toward the vets. In exchange for drastically limiting the compensation for first year players (Sam Bradford is averaging $13m/year; Cam Newton is averaging $5.5m/year), the contracts were restricted to four years, as opposed to the typical seven years that top picks were getting. That way these players get to free agency faster and have a chance to cash in before their careers are halfway over. I think the two sides purposely left a lot of the details to be determined on a case-by-case basis.

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The Dolphins just signed Dion Jordan, the third pick in the draft. Just like with Tannehill last year, the Dolphins included offset language in the contract.

 

More info on Tannehill's contract, if anyone is interested.

http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2012/07/31/full-details-on-ryan-tannehills-contract-miami-dolphins-tannehill-craft-a-unique-deal-to-benefit-both-sides/

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Sure thing.

 

Short answer, offset language means a team doesn't have to pay guaranteed money to a player if they release him and he makes that money on another team.

 

If a team releases a player with one year, $2m guaranteed on his contract, and he goes to another team, his new contract offsets the value of the old contract. So the old team only has to make up the difference. If he signs for one year, $2m, the old team doesn't have to pay any of that previously guaranteed money. It keeps the player from double-dipping. The $2m would still count against the old team's cap, either way. It's purely a cash payment issue.

 

If you want more, read on...

 

Agents are highly resistant to offset language, obviously. Teams are pushing to include it wherever they can. (I believe most coaches contracts include offset language, and have for a long time.) This is a new issue to the NFL, because most contracts aren't fully guaranteed, or even mostly guaranteed. With the new CBA came fully guaranteed contracts for a lot of first rounders (the amount of guaranteed money isn't determined by the CBA, it's a point of negotiation between the player and the team.) The offset issue really started affecting negotiations last year. I think things were moving so quickly in 2011 that no one made a big deal over it.

 

I don't know how big of an issue it's going to be, moving forward. Most of these contracts have minimal salaries in future years. I can't imagine there will be a lot of first rounders getting released within the first four years of their contracts.

 

Andrew Luck's contract includes no offset language. There's basically zero chance we release him, and if we ever did, there's less of a chance that he'd go play somewhere else (he'd have to literally be unable to throw a football for us to get rid of him). But the team made a fuss over the offset language. It's mostly a matter of principle, if you ask me. I get it, but I think the teams are fighting a losing battle. Not that I side with the players; there's no legitimate defense for protecting double-dipping. But if teams want to protect their interests with first rounders, they're better off holding their ground on the guarantees in the first place, not trying to include language that allows them to revoke the guarantee later on.

 

I remember that there was a point of contention last year with Luck's contract due to the offset language.  At least that's what was being reported.  The Colts were trying to include the offset language and Luck's agent didn't want it included. 

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The Dolphins just signed Dion Jordan, the third pick in the draft. Just like with Tannehill last year, the Dolphins included offset language in the contract.

 

More info on Tannehill's contract, if anyone is interested.

http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2012/07/31/full-details-on-ryan-tannehills-contract-miami-dolphins-tannehill-craft-a-unique-deal-to-benefit-both-sides/

 

Even after signing Dion Jordan, there are still 17 first rounders that still have not signed. 

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I remember that there was a point of contention last year with Luck's contract due to the offset language.  At least that's what was being reported.  The Colts were trying to include the offset language and Luck's agent didn't want it included. 

 

I'm pretty sure the Colts caved. It's more a matter of principle. I can't imagine a scenario in which the Colts release Andrew Luck in the first four years of his career.

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Big Red Walk On

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Thanks for all the technical information S-man and please excuse my ignorance of the business side of the game.  My question is do teams have to pay their drafted players anything before the contracts are signed?  I just wonder if they don't delay things until the very end to save whatever money they can before they commit to a player for what seems like a slotted amount of money.  I realize there are a lot of savvy business people drawing up contracts in professional sports, but ultimately every dime counts toward the bottom line of the team right?

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The Jets just signed Geno Smith. He's not a first rounder, but it's interesting that he wasn't signed yet. Smith changed agents after the draft, so perhaps that change affected negotiations. And the Jets have two unsigned first rounders -- Milliner and Richardson -- so maybe getting Smith done was a stepping stone. 

 

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/9498660/geno-smith-signs-4-year-deal-new-york-jets

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