UPDATE: Aaron Hernandez All discussion about past and present merge)

[Gramz]

*edited it*

perfectly, edited   Warhorse.    Kudos.

[MrNLM]

[southwest1]

Exactly, NE is not tied to any "code" that demands they employ someone who is "knee" deep in trouble.     However the NFL does have code of conduct policy that states...   "don't screw up, you need us more than we need YOU"....

I will admit that your statement of "you need us more than we need you" is an accurate one John. I just have a problem with the phrase "knee deep in trouble." Speculation is no substitute for forensic evidence. I'm not saying you are wrong John. Just verify that first through tangible evidence first. That's all I ask. If it were me on trial for murder, I would hope that the public would grant me the same courtesy. Naturally, no one is obligated to do so. I know that. 

[Gramz]

I will admit that your statement of "you need us more than we need you" is an accurate one John. I just have a problem with the phrase "knee deep in trouble." Speculation is no substitute for forensic evidence. I'm not saying you are wrong John. Just verify that first through tangible evidence first. That's all I ask. If it were me on trial for murder, I would hope that the public would grant me the same courtesy. Naturally, no one is obligated to do so. I know that. 

I think he's a little more than "knee deep"     Yes, everyone is entitled to a "fair" trial,  but you have to admit,  it is not looking good for him.

[schwamm]

I will admit that your statement of "you need us more than we need you" is an accurate one John. I just have a problem with the phrase "knee deep in trouble." Speculation is no substitute for forensic evidence. I'm not saying you are wrong John. Just verify that first through tangible evidence first. That's all I ask. If it were me on trial for murder, I would hope that the public would grant me the same courtesy. Naturally, no one is obligated to do so. I know that.

I get your desire to honor the notion of innocent until proven guilty. I do. But imagine you are the owner of a business that relies heavily on public perception of honesty and integrity. One of your employees is accused of acts that could substantially jeopardize your reputation, thereby costing you business. What if defending this employee affects your ability to compete in your market? By law, you aren't required to keep this employee on your payroll, so do you take the personal hit out of principal? Or do you cut ties to save the business and the countless other jobs it enables?

Ultimately, this is not about the issue of innocence or guilt to me. It is about the Patriots making a business decision that most benefits the organization and the rest of the team. Let the courts decide on innocence or guilt. That is what it is there to do.

[Jules]

This is a prime opportunity for Tebow to become the darling of NE...       play TE/HB and do well and it will be All Tim T all day and night on ESPN again.   

 

I must say this time I would love to see it...   kinda.

 

Well maybe not ... 

 

It's Tebow Time!!!!

 

Trying not to hijack the Hernandez thread but I can never pass up an opportunity to spam a Tebow picture or two either.

 

[John Dee]

NE is looking out for their reputation, image, and perception of the franchise.   And the NFL.

 

Maybe it's not fair but I guarantee Bob Kraft knows exactly what is going on with the "powers that be" ..   

 

It is the nature of the beast in the NFL.   They do NOT like bad publicity.

I will admit that your statement of "you need us more than we need you" is an accurate one John. I just have a problem with the phrase "knee deep in trouble." Speculation is no substitute for forensic evidence. I'm not saying you are wrong John. Just verify that first through tangible evidence first. That's all I ask. If it were me on trial for murder, I would hope that the public would grant me the same courtesy. Naturally, no one is obligated to do so. I know that. 

[John Dee]

It's Tebow Time!!!!

 

Trying not to hijack the Hernandez thread but I can never pass up an opportunity to spam a Tebow picture or two either.

 

I actually think this IS TT's time to shine. 

 

Show the world he is a great "football player" .... 

[John Dee]

I get your desire to honor the notion of innocent until proven guilty. I do. But imagine you are the owner of a business that relies heavily on public perception of honesty and integrity. One of your employees is accused of acts that could substantially jeopardize your reputation, thereby costing you business. What if defending this employee affects your ability to compete in your market? By law, you aren't required to keep this employee on your payroll, so do you take the personal hit out of principal? Or do you cut ties to save the business and the countless other jobs it enables?

Ultimately, this is not about the issue of innocence or guilt to me. It is about the Patriots making a business decision that most benefits the organization and the rest of the team. Let the courts decide on innocence or guilt. That is what it is there to do.

Spot On....

[southwest1]

I don't see what justice has to do with the Patriots releasing Aaron Hernandez. The justice system is responsible for seeing to justice, not the Patriots.

 

Same thing for the NFL and Jimmy Haslem. Let the courts work out the justice.

 

 

Love your passion SW1 but I lost you on this one. Are you saying that Goodell should punish the Pats for releasing AH?

I guess it just really bothers me that a person can be cut from a team with no proven evidence of wrong doing. Filing charging against someone & convicting them of a crime are 2 drastically different things. Injury concerns I can understand for being cut. But even with suspected PED use a player has an appeals process to refute the allegation. No, I am not asking Goodell to punish the Patriots. I just really frown on wealthy owners getting special criminal privileges or different standards of evaluation than players. True, Hernandez has been arrested & Jimmy Haslam hasn't yet been arrested, but why is an FBI & IRS raid not worthy of similar scrutiny? 

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20130517/jimmy-haslam-pilot-flying-j-scandal/

[John Dee]

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.  

 

and the other folks involved have not even been mentioned?   There are 2 of them.       They are talking.

 

Mass.  state police have a case.      This is the furthest thing from a railroad job.

I guess it just really bothers me that a person can be cut from a team with no proven evidence of wrong doing. Injury concerns I can understand for being cut. But even with suspected PED use a player has an appeals process to refute the allegation. No, I am not asking Goodell to punish the Patriots. I just really frown on wealthy owners getting special criminal privileges or different standards of evaluation than players. True, Hernandez has been arrested & Jimmy Haslam hasn't yet been arrested, but why is an FBI & IRS raid not worthy of similar scrutiny? 

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20130517/jimmy-haslam-pilot-flying-j-scandal/

[John Dee]

It's NE...     if it were any other team in the NFL...    other than NE or NYJ..    who cares?

 

A Brown player is in serious trouble for nearly killing someone...    and it is a side note on yahoo.     Because it's Cleveland.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/browns-rookie-lb-ausar-walcott-charged-attempted-murder-134152191.html

 

If dude played for NE or the NYJ...      ESPN lead in.   

 

 

it's all about the ratings.....

 

oh and dude was released also without a trial......

[Malakai432]

It's Tebow Time!!!!

Trying not to hijack the Hernandez thread but I can never pass up an opportunity to spam a Tebow picture or two either.

Definitely a god amongst men.

[southwest1]

The other thing that stunned me was how quickly the AH prison jumpsuit jokes were spit out like candy & gum in a pez dispenser. Now, to be fair, when Big Ben of the Steelers was accused of rape; I jumped on the prison fatigues bandwagon & ,if I am honest with myself, if this had happened to a Dallas Cowboys player I might be leading the humorous antics charge myself. 

 

Translation: If you like the team you defend them passionately. If not, you slam them & bring out the pitch forks & torches. In other words, have your fun I guess. SW1 won't stop ya. It's all about perspective I guess...

[dw49]

This is a prime opportunity for Tebow to become the darling of NE...       play TE/HB and do well and it will be All Tim T all day and night on ESPN again.   

 

I must say this time I would love to see it...   kinda.

 

Well maybe not ... 

 

 

 

sure... why not ?

[Superman]

I guess it just really bothers me that a person can be cut from a team with no proven evidence of wrong doing. Filing charging against someone & convicting them of a crime are 2 drastically different things. Injury concerns I can understand for being cut. But even with suspected PED use a player has an appeals process to refute the allegation. No, I am not asking Goodell to punish the Patriots. I just really frown on wealthy owners getting special criminal privileges or different standards of evaluation than players. True, Hernandez has been arrested & Jimmy Haslam hasn't yet been arrested, but why is an FBI & IRS raid not worthy of similar scrutiny? 

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20130517/jimmy-haslam-pilot-flying-j-scandal/

 

Let's say a player fails a drug test, gets suspended for PED use, but appeals the decision and wins. The team can release him if they so choose. They don't even have to wait for the appeals outcome.

 

A team can release a player for whatsoever reason they choose. I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time with that basic fact. It happens all the time. Players are released for being knuckleheads, for missing practice, for failing drug tests, etc. There doesn't have to be a firm legal result for a team to cut ties with a player that they deem undesirable. Just so long as there's no discrimination. They could have cut him for having bad breath if they wanted.

 

In the case of Jimmy Haslem, again, the NFL cannot just get rid of him, even if they find him undesirable. He's not an employee, the terms of his partnership with the NFL are entirely different than the terms of Hernandez's employment. Think of it this way: You own a business with a partner, and the partner is accused of tax fraud. You can't just get rid of the partner, you have to go through a process. Can't just tell him "you're no longer part owner of this business." But if an employee is accused of wrongdoing, you can tell him "you no longer work here." It's entirely different.

 

It's also relevant that there's a big difference between being implicated in a murder and being accused of fraud. Hernandez wasn't released until he was arrested and about to be charged. Haslem hasn't been arrested or charged. The investigation is still ongoing. Again, an entirely different scenario.

[House]

Man Tebow really pulls out all the stops to make sure he sees the field.

[dw49]

Sure did.

 

Thought you did... Ya never know about anything any more , so why not. Can you imagine Tom Brady being told that he now has Tebow instead of Hernandez to throw to.

[southwest1]

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.  

 

and the other folks involved have not even been mentioned?   There are 2 of them.       They are talking.

 

Mass.  state police have a case.      This is the furthest thing from a railroad job.

Just to be clear, I never said Hernandez was being railroaded, I have no problem locking up an athlete. Just prove it first with conclusive not circumstantial evidence in a court of law first. 

[John Dee]

C'mon now..   TT is not pulling triggers and getting injured.

 

This is truly an opportunity for him.     He was projected as a TE / H Back coming out of Florida.

 

If BB asks him to play H Back?   What does he do?    In THAT MARKET?

Man Tebow really pulls out all the stops to make sure he sees the field.

[Blackhawk4]

Welp

 

[House]

C'mon now.. TT is not pulling triggers and getting injured.

This is truly an opportunity for him. He was projected as a TE / H Back coming out of Florida.

If BB asks him to play H Back? What does he do? In THAT MARKET?

I know he isn't really behind anything. That's why it's a joke lol.

[John Dee]

:Why can't you separate a Business's conduct policy from that of the LAW?

 

They are 2 very diff things.   An accounting firm would not hire Hernandez because of his tats alone.      But no up roar over that.

 

I don't get it SW?

 

Just to be clear, I never said Hernandez was being railroaded, I have no problem locking up an athlete. Just prove it first with conclusive not circumstantial evidence in a court of law first. 

[John Dee]

HEAVEN forbid a good kid get a chance at the misfortune of an *.

 

 

I know he isn't really behind anything. That's why it's a joke lol.

[House]

HEAVEN forbid a good kid get a chance at the misfortune of an *.

Who's saying otherwise?

[John Dee]

sarcasm...   It's late...   

 

Nighty nite... 

Who's saying otherwise?

[House]

sarcasm... It's late...

Nighty nite...

Sleep tight friend

[MAC]

I guess it just really bothers me that a person can be cut from a team with no proven evidence of wrong doing. Injury concerns I can understand for being cut. But even with suspected PED use a player has an appeals process to refute the allegation. No, I am not asking Goodell to punish the Patriots. I just really frown on wealthy owners getting special criminal privileges or different standards of evaluation than players. True, Hernandez has been arrested & Jimmy Haslam hasn't yet been arrested, but why is an FBI & IRS raid not worthy of similar scrutiny? 

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20130517/jimmy-haslam-pilot-flying-j-scandal/

To supplement Superman's comments (I was going to say something similar)

 

The Patriots released Hernandez because he is no longer of value to the team. Sticking up for him would cost them millions, affect roster spots, and in general impact their ability to compete for years. It's the same as releasing a player whose injury makes him no longer of value to the team. You are talking about this as if they have "judged" him and "found him guilty". It's actually that they know he isn't going to be playing football for them regardless, and they don't want to pay him to sit in jail. They have every right under their contract. In fact some have suggested that by acting now they may have a chance to recoup bonuses. Smart move on their part. In fact their obligation to their fans is to put the best product on the field that they can. It would arguably be inappropriate for them to SUPPORT Hernandez.

 

And by the way, considering his past problems, they may have long "known" that they guy has issues, and perhaps they had a zero tolerance policy with him. "Run away as fast as possible" might well be the best way to deal with Hernandez - whether you are his employer or his "friend".

 

None of this has anything to do with Haslam's situation. I just don't get the parallel.

 

While his rather large company is being investigated for ethics violations, no-one knows if he actually "did" anything. The accusations could be coming from (ironically) terminated employees with an axe to grind. And while it plays out, who exactly would you like to scrutinize him? Even If he had been arrested for murder, the only punishment that they league could meet out would be whatever punishment the owners all agreed to subject themselves to in the terms of their ownership agreements.

 

In other words, don't conflate two issues: Hernandez and Haslam are equal in the eyes of the law, and all of us would be offended if Haslam got special treatment in that regard because he is wealthy, just as we would be offended if Hernandez got special treatment because he is an athlete.

 

But in terms of their relationship with the sport and their contracts, they aren't remotely close to being equals, and there is no reasonable expectation of like-kind treatment. If Hernandez doesn't like that, let him start his own company, work decades to make it successful, have a son and bring him into the business, let the son work years to make it more successful, and then let his son buy his own team. THEN he'll get "special" treatment from the league. 

 

And not to "judge" Hernandez (that's for the jury), but that last scenario doesn't seem likely as Hernandez appears to be a dumb gang-banger with anger management issues and a warped sense of right and wrong. I'm less concerned with the injustice of his termination than I am with making sure I don't run into him in a dark alley. Not so much concerned about Haslam.

[southwest1]

To supplement Superman's comments (I was going to say something similar)

 

The Patriots released Hernandez because he is no longer of value to the team. Sticking up for him would cost them millions, affect roster spots, and in general impact their ability to compete for years. It's the same as releasing a player whose injury makes him no longer of value to the team. You are talking about this as if they have "judged" him and "found him guilty". It's actually that they know he isn't going to be playing football for them regardless, and they don't want to pay him to sit in jail. They have every right under their contract. In fact some have suggested that by acting now they may have a chance to recoup bonuses. Smart move on their part. In fact their obligation to their fans is to put the best product on the field that they can. It would arguably be inappropriate for them to SUPPORT Hernandez.

 

And by the way, considering his past problems, they may have long "known" that they guy has issues, and perhaps they had a zero tolerance policy with him. "Run away as fast as possible" might well be the best way to deal with Hernandez - whether you are his employer or his "friend".

 

None of this has anything to do with Haslam's situation. I just don't get the parallel.

 

While his rather large company is being investigated for ethics violations, no-one knows if he actually "did" anything. The accusations could be coming from (ironically) terminated employees with an axe to grind. And while it plays out, who exactly would you like to scrutinize him? Even If he had been arrested for murder, the only punishment that they league could meet out would be whatever punishment the owners all agreed to subject themselves to in the terms of their ownership agreements.

 

In other words, don't conflate two issues: Hernandez and Haslam are equal in the eyes of the law, and all of us would be offended if Haslam got special treatment in that regard because he is wealthy, just as we would be offended if Hernandez got special treatment because he is an athlete.

 

But in terms of their relationship with the sport and their contracts, they aren't remotely close to being equals, and there is no reasonable expectation of like-kind treatment. If Hernandez doesn't like that, let him start his own company, work decades to make it successful, have a son and bring him into the business, let the son work years to make it more successful, and then let his son buy his own team. THEN he'll get "special" treatment from the league. 

 

And not to "judge" Hernandez (that's for the jury), but that last scenario doesn't seem likely as Hernandez appears to be a dumb gang-banger with anger management issues and a warped sense of right and wrong. I'm less concerned with the injustice of his termination than I am with making sure I don't run into him in a dark alley. Not so much concerned about Haslam.

NE scouts knew about Hernandez's less than flattering past & they still drafted him. I don't completely absolve them from blame here. Yes, they probably believed that they had the people in place to put Hernandez on the right path. I get that. An admirable endeavor. 

 

Regarding Haslem, I find it hard to believe that the process to approve the purchase of an NFL franchise is so rigorous from one owner to another, but yet there is no plan in place to bring about an owner's removal from their post? I am not saying that this is the sole responsibility of the NFL alone, but why wouldn't the league work in concert with a stadium's city & board of directors to establish a protocol in the event that an owner's became necessary as a result of corruption?  Yes, I will admit that murder & corruption are not equal in scope. [Yes I know that Haslem hasn't been charged with anything yet. I was just speaking hypothetically.] 

[stat2883]

just popping in at the end, but one thing I noticed that I didn't see corrected... Ray Lewis actually was charged with murder (2 counts) and held without bail for a time. Lewis eventually plead guilty to obstruction of justice.

and just to throw it out there - I would love to see Tebow get a chance to get on the field and succeed.

[Fx Stryker]

Does anyone have the prosecutors details of what happened? Sorry, I am sure it's posted in the thread. I just don't feel like digging.

[MAC]

 

Regarding Haslem, I find it hard to believe that the process to approve the purchase of an NFL franchise is so rigorous from one owner to another, but yet there is no plan in place to bring about an owner's removal from their post? I am not saying that this is the sole responsibility of the NFL alone, but why wouldn't the league work in concert with a stadium's city & board of directors to establish a protocol in the event that an owner's became necessary as a result of corruption?  Yes, I will admit that murder & corruption are not equal in scope. [Yes I know that Haslem hasn't been charged with anything yet. I was just speaking hypothetically.] 

I would imagine that the ownership agreement has some ethics clauses. It's entirely possible that there are provisions that would compel a convicted felon to sell. Perhaps someone arrested for a felony could even be suspended. That would be the closest parallel to what we are talking about with Hernandez. Since their legal situations aren't comparable, it's not relevant to compare the consequences.

 

But even a suspension wouldn't bring a financial burden since these men don't need to draw a salary from their team in the first place. Even the article you linked has hints about the league having the ability to suspend an individual, and I'm sure that pressure can be brought to bear from many quarters to make someone uncomfortable. But just like the article cited, the logical result of all that is the owner choosing to put someone else as the face of the franchise. You can't "fire" the owner. And even if he sells, he may well make hundreds of millions in profit on the turnaround. Unless the IRS is waiting to get paid (or the purchase of the team was in and of itself an act of fraud) it's not like someone will be standing with their hand out. It's HIS team - not the leagues.

[southwest1]

I would imagine that the ownership agreement has some ethics clauses. It's entirely possible that there are provisions that would compel a convicted felon to sell. Perhaps someone arrested for a felony could even be suspended. That would be the closest parallel to what we are talking about with Hernandez. Since their legal situations aren't comparable, it's not relevant to compare the consequences.

 

But even a suspension wouldn't bring a financial burden since these men don't need to draw a salary from their team in the first place. Even the article you linked has hints about the league having the ability to suspend an individual, and I'm sure that pressure can be brought to bear from many quarters to make someone uncomfortable. But just like the article cited, the logical result of all that is the owner choosing to put someone else as the face of the franchise. You can't "fire" the owner. And even if he sells, he may well make hundreds of millions in profit on the turnaround. Unless the IRS is waiting to get paid (or the purchase of the team was in and of itself an act of fraud) it's not like someone will be standing with their hand out. It's HIS team - not the leagues.

True MAC, it is Haslem's team, but since state legislature's often "appropriate" funds for stadium expansions & renovations what if an owner was accused of corruption or illegal gambling activities?

 

I realize of course that very few city's could afford to take on the responsibility of directly owning a percentage of a team & even if they could afford it via a small investment group, it doesn't mean that they have the right personnel to run day to day operations. So therefore, a family can retain ownership of a franchise just by changing the name on the stadium deed? Interesting...Wow, talk about passing the buck...Too bad bank robbers can't do that. Steal millions & then give the money to your brother & the bank or IRS can't get their money back. Just Kidding! 

[buccolts]

Man Tebow really pulls out all the stops to make sure he sees the field.

 

So, you're sayin' this was God's will?    

[IcEWoLF]

I am sick to my stomach, I truly started liking Hernandez a lot, he was great in college and he showed glimpse of greatness in NE...

 

This off season has not been working out for us at all.

The loss of Welker, Gronk Injury, Hernandez out of the picture from the NFL for a while one would think.

 

One can only think what's going through Tom Brady's mind at the moment.

[Warhorse]

I am sick to my stomach, I truly started liking Hernandez a lot, he was great in college and he showed glimpse of greatness in NE...

 

This off season has not been working out for us at all.

The loss of Welker, Gronk Injury, Hernandez out of the picture from the NFL for a while one would think.

 

One can only think what's going through Tom Brady's mind at the moment.

It is probably pretty eye opening for Pats fans. Every team has their challenge years. Pats and Colts have been two of the most stable franchises for years. We seem to be catching the up wave at the moment with the Colts.

[bayone]

Does anyone have the prosecutors details of what happened? Sorry, I am sure it's posted in the thread. I just don't feel like digging.

 

Read this, has most of it but doesn't flow as well as when spelled out in court

 

scroll down to   HEADING below then read rest of article

 

 TIMELINE:  

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2013/06/26/aaron-hernandez-charged-with-murder/2459751/

 

or link below and start reading after this picture

 

 

with paragragh starting with 

 

McCauley said the slaying stemmed from a night out at a Boston club called Rumor on June 14.

 HERE Is just 1  A KEY PASSAGE BUT WITH  a NOTED TIME  THAT 1ST ARTICLE LEFT OUT

 

Lloyd texted his sister, "Did you see who I am with?" When she asked who, he answered, at 3:22 a.m., "NFL," then, a minute later, he sent one final text: "Just so you know."

 

Within a few minutes, people working the overnight shift at the industrial park reported hearing gunshots, McCauley said. Surveillance video showed the car going into a remote area of the industrial park and emerging four minutes later, the prosecutor said.

 

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_23542141/pats-player-hernandez-taken-from-home-handcuffs

[bayone]

Just to be clear, I never said Hernandez was being railroaded, I have no problem locking up an athlete. Just prove it first with conclusive not circumstantial evidence in a court of law first. 

 

If have enough circumstantial and not just  bits can amount to Virtual  Conclusive Proof

 

Definitive proof would be nice, Yet doubt that is available save maybe for him being there at the time seems just so definite with videos & what evidence  they do have, who knows may have more

 

as far as who pulled trigger , well other 2 guys may be turning state evidence, there names are being withheld right now and no word if being charged

 

would i trust what any of the 3 say , no

 

but it sure looks like AAron called up his troops , took them on a manhunt , and even if he didnt pull the trigger was the key player that may have ordered it , instigated it, or as prosecutor says ORCHESTRATED IT , if all that is true , he is as guilty as whomever actually took the shot

------------------------------------

 

FINAL JUDGEMENT will be reserved though to see how things play out 

[ruksak]

Sounds to me like AH's buddies flipped on him. Without something like that, a murder 1 charge wouldn't have been dropped. 

 

I haven't heard about anyone else being charged in this case, but I'm feeling like Hernandez's "friends" named him as the trigger man. 

[ruksak]

Definitely a god amongst men.

Ya know Dan, Tebow is still single.