TY Hilton more efficient wideout than Wayne?

[chad72]

You decide, this one suggests so:

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

[TKnight24]

Not quite sure how to respond to this.......

[Dustin]

"These statistics measure only passes thrown to a receiver, not performance on plays when he is not thrown the ball, such as blocking and drawing double teams."

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I'm not chasing that rabbit.

[BOTT]

No

[gacker65]

Hard to understand.  By their own explaination, Reggie was better than Hilton.

[Buck Showalter]

Go re-watch that packer game and re-ask that question...

[Buck Showalter]

Donnie Avery ranks higher than Larry Fitzgerald on that list too...

so Donnie Avery>Fitzgerald???

[Warhorse]

That TD by Wayne at the goal line against the Pack was possibly my favorite all time Colts offensive play. To quote Forrest Gump...

 

"That's all I got to say about that......."

[Buck Showalter]

That TD by Wayne at the goal line against the Pack was possibly my favorite all time Colts offensive play. To quote Forrest Gump...

 

"That's all I got to say about that......."

 

That game is real high on my list of all time favorite sports moments ever...

[Poster X]

Once TY has played for as long then you ask that question... having said that TY is one of my favorite new players.

[LockeDown]

Yet another reason to use numbers as a tool and not the be-all end-all.  

[BrentMc11]

Talk to me after one year....Wow what crazy stats!!  

 

TY is a consummate slot receiver, and should thrive in a West Coast-esque offense.....Reggie has been the consummate 'wide-out' in both the Tom Moore/Manning offense and the Bruce Arians offense.

 

Lets enjoy both of these guys do what they do best:

 

• Reggie:  Smooth routes, consistency, and great hands.
• TY:  Run with it young man until the cows come home (and we aint got no (poor English intended) cows)

               

[chad72]

Once TY has played for as long then you ask that question... having said that TY is one of my favorite new players.

 

Oh, this question was just for 2012 since these are just 2012 stats.

 

But I agree. Wayne was the bailout package for Luck and the Colts offense, IMO.

[weslo1812]

I would just like to add a guy with some size maybe and good hands another guy who is a reliable catcher. I dont even really care if he's a burner or not. Just good hands and a good route runner.

[Larry Horseman]

More efficient, yes. TY averaged more yards per catch, had more TDs, and had a better catch rate than RW. That is the definition of being more efficient.

 

No doubt RW is still a better all around WR, and it utilized for his consistency not big play efficiency.

[braveheartcolt]

Poor English indeed. Do you write songs for rock bands......

Talk to me after one year....Wow what crazy stats!!  

 

TY is a consummate slot receiver, and should thrive in a West Coast-esque offense.....Reggie has been the consummate 'wide-out' in both the Tom Moore/Manning offense and the Bruce Arians offense.

 

Lets enjoy both of these guys do what they do best:

 

• Reggie:  Smooth routes, consistency, and great hands.
• TY:  Run with it young man until the cows come home (and we aint got no (poor English intended) cows)

               

[BrentMc11]

Poor English indeed. Do you write songs for rock bands......

I knew you would like that one BH!!!  Rock bands, commercials...hillbilly....you name it...my journalism/English major did nothing for me 

[Jay Kirk]

Talk to me after one year....Wow what crazy stats!!  

 

TY is a consummate slot receiver, and should thrive in a West Coast-esque offense.....Reggie has been the consummate 'wide-out' in both the Tom Moore/Manning offense and the Bruce Arians offense.

 

Lets enjoy both of these guys do what they do best:

 

• Reggie:  Smooth routes, consistency, and great hands.
• TY:  Run with it young man until the cows come home (and we aint got no (poor English intended) cows)

               

Brother well stated Reggie has been a model of efficiency IMO,and Ilove TY ,why even debate this

[Jay Kirk]

Poor English indeed. Do you write songs for rock bands......

Lol yes he does think 3 Doors down and Daughtry done one of his numbers at the concert i was at monday night,  Or was that the Bud Light i was hearing

[TKnight24]

Faster than Wayne? Yes

Better/Efficient than Wayne? No

Wayne is hands down the MOST reliable WR we have. And sad to say Luck's trust in him caused some of our turnovers where Andrew tried to force the ball to Reggie.

Reggie may be the slowest WR on the roster, but without him this year..... 11-5 would've been a myth instead of a reality

[will426]

given that Wayne was double teamed constantly i would have expected Avery and Hilton to be efficient but that seemed to work out for one (Hilton)

[TiagoAraruna]

TY isn't better than Wayne. Not this last season. Maybe in the future, who knows? Hope He turns to be a great WR for this team. Must catch the football though. Sometimes He didn't catch some catchable ones and needs to get better at it.

[funktacious2]

It's not like it's saying Hilton is better than Wayne.

[Tark The Shark]

Hilton was good, Wayne was great, this season.

 

Maybe in time when Hilton gets more experience, can he be better than Wayne. 

[Larry Horseman]

Most of you seem to be confusing efficiency with better. The two things don't mean the same thing. My Mazda 3 is more efficient than a BMW (cheaper, better gas mileage, etc.), but it is not necessarily a better vehicle. There is nothing wrong with pointing to the facts and making a conclusion (e.g., TY had better metrics than RW and was thus more efficient). There is something wrong with dismissing the facts because of a false assumption (e.g., because of TY had better metrics he was a better/more important player than RW). No one in their right mind is going to say TY was a better player than RW...RW enable TY to be more efficient, but TY was still more efficient.

[BrentMc11]

Most of you seem to be confusing efficiency with better. The two things don't mean the same thing. My Mazda 3 is more efficient than a BMW (cheaper, better gas mileage, etc.), but it is not necessarily a better vehicle. There is nothing wrong with pointing to the facts and making a conclusion (e.g., TY had better metrics than RW and was thus more efficient). There is something wrong with dismissing the facts because of a false assumption (e.g., because of TY had better metrics he was a better/more important player than RW). No one in their right mind is going to say TY was a better player than RW...RW enable TY to be more efficient, but TY was still more efficient.

In those terms you are exactly right Larry.

 

I think I may have gotten it off on the wrong path because I look at Hilton more of a slot than a wide out....in theory he is was not a wide out in the Arians offense...

 

I probably got it off of the term efficent....because Wayne is so polished and smooth...and in my mind had his most efficiently effective year ever.  

[Superman]

More efficient, yes. TY averaged more yards per catch, had more TDs, and had a better catch rate than RW. That is the definition of being more efficient.

 

No doubt RW is still a better all around WR, and it utilized for his consistency not big play efficiency.

 

 

Most of you seem to be confusing efficiency with better. The two things don't mean the same thing. My Mazda 3 is more efficient than a BMW (cheaper, better gas mileage, etc.), but it is not necessarily a better vehicle. There is nothing wrong with pointing to the facts and making a conclusion (e.g., TY had better metrics than RW and was thus more efficient). There is something wrong with dismissing the facts because of a false assumption (e.g., because of TY had better metrics he was a better/more important player than RW). No one in their right mind is going to say TY was a better player than RW...RW enable TY to be more efficient, but TY was still more efficient.

 

Word.

 

FO also has Pierre Garcon one slot ahead of Reggie, but I think we all know who was better last season between the two.

 

More efficient better.

[Larry Horseman]

In those terms you are exactly right Larry.

 

I think I may have gotten it off on the wrong path because I look at Hilton more of a slot than a wide out....in theory he is was not a wide out in the Arians offense...

 

I probably got it off of the term efficent....because Wayne is so polished and smooth...and in my mind had his most efficiently effective year ever.  

 

RW lined up 422 times in the slot this year (nearly double what he did from 09-11), so I don't really think making that distinction is appropriate. At any rate, RW is one of my all time favorite Colts because of his skill-set, work ethic, dependability, and consistent impact. However, efficiency has to do with the amount of effort/time/work needed to produce an output(s). By all measurable standards, TY was more efficient than RW. No doubt, RW is still a better all-around player who impacts the offense in ways that aren't quantified by efficiency. We for sure agree that TY is not better than RW.

[Larry Horseman]

Word.

 

FO also has Pierre Garcon one slot ahead of Reggie, but I think we all know who was better last season between the two.

 

More efficient better.

 

I saw that and wasn't sure what to think...PG did have some really good games this year. He also missed a ton, and I bet if he played all 16 he may not have came out as good. I don't really think RW has ever been the most efficient player (as they define it). I would be interested to see what Marv's numbers looked like in his prime. That was efficiency at its best.

[CR91]

if ty adds some muscle to his frame hes gonna be unstoppable

[ED29_1659yards]

Ok, ill entertain this post, but why is this even a thread(topic)? If the main receiver, or receiver #1 gets double teamed, then the answer is so obvious, Stevie Wonder could see it...Im setting my attention on Jeremy Kelley, and Nathan Palmer. Im ready to see these guys get a chance to shine.

[southwest1]

Yet another reason to use numbers as a tool and not the be-all end-all.  

I agree statistics can be used & manipulated to confirm anything. I never put much stock in numbers alone. They prove nothing. I know talent when I see it. Hilton is not better than Wayne. Reggie is probably being doubled teamed by other squads, which gives TY more opportunities to catch the ball. The money down is 3rd & long & Andrew always monitors where Wayne is in those circumstances. Let's hold off on appointing TY the better WR after such a short tenure in INDY. 

 

Ty is very good & has the potential to be great under Reggie's guidance, but let's be patient here & no go completely off the rails on this one. Thank you.

[NewColtsFan]

If you sit down and try to come up with some unique, ground breaking formula about efficiency for WR's.....

 

And then you toss in that drops are not part of the equation and they don't have access to that stat....

 

And then you toss it into your computer and it spits out that Larry Fitzgerald is the 86th most efficient WR and that is 4 spots lower than Donnie Avery.....

 

Then this website needed to scrap this formula.   They needed to look at each other and someone needed to say.....

 

"Garbage in;  Garbage out"

 

Complete nonsense.    There's a few minutes of my life I'd like to have back.....     

 

You know what this deserves, don't you?!?

 

:slaphead:                                           

[HungarianColtsFan]

T.Y. is neither better nor more efficient than Reggie. Yet.

 

He has just completed his first season in the NFL and showed some Harrison-like feature, he will be a heckuva wideout in some (very few) years, who is a life threat to any defense, but right now he has flaws to be improved. A mad scientist should combine his DNA with adhesives to stick the ball to his hands.

[BrentMc11]

RW lined up 422 times in the slot this year (nearly double what he did from 09-11), so I don't really think making that distinction is appropriate. At any rate, RW is one of my all time favorite Colts because of his skill-set, work ethic, dependability, and consistent impact. However, efficiency has to do with the amount of effort/time/work needed to produce an output(s). By all measurable standards, TY was more efficient than RW. No doubt, RW is still a better all-around player who impacts the offense in ways that aren't quantified by efficiency. We for sure agree that TY is not better than RW.

Well stated Larry H!  I agree with you wholeheartedly!!!  I watched every game...never realized that RW lined up that many times in the slot....surprising number to me.  That is what happens when I pay so much attn to the OL.....

[TKnight24]

So, with Avery most likely gone..... it's Reggie & TY right now. Hoping to see Brazill & Whalen get in on the action this year. Definitely time for people to step up

[lollygagger8]

The only way Hilton > Wayne would ever be, is if Hilton puts velcro, stickum and duct tape on orange gloves, and has Reggie's permission to be as bada$$ as he is.

 

Then.....maybe.

[Larry Horseman]

Fitzgerald had a terrible year. Was it his fault, no, but that still doesn't mean he had a good year by any sort of measurable standards. In fact, even the eye test tells you he had a bad year. Again, efficiency doesn't mean that there are 85 better WRs in the league than Fitz; it means he did not effectively produce based on a certain set of metrix (which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who watched the Cards offense). It's not his fault, the blame is really on the Cards management/coaching for having a terrible OL and QB situation. However, I don't see how you can just throw away the facts because it goes against the perception that you have of a player...Fitz was, in fact, ineffecient last season.

 

And then you toss it into your computer and it spits out that Larry Fitzgerald is the 86th most efficient WR and that is 4 spots lower than Donnie Avery.....

[Coffeedrinker]

You decide, this one suggests so:

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

It's nice to know that even though I've been away a while (I've been busier than a one arm paper hanger as the saying goes) that things don't change.

 

Why are people equating "efficiency" and "better".  The numbers are not stating that Hilton is a better WR than Wayne, it's a group of calculations to produce statistics that look at, was the receiver thrown the ball and what did he do with it after.  The higher DYAR does not mean better, just more efficient.  And in this calc the two big things that lowered Wayne's numbers was the TDs.  In 196 passes he had 5 TDs.  In 90 TDs Hilton had 6 TDs. And the DVOA.  I'm not sure why Wayne would have a DVOA in the negatives and Hilton's being a +10%.

 

I must admit, I was a bit skeptical of Hilton, he seemed to have talent but I thought it would take him a  couple of years to adjust to the speed of the game.  But he had a fantastic rookie season, his numbers compare favorably to Harrison's.  And yes I'm comparing him to Harrison because they are similar type receivers, Marvin was better in and out of his breaks than Hilton but Hilton has a better 2nd gear than Harrison.

 

But when comparing Wayne and Hilton they have different roles in the O.  Wayne is the workhorse, he's going to get the passes to move the chains or the 5-8 yard pass on 2nd down to make a manageable 3rd down.  Hilton is the big play guy.  So when you look at something like this stat, did the ball get thrown to him and what did he do with it of course Hilton is going to be more efficient but that does not mean better.