AR vs Young vs Stroud vs Levis

[RollerColt]

Stroud was my first choice as most probably know. And despite him being a Texan, I'm still happy he's doing well. Good QB play across the NFL makes the sport overall better and more enjoyable. 

[IndyScribe]

40 minutes ago, krunk said:

Yes bc Stroud is a pocket passer who fits in virtually any system other than something asking him to run a lot. AR has tools and good pocket presence but he wouldn't fit in most pocket passing systems bc he is not an accomplished pocket passer. He is best with a coach like Steichen who can scheme around his flaws and maximize his athleticism. Not every coach can or is willing to do that.

Then they shouldn't be an NFL coach. The best coaches adapt their system around players. Stroud doesn't fit in a team like the Eagles, Ravens, Bills, etc. because those teams are designed around running a lot. It's like trying to fit Joe Burrow in the Eagles scheme (with a lot of designed runs). You're definitely not executing the QB sneaks at a high level. You're really underselling AR and what's he capable of. There are very few true pocket passers in the league and AR would actually fit some of those teams, believe it or not. 

 

 

20 minutes ago, Blueblazes said:

Ding, ding, ding we have a winner. AR is fine is there's a jailbreak, but let's face it, there's a reason there's only 4 starting QBs in the NFL that think running first as much as passing first.

This isn't accurate either. Most QBs in the NFL are mobile. Are you going to tell me Mahomes is a bad QB because he moves around in the pocket?

 

 

 

Stroud has looked fine but I'm still taking AR any day of the week. Upside + athleticism and he can develop as a passer. Think of it this way: We knew Stroud was going to be a good passer coming out. Whereas with AR, there were a lot of concerns over his accuracy. AR is the only one (so far) to show development from his college tape. Stroud still struggles under pressure and creating out of structure. People need to get over their love for pocket passers. This isn't the Peyton and Brady era anymore. You need to be mobile to succeed at the NFL level. 

[krunk]

25 minutes ago, IndyScribe said:

Then they shouldn't be an NFL coach. The best coaches adapt their system around players. Stroud doesn't fit in a team like the Eagles, Ravens, Bills, etc. because those teams are designed around running a lot. It's like trying to fit Joe Burrow in the Eagles scheme (with a lot of designed runs). You're definitely not executing the QB sneaks at a high level. You're really underselling AR and what's he capable of. There are very few true pocket passers in the league and AR would actually fit some of those teams, believe it or not. 

 

 

This isn't accurate either. Most QBs in the NFL are mobile. Are you going to tell me Mahomes is a bad QB because he moves around in the pocket?

 

 

 

Stroud has looked fine but I'm still taking AR any day of the week. Upside + athleticism and he can develop as a passer. Think of it this way: We knew Stroud was going to be a good passer coming out. Whereas with AR, there were a lot of concerns over his accuracy. AR is the only one (so far) to show development from his college tape. Stroud still struggles under pressure and creating out of structure. People need to get over their love for pocket passers. This isn't the Peyton and Brady era anymore. You need to be mobile to succeed at the NFL level. 

I'm not underselling AR bc the truth is he has accuracy issues. I don't think there is anyone who will tell you he is anywhere near Stroud in terms of being a pocket passer. I think it's something he can do in the future.  It would be foolish to draft AR and ask him to come right in as a pocket passer in the manner they've asked Stroud to do.  But this was not meant to be an AR versus Stroud conversation at all. It is a Stroud convo. And there's always room for an accurate pocket passer who can't run. Brady was just in the Super Bowl a couple years back. I don't think any team will bypass a QB who can't run that well but he is a beast at passing. There is room for both QB profiles.

[Patrick Miller]

I would have taken Stoud. That being said I hope AR pans out. It would be nice to see him finish a game….that we won.  I know it’s still early though.

[Indyfan4life]

Stroud was my first choice as well. I really, really hope AR learns to start protecting himself better. 
 

Look what it has done for Tua. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 minutes ago, Indyfan4life said:

Stroud was my first choice as well. I really, really hope AR learns to start protecting himself better. 
 

Look what it has done for Tua. 

Stroud is 1 dimensional. That is the only problem I have with him. AR is Dual. If Stroud has all day to throw, then yes he is good. In other words, I don't trust Houston giving him a great line.

[DougDew]

57 minutes ago, krunk said:

I'm not underselling AR bc the truth is he has accuracy issues. I don't think there is anyone who will tell you he is anywhere near Stroud in terms of being a pocket passer. I think it's something he can do in the future.  It would be foolish to draft AR and ask him to come right in as a pocket passer in the manner they've asked Stroud to do.  But this was not meant to be an AR versus Stroud conversation at all. It is a Stroud convo. And there's always room for an accurate pocket passer who can't run. Brady was just in the Super Bowl a couple years back. I don't think any team will bypass a QB who can't run that well but he is a beast at passing. There is room for both QB profiles.

Well, the good passers don't have to run as often as the bad ones. 

 

Stroud can run well enough, extend a play well enough.  But successful pocket passing means that you don't have to do that.

 

I mean, the ball gets across the Line to Gain sooner through the air than by carrying it, so give me the great passer over the great runner any day.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Well, the good passers don't have to run as often as the bad ones. 

 

Stroud can run well enough, extend a play well enough.  But successful pocket passing means that you don't have to do that.

 

I mean, the ball gets across the Line to Gain faster through the air than carrying it, so give me the great passer over the great runner any day.

Yeah but it is Houston, like I always say, it is Jacksonville too - see Jacks yesterday.

[Qwiz]

6 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Stroud is 1 dimensional. That is the only problem I have with him. AR is Dual. If Stroud has all day to throw, then yes he is good. In other words, I don't trust Houston giving him a great line.

Meh. Just because he doesn’t like to run a lot doesn’t mean he is incapable of doing so. Any QB is going to excel if they have “all day” to throw, no one wants to be hassled in nonstop in the passing game. The Texans have already invested heavily in the O-line, through the draft and in free agency (Tunsil, Tytus, Mason, Scruggs, Green, etc.) They have just been devastated by injuries and still managed to destroy Jacksonville yesterday. 

[DougDew]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah but it is Houston, like I always say, it is Jacksonville too - see Jacks yesterday.

Stroud dropped a 40 yard bomb between double coverage to set up a TD.  If Trevor or AR tried that (college long ball "accuracy" aside), it would probably fall incomplete.  Then they have to run about 10 plays to get that 40 yards, with lots of bad things that can happen.

[Qwiz]

1 hour ago, krunk said:

I'm not underselling AR bc the truth is he has accuracy issues. I don't think there is anyone who will tell you he is anywhere near Stroud in terms of being a pocket passer. I think it's something he can do in the future.  It would be foolish to draft AR and ask him to come right in as a pocket passer in the manner they've asked Stroud to do.  But this was not meant to be an AR versus Stroud conversation at all. It is a Stroud convo. And there's always room for an accurate pocket passer who can't run. Brady was just in the Super Bowl a couple years back. I don't think any team will bypass a QB who can't run that well but he is a beast at passing. There is room for both QB profiles.

Yep. It is okay to give one player his props without having to compare or drag down another player. There seems to be a myth that the pure pocket passer has faded away. The elite QBs make plays in the pocket and can get on the move as well if need be. 

Just now, Qwiz said:

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Qwiz said:

Meh. Just because he doesn’t like to run a lot doesn’t mean he is incapable of doing so. Any QB is going to excel if they have “all day” to throw, no one wants to be hassled in nonstop in the passing game. The Texans have already invested heavily in the O-line, through the draft and in free agency (Tunsil, Tytus, Mason, Scruggs, Green, etc.) They have just been devastated by injuries and still managed to destroy Jacksonville yesterday. 

I love it, enjoy that big win and you took down the Mighty Lawrence. Great stuff!

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 hour ago, Blueblazes said:

Ding, ding, ding we have a winner. AR is fine is there's a jailbreak, but let's face it, there's a reason there's only 4 starting QBs in the NFL that think running first as much as passing first.

Despite what people think AR looks to pass first. He doesn’t want to be one dimensional.

[DougDew]

Just now, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Despite what people think AR looks to pass first. He doesn’t want to be one dimensional.

That may be, but nobody is praising him for his passing right now, yet still are saying that he is a good QB right now.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Texans might of dodged a bullet winning that game against colts and getting stroud instead of Young.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Stroud dropped a 40 yard bomb between double coverage to set up a TD.  If Trevor or AR tried that (college long ball "accuracy" aside), it would probably fall incomplete.  Then they have to run about 10 plays to get that 40 yards, with lots of bad things that can happen.

I disagree, AR has a strong arm, we just haven't used him like that yet. You a Huskers fan but probably don't remember this, an announcer said all Tommie could do is throw short. Then he hit his TE for 50 yard bomb in the air right after that, then the announcer said, ooops 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Just now, DougDew said:

That may be, but nobody is praising him for his passing right now, yet still are saying that he is a good QB right now.

He looks pretty good to me. He looks better then Minshew.

[Patrick Miller]

I want to see AR put together a complete game. We’ve seen flashes. 

[DougDew]

8 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

He looks pretty good to me. He looks better then Minshew.

I was talking about the concept of passing vs running for a QB.  Never mind

[stitches]

22 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Stroud dropped a 40 yard bomb between double coverage to set up a TD.  If Trevor or AR tried that (college long ball "accuracy" aside), it would probably fall incomplete.  Then they have to run about 10 plays to get that 40 yards, with lots of bad things that can happen.

Richardson was one of the best long-throw passers in college football last year.

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I was talking about the concept of passing vs running for a QB.  Never mind

Running the ball is very important, I don't want Entertainement. I want wins, stop the run, and run for over 100 yards, kick the ball well, and you win. What I look at for a QB is, Accuracy/clutch factor, and a guy that doesn't Turn it over. Teams that win the turnover battle, win 80% of the time which is an overwhelming fact. 

[DougDew]

6 minutes ago, stitches said:

Richardson was one of the best long-throw passers in college football last year.

Yes, I know.  And Young was great at a lot of things in college. 

 

Its very difficult to make that throw, and its obvious the way that HOU lit up JAX through the air, Ryans sees Stroud's passing ability differently than SS sees ARs passing ability...functions of what they want him to do.

[Patrick Miller]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Running the ball is very important, I don't want Entertainement. I want wins, stop the run, and run for over 100 yards, kick the ball well, and you win. What I look at for a QB is, Accuracy/clutch factor, and a guy that doesn't Turn it over. Teams that win the turnover battle, win 80% of the time which is an overwhelming fact. 

 You’re convinced AR has that factor?

[stitches]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Yes, I know.  And Young was great at a lot of things in college. 

 

Its very difficult to make that throw, and its obvious the way that HOU lit up JAX through the air, Ryans sees Stroud's passing ability differently than SS sees ARs passing ability in what they want him to do.

We will see in due time what Steichen sees in Richardson and what Richardson is ready for. Keep in mind that especially for Richardson this will be a few years process of development to anything resembling the final product. 

 

With that said... Stroud's ability to throw a pretty(and accurate) ball has never been the question. It's truly beautiful to watch when he has a clean platform.

 

I think both of them can be great QBs in this league, even if in different ways. They were my QB1 and QB2 in this draft and so far I feel good about my 'evaluation' but lets not get it twisted... it's still VERY VERY early for both of them. Just enjoy the ride... 

[DougDew]

1 minute ago, stitches said:

We will see in due time what Steichen sees in Richardson and what Richardson is ready for. Keep in mind that especially for Richardson this will be a few years process of development to anything resembling the final product. 

 

With that said... Stroud's ability to throw a pretty(and accurate) ball has never been the question. It's truly beautiful to watch when he has a clean platform.

 

I think both of them can be great QBs in this league, even if in different ways. They were my QB1 and QB2 in this draft and so far I feel good about my 'evaluation' but lets not get it twisted... it's still VERY VERY early for both of them. Just enjoy the ride... 

I thought maybe you were saying that you know AR is going to be Mahomes or Allen by the fact he played well during a scripted play opening drive.

 

I think AR is showing to have the poise he showed in college.  He has done better in the accuracy area than in college, but frankly, he seems less athletic then he looked...might have something to do with NFL caliber defender speed all over the field.

 

I haven't seen him do any long balls to compare with what he did in college....against college speed defenders.

[2006Coltsbestever]

18 minutes ago, Patrick Miller said:

 You’re convinced AR has that factor?

I am not 100% convinced that AR has the 'IT' Factor because I am not sure he can still healthy. If he stays healthy, then yes, he looks the part so far. .Doesn't he?

[stitches]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

I thought maybe you were saying that you know AR is going to be Mahomes or Allen by the fact he played well during a scripted play opening drive.

I don't KNOW it... but that's the hope. That he will develop into something resembling Allen. Maybe even better. But we are not there or close to it right now... so... for now executing a scripted play drive seamlessly is a good start. Better than Allen was in his rookie year anyways. 

 

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

I think AR is showing to have the poise he showed in college.  He has done better in the accuracy area than in college, but frankly, he seems less athletic then he looked...might have something to do with NFL caliber defender speed all over the field.

I don't think he looks less athletic. But yes - the NFL defenders make the margins and spaces much much tighter. This is not surprising. He has 3 seamless rushing TDs in 5 quarters of play. 

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

I haven't seen him do any long balls to compare with what he did in college....against college speed defenders.

I kind of feel like he's trying too hard to be methodical and quick with his reads right now and he probably misses a few deep shots because of it. JT O'Sullivan pointed out one such opportunity in one of his videos. BTW, keep in mind that coverage dictates a lot of what areas of the field offenses target. For example, in game 1 vs the Jags they played almost exclusively 2 deep zone, which is specifically designed to take away the deep shots. It's not a bad thing that Richardson didn't test them repeatedly, on the contrary - it's good that he played within the offense and tried to execute rather than hero-ball. 

 

But he did throw that beautiful deep out route that Pierce dropped in pre-season. I don't have much doubts that AR can actually make those throws. 

[Patrick Miller]

52 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am not 100% convinced that AR has the 'IT' Factor because I am not sure he can still healthy. If he stays healthy, then yes, he looks the part so far. .Doesn't he?

I need to see more. I want to see consistency with accuracy. I want to see him actually finish a game.

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 minutes ago, Patrick Miller said:

I need to see more. I want to see consistency with accuracy. I want to see him actually finish a game.

Fair point, can't debate it, I do too.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

We will see in due time what Steichen sees in Richardson and what Richardson is ready for. Keep in mind that especially for Richardson this will be a few years process of development to anything resembling the final product. 

 

With that said... Stroud's ability to throw a pretty(and accurate) ball has never been the question. It's truly beautiful to watch when he has a clean platform.

 

I think both of them can be great QBs in this league, even if in different ways. They were my QB1 and QB2 in this draft and so far I feel good about my 'evaluation' but lets not get it twisted... it's still VERY VERY early for both of them. Just enjoy the ride... 

 

Richardson has played two games. We don't really know anything yet.

[krunk]

2 hours ago, Qwiz said:

Yep. It is okay to give one player his props without having to compare or drag down another player. There seems to be a myth that the pure pocket passer has faded away. The elite QBs make plays in the pocket and can get on the move as well if need be. 

I think Stroud is going to be very good.

[husker61]

2 hours ago, stitches said:

Richardson was one of the best long-throw passers in college football last year.

But this isn’t college. Throwing against nfl secondaries is a huge step up! You have to anticipate the receiver getting open, not throw to a open receiver most of the time in college.

[chad72]

5 minutes ago, husker61 said:

But this isn’t college. Throwing against nfl secondaries is a huge step up! You have to anticipate the receiver getting open, not throw to a open receiver most of the time in college.

 

...and on top of that, you need the coach to take a few chances and not be gun shy, thus protecting his rookie QB. I mean a deep throw intercepted at the opponent 5 can just be as good as a punt, so it is worth taking a shot at the right time.

[husker61]

7 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

...and on top of that, you need the coach to take a few chances and not be gun shy, thus protecting his rookie QB. I mean a deep throw intercepted at the opponent 5 can just be as good as a punt, so it is worth taking a shot at the right time.

he is probably not comfortable with his reads to make those throws. He only had one year of college fb, he is a very raw qb.

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, stitches said:

I kind of feel like he's trying too hard to be methodical and quick with his reads right now and he probably misses a few deep shots because of it. JT O'Sullivan pointed out one such opportunity in one of his videos. BTW, keep in mind that coverage dictates a lot of what areas of the field offenses target. For example, in game 1 vs the Jags they played almost exclusively 2 deep zone, which is specifically designed to take away the deep shots. It's not a bad thing that Richardson didn't test them repeatedly, on the contrary - it's good that he played within the offense and tried to execute rather than hero-ball. 

 

But he did throw that beautiful deep out route that Pierce dropped in pre-season. I don't have much doubts that AR can actually make those throws. 

My comments in this thread are in context relative to Stroud.  In college, Stroud was a thrower, and it appears HOU is not bashful to use him that way.

 

AR was not really a thrower in college....we all know it wasn't NFL quality.  SS hasn't used him as a thrower, so in the context of what I think it takes to be a competent and then a very good NFL QB, AR hasn't provided much outside of one early drive.

 

We can make assumptions about what he's reading and what he could be doing, but he's not performing like Stroud in the passing game (after three games. LOL).

[#12.]

1 hour ago, krunk said:

I think Stroud is going to be very good.

 

Very, very good.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

If Taylor does come back to play for Colts it’s going to open up those deep shots because they have to bring the safeties up because of Taylor’s home run ability.

[cbear]

Iirc, the majority of this board was hoping Stroud would fall to us and also that AR was the least favored one, even below Levis.

 

I would still pick Stroud today and my magic ball still favors him to be the better QB when all is said and done.

 

But AR is showing signs that he could be a really good one as well and I'm feeling much better about him today then when we picked him. 

[cbear]

14 minutes ago, DougDew said:

My comments in this thread are in context relative to Stroud.  In college, Stroud was a thrower, and it appears HOU is not bashful to use him that way.

 

AR was not really a thrower in college....we all know it wasn't NFL quality.  SS hasn't used him as a thrower, so in the context of what I think it takes to be a competent and then a very good NFL QB, AR hasn't provided much outside of one early drive.

 

We can make assumptions about what he's reading and what he could be doing, but he's not performing like Stroud in the passing game (after three games. LOL).

Yes, you scheme around what your players can do now. Who knows what it will look like later, but if Steichen was trying to use AR like Stroud today, I think it would hamper his progress and wouldn't utilize what he does well now. 

[Dingus McGirt]

AR…