Peyton left off list?

[2006Coltsbestever]

23 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

He can already say whatever he wants. It doesn't really matter. A hundred people could post their top five lists, and you'd probably get 100 different lists. Anyone can have their opinions, it's totally subjective, and ultimately irrelevant.

 

Also, I say this as a huge Manning fan, and a long time Brady/Patriot hater: I don't think there's an objective argument for anyone other than Brady being the best QB of all time. Manning is absolutely my favorite, and I think he was a better player at his peak than Brady ever was, but Brady's overall career and resume make this a dead argument. It's really been that way since SB51, and Brady has another two SB wins and an MVP since then.

 

I don't agree with the Elway thing, though. In fact, I'd probably put Marino ahead of Elway.

Of course anyone can say what they want but not everyone is Jim Irsay. If you look at my list, I have Tom Brady #1. You bring up resume so Emmitt Smith should be ranked higher than Barry Sanders on any list you do because Emmitt has the best resume of any RB that has ever played including Jim Brown.

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

It is all opinion and how different people use different measures to rank players. Unitas is on my Mt Rushmore of QB's list in which you can only have 4. He would also make my top 10 players list. Like I said it is all opinion but I look at stuff even like what ERA a player played in. Realistically trying to put a QB on a top 10 list like Otto Graham is impossible because of the ERA he played in. When he played the forward pass was rarely used and QB's back then statistically just don't measure up to QB's from the 1980's to now. Unitas is really the only one that does, even Terry Bradshaw's stats were average at best. To me League MVP's are very important because that is an individual award generally won by the best/or most important player in football - Peyton has 5. Championships are factored in but Football is a team game so it isn't the only factor. Stats, how dominant a QB/player was, and Clutch factor are huge factors for me when ranking players.

 

My top 10 list to stretch it out more would be:

1. Tom Brady - Many call him a cheat, but he when he won that SB in Tampa Bay that was 100% legit. IMO Belichick was the cheater for the most part. Brady could have won without any of the nonsense that went on. He proved it in Tampa. 7-time SB winner as a starter, and 3 League MVP's.

 

2. Lawrence Taylor - He actually won a League MVP in 1986 and to me was the greatest Pass Rusher of all-time. Was a 2-time SB winner.

 

3. Joe Montana - Mr Clutch, 4-0 in SB's with 0 INT's in those 4 games. He also won League MVP twice in his career.

 

4. Jim Brown - Set the tone for all runners = RB's/FB's. He won 3 League MVP's, no RB has ever done that.

 

5. Peyton Manning - Won 5 League MVP's, won 2 SB's as a starter for 2 different franchises. 1 man wrecking crew!

 

6. Jerry Rice - Holds all the major records for WR's. No brainer that he is a top 10 player ever.

 

7. Ray Lewis - Was a QB on defense and was the Ravens heart and soul for 2 decades. 2-time SB winner.

 

8. Emmitt Smith - Say what you want about Smith, (that he had a great O.Line blah blah). He is the all-time leading Rusher, 3-time SB winner, and even won a League MVP in 1993.

 

9. Johnny Unitas - 1st great QB that put up big numbers, he helped change the game. He won 2 NFL Championships, and a SB as a starter + multiple League MVP's.

 

10. Deion Sanders - Greatest Cover Corner ever, he took away half the field. There is nobody now or in the past that has been anywhere near as great as he was coverage wise. He was also a dangerous Punt Returner.

 

-This is just my top 10 and all 10 of these guys dominated their position for a long time, won multiple championships, and all the offensive players I have listed at least won 1 League MVP.

I would probably put Reggie White 11th, I can do this all day. I love this stuff but I am a history guy - How about Larry Allen's bench press of 700 pound  . I have to have an O.Lineman in my top 12.

[w87r]

6 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

but he when he won that SB in Tampa Bay that was 100% legit

Ehhh.

 

I mean, it might of been legit in the cheating department.

 

 

I seem to remember quite a few "ghost PI calls"  Golden Boy got in route to that SB.

 

 

That goes to another issue though. Knew those phantom calls were coming before they did.

[jvan1973]

If someone made me as much money as Peyton made Jim, that dude would be on my list. 

[jvan1973]

1 minute ago, w87r said:

Ehhh.

 

I mean, it might of been legit in the cheating department.

 

 

I seem to remember quite a few "ghost PI calls"  Golden Boy got in route to that SB.

 

 

That goes to another issue though. Knew those phantom calls were coming before they did.

How about the non calls we got against the Patriots in the playoffs

[w87r]

2 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

If someone made me as much money as Peyton made Jim, that dude would be on my list. 

Even if he's not. He's on the list

 

1 minute ago, jvan1973 said:

How about the non calls we got against the Patriots in the playoffs

Yeah we all know about those.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2722638-tony-dungy-ranks-tom-brady-no-6-on-his-list-of-best-qbs-since-1978#:~:text=Former NFL head coach Tony Dungy is catching,coaches and front-office executives to formulate the list.

 

Dungy has Brady 6th on his QB list since '78.....that's still way too high for me considering the pats ill reputation. 

 

But still, Dungy shows that he "gets it" and not afraid to show that he does.

PROPS TO DUNGY.

[BlackTiger]

I would go 

 

Brady

Rice

Lt

Mahomes

Manning

[Indianapolis-Colts-Fan]

There’s not really such a thing as a top 5 or 10 players of all time. The talent gap between players isn’t that big to afford it. So really it’s all just opinion and has little to do with reality. 
 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 hours ago, w87r said:

Ehhh.

 

I mean, it might of been legit in the cheating department.

 

 

I seem to remember quite a few "ghost PI calls"  Golden Boy got in route to that SB.

 

 

That goes to another issue though. Knew those phantom calls were coming before they did.

Yeah the cheating department is where I was going with that. Of course in the 2003 AFC Title Game I felt like the Pats got away with defensive holding a lot. You have DeflateGate as well. The Championship in Tampa made me gain more respect for Brady than I had for him. Since Brady has left the Pats, Belichick is a .500 coach.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 hours ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2722638-tony-dungy-ranks-tom-brady-no-6-on-his-list-of-best-qbs-since-1978#:~:text=Former NFL head coach Tony Dungy is catching,coaches and front-office executives to formulate the list.

 

Dungy has Brady 6th on his QB list since '78.....that's still way too high for me considering the pats ill reputation. 

 

But still, Dungy shows that he "gets it" and not afraid to show that he does.

PROPS TO DUNGY.

- here is Homer when he see's Dungy walk into a room and says Brady isn't top 5  

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 hours ago, Indianapolis-Colts-Fan said:

There’s not really such a thing as a top 5 or 10 players of all time. The talent gap between players isn’t that big to afford it. So really it’s all just opinion and has little to do with reality. 
 

 

True but my top 10 is all that counts (joking) 

[Superman]

5 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Of course anyone can say what they want but not everyone is Jim Irsay. If you look at my list, I have Tom Brady #1. You bring up resume so Emmitt Smith should be ranked higher than Barry Sanders on any list you do because Emmitt has the best resume of any RB that has ever played including Jim Brown.

 

Not really. First, it's not egregious to have Emmitt Smith ahead of Barry Sanders, and many do. (I personally favor Sanders as a player, but it's not hard to admit that Smith had a better career.)

 

But more importantly, in 2005, Brady had three SB wins, and Manning hadn't even been to one. I had Manning ahead of Brady at that point. It's not just about SB wins, it's about total overall production and legacy.

 

Unlike in 2005, Brady now has more yards, more completions, more TD passes, and a higher passer rating than Peyton Manning. He has an incredible (and maybe untouchable) record in the postseason. He was part of the greatest comeback in SB history. And of course, 3 MVPs, 2 Offensive POYs, 7 SB wins, 5 SB MVPs... And a lot of that damage came in his 40s, when he was still a top five QB, so his longevity becomes a factor in the discussion as well. Objectively speaking, it's just not really a debate anymore. When you rank QBs, Brady has to come before Manning, as much as I don't want to say it.

 

By the way, I really hate that you're making me do this.

 

Like I said, Irsay should have just said that he's purposely excluding Colts from his list, and then he would have been able to avoid the criticism. But the more realistic criticism is Elway over Manning. Brady over Manning is established fact at this point.

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2722638-tony-dungy-ranks-tom-brady-no-6-on-his-list-of-best-qbs-since-1978#:~:text=Former NFL head coach Tony Dungy is catching,coaches and front-office executives to formulate the list.

 

Dungy has Brady 6th on his QB list since '78.....that's still way too high for me considering the pats ill reputation. 

 

But still, Dungy shows that he "gets it" and not afraid to show that he does.

PROPS TO DUNGY.

By the way, this Dungy ranking of Brady as the 6th best QB of all time is missing some very important context.   The story is from summer of 2017.   Six years ago.   I don’t know if Dungy has ever updated this list but I strongly suspect he has.  

[w87r]

11 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

By the way, this Dungy ranking of Brady as the 6th best QB of all time is missing some very important context.   The story is from summer of 2017.   Six years ago.   I don’t know if Dungy has ever updated this list but I strongly suspect he has.  

You would hope so, but Brady has 5 rings at that point. So maybe not?

[GoColts8818]

 

[w87r]

4 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

 

[Shaolin06]

I think we should just have the top 5 be by position like by qb, rb wr, etc... There's so many great players to choose from. its hard to get everyone to agree on a top 10 greatest players list let alone the top 5. I could name about 15 to 20 players  that we could debate about but that's just my opinion 

[chrisfarley]

Top 5 Greatest Walk-Backs of all time?

1.  Jim Irsay

2.  ?

3.  ?

4.  ?

5.  ?

[dgambill]

9 hours ago, Superman said:

Overall, I don't care. I saw the list when Irsay first posted it, and my first thought was 'wow, he left Peyton off, that's gonna be interesting.' But it doesn't really matter to me.

 

But I do agree there's some distance between Irsay/Colts and Manning, and there might be some beef. It could also just be the result of Irsay's desire to have a contender without Manning, which along with other circumstances has led to Manning being more involved with the Broncos than with the Colts in recent years. He even did the Broncos schedule release video. All of this isn't a big deal IMO, but it doesn't help bridge whatever gap there is between the Colts and Manning.

 

If Irsay was really worried about perception, he probably wouldn't have shared this list. Or he could have just said 'this is purposely non Colts.' But Irsay isn't a guy who worries about perception, for better or worse.

 

And I guess, even though Irsay doesn't worry about this stuff, it is disappointing to the fans on some level that the greatest Colts player of all time isn't closely connected with the organization anymore. And it's probably fair to say that Irsay, as the chairman of the franchise, should be making it his goal to bring Manning more into the fold, not doing things that could further alienate him. In that way, I guess I'd agree that this is a miss on Irsay's part.

This is spot on. It’s clear Irsay and Peyton haven’t mended all the fences. Irsay needs Peyton more than Peyton needs Irsay. To have the greatest Indianapolis Colt of all time be alienated from your team and your friends is horrible optics, horrible marketing, and horrible for business. Irsay fails in all these areas. It’s never wrong to ask for forgiveness, to make amends, to admit mistakes or try to do the right thing. Irsay is too proud to or just not capable of seeing that fans root for players…not owners. Jim just doesn’t get it…and probably never will. In his mind he is the greatest member of the Colts. As an owner you have an obligation to your fans and your franchise to be a steward. A leader. He has shown time and again he is not very good at that. He only continues to hurt Colts fans by alienating Peyton even more. 
 

I don’t blame Peyton for repping the Broncos. They’ve been nothing but a class organization and very loyal to him. Not only did they do everything to put a team around him but when he probably didn’t deserve it they gave him a second chance at the end and in return they all succeeded by trusting Peyton to trust his teammates to win. 

Ive not seen Peyton say a single thing about Irsay over the years but Irsay has a habit of making these little jabs towards Peyton. Maybe just once Peyton should make a list of the greatest owners in the league and put Kraft on it instead of Irsay.

[dgambill]

43 minutes ago, chrisfarley said:

Top 5 Greatest Walk-Backs of all time?

1.  Jim Irsay

2.  ?

3.  ?

4.  ?

5.  ?

That’s too funny!!

[Dunk]

Aside from the Peyton snub. I get why Jimmy is saying Jim Brown is the greatest.

Watch his highlights, a lot of them look like Brown is an adult playing back yard football against a bunch of kids.

He runs past, or through defenders like they don't exist.

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Not really. First, it's not egregious to have Emmitt Smith ahead of Barry Sanders, and many do. (I personally favor Sanders as a player, but it's not hard to admit that Smith had a better career.)

 

But more importantly, in 2005, Brady had three SB wins, and Manning hadn't even been to one. I had Manning ahead of Brady at that point. It's not just about SB wins, it's about total overall production and legacy.

 

Unlike in 2005, Brady now has more yards, more completions, more TD passes, and a higher passer rating than Peyton Manning. He has an incredible (and maybe untouchable) record in the postseason. He was part of the greatest comeback in SB history. And of course, 3 MVPs, 2 Offensive POYs, 7 SB wins, 5 SB MVPs... And a lot of that damage came in his 40s, when he was still a top five QB, so his longevity becomes a factor in the discussion as well. Objectively speaking, it's just not really a debate anymore. When you rank QBs, Brady has to come before Manning, as much as I don't want to say it.

 

By the way, I really hate that you're making me do this.

 

Like I said, Irsay should have just said that he's purposely excluding Colts from his list, and then he would have been able to avoid the criticism. But the more realistic criticism is Elway over Manning. Brady over Manning is established fact at this point.

"By the way, I really hate that you're making me do this". 

 

I know you do but I also hate that I have Brady #1 on a Colts website being a diehard Colts fan . When I do lists I am not biased and go by what I see, who accomplished what, etc.. Peyton was definitely better than Elway though, I can't see how that can be argued. Peyton had 5 League MVP's to Elways 1, both won 2 SB's but Peyton won with 2 different teams, and stats wise Peyton smokes him.

[chad72]

On 5/22/2023 at 12:02 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah to win 2 SB's as a starter is tough, he already just did that but he may not win another. Football is a strange sport sometime.

It took Brady 10 years before he started winning again with his 4th. Elway and Brady’s calling cards are longevity with stats and SB wins (Peyton has that too)  but Peyton and Brady got SBs with different franchises (Peyton went to a SB with 4 different HCs). He says Elway didn’t have supporting cast but outside our HOF pass rushers, I’d be hard pressed to find great support for Peyton on the defensive front and even worse on the special teams front. 
 

A very myopic justification for putting Elway in the Top 5 list, IMO. No positives from a Colts fan point of view for putting out this list. 

[chad72]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

But the more realistic criticism is Elway over Manning. Brady over Manning is established fact at this point.

Yep!!! Nailed it!!!

[rockywoj]

10 hours ago, Superman said:

 

He can already say whatever he wants. It doesn't really matter. A hundred people could post their top five lists, and you'd probably get 100 different lists. Anyone can have their opinions, it's totally subjective, and ultimately irrelevant.

 

Also, I say this as a huge Manning fan, and a long time Brady/Patriot hater: I don't think there's an objective argument for anyone other than Brady being the best QB of all time. Manning is absolutely my favorite, and I think he was a better player at his peak than Brady ever was, but Brady's overall career and resume make this a dead argument. It's really been that way since SB51, and Brady has another two SB wins and an MVP since then.

 

I don't agree with the Elway thing, though. In fact, I'd probably put Marino ahead of Elway.

I ABSOLUTELY put Marino ahead of Elway!

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 hours ago, rockywoj said:

I ABSOLUTELY put Marino ahead of Elway!

It really depends how much you or anyone else values Championships. Football is a team game but the QB is the most important position on the field. Marino never having won a SB sticks out like a sore thumb. I get Bradshaw won 4 for example but his stats were average at best as I stated in my initial post. Elway had stats that were comparable to Marino's + the 2 SB wins. I have Elway rated higher than Marino.

 

Marino is a top 10 QB of all-time IMO but I would also have Rodgers and Brees ahead of him as well. Rodgers has won 4 League MVP's + he did get the 1 SB win, Brees statistically is tough to match + he also won 1 SB. Brees not having any League MVP's hurts his resume though.

 

I think players that played their whole career before 1958 should have their own category = Otto Graham, Sammy Baugh, etc.. The league really noticeably raised a level when Unitas and Jim Brown became stars in 1958. Also trying to compare Otto Graham or Sammy Baugh to a Brady or Manning is impossible because the game was 100% different back in the 40's and early 50's. Unitas and Brown at least have stats that stand out.

[Superman]

14 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

 

 

[John Waylon]

Well that tweet turned into a pile of dog % that we’ve had to make multiple passes through and now it’s been tracked all over the carpet…

 

I love Jim Irsay but he botched this one, and the backtracking still going on several days later just goes to prove it. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, John Waylon said:

Well that tweet turned into a pile of dog % that we’ve had to make multiple passes through and now it’s been tracked all over the carpet…

 

I love Jim Irsay but he botched this one, and the backtracking still going on several days later just goes to prove it. 

[stitches]

30 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

 

 

 

[ADnum1]

Brady is the GOAT.  Sorry to say it but its true no matter how much it hurts.

 

I liked Emmitt Smith.  He was a great RB but he was surrounded by an incredible Oline and Troy Aikman and Irvin so defenses couldn't key in on Emmitt.

 

Thats why I liked Barry Sanders better.  He played for a very bad team and put up amazing stats.  No way Emmitt puts up the same numbers playing for the Lions.

 

I got no problem putting Marino ahead of Elway.

 

I think we have to consider how good or bad the teams around these players were.

[Superman]

13 hours ago, dgambill said:

This is spot on. It’s clear Irsay and Peyton haven’t mended all the fences. Irsay needs Peyton more than Peyton needs Irsay. To have the greatest Indianapolis Colt of all time be alienated from your team and your friends is horrible optics, horrible marketing, and horrible for business. Irsay fails in all these areas. It’s never wrong to ask for forgiveness, to make amends, to admit mistakes or try to do the right thing. Irsay is too proud to or just not capable of seeing that fans root for players…not owners. Jim just doesn’t get it…and probably never will. In his mind he is the greatest member of the Colts. As an owner you have an obligation to your fans and your franchise to be a steward. A leader. He has shown time and again he is not very good at that. He only continues to hurt Colts fans by alienating Peyton even more. 
 

I don’t blame Peyton for repping the Broncos. They’ve been nothing but a class organization and very loyal to him. Not only did they do everything to put a team around him but when he probably didn’t deserve it they gave him a second chance at the end and in return they all succeeded by trusting Peyton to trust his teammates to win. 

Ive not seen Peyton say a single thing about Irsay over the years but Irsay has a habit of making these little jabs towards Peyton. Maybe just once Peyton should make a list of the greatest owners in the league and put Kraft on it instead of Irsay.

 

I'm not as anti-Irsay on this as you are. After all, I think Irsay has done plenty to honor Peyton, and he would probably make room for him in the organization if Peyton wanted an official role (JMO).

 

But I agree that there's some kind of rivalry somewhere, and obviously some resentment going both ways. It's not shocking that this would be the case, but it is disappointing, as a Colts/Manning fan. It's also not uncommon when a legendary player leaves before he's ready. I also don't think it's necessarily coming from a selfish place on the part of ownership; they probably worry about losing part of their fanbase if/when a great player leaves or retires. And along the way, I don't know that Irsay has intentionally taken digs at Manning, but a lot of his comments have come across as less than grateful for Manning's legacy and what it did for the Colts' standing.

 

And it's just kind of the circumstance that it's easier for Manning to be closely involved with the Broncos. He decided to set up shop in Denver, and they weren't able to immediately replace him with a highly touted prospect so they don't need to worry about him casting too big of a shadow over the organization. 

[Superman]

6 minutes ago, stitches said:

 

 

 

 

Proves two things to me. First, Irsay does have some level of self-awareness. I wasn't sure after he was talking about sausages, quartiles, and building rockets.

 

Second, Irsay obviously reads his mentions on Twitter.

[Myles]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm not as anti-Irsay on this as you are. After all, I think Irsay has done plenty to honor Peyton, and he would probably make room for him in the organization if Peyton wanted an official role (JMO).

 

But I agree that there's some kind of rivalry somewhere, and obviously some resentment going both ways. It's not shocking that this would be the case, but it is disappointing, as a Colts/Manning fan. It's also not uncommon when a legendary player leaves before he's ready. I also don't think it's necessarily coming from a selfish place on the part of ownership; they probably worry about losing part of their fanbase if/when a great player leaves or retires. And along the way, I don't know that Irsay has intentionally taken digs at Manning, but a lot of his comments have come across as less than grateful for Manning's legacy and what it did for the Colts' standing.

 

And it's just kind of the circumstance that it's easier for Manning to be closely involved with the Broncos. He decided to set up shop in Denver, and they weren't able to immediately replace him with a highly touted prospect so they don't need to worry about him casting too big of a shadow over the organization. 

I find this to be very stupid of Irsay.   Elway, but not Manning.  Besides Elway burning the Colts at his draft, Manning was much better than Elway.

 

 

[NFLfan]

1 hour ago, PRnum1 said:

Brady is the GOAT.  Sorry to say it but its true no matter how much it hurts.

 

I liked Emmitt Smith.  He was a great RB but he was surrounded by an incredible Oline and Troy Aikman and Irvin so defenses couldn't key in on Emmitt.

 

Thats why I liked Barry Sanders better.  He played for a very bad team and put up amazing stats.  No way Emmitt puts up the same numbers playing for the Lions.

 

I got no problem putting Marino ahead of Elway.

 

I think we have to consider how good or bad the teams around these players were.

 

Since all of this is subjective, fans will never agree on who the top five are, especially when comparing players at different positions. Comparing players at the same position is easier to do but then there are other variables to consider, as you pointed out. I recall liking Barry Sanders more than Emmitt Smith. That may have been partly influenced by my great dislike for the Cowboys. But I enjoyed watching Barry make all his many moves (more entertaining than Emmitt). But Sanders also had many stops for losses because of his running left and right. I wonder how great he could have been if he had the OL that Emmitt was blessed with on the Cowboys.

 

I liked Elway, Marino, Peyton, Rivers, and many more. I just wished one of them had played for the Vikings.

[NFLfan]

22 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I would probably put Reggie White 11th, I can do this all day. I love this stuff but I am a history guy - How about Larry Allen's bench press of 700 pound  . I have to have an O.Lineman in my top 12.

 

You love comparing players and teams.   It is fun.

 

Top OT???  I think most players would say that was Anthony Muñoz.

 

[Moosejawcolt]

On 5/21/2023 at 11:12 AM, w87r said:

Definitely was intentional.

 

Follow up tweet after getting backlash from Colts fans.

 

 

I always felt that Elway is very under rated. People have to remember that  I  dont believe he did not play with one hall of fame player on offence. You look at all the great qbs and they had many and/or border line hall of fame players. Elway is the greatest qb talent ever coming out of college. You put him on those other teams and he may have won 6 super bowls

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I always felt that Elway is very under rated. People have to remember that  I  dont believe he did not play with one hall of fame player on offence. You look at all the great qbs and they had many and/or border line hall of fame players. Elway is the greatest qb talent ever coming out of college. You put him on those other teams and he may have won 6 super bowls

 

 

 

[Myles]

25 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I always felt that Elway is very under rated. People have to remember that  I  dont believe he did not play with one hall of fame player on offence. You look at all the great qbs and they had many and/or border line hall of fame players. Elway is the greatest qb talent ever coming out of college. You put him on those other teams and he may have won 6 super bowls

I always felt the opposite.  I thought he was overrated.  People always bring up his comeback wins.  I counter with - He has to be losing to comeback.