Has anyone considered Lamar Jackson? (merge)

[chad72]

1 minute ago, ChuggaBeer said:

 

OMG, I have got to admit, this is freaking hilarious.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

This is a big reason colts will not go after Lamar. With Lamar Irsay will expect instant success. There will be no time to grow. With a rookie as long as Irsay sees we are moving in the right direction Ballard will be safe. It’s a much bigger gamble to take Lamar then a rookie.

 

 

[chad72]

Our team is not bad enough to get the No.4 pick or a Top 5 pick every year. It was a confluence of so many bad things happening at the same time. This team, with Wentz at QB, was good enough for a middle of the round record, and that is what this roster is. So, if we don't take a swing at a QB at our current draft position or use such high draft equity for a swing at a future QB or FA QB, we will never attain any kind of ceiling. That is what we all Colts fans need to keep in mind. 

 

Just like we are asking if anyone remembers how much the Bills ponied up for Josh Allen or the Chiefs ponied up for Patrick Mahomes in draft equity (and they ended up paying them good QB money too) when they have a chance at the SB every year, the same question will be asked about us if we swung and hit on Lamar. Everyone will forget what we paid for him if things work out and there is a very good chance it will if we take that leap of faith. That is all I am going to say.

[ChuggaBeer]

3 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Our team is not bad enough to get the No.4 pick or a Top 5 pick every year. It was a confluence of so many bad things happening at the same time. This team, with Wentz at QB, was good enough for a middle of the round record, and that is what this roster is. So, if we don't take a swing at a QB at our current draft position or use such high draft equity for a swing at a future QB or FA QB, we will never attain any kind of ceiling. That is what we all Colts fans need to keep in mind. 

 

Just like we are asking if anyone remembers how much the Bills ponied up for Josh Allen or the Chiefs ponied up for Patrick Mahomes in draft equity (and they ended up paying them good QB money too) when they have a chance at the SB every year, the same question will be asked about us if we swung and hit on Lamar. Everyone will forget what we paid for him if things work out and there is a very good chance it will if we take that leap of faith. That is all I am going to say.

@Moosejawcolt posted this in its own thread.   And makes a great deal of sense.  Baltimore may take #4     Maybe?  Who knows. But Ballard owes it to the team and his future to dig into this 

 

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

12 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Our team is not bad enough to get the No.4 pick or a Top 5 pick every year. It was a confluence of so many bad things happening at the same time. This team, with Wentz at QB, was good enough for a middle of the round record, and that is what this roster is. So, if we don't take a swing at a QB at our current draft position or use such high draft equity for a swing at a future QB or FA QB, we will never attain any kind of ceiling. That is what we all Colts fans need to keep in mind. 

 

Just like we are asking if anyone remembers how much the Bills ponied up for Josh Allen or the Chiefs ponied up for Patrick Mahomes in draft equity (and they ended up paying them good QB money too) when they have a chance at the SB every year, the same question will be asked about us if we swung and hit on Lamar. Everyone will forget what we paid for him if things work out and there is a very good chance it will if we take that leap of faith. That is all I am going to say.

There is a bigger chance he busts then succeeds here.

[chad72]

1 minute ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

There is a bigger chance he busts then succeeds here.

Actually, the opposite. Steichen helped a one read and run QB in Hurts to develop his game to a proficient passer. He can do just as much if not more with Lamar, IMO.

[ChuggaBeer]

Just now, chad72 said:

Actually, the opposite. Steichen helped a one read and run QB in Hurts to develop his game to a proficient passer. He can do just as much if not more with Lamar, IMO.

Yep. Lamar could run this offense even better than Hurts 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Actually, the opposite. Steichen helped a one read and run QB in Hurts to develop his game to a proficient passer. He can do just as much if not more with Lamar, IMO.

Until he isn’t available to play. For some reason fans just want to ignore not finishing the season 2 years in a row. 

[chad72]

6 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Until he isn’t available to play. For some reason fans just want to ignore not finishing the season 2 years in a row. 

When you get weapons to pass, you don’t have to run your QB to the ground.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 minute ago, chad72 said:

When you get weapons to pass, you don’t have to run your QB to the ground.  

Question did ravens not get better at Wr because they knew his strengths? Or did they just not get him WR. Lamar has to have a very specific offense to have success.

[chad72]

7 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Question did ravens not get better at Wr because they knew his strengths? Or did they just not get him WR. Lamar has to have a very specific offense to have success.

Ravens OL was bottom half in 2020 and 2021, top 5 in his 2019 MVP year, he needs OL help just like any other QB so that he’s not in the run constantly trying to make plays out of structure a lot. 
 

 

[GoColts8818]

18 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Actually, the opposite. Steichen helped a one read and run QB in Hurts to develop his game to a proficient passer. He can do just as much if not more with Lamar, IMO.

I don’t think it’s an issue of could Lamar work in Steichen’s offense.  I think Lamar would work in just about any coaches offense because they would develop it to his strengths and he’s a special player that will find success just about anywhere.
 

I think the reasons the Colts won’t get him are they aren’t going to be willing to part with two first round draft picks at least, pay him a large contract that will probably impact what they can do with other players on the roster and prevent them from acquiring other  players they need, and that he still wants a guaranteed contract and Irsay said today that he doesn’t believe in those.  
 

Add in the fact that Irsay keeps talking about no more short cuts and strongly hinting he wants to draft a QB and the Colts are in position to do just that then you have your answer on what they are going to do.  
 

Do I think Ballard is doing his homework on Lamar?  Yeah, I do.  He’d be a fool not too.  However, I think it would take something major to change like Lamar making it known he wants to be a Colt and is willing to take a non guaranteed contract to make it happen.  Even then you have to get past the fact the Ravens have no interest in trading him.  
 

All and all I don’t think the stars are aligning for Jackson to end up with the Colts.  I think they are aligning for them to take a QB at number four in the draft.  That’s just my read of the situation and I could be 100% wrong.  

[ChuggaBeer]

7 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Question did ravens not get better at Wr because they knew his strengths? Or did they just not get him WR. Lamar has to have a very specific offense to have success.

Do you honestly think he could not have traded places with Hurts and been as good or better?

[chad72]

5 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

I don’t think it’s an issue of could Lamar work in Steichen’s offense.  I think Lamar would work in just about any coaches offense because they would develop it to his strengths and he’s a special player that will find success just about anywhere.
 

I think the reasons the Colts won’t get him are they aren’t going to be willing to part with two first round draft picks at least, pay him a large contract that will probably impact what they can do with other players on the roster and prevent them from acquiring other  players they need, and that he still wants a guaranteed contract and Irsay said today that he doesn’t believe in those.  
 

Add in the fact that Irsay keeps talking about no more short cuts and strongly hinting he wants to draft a QB and the Colts are in position to do just that then you have your answer on what they are going to do.  
 

Do I think Ballard is doing his homework on Lamar?  Yeah, I do.  He’d be a fool not too.  However, I think it would take something major to change like Lamar making it known he wants to be a Colt and is willing to take a non guaranteed contract to make it happen.  Even then you have to get past the fact the Ravens have no interest in trading him.  
 

All and all I don’t think the stars are aligning for Jackson to end up with the Colts.  I think they are aligning for them to take a QB at number four in the draft.  That’s just my read of the situation and I could be 100% wrong.  

One has to hope the Ravens and Lamar have enough bad blood that it will cost us only our No.4 pick and maybe two 2nd rounders given the value of the high pick. But yes, it’s not likely the Ravens give him up that easily AND the Colts overpay.

[richard pallo]

7 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Our team is not bad enough to get the No.4 pick or a Top 5 pick every year. It was a confluence of so many bad things happening at the same time. This team, with Wentz at QB, was good enough for a middle of the round record, and that is what this roster is. So, if we don't take a swing at a QB at our current draft position or use such high draft equity for a swing at a future QB or FA QB, we will never attain any kind of ceiling. That is what we all Colts fans need to keep in mind. 

 

Just like we are asking if anyone remembers how much the Bills ponied up for Josh Allen or the Chiefs ponied up for Patrick Mahomes in draft equity (and they ended up paying them good QB money too) when they have a chance at the SB every year, the same question will be asked about us if we swung and hit on Lamar. Everyone will forget what we paid for him if things work out and there is a very good chance it will if we take that leap of faith. That is all I am going to say.

I think Ballard and Irsay know what’s at stake here.  They are doing their quarterback evaluations on the rookies and Lamar.  Lamar versus a very weak quarterback class. There is a bigger chance we succeed with Lamar versus the 3rd or 4th rookie drafted.  They are going to realize that if they haven’t done so already.  That’s why they stayed at 4.  The price was not worth it to move up for any one of them.  But Lamar’s sudden availability now offers another opportunity.  Do they take a swing on Lamar or settle for one of the rookies.  That’s the decision they need to make.  I think they know the answer is Lamar.  So now they have to see if they can find a way to get  a deal done with Lamar and the Ravens.  I think they are going to take a swing and see what happens.  They might get rebuffed but I think they are going to take a swing.  

[chad72]

5 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I think Ballard and Irsay know what’s at stake here.  They are doing their quarterback evaluations on the rookies and Lamar.  Lamar versus a very weak quarterback class. There is a bigger chance we succeed with Lamar versus the 3rd or 4th rookie drafted.  They are going to realize that if they haven’t done so already.  That’s why they stayed at 4.  The price was not worth it to move up for any one of them.  But Lamar’s sudden availability now offers another opportunity.  Do they take a swing on Lamar or settle for one of the rookies.  That’s the decision they need to make.  I think they know the answer is Lamar.  So now they have to see if they can find a way to get  a deal done with Lamar and the Ravens.  I think they are going to take a swing and see what happens.  They might get rebuffed but I think they are going to take a swing.  

…and there’s a good chance we never hear about their swing if the Ravens match and sign him.

 

But no doubt when contrasted with the 3rd or 4th QB which way one would lean 

[GoColts8818]

12 minutes ago, chad72 said:

One has to hope the Ravens and Lamar have enough bad bad blood that it will cost us only our No.4 pick and maybe two 2nd rounders given the value of the high pick. But yes, it’s not likely the Ravens give him up that easily. 

The Ravens have made it pretty clear they don’t want to trade him and are pretty much still treating him with kid gloves.  To Lamar’s credit he’s also made it known he would play under the tag if he has too.  So while things are clearly not ideal at the moment it’s a far cry from what’s going on with the Packers and Rodgers.  So there is no real reason to think the Ravens would take less than the two first round picks it would take to sign him under his tag.  In fact it would probably take more if they are even open to listening.  
 

Even if you get past that and let’s just say for the sake of argument the Colts and Ravens could agree on a trade package you still have to get past what his contract would do to the Colts cap space that has it two best skill players come up for free agency and that he wants a guaranteed contract which Irsay said today he doesn’t believe in.  
 

that would take a lot to happen when the Colts can just draft a QB and give up nothing for him and have a much more team friendly contract for five years allowing them to at least retool their roster that needs to be done and probably extend Pittman and Taylor, not to mention guys like Buckner and Grover’s whose contracts are coming up.  
 

If this was the year after Luck retired and they were coming off a playoff run and you knew a franchise QB might just get you over the hump then I think the Colts would be more on board with it.  However, this team isn’t that.  While I don’t think they are the 32nd roster in the NFL like some are labeling them as I do think the roster needs work beyond the QB spot and trading two first round picks at least and pretty much tying up your cap space isn’t going to let them make the moves they need.

[adubb84]

Lamar keeping receipts. Seems HIGHLY motivated with all the negativity coming out. Hopefully he’s motivated to move off a fully guaranteed contract too….if he still wants one. 

[GoColts8818]

Just now, adubb84 said:

Lamar keeping receipts. Seems HIGHLY motivated with all the negativity coming out. Hopefully he’s motivated to move off a fully guaranteed contract too….if he still wants one. 

If he didn’t he would’ve signed an extension with the Ravens and not asked for a trade.

[adubb84]

1 minute ago, GoColts8818 said:

If he didn’t he would’ve signed an extension with the Ravens and not asked for a trade.

True. A man can dream. This whole thing is beyond messy. Fascinating to see how it ends. Don’t see how he goes back to Baltimore with all this shade and external frustration. The price will lower at some point. That or he sits out for the year refusing to play under the tag and missing out on $32 million. Last player to leave a bunch of money on the table and bet on himself was Le’Veon Bell. Know how that worked out 

[GoColts8818]

Just now, adubb84 said:

True. A man can dream. This whole thing is beyond messy. Fascinating to see how it ends. Don’t see how he goes back to Baltimore with all this shade and external frustration. The price will lower at some point. That or he sits out for the year refusing to play under the tag and missing out on $32 million. Last player to leave a bunch of money on the table and bet on himself was Le’Veon Bell. Know how that worked out 

Watson sat out a while year and it’s the contract he got after that has put the Ravens in the bind they are now.

 

Still, Jackson is on the record of saying he will play under the tag.  Maybe the trade request changes that but it seems like the number one thing motivating everything Jackson is doing is money (and there is nothing wrong with that).  I don’t see him leaving that money on the table and sitting out.  I think the Ravens are betting on that too which is why they are still treating him with kid gloves and making it clear they expect him to be their starter.  

[chad72]

If Lamar plays healthy on the tag for 1 year, I’m certain the Ravens have a great shot at winning the SB like Flacco who parlayed his SB to a big contract. 

[adubb84]

1 minute ago, GoColts8818 said:

Watson sat out a while year and it’s the contract he got after that has put the Ravens in the bind they are now.

 

Still, Jackson is on the record of saying he will play under the tag.  Maybe the trade request changes that but it seems like the number one thing motivating everything Jackson is doing is money (and there is nothing wrong with that).  I don’t see him leaving that money on the table and sitting out.  I think the Ravens are betting on that too which is why they are still treating him with kid gloves and making it clear they expect him to be their starter.  

Me and you are aligned. I just don’t see that same (similar) contract being given out however. His playing style is a bit riskier than Watson so folks were willing to dive in. What this IS doing however is slowly creating a division between owners, players, and analysts. Owners refusing to pay, players watching to see how much leverage they have or can get away with, then outsiders confused on how a man with multiple allegations gets more love than a proven commodity. 
 

this screams to me he needs a Agent ASAP to mediate the message and have his requests properly communicated

[GoColts8818]

Just now, adubb84 said:

Me and you are aligned. I just don’t see that same (similar) contract being given out however. His playing style is a bit riskier than Watson so folks were willing to dive in. What this IS doing however is slowly creating a division between owners, players, and analysts. Owners refusing to pay, players watching to see how much leverage they have or can get away with, then outsiders confused on how a man with multiple allegations gets more love than a proven commodity. 
 

this screams to me he needs a Agent ASAP to mediate the message and have his requests properly communicated

He has also done more than Watson so there is that too.  With that said we are splitting hairs because we agree on the bigger picture. That type of contract isn’t getting given out again.  I was just using Watson as an example of a player who bet on himself and got rewarded for it.  
 

Honestly Jackson bet on himself last year and lost because he got hurt and he just doesn’t want to acknowledge that.  The Ravens are going hey we will over look you getting hurt and still give you a record setting contract we just won’t do what the Browns did. 
 

I agree he needs an agent who can be honest with him and go look you aren’t going to get what you want.  This is the best we can do and the longer you hold out the more it will probably go down at some point.

[adubb84]

 

 

My goodness. Emotional tirade tonight…. Balls in your court Lamar. 

[TomDiggs]

I think this is important to note since so many people are harping on the injuries and missed games for Lamar.

 

And i have seen tons of fans (Colts and otherwise) incorrectly say something stupid along the lines of how his rushing and how the way he plays the game lends him to injuries, etc etc

 

I am about 30 mins outside of Baltimore. I see and hear pretty much everything BMore and Philly since I am between the two (yep it sucks lol).

 

I will say this repeatedly until blue in the face:

 

Whether you want Lamar or do not want Lamar that is your prerogative and you are 100% untitled to that sentiment. But to say he is injury prone due to his running style or the nature of his rushing is incorrect. 

 

To put it simply, he has not missed games due to injury as a result of all of his rushing. 

 

Educate yourselves before using that lazy narrative that people tend to throw around willy nilly. 

 

Don't believe me?

 

Here:

 

 

 

Better yet, here are the clips of the injuries suffered that led to 9 of his 12 missed games:

 

 

 

 

Both of these plays are hits that happen while passing the ball and not while rushing or being wreckless.

 

 

If you want to say that Lamar needs protection since he has been hurt twice when his protection broke down and you're worried because the Colts OL has been a trainwreck....cool I will buy that.

 

But soooooo many people are laying it out as if his 150 runs per year are the reason for his missed games and saying he gets hurt because he is a scrambling QB and that is a lazy and incorrect take. 

 

Lamar is actually pretty dang good about not taking unnecessary contact when scrambling and being responsible in that aspect. He has had some tough luck the last two years in terms of injuries that happened on fluke situations in passing plays where protection broke down. 

 

Just food for thought. 

[BProland85]

I would maybe consider moving the 2024 1st for Lamar provided he signs a long term deal that is good for the Colts. I’d have a harder time giving up a top 5 pick for him. 

[ChuggaBeer]

Good post @TomDiggs   Also.   Everyone keeps saying he wants a fully guaranteed contract.  Which is not the case

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10070380-rapoport-lamar-jackson-isnt-seeking-a-fully-guaranteed-contract-amid-trade-rumors

[chad72]

11 minutes ago, adubb84 said:

My goodness. Emotional tirade tonight…. Balls in your court Lamar. 

 

Yep. He’s definitely being affected by all this negativity. Just get an agent Lamar, it’s not worth the stress, IMO.
 

Like a realtor for selling the house instead of being cheap and doing the For Sale By Owner. Lamar’s lane is playing ball, let the ones who have been doing it for a while help you while you get to stay in your lane and bypass the stress. I’m sure agents will work with you.

[GoColts8818]

Just now, chad72 said:

 

Yep. He’s definitely being affected by all this negativity. Just get an agent Lamar, it’s not worth the stress, IMO.
 

Like a realtor for selling the house instead of being cheap and doing the For Sale By Owner. Lamar’s lane is playing ball, let the ones who have been doing it for a while help you while you get to stay in your lane and bypass the stress.

To me it just continues to speak to what Lamar is all about.  Money.  Again there is NOTHING wrong with a pro athlete wanting to maximize how much money they make when they can.  That’s why he doesn’t want an agent he doesn’t want to have to share a portion of his contract with one.  Everything he is doing is about maximizing the amount of money he gets and making sure he gets it (ie he can’t lose it by being released).  Again, nothing wrong with that just an observation on what is driving all this for him.

[chad72]

6 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

To me it just continues to speak to what Lamar is all about.  Money.  Again there is NOTHING wrong with a pro athlete wanting to maximize how much money they make when they can.  That’s why he doesn’t want an agent he doesn’t want to have to share a portion of his contract with one.  Everything he is doing is about maximizing the amount of money he gets and making sure he gets it (ie he can’t lose it by being released).  Again, nothing wrong with that just an observation on what is driving all this for him.

If an agent can (say) score a 6 year $270 million contract with $200 million guaranteed for Lamar, versus him being able to get a 5 year $240 million contract with $180 million guaranteed, wouldn’t the agent be worth it?

He doesn’t see the big picture that it could get him more money with an agent showing the right things to teams to prop up his value, not all of which he might have considered presenting. Agents will kill for even a $5 million piece of the big $250 million pie even if it’s a fixed fee.

[GoColts8818]

2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

If an agent can (say) score a 6 year $270 million contract with $200 million guaranteed for Lamar, versus him being able to get a 5 year $240 million contract with $180 million guaranteed, wouldn’t the agent be worth it?

He doesn’t see the big picture that it could get him more money with an agent showing the right things to teams to prop up his value, not all of which he might have considered presenting.

Oh I agree with you.  You are spot on but I am not the one you have to convince lol.  

[ChuggaBeer]

This is what I have been saying  @Lawrence Owen

 

 

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, chad72 said:

If an agent can (say) score a 6 year $270 million contract with $200 million guaranteed for Lamar, versus him being able to get a 5 year $240 million contract with $180 million guaranteed, wouldn’t the agent be worth it?

He doesn’t see the big picture that it could get him more money with an agent showing the right things to teams to prop up his value, not all of which he might have considered presenting. Agents will kill for even a $5 million piece of the big $250 million pie even if it’s a fixed fee.

I think if Jackson had an agent Baltimore would have resigned him at the start of last season.  

[colts89]

I think that the chances that the trade happens depending on how the Ravens organization views the #4 pick this year. Richardson is also a pretty good candidate to run the very run heavy offense that had previously been running in Baltimore.

[cdgacoltsfan]

8 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Until he isn’t available to play. For some reason fans just want to ignore not finishing the season 2 years in a row. 

Don't worry , If you listen to Irsays words, he put all this LJ crazy talk to rest. No way are the Colts going to persue him.

[Myles]

8 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Until he isn’t available to play. For some reason fans just want to ignore not finishing the season 2 years in a row. 

I think that is the Ravens biggest issue.   To pay all that money guaranteed to a QB who has yet to start every game in a season because of injuries isn't a smart thing to do.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

15 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

Their current head coach did win a Super Bowl without him.

They also had Ray Lewis and a great defense. Flacco was better than anyone they have now if you exclude Lamar. Flacco also had 1 of the best playoff runs ever so your post doesn't say much.

[Solid84]

8 hours ago, TomDiggs said:

I think this is important to note since so many people are harping on the injuries and missed games for Lamar.

 

And i have seen tons of fans (Colts and otherwise) incorrectly say something stupid along the lines of how his rushing and how the way he plays the game lends him to injuries, etc etc

 

I am about 30 mins outside of Baltimore. I see and hear pretty much everything BMore and Philly since I am between the two (yep it sucks lol).

 

I will say this repeatedly until blue in the face:

 

Whether you want Lamar or do not want Lamar that is your prerogative and you are 100% untitled to that sentiment. But to say he is injury prone due to his running style or the nature of his rushing is incorrect. 

 

To put it simply, he has not missed games due to injury as a result of all of his rushing. 

 

Educate yourselves before using that lazy narrative that people tend to throw around willy nilly. 

 

Don't believe me?

 

Here:

 

 

 

Better yet, here are the clips of the injuries suffered that led to 9 of his 12 missed games:

 

 

 

 

Both of these plays are hits that happen while passing the ball and not while rushing or being wreckless.

 

 

If you want to say that Lamar needs protection since he has been hurt twice when his protection broke down and you're worried because the Colts OL has been a trainwreck....cool I will buy that.

 

But soooooo many people are laying it out as if his 150 runs per year are the reason for his missed games and saying he gets hurt because he is a scrambling QB and that is a lazy and incorrect take. 

 

Lamar is actually pretty dang good about not taking unnecessary contact when scrambling and being responsible in that aspect. He has had some tough luck the last two years in terms of injuries that happened on fluke situations in passing plays where protection broke down. 

 

Just food for thought. 

Missing games is a problem and he hasn't played a full season in his career.

 

Mahomes: Has missed 4 regular season games across his career.

Allen: Has missed 4 games his rookie season.

Joe Burrow: Has missed 8 games - 6 of which came his rookie year.

Justin Herbert: Hasn't missed any games.

Lamar Jackson: Has missed 12 games.

 

Best ability is availaility and 12 games missed isn't good enough when you're THE guy on the team. 12 games missed isn't good enough when you take up 20-25% of the cap space. 12 games missed isn't good enough when your main competitors are doing better. It is what it is.

[richard pallo]

8 hours ago, chad72 said:

If Lamar plays healthy on the tag for 1 year, I’m certain the Ravens have a great shot at winning the SB like Flacco who parlayed his SB to a big contract. 

He could change his mind on playing on the tag.  That's his ace in the hole to force a trade.