Jonathan Taylor

[EastStreet]

15 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I agree. What I like is he seems to be getting better and hitting holes better. 

Yup, but I think we all (most at least) knew it would take some time for him to get his timing down in the new blocking scheme. I'm sure things are becoming normalized, and the plays are slowing down for him. It is exciting to see him trend up. IMO his year 2 bounce will be substantial. I would like to see them give him more edge carries though. Hines get's most of those, but Taylor was very very good at those at Wiscy. Those carries take a bit of thinking out of it. Instead of having to read the hole and be patient, it's just hit the gas. 

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

My point is it's not a competition and they both do what is ask of them. 

It can switch from game to game as the opinion of some may think is better. 

Three weeks ago Taylor was either seen as not good enough OR not being utilized to his strengths. 

Knee jerk reactions are pretty common as we both know. 

No argument....

 

But to the point being made by some that Taylor is a better receiver than Hines simply because he has a higher percentage of catches... 29/30....

 

To me,  that would be like arguing in 2018 and 19,  Jordan Wilkins was our best running back simply because his average per carry over a 2 year period was roughly an impressive 1.5 yards per carry more than Marlin Mack.   But no one makes that argument.    Mack is viewed as the better back. 

 

To me....   same with Hines.    The team throws to him far more often because the people who make those decisions think Hines is the better receiver...   the better choice than Taylor.

 

Now,  it may not always be that way.    I think by reputation coming into the year,  Taylor has outperformed expectations as a receiver.    That was not supposed to be a strength of his game coming out of college.   Clearly he's improving.    Som someday he may be better....    I just don't think that day is today,  or this season.

 

[shasta519]

8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

You’re not the first to say this.   Is this honestly your view?   Do you really think Taylor is a better receiver than Hines?   Really?   

I mean he has a higher catch rate, higher yards/catch, higher YAC and DVOA has him higher. He obviously doesn’t have the same volume

stats...but I have no doubt he would provide more yards if he did get similar usage...and I have no doubt he could run a successful wheel route...but we likely won’t see that until after his rookie season.

 

It’s not a knock on Hines...both have been really good this year in that department...I just think Taylor has been better. If I had 12 RB targets to give...I would give Taylor 7.

[shasta519]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Yup, but I think we all (most at least) knew it would take some time for him to get his timing down in the new blocking scheme. I'm sure things are becoming normalized, and the plays are slowing down for him. It is exciting to see him trend up. IMO his year 2 bounce will be substantial. I would like to see them give him more edge carries though. Hines get's most of those, but Taylor was very very good at those at Wiscy. Those carries take a bit of thinking out of it. Instead of having to read the hole and be patient, it's just hit the gas. 

If Taylor got more of the “big play potential” touches...we would be talking about him as a top 10 RB right now. 
 

He also tends to get vultured near the EZ. I don’t have him in any FF league...but it still baffles me. They drafted a powerful RB early in the 2nd round...only to have the TE, backup QB and scat back run it in. It has worked (most of the time)...but it’s still weird.

 

[shasta519]

8 hours ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

Hines is basically a short WR

Not really. We can’t know for sure if he could play WR...but I have my doubts. If he played WR...he wouldn’t get clean releases all the time...or have uncontested catches...or wide open space on dumpoffs. Plus he would likely have a bigger, but just as fast CB covering him...not a S or LB. And he probably gets his head taken off on a crossing route.

 

[NewColtsFan]

37 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

I mean he has a higher catch rate, higher yards/catch, higher YAC and DVOA has him higher. He obviously doesn’t have the same volume

stats...but I have no doubt he would provide more yards if he did get similar usage...and I have no doubt he could run a successful wheel route...but we likely won’t see that until after his rookie season.

 

It’s not a knock on Hines...both have been really good this year in that department...I just think Taylor has been better. If I had 12 RB targets to give...I would give Taylor 7.

 

I appreciate that our views are different....

 

But my point is the people who are making the decisions for the Colts clearly see it differently.   They use Hines more.  And I think there's a reason.    I think he's getting the more difficult receiving assignments.   The more important receiving assignments.   And he has been since he arrived in Indy.   For this year, he's on pace for another 60-something receptions, his 2nd in three years.   And the other is 50-something.    For three years,  he's on pace for roughly 180 catches.   That's a 3-year record that's hard to argue with.

 

3 years vs. 12 games.   I'm happy with what Taylor is doing,  I'm just saying it's not hard to make a strong case for Hines.

[smittywerb]

The crazy thing is he's doing this against stacked boxes.  Just wait until we open up the field.  He's going to eat.

[EastStreet]

2 hours ago, smittywerb said:

The crazy thing is he's doing this against stacked boxes.  Just wait until we open up the field.  He's going to eat.

Yes, in some situations, but overall, not bad. He's does on average go against more guys in the box than Hines, but Wilkins has the highest stacked rate. Here's the breakdown. Hines has a very high "light" box rate. Taylor has a high Base rate. Breakdown below. Added Mack's from last year for comp.

 

Note - Not sure if these include the latest week..

 

Player                      Taylor              Hines             Wilkins     Mack (last year) 

Stacked Rate            18.2%             13.4%            28.9%       17.4%

Base Rate                 48.0% (#7)      23.9%            33.7%       38.5%

Light Rate                33.8%              64.2% (#7)     37.3%       44.1%

 

Stacked = 8 or more defenders in the box

Base = 7

Light = 6 or less

 

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, shasta519 said:

If Taylor got more of the “big play potential” touches...we would be talking about him as a top 10 RB right now. 
 

He also tends to get vultured near the EZ. I don’t have him in any FF league...but it still baffles me. They drafted a powerful RB early in the 2nd round...only to have the TE, backup QB and scat back run it in. It has worked (most of the time)...but it’s still weird.

 

I'd love to see him get more edge runs. He was very good at that in Wisconsin.

And when they run him up the gut in short yardage situations, I'd like to see them spread things out. 

[Stephen]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

No argument....

 

But to the point being made by some that Taylor is a better receiver than Hines simply because he has a higher percentage of catches... 29/30....

 

To me,  that would be like arguing in 2018 and 19,  Jordan Wilkins was our best running back simply because his average per carry over a 2 year period was roughly an impressive 1.5 yards per carry more than Marlin Mack.   But no one makes that argument.    Mack is viewed as the better back. 

 

To me....   same with Hines.    The team throws to him far more often because the people who make those decisions think Hines is the better receiver...   the better choice than Taylor.

 

Now,  it may not always be that way.    I think by reputation coming into the year,  Taylor has outperformed expectations as a receiver.    That was not supposed to be a strength of his game coming out of college.   Clearly he's improving.    Som someday he may be better....    I just don't think that day is today,  or this season.

 

If he was used in the same way he would be. Def capable  of being like Marshall  faulk, alvin kamara, and Christian  McCaffrey  as far as being  good at running  and catching or leveon bell when he was good.

[ColtsLegacy]

4 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I appreciate that our views are different....

 

But my point is the people who are making the decisions for the Colts clearly see it differently.   They use Hines more.  And I think there's a reason.    I think he's getting the more difficult receiving assignments.   The more important receiving assignments.   And he has been since he arrived in Indy.   For this year, he's on pace for another 60-something receptions, his 2nd in three years.   And the other is 50-something.    For three years,  he's on pace for roughly 180 catches.   That's a 3-year record that's hard to argue with.

 

3 years vs. 12 games.   I'm happy with what Taylor is doing,  I'm just saying it's not hard to make a strong case for Hines.

 

It's not worth your time. According to their line of reasoning, JT is a better receiver than Alvin Kamara and CMC since he has a higher catch %. 

 

Apparently taking into account the routes run, targets, and skill sets is not a fair thing to do.

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

It's not worth your time. According to their line of reasoning, JT is a better receiver than Alvin Kamara and CMC since he has a higher catch %. 

 

Apparently taking into account the routes run, targets, and skill sets is not a fair thing to do.

nobody is saying the bolded. 

 

Both Taylor and Hines are top 10 in receiving yards for RBs this year. Also, as I posted, Taylors numbers are tracking better in many ways/areas than Hines for their first years.

[ColtsLegacy]

17 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

nobody is saying the bolded. 

 

Both Taylor and Hines are top 10 in receiving yards for RBs this year. Also, as I posted, Taylors numbers are tracking better in many ways/areas than Hines for their first years.

 

Outside of catch % or inflated yards due to plays like his wide open TD this Sunday, they are not close. JT does not have the agility or suddenness to run the route tree that Hines does. Don't get me wrong, I love how well JT has caught the ball, but catching the ball is one part of being a receiver. Hines is on the CMC, Kamara light level out of the backfield. JT will catch a swing pass or short dumpoff but he is not spreading out and running the route tree that Hines does. No competition and I can't believe this is a conversation.

 

Edit: This is not a knock on JT, but more praise for skillset of Hines. JT looks to be a very reliable receiving back.

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

Outside of catch % or inflated yards due to plays like his wide open TD this Sunday, they are not close. JT does not have the agility or suddenness to run the route tree that Hines does. Don't get me wrong, I love how well JT has caught the ball, but catching the ball is one part of being a receiver. Hines is on the CMC, Kamara light level out of the backfield. JT will catch a swing pass or short dumpoff but he is not spreading out and running the route tree that Hines does. No competition and I can't believe this is a conversation.

Look at it this way if you want. Hines has played all 12 games. Taylor missed 1.5 games, and was played very sparingly early. Taylor had more receiving yards in 5 out of those 10.5 games they both played. I'd also point out that Taylor's targets have increased the last two weeks, and I would expect that trend to continue.

 

I do agree that Hines runs a better tree (right now), but let's not pretend he's running a full tree. And he's been in the league and in the system for 3 years now. This is Taylor's first year, and his numbers are tracking as good or better than Hine's first year. And Taylor didn't get used much catching the ball until his last year, and that was only 26 targets. He was however very good in those 26 targets. And neither back will be asked to run many advanced or down field trees anyway...

 

Here's Hines' latest available chart if you want to take a look at his routes. Please note the line turns green where the catch is made. Most are simple outlet.

 

 

As far as how they came out of college, here's a nugget from Hine's NFL.com draft profile.

Quote

"Hines has dual-threat talent but doesn't have the size for full-time work at running back and is in need of much more work as a receiver."

 

At the end of the day, it's not a competition. Both are top 10 in the league right now in receiving for RBs. Like I said earlier, given Taylor's early success (arguably better than Hines' first 2 year), suggesting that Taylor isn't, or won't be, as good as Hines catching, is more defensive of Hines or lack of awareness, than objective critique. And I'd point out, "yards" and hands are king, not really route trees, when you're talking about a RB catching.

[Coffeedrinker]

This popped up on my phone from the nfl app but I cannot find the report but in NextGen stats has the fastest players each week.  For week 13 Hines and JT were #1 and #2, https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/top-plays/fastest-ball-carriers/2020/REG/13

 

The NFL had JT #1 and Hines #2 with JT hitting 21.99 mph on his 39 yard TD catch.

[shasta519]

3 hours ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

It's not worth your time. According to their line of reasoning, JT is a better receiver than Alvin Kamara and CMC since he has a higher catch %. 

 

Apparently taking into account the routes run, targets, and skill sets is not a fair thing to do.

 

No one said that...but you already knew that. But Taylor is actually #1 in the NFL in receiving back DVOA (Hines is #2)...which measures value per receiving touch...which is the entire argument here.

 

The funny thing is that IF Hines was anywhere near as good (as Taylor has been) in his first two seasons...people would have absolutely made those comps.

 

Taylor not getting targets or running less routes doesn't mean he hasn't been better on a per touch basis. You can throw out catch percentage I guess...but Taylor still has a higher yards/catch...and he's done that with a -1.8 ADOT...because he's been able to get a staggering 11.2 YAC/catch...which is nearly 4 yards higher than Hines. If Taylor was getting those 3rd down dumpoffs with space to run...his numbers are probably even be better. 

 

As for skill sets...Taylor is obviously the more skilled RB...and given his receiving numbers...it's safe to say his overall skill set has extended to receiving. What about Hines makes him more qualified to be a better pass catching RB? It's not their burst or speed...because they measured nearly identical 40 yard dashes and verticals. And it's not agility...because Taylor had much better agility scores...and he did so on a 20 lb heavier frame.

 

Hines is a better route runner...no doubt...but he's also in his 3rd season and played WR in college. Taylor is a rookie out of a program that didn't use him as a pass catcher...he's still learning. But it's not like Hines is running some advanced route tree...his ADOT is 1.2. So what's important is what they can do once they catch the ball...and as a rookie, Taylor has been better per receiving touch.

 

Fans should be ecstatic about how good Taylor has been as a receiving back. To call him serviceable (as I saw earlier)...is goofy.

[shasta519]

4 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Yes, in some situations, but overall, not bad. He's does on average go against more guys in the box than Hines, but Wilkins has the highest stacked rate. Here's the breakdown. Hines has a very high "light" box rate. Taylor has a high Base rate. Breakdown below. Added Mack's from last year for comp.

 

Note - Not sure if these include the latest week..

 

Player                      Taylor              Hines             Wilkins     Mack (last year) 

Stacked Rate            18.2%             13.4%            28.9%       17.4%

Base Rate                 48.0% (#7)      23.9%            33.7%       38.5%

Light Rate                33.8%              64.2% (#7)     37.3%       44.1%

 

Stacked = 8 or more defenders in the box

Base = 7

Light = 6 or less

 

 

Those numbers would partly explain why Wilkins hasn't really been effective as a runner this year. When he's in the game...other teams know it's likely a run...and they likely have a good idea what type of run. In 2019...he rarely faced a stack box...and basically half of his runs came against light fronts.

 

Hines is just...not a very good runner. Good pass catching RB...but not a good runner.

[shasta519]

3 hours ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

Outside of catch % or inflated yards due to plays like his wide open TD this Sunday, they are not close. JT does not have the agility or suddenness to run the route tree that Hines does. Don't get me wrong, I love how well JT has caught the ball, but catching the ball is one part of being a receiver. Hines is on the CMC, Kamara light level out of the backfield. JT will catch a swing pass or short dumpoff but he is not spreading out and running the route tree that Hines does. No competition and I can't believe this is a conversation.

 

Edit: This is not a knock on JT, but more praise for skillset of Hines. JT looks to be a very reliable receiving back.

 

Inflated? Hines has more than his fair share of "inflated" production...like all 3rd down RBs who catch dumpoffs or RBs who play in a negative game script. 

 

If Taylor's big plays are inflating his numbers...then sign me up for more of that. This is why you pass to a RB...because of the big play potential. Explosive plays correlate to more yards, more points and more wins. Give me the player who could take it to the house from 40 yards out.

 

This is a conversation because somebody called the #1 ranked receiving back (per DVOA) a "serviceable" pass catcher. And now you are calling him reliable....which is just another way of not using the word "good." 

 

And while I like Hines just fine...he isn't close to the level of those players...they are prolific with the ball in their hands. The longest play in Hines' career is 29 yards...and that came this year on an open wheel route against some bad S on DET. He doesn't have a single catch over 30 yards in his career to date...Taylor has at least a couple in his first 30 targets. 

 

Hines is much more Theo Riddick than Alvin Kamara. And that's not a bad thing.

 

I won't argue that Hines isn't a better route runner. He should be...he's in his 3rd season...and he's been working on it since he was in college. But the vast majority are still basic routes. But again...route running doesn't matter to this conversation...because despite this advantage...Taylor has been more efficient and effective as a pass catcher this year. 

 

 

[shasta519]

4 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Look at it this way if you want. Hines has played all 12 games. Taylor missed 1.5 games, and was played very sparingly early. Taylor had more receiving yards in 5 out of those 10.5 games they both played. I'd also point out that Taylor's targets have increased the last two weeks, and I would expect that trend to continue.

 

I do agree that Hines runs a better tree (right now), but let's not pretend he's running a full tree. And he's been in the league and in the system for 3 years now. This is Taylor's first year, and his numbers are tracking as good or better than Hine's first year. And Taylor didn't get used much catching the ball until his last year, and that was only 26 targets. He was however very good in those 26 targets. And neither back will be asked to run many advanced or down field trees anyway...

 

Here's Hines' latest available chart if you want to take a look at his routes. Please note the line turns green where the catch is made. Most are simple outlet.

 

 

As far as how they came out of college, here's a nugget from Hine's NFL.com draft profile.

 

At the end of the day, it's not a competition. Both are top 10 in the league right now in receiving for RBs. Like I said earlier, given Taylor's early success (arguably better than Hines' first 2 year), suggesting that Taylor isn't, or won't be, as good as Hines catching, is more defensive of Hines or lack of awareness, than objective critique. And I'd point out, "yards" and hands are king, not really route trees, when you're talking about a RB catching.

 

Great post. I honestly didn't think it was such a controversial take to say Taylor has been better...especially when you look at the stats. And I wasn't trying to create a competition...we all know Hines has been very good. I was just making the comparison to show above and beyond serviceable Taylor has been.

 

I hope the trend for Taylor getting targets will continue. I have no idea how he doesn't get 5-6 per game. Next time Rivers feels like dumping off to Burton...I hope he looks for the RB instead...because they are open A LOT.

 

TBH...this is probably this team's offensive identity...since "RTDB" hasn't really worked. If Taylor had as many targets...they would both be top 3 in receiving yards. So they should just embrace it and heavily use a two-headed pass catching monster. 

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

Great post. I honestly didn't think it was such a controversial take to say Taylor has been better...especially when you look at the stats. And I wasn't trying to create a competition...we all know Hines has been very good. I was just making the comparison to show above and beyond serviceable Taylor has been.

 

I hope the trend for Taylor getting targets will continue. I have no idea how he doesn't get 5-6 per game. Next time Rivers feels like dumping off to Burton...I hope he looks for the RB instead...because they are open A LOT.

 

TBH...this is probably this team's offensive identity...since "RTDB" hasn't really worked. If Taylor had as many targets...they would both be top 3 in receiving yards. So they should just embrace it and heavily use a two-headed pass catching monster. 

I think those that took the mindset that who is better and then want to argue about it are basically just wanting to argue about something. 

[NewColtsFan]

6 hours ago, Stephen said:

If he was used in the same way he would be. Def capable  of being like Marshall  faulk, alvin kamara, and Christian  McCaffrey  as far as being  good at running  and catching or leveon bell when he was good.

That may be your view.  But so far, that’s not the view of the people in charge. 

[Stephen]

5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

That may be your view.  But so far, that’s not the view of the people in charge. 

The people in charge mae questionable  decisions  all the time. Drafting  banagu over aj brown and Metcalf  proof of that. Along with pulling off Taylor after a 10 yard gain and running Hines up the middle. 

 

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

I think those that took the mindset that who is better and then want to argue about it are basically just wanting to argue about something. 

 

To be fair...I have defended my post...that he has been (arguably) better. But it was more in defense of Taylor...not that he needs it. I should have just said "you could make a case for Taylor being the better pass catching RB this year" and that would have been that. 

[shasta519]

1 minute ago, Stephen said:

The people in charge mae questionable  decisions  all the time. Drafting  banagu over aj brown and Metcalf  proof of that. Along with pulling off Taylor after a 10 yard gain and running Hines up the middle. 

 

 

Yeah...NFL HCs are definitely not immune to misusage or weird usage of players...not that they care what we think. And Reich is no different when it comes to Taylor. I need to watch more pressers to see if this ever gets brought up...not that the local media would ask those types of questions.

 

Just look at this past week against HOU. He was the best RB in that game...but only ended up with 16 touches. And TEN of those came in the last 11:00. He was clearly the most effective RB in the 1st half...on his meager FIVE touches (cause they just have to rotate these RBs)...but then only had ONE touch until 11:07 left in the game. 

 

Once they put him back in at 11:07...he basically drives them down the field with 49 rushing yards...but on 4th and 1 from the 5...Reich/Rathman/whoever (being the smartest guy in the room) takes him out for Hines (yet again) and watches it fail (yet again). 

 

Once the Colts got the ball...they go right back to Taylor and he picks up two key 1st downs...and then gets yanked for Wilkins haha.

 

I know that is anecdotal...but it's just part of something that has been going on all season. He has had several TDs vultured...and despite averaging 9 yards/target (not catch...target)...he has only 30 targets on the season. That type of efficiency...and he's like 8th in the pecking order. It's baffling at times. I know Taylor has struggled too...so it's not all on his usage...but I am totally rooting for him.

 

[Stephen]

2 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Great post. I honestly didn't think it was such a controversial take to say Taylor has been better...especially when you look at the stats. And I wasn't trying to create a competition...we all know Hines has been very good. I was just making the comparison to show above and beyond serviceable Taylor has been.

 

I hope the trend for Taylor getting targets will continue. I have no idea how he doesn't get 5-6 per game. Next time Rivers feels like dumping off to Burton...I hope he looks for the RB instead...because they are open A LOT.

 

TBH...this is probably this team's offensive identity...since "RTDB" hasn't really worked. If Taylor had as many targets...they would both be top 3 in receiving yards. So they should just embrace it and heavily use a two-headed pass catching monster. 

Have taylor and hines in the split and throw to the side that's  more wide open

[DownHillRunner]

This is what the draft network said about JT coming out of Wisconsin. 

 

 

"Receiving Consistency: He wasn’t asked to be much of a receiver during his career with the Badgers until his final season. Taylor proved to be comfortable with doing so, but more consistency needs to be shown in that area over the long haul. Extended reps on late or passing downs could be a continued trend. If not, he will limit himself to being strictly a two-down rusher. "

 

 

Averaging 24.6 receiving yards a game and his catch percentage is 96.7%.....These scouts underestimated JT's catch ability. He is a dual threat runner, and Frank is going to have to get him the ball more down the playoff run stretch of the season. 

 

 

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

The people in charge mae questionable  decisions  all the time. Drafting  banagu over aj brown and Metcalf  proof of that. Along with pulling off Taylor after a 10 yard gain and running Hines up the middle. 

 

Saying Ballard made questionable decisions without the benefit of hindsight is pretty lame. 

You seem to think when plays don't work the coaches are flawed. 

How about the 4th and 4 when Frank called a pass to Taylor to the right for a TD? 

Credit or flawed? 

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, DownHillRunner said:

This is what the draft network said about JT coming out of Wisconsin. 

 

 

"Receiving Consistency: He wasn’t asked to be much of a receiver during his career with the Badgers until his final season. Taylor proved to be comfortable with doing so, but more consistency needs to be shown in that area over the long haul. Extended reps on late or passing downs could be a continued trend. If not, he will limit himself to being strictly a two-down rusher. "

 

 

Averaging 26.7 receiving yards a game and his catch percentage is 96.7%.....These scouts underestimated JT's catch ability. He is a dual threat runner, and Frank is going to have to get him the ball more down the playoff run stretch of the season. 

 

 

With Rivers playing out of the shot gun the majority of the time, it's tough to utilize Taylor to his strengths. 

I totally agree Taylor and Hines both need more space for their strengths to be used to max their effectiveness. 

[compuls1v3]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

Have taylor and hines in the split and throw to the side that's  more wide open

This ^^

[Thunderbolt]

Taylor is the man, use him more so we can get more wins.

[a06cc]

I say keep using them the way the coaches feel are necessary. We’ll see more of Taylor soon. 

[EastStreet]

11 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Those numbers would partly explain why Wilkins hasn't really been effective as a runner this year. When he's in the game...other teams know it's likely a run...and they likely have a good idea what type of run. In 2019...he rarely faced a stack box...and basically half of his runs came against light fronts.

 

Hines is just...not a very good runner. Good pass catching RB...but not a good runner.

When he ran last year it was a bit different. Mack was more the bell cow RB last year, and most of Wilkin's snaps were later in the game IIRC. Definitely not the rotation stuff we have this year. Keep in mind, stacked boxes mean blitzes too. We've played some heavy blitz teams this year. I'd also say that last year, teams likely played a lot of base just simply because JB wasn't much a passing threat. The majority of teams play a ton of nickel too, so all the #s can be a bit misleading based on who you're playing.

[EastStreet]

9 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Great post. I honestly didn't think it was such a controversial take to say Taylor has been better...especially when you look at the stats. And I wasn't trying to create a competition...we all know Hines has been very good. I was just making the comparison to show above and beyond serviceable Taylor has been.

I know (you weren't trying to make a comparison), and thanks for the kind words. I think there are still a few JT poo poo'ers out there, and some big Hines fans too that are just resistant to acknowledging that JT has been really good. I love both guys. Every team wants a bell cow back that can catch too, and every team wants a good APB too. Looks like we have both. And that makes me happy happy happy. I was screaming last year, and early this year when we weren't using Hines the right way. It's going to be really nice (assuming JT continues to develop) in the year to come having both these guys, and whoever the QB is, will love it to assuming they are good at hitting RBs in stride and in the seam.

9 hours ago, shasta519 said:

I hope the trend for Taylor getting targets will continue. I have no idea how he doesn't get 5-6 per game. Next time Rivers feels like dumping off to Burton...I hope he looks for the RB instead...because they are open A LOT.

RB targets can vary a lot based on play calls, etc.. Many are just outlet passes when the 1st or 2nd read is covered up. But yes, I hope from a designed perspective, JT continues to factor in more and more to the passing game. It's clear he has a talent in aspect. I'd actually like to see some two back sets, and run either from the slot too. I do appreciate Burton's contribution, but I think JT or Hines from the slot could be blazingly dangerous. I think we could see that as JT continues to gain confidence in the running game.

9 hours ago, shasta519 said:

TBH...this is probably this team's offensive identity...since "RTDB" hasn't really worked. If Taylor had as many targets...they would both be top 3 in receiving yards. So they should just embrace it and heavily use a two-headed pass catching monster. 

YUP! Great problem to have. Per @ColtsLegacy we have two top 5 rated catching RBs. That's an embarrassment of riches. 

[Coltsfan919]

Reading through all these forum post have me thinking... 
 

First off putting it out there I am and will ALWAYS be a Hines fan no matter what. He played for my high school, one of the college teams I support and now the Colts. He is not only an amazing player but and amazing person. I have never seen one day where he is out there cheering and hyping up his fellow players when they score, even if he’s not the one to get the score. He’s a true team player. I am not saying no other player isn’t but it’s just a constant with Hines. He doesn’t have to get all the compliments and praises from everyone because he already knows what talent he has and where his skills are useful. That’s what I love about Hines. Being someone who watched Hines play for years he is known for his speed and his feet. While playing football he also did track so that is where the speed comes from. 
 

On skill set between JT and Hines I choose not to even compare the two because they are so different of players and used for different things. There strengths are different along with what they working on to achieve. If looking at percentages and statistics, basically what is written down on a piece of paper JT is the better RB no doubt, however that doesn’t mean Hines isn’t good at all. He has improved and for once he is actually getting the chance to shine his light and help this team to victories in games. Yes when looking at true RB things they look at rushing so statistically he only has 3 rushing touchdowns but he also has 4 receiving touchdowns (at this point) and JT has his share of TD’s too but more rushing than receiving (4 rush, 1 Rec). 
 

We then look at penalties and all and we say wow a lot of big plays were taken away (many of them on Hines plays, but JT has had some too, even touchdowns for both) and I think that’s a huge struggle that the team needs to overcome and will overtime.

 

JT has nothing to worry about because at the end of the day he’s an amazing RB and what we would consider a “true RB”. He gets all the social media reps and interviews and gets all the praises so he has nothing to worry about. Hines does not get that but he’s determined every week to get better a do his part for the team. Today in Reich’s press conference it was the first time I truly heard great words come out of his mouth about Hines. He said that there are so many different plays and routes that they play him on. He knows in the moment how to switch things up if needed to.  Coach Reich said he is “always gonna get his touches” and has “earned the respect”. Those are just a few words from the conference interview so if you haven’t checked it out I would watch it. Hines is what I would consider the “versatile RB”. The one who can play WR routes and move around and do different plays outside the #1 RB role. Does that mean he’s better than JT, (no not necessarily) but does that mean he’s different, absolutely. 

 

We also have to remember this question: Would JT’s rookie season look this way if Mack was here? Who knows but I think Hines and Taylor’s roles would look different but not limited.  

 

At the end of the day everyone is going to have their opinion on JT v. Hines. But instead of the comparison look at the person, look at what they have overcome to get to this moment and look at their strengths. Don’t shortcut a player to one role (punt returner only (Hines), #1RB down the middle only (Taylor) ). One person’s score doesn’t belong to another person let alone not all scores/plays/touches/routes belong to JT they should be spread because at the end of the day “a team is not only one person”.

[Boondoggle]

It was only a matter of time.  The guy is a stud.

 

Only concern for me is the mileage on him.  He has almost a thousand attempts on that body just from college and over 6k yards.  He's prolific but we'll see how long he can last at this level.  NFL is no joke.  If you can't get skinny as a back you're gonna take a pounding.

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, Boondoggle said:

It was only a matter of time.  The guy is a stud.

 

Only concern for me is the mileage on him.  He has almost a thousand attempts on that body just from college and over 6k yards.  He's prolific but we'll see how long he can last at this level.  NFL is no joke.  If you can't get skinny as a back you're gonna take a pounding.

JT is averaging 13 carries per game. 

[Nickster]

Is JT on the field on a lot of passing downs?  If not, then it might make sense that Hines has a lesser catch % v. nickel and dime packages.

[will426]

It’s not about who’s the better receiver in hines or JT it’s about who’s producing the best making plays as a receiver right now

[Stephen]

23 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Saying Ballard made questionable decisions without the benefit of hindsight is pretty lame. 

You seem to think when plays don't work the coaches are flawed. 

How about the 4th and 4 when Frank called a pass to Taylor to the right for a TD? 

Credit or flawed? 

No didn't  even know who banagou was and most teams probably  still don't  as he's  done nothing.  I'll make a list of players I think will be good before the next draft so noone can call it hindsight. 90 percent  of the forum  knew aj brown and metcalf were good picks. As for the 4th and 4 call even if taylor had dropped  I would have agreed with the call. If they had ran hines or wilkins up the middle  on that play then I wouldn't  have.

[EastStreet]

18 hours ago, Boondoggle said:

It was only a matter of time.  The guy is a stud.

 

Only concern for me is the mileage on him.  He has almost a thousand attempts on that body just from college and over 6k yards.  He's prolific but we'll see how long he can last at this level.  NFL is no joke.  If you can't get skinny as a back you're gonna take a pounding.

Yup. The only real dings on him IIRC in draft grades were mileage, and that he has a long memory (thinks too much after fumbles). 

 

He's been fine protecting the ball, and his use has been very measured. Only 16 combined touches per game. It's probably good his body got a rest this year, but I'd certainly like to see him get more. I said going into the season that he'd be a slow snap ramp, but that was before Mack went down. After Mack went down, I'd thought his ramp would be faster. The last two game he's got like 22 touches per game, so perhaps they are trying to increase things. His success in the passing game is a very nice surprise, and I'm sure that will factor in terms of increased touches.

14 hours ago, Nickster said:

Is JT on the field on a lot of passing downs?  If not, then it might make sense that Hines has a lesser catch % v. nickel and dime packages.

Honestly it's not really like that this year. The rotation has been more of a series rotation. If the series goes long, then they'll rotate, but mostly it seams the backs are in for all downs when they do come in. I'd like to see less rotation in general (series), but better rotation on situation. 

8 hours ago, will426 said:

It’s not about who’s the better receiver in hines or JT it’s about who’s producing the best making plays as a receiver right now

Yup. And both are producing (passing game), which is awesome.

I posted the % (pass or run) in their total touches. JT's % were much less predictable. You really don't know what they're going to do when he's in. It's a lot more predictable when Hines is in.