The rebuild

[Myles]

1 hour ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

 

Championships are the destination.  There's nothing wrong with enjoying the journey, there's also nothing wrong with marking our progress towards the destination.

 

You can simultaneously aim for the Superbowl while celebrating lesser goals.  this is not an either-or proposition. 

 

 

Yes.

It is easier for a fan base to be excited and content when the future holds potential.  The Giants are a good example.   Daniel Jones gives them hope and I suppose they could be excited for how the team can perform.   Brissett doesn't give Colts fans the same opportunity.   Now if the Colts draft a QB, it is different.  

[Four2itus]

2 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

There would be very little content on this forum at all if it wasn't for complaining.

Bull crap. There would be content, perhaps not the content you prefer. 

[Nickster]

4 hours ago, Myles said:

The Pacers are in NBA purgatory.   As a small market team not located in an attractive location, they have a very hard time enticing FA's to come play for them.   

They are well run and put a competitive good team out almost every year, so they don't get high draft picks.  

There last 5 top ten draft picks:

2010 - Paul George (10)

1996 - Eric Dampier (10)

1989 - George McCloud (7)

1988 - Rik Smits (2)

1986 - Chuck Person (4)

 

I would guess that there is not another team in the NBA with only 2 top 10 picks in the last 24 years.  Tough to build a championship team without those picks.  

 

 

Yeah.  They've been too good for the good of the org.  

[indyagent17]

All this talk about a great quarterback. You have to understand that Burrow and Tua will be gone long before 13 so that leaves you with Love, Herbert or Eason. It's hard to believe that they would have a grade high enough to go at 13. So that's where the Colts are. Reach for a quarterback or take one in the second round

[MTC]

9 minutes ago, indyagent17 said:

All this talk about a great quarterback. You have to understand that Burrow and Tua will be gone long before 13 so that leaves you with Love, Herbert or Eason. It's hard to believe that they would have a grade high enough to go at 13. So that's where the Colts are. Reach for a quarterback or take one in the second round

 

Honestly, I'd look to sign Rivers for a year rather than draft Love, Herbert, or Eason because none of their film impressed me. 

 

Regardless, Ballard will add another starting-caliber QB, whether through FA or the draft. 

[Imgrandojji]

19 hours ago, Four2itus said:

Bull crap. There would be content, perhaps not the content you prefer. 

Most of the really good content on this forum happens when knowledgeable people put whiners in their place.

 

I stand by my statement.

[Imgrandojji]

20 hours ago, Myles said:

Yes.

It is easier for a fan base to be excited and content when the future holds potential.  The Giants are a good example.   Daniel Jones gives them hope and I suppose they could be excited for how the team can perform.   Brissett doesn't give Colts fans the same opportunity.   Now if the Colts draft a QB, it is different.  

I know quarterbacks are critical, but the cult of the quarterback annoys me  Drew Brees had enough losing years to make it clear there's a lot more to being a successful franchise than dreaming on the QB.  

 

IMHO dreaming on QBs is what losing franchises do to feel better about bad years.  The good franchises know that  a good QB is the keystone of an arch -- in a well designed system, crucial.  Without all the other pieces, pointless.

 

No keystone can hold up an arch if the other stones of the archway are crumbling, poorly crafted or generally inferior.

 

At the same time, no matter how well the rest of the arch is built, an inferior keystone can ruin the whole thing, but you still need all the other pieces in place before having a good keystone even matters.

[Imgrandojji]

21 hours ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

Everyone keeps going on about the 49'ers and how they have built their team. Where were these people last year when the 49'ers were 4-12 and had the 2nd pick in the draft? You weren't wanting to be like San Francisco then. Why was San Fran 4-12 last year? Because they lost their starting QB! This year we went 7-9 and we lost our 1 week before the season started. So maybe things aren't quite as bad as people are making it out to be! 

I definitely agree with that last, but I will say that I'm still convinced that Jacoby Brissett is better than the fans here let on.  The guy was held back to at least some extent in the second half by a wave of injuries to key receivers. 

 

We went into several games with Zach Pascal as our WR1.  I like pascal as a WR4, but he can't get separation against elite defensive backs.  That contributed directly to some of Brissett's worst habits, including holding the ball too long.  If you can't develop trust with your receivers that's a trap that's all too easy to fall into.  And if you start every game with replacement receivers, it's really, really hard to build trust.

 

I saw what Brissett could do when he had a healthy receiving unit in the first half, and it was pretty good.  Let's not forget that before the wheels fell off we were 6-2 at the half and Brissett was among the league leaders in touchdowns.  That went away when our receivers went away, which should come as a surprise to exactly no one.

 

  Bottom line, we are WAY better than our 2019 record suggests we are.

[Myles]

18 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

I definitely agree with that last, but I will say that I'm still convinced that Jacoby Brissett is better than the fans here let on.  The guy was held back to at least some extent in the second half by a wave of injuries to key receivers. 

 

We went into several games with Zach Pascal as our WR1.  I like pascal as a WR4, but he can't get separation against elite defensive backs.  That contributed directly to some of Brissett's worst habits, including holding the ball too long.  If you can't develop trust with your receivers that's a trap that's all too easy to fall into.  And if you start every game with replacement receivers, it's really, really hard to build trust.

 

I saw what Brissett could do when he had a healthy receiving unit in the first half, and it was pretty good.  Let's not forget that before the wheels fell off we were 6-2 at the half and Brissett was among the league leaders in touchdowns.  That went away when our receivers went away, which should come as a surprise to exactly no one.

 

  Bottom line, we are WAY better than our 2019 record suggests we are.

We were 5-3.

I've only come to my conclusion because he hasn't improved.  His flaws are the same as in college.  

From his draft profile:

Struggles with deep ball accuracy completing just 23.1 percent on attempts of 21-plus yards. Had several overthrows when tasked with deep throws down sideline versus man coverage. Failed to recognize receivers running wide open down the seam. Gets locked in on a pre­-snap plan and has issues altering his itinerary quickly.

 

If he starts I will be pulling for him, but I have no confidence in him improving at age 27 going into year 5 in the NFL.  

[Four2itus]

1 hour ago, Imgrandojji said:

Most of the really good content on this forum happens when knowledgeable people put whiners in their place.

 

I stand by my statement.

I took your comment wrong, sorry. 

[Imgrandojji]

2 hours ago, Myles said:

We were 5-3.

I've only come to my conclusion because he hasn't improved.  His flaws are the same as in college.  

From his draft profile:

Struggles with deep ball accuracy completing just 23.1 percent on attempts of 21-plus yards. Had several overthrows when tasked with deep throws down sideline versus man coverage. Failed to recognize receivers running wide open down the seam. Gets locked in on a pre­-snap plan and has issues altering his itinerary quickly.

 

If he starts I will be pulling for him, but I have no confidence in him improving at age 27 going into year 5 in the NFL.  

Mm.  Thing is, 'improvement' doesn't necessarily mean "becomes insanely good at this thing."  In Brissett's case, and many other second tier QBs, improvement happens when you find a scheme that's a fit for what he can do and minimizes the issues he struggles with.

 

The problem with that comes when a player has a fatal flaw.  Something that will seriously hold you back no matter what scheme you're in. 

 

The good news is that you can probably scheme around a QB who holds onto the ball too long, especially if you can isolate and mitigate the cause.  It's an issue, but not a fatal one.  Brissett could, in theory, be worked with.  Not to magically make him accurate at long range or turn him into Drew Brees, but at least get him to the point where even with these issues, we can advance the ball downfield.

 

This compared to Jameis Winston, whose fatal flaw is the inability to read a defense and whose instinct is to throw and hope rather than read and respond.  That's how I see his issues lying, and I wouldn't touch that guy with a 10 foot pole because it speaks to a player who is stubborn, headstrong and not nearly as intelligent as he thinks he is.

 

I've said this before in this thread but I'd rather have a quarterback whose biggest flaw is he tries too hard to avoid turnovers, than have to coach a QB at the highest professional level how to think a pass when it's clear he'd been coasting on talent and never learned.  You can coach an overcautious QB, or find him WRs he can synergize with.  An overaggressive QB is much harder to train, especially if they had great success at lower levels.

[Douzer]

Reading this thread put me in mind of these 2 things:

1.) Tom Brady could not throw a deep route accurately for his first 3 seasons in the league. He absolutely sucked at it. Up the sideline, down the seam, it didn't matter, he missed no matter how open they were, or how clean a pocket he had. He missed 95% of the deep passes he threw - badly. Some people have forget that, I'm not one of them.

2.) The QB with the lowest average pass completion yardage (6.9 yards per completion) will be playing in the Super Bowl Feb 2nd. Everyone, including me, loves the deep ball, but the 49'ers have shown that you can absolutely dominate in this league with the short passing game. They have a showcase full of Lombardi Trophies to prove it too.

 

Just food for thought...

[ojsglove]

45 minutes ago, Douzer said:

Reading this thread put me in mind of these 2 things:

1.) Tom Brady could not throw a deep route accurately for his first 3 seasons in the league. He absolutely sucked at it. Up the sideline, down the seam, it didn't matter, he missed no matter how open they were, or how clean a pocket he had. He missed 95% of the deep passes he threw - badly. Some people have forget that, I'm not one of them.

2.) The QB with the lowest average pass completion yardage (6.9 yards per completion) will be playing in the Super Bowl Feb 2nd. Everyone, including me, loves the deep ball, but the 49'ers have shown that you can absolutely dominate in this league with the short passing game. They have a showcase full of Lombardi Trophies to prove it too.

 

Just food for thought...

  

The showcase of trophies for the Pat's started after Brady's improvement after 3 seasons in the league. The showcase of trophies for the 9er's came well before JG.  The 49er's have an all around good team comprised of good draft pick's and FA signings, combined with a QB who has the ability to accurately throw the ball, be it screen pass or down the field.  If you add all of this up with great coaching, it's easy to see why they are playing in the big game and we are sitting at home watching.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

I heard during one of the games that the Texans have won the South 4 out of 5 last seasons. And I know the Jags won it the other year. That's 5 conseqitve season without a Division title and only last year's wildcard playoff appearance! And seriously doubt we're winning it in 2020 or anytime soon, especially with Brisset or whoever Ballard gets to play QB.

The run on us having Franchisee QB's (Unitas,Jones,Manning, Luck) are probably over....at least for awhile. Which will probably put us in REBUILD for the unseeable future.

[Mel Kiper's Hair]

6 hours ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

I heard during one of the games that the Texans have won the South 4 out of 5 last seasons. And I know the Jags won it the other year. That's 5 conseqitve season without a Division title and only last year's wildcard playoff appearance! And seriously doubt we're winning it in 2020 or anytime soon, especially with Brisset or whoever Ballard gets to play QB.

The run on us having Franchisee QB's (Unitas,Jones,Manning, Luck) are probably over....at least for awhile. Which will probably put us in REBUILD for the unseeable future.

 

Doom and gloom much? If our kicking game is what it should have been then we are 9-7 at worst and in the playoffs. It is easy to say this team isn't that good, but honestly we aren't that bad. We are right in the hunt for the AFC South and that is WITH JB at QB. We also got the good news that Bill O'Brien is now the GM of the Texans too. If is is as skilled at GM as he is at coaching then we are set atop the South for the foreseeable future. 

[Myles]

7 hours ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

I heard during one of the games that the Texans have won the South 4 out of 5 last seasons. And I know the Jags won it the other year. That's 5 conseqitve season without a Division title and only last year's wildcard playoff appearance! And seriously doubt we're winning it in 2020 or anytime soon, especially with Brisset or whoever Ballard gets to play QB.

The run on us having Franchisee QB's (Unitas,Jones,Manning, Luck) are probably over....at least for awhile. Which will probably put us in REBUILD for the unseeable future.

 

1 hour ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

Doom and gloom much? If our kicking game is what it should have been then we are 9-7 at worst and in the playoffs. It is easy to say this team isn't that good, but honestly we aren't that bad. We are right in the hunt for the AFC South and that is WITH JB at QB. We also got the good news that Bill O'Brien is now the GM of the Texans too. If is is as skilled at GM as he is at coaching then we are set atop the South for the foreseeable future. 

I think you are both too far on each side of this.  

Th current Colts team is not bad.  Youth all over, so improvement should come.  Top 3 O-line which should give us both a good running game and a good passing game once Brissett is replaced.  

[Mel Kiper's Hair]

25 minutes ago, Myles said:

 

I think you are both too far on each side of this.  

Th current Colts team is not bad.  Youth all over, so improvement should come.  Top 3 O-line which should give us both a good running game and a good passing game once Brissett is replaced.  

 

Not sure how I see how I am too far on this. I didn't say we would be 16-0 and in the Super Bowl. If our kicking game would have been where it has typically been, then we would have been at least 9-7 and in the playoffs. We aren't a bad team and we aren't an elite team, but we would have been a playoff team.

[Myles]

1 hour ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

Not sure how I see how I am too far on this. I didn't say we would be 16-0 and in the Super Bowl. If our kicking game would have been where it has typically been, then we would have been at least 9-7 and in the playoffs. We aren't a bad team and we aren't an elite team, but we would have been a playoff team.

I was more referring to the comment about the Colts being sitting on top of the division for the foreseeable future.  Granted, you were referring to O'Brien being the GM.  

 

 

[AwesomeAustin]

The Colts will begin their rebuild when they decide who the franchise QB will be.  The team will need tailored to that persons strengths and weaknesses.  The Colts were on their way with Luck and nearly completed.  That has changed and the front office had a lot to decide on the next couple years.  I personally don’t see the Colts making the playoffs more than 50% of the time this next decade which is a total shame bc we were expecting super bowls.  This is not a bottom feeder roster and will win enough games we will be just like the pacers and always competing for the playoffs but not a real contender for championships.  It’s ok, it’s hard to win it all and won’t change me watching them every chance I can. 

[Myles]

On 1/23/2020 at 12:12 PM, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

Everyone keeps going on about the 49'ers and how they have built their team. Where were these people last year when the 49'ers were 4-12 and had the 2nd pick in the draft? You weren't wanting to be like San Francisco then. Why was San Fran 4-12 last year? Because they lost their starting QB! This year we went 7-9 and we lost our 1 week before the season started. So maybe things aren't quite as bad as people are making it out to be! 

Even with Brissett as the QB, we are not going to have a a top 10 pick for 4 years in a row.  

[EastStreet]

Purely my opinion, but we're only 2 key pieces away from being right back in the conversation for AFC champion..... That's a 3T that would make our D look much better all around, especially the DBs. In addition, a QB who raises the level of play instead of regresses it. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Purely my opinion, but we're only 2 key pieces away from being right back in the conversation for AFC champion..... That's a 3T that would make our D look much better all around, especially the DBs. In addition, a QB who raises the level of play instead of regresses it. 

I think we are 3 pieces away. I agree 3T and an upgrade at QB, but I also think we need a consistent playmaker at WR. TY is getting older.

[EastStreet]

24 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think we are 3 pieces away. I agree 3T and an upgrade at QB, but I also think we need a consistent playmaker at WR. TY is getting older.

 

Purely my opinion, but 3T and QB are by far the most important things. Several levels over everything else.

 

While I would definitely look at FA WRs, and WRs in the middle and late rounds, I also know that our lack of passing yardage was due mostly to JB's deficiencies and injury, not really lack of talent. A starting "healthy" line up of TY, Funch, Campbell, Hines (as the APB), and Doyle would be very formidable with an improved QB.  

 

This will be an important year for TY. He was out 2.5 games, and playing hobbled 4 other games in 2018. Still, our passing game was top 10. In 2019 he was out 6, and hobbled in others. When he was healthy, he was fast and good, so it's not really a question of him losing a step (yet). It's simply a question of his body. It will be interesting to see what how the FO looks at this. Were these injuries they see recurring over and over again, or things that were freak and unrelated. Bottom line, he's in the last year of his contract, so the pressure is on for him to stay on the field.

 

Not sure how Funch will factor either. If it were up to me, I'd let Funch go unless he's willing to be very friendly with a contract, and draft Claypool mid/late. IMO, Claypool has the same body, but is faster and has much better hands. 

 

Who knows on Campbell, but it's silly to forget about him because of several unrelated and freak injuries. When he was playing, he looked pretty good even though JB had issues with throwing to the seam (slot sweet spot). He actually had his best game (5 for 5) with Hoyer. My opinion on him is still unchanged (he'll be dangerous with a quick trigger QB leading him in space).

 

The rest... we have two guys that did well for Luck in 2018 (Pascal, Rogers), with one looking good also with JB at times (Pascal). We also have Fountain coming back and competing. I also think both Johnson and Dulin have the ceiling to surprise after getting a year under their belts. And the biggest thing, they have to get the ball in Hine's hands in space. 

 

So do I think we need to shop WRs, absolutely. I also know it's not nearly as bad as some think. And I really doubt we're going to see injury luck run so bad two years in a row on our assumed 3 best WRs (TY, Funch, Campbell).

 

Bold prediction. TY is much healthier in 2020, Funch is re-signed and more or less takes Ebron's place (as the detached TE) coming out of the slot (like a TE runs), Campbell is healthy all year, Fountain comes back and continues to impress, and we draft a WR or two in the middle and late rounds (or take via FA). On top of that, we draft a QB that has an accurate and quick trigger, and people start to really like Reich's passing O...

 

 

[superrep1967]

On 1/21/2020 at 9:58 AM, Myles said:

If Luck would have stayed and we made it to the AFC Championship game, would the team still be considered in rebuilding mode?  

I think the "rebuilding" was meant more to have depth, which wasn't there on Grigsons roster.  I think we have depth at most positions now.  The roster is pretty solid.  Rebuilding usually doesn't mean top 5 players at each position.  QB is the biggest step left to rebuild.  

I agree for the most part.