Report: Irsay spent 10 hours with Gruden in Texas.

[VocableLoki]

17 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Basically correct. Sad thing is he's an average coach with Luck. Without him, he's a slightly better Gus Bradley. Don't even mind the regression at this point as much as the terrible defense. At least the regression was due to bad drafting, the terrible defense is due to a lack of development. If it was up to me, there would be a complete overhaul of both GM and coach. There is still hope, but it's almost ran out. 

You're right, the terrible defense has nothing to do with awful acquisitions and essentially hoping that a constant stream of underwhelming veterans will make up a good roster, it's just development. 

[Yoshinator]

1 minute ago, VocableLoki said:

You're right, the terrible defense has nothing to do with awful acquisitions and essentially hoping that a constant stream of underwhelming veterans will make up a good roster, it's just development. 

Ah yes, the Pagano apologist. The newbie on here who has backed up every move he's done. The funny thing is if Pagano got fired today, you'd probably latch on to the new coach the same way. If you want me to play your game, Pagano hasn't made any defensive player better. Unless you want to count edwin jackson. We have no stars on defense, none of our defensive draft picks have turned into stars. We had a historically bad defense last year AFTER two years of drafting defense. That's on Pagano. The player Pagano wanted at Safety, TJ Green, was rated last at his position. That's on Pagano. I forgot though, he gets a pass from you because he beat cancer. Grow up. Doesn't mean he's immune from having to do his job.

[Yoshinator]

11 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

I tend to agree that if nothing were going on, irsay would come out and speak up about keeping the current regime. The more time goes on, the more likely we are keeping with the status quo. 

 

I heard somewhere that peyton isn't ready to come back to the NFL yet. But I wouldn't be surprised if he's in talks with both gruden and manning, trying to create a sort of future contract. When Peyton is ready (the next 1-2 years?) then the axe will be dropped and both peyton and gruden will be in the building before you can say bobs your uncle. If this is the case, I can see why we wouldn't fire our staff right now. Especially if it's in the next 2 years. Why fire, then hire, then fire, and hire again? I can see why we would wait at this point. 

 

It it would also explain him being in Texas talking to gruden for 10 hours. If that's even true. 

 

I have said this this before and I'll say it again, I have lost faith in any credibility of any story, whether that's keeping the staff or going a different route. Until irsay says something, it is pointless to speculate. 

 

But the longer we wait, it's more than likely that we are keeping the status quo. 

 

At what point has it been too long into the offseason to make changes in the front office...?

Honestly, it probably is what it is. Gruden or bust. We don't know the details, but the longer it takes, the less likely it is to happen. Shame for this fanbase, and more importantly, a shame for Andrew Luck, who doesn't deserve to get put through this crap. He needs to speak up, but he won't do so. We're 3 years away, and that's if everything goes right. Next year may be more regression before it gets better if Pagano stays.

[VocableLoki]

1 minute ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Ah yes, the Pagano apologist. The newbie on here who has backed up every move he's done. The funny thing is if Pagano got fired today, you'd probably latch on to the new coach the same way. If you want me to play your game, Pagano hasn't made any defensive player better. Unless you want to count edwin jackson. We have no stars on defense, none of our defensive draft picks have turned into stars. We had a historically bad defense last year AFTER two years of drafting defense. That's on Pagano. The player Pagano wanted at Safety, TJ Green, was rated last at his position. That's on Pagano. I forgot though, he gets a pass from you because he beat cancer. Grow up. Doesn't mean he's immune from having to do his job.

It's funny that simply not thrashing a guy makes you an apologist. No, Pagano hasn't made any players significantly better, though several secondary guys (Davis, Butler, Adams) have had great success with him, but how can you possibly argue that it is just on development that our defense isn't better? It is, without question, both on him and the FO. Look at the players we have acquired through FA and the draft, it was a flimsy "win-now"philosophy that collapsed before it even started. To argue that it is simply due to development is silly.

 

Also, which two years did we draft defensively? 

[aReggie7]

7 minutes ago, VocableLoki said:

You're right, the terrible defense has nothing to do with awful acquisitions and essentially hoping that a constant stream of underwhelming veterans will make up a good roster, it's just development. 

 

 

Pagano likely deserves some of the blame for those acquisitions too. It's certainly fair to say that the Colts haven't done enough to put together a good defense over the last 5 years but it's also reasonable to assume that Pagano has had a say in which defensive players this team did bring in. While Grigson and Pagano may have had their differences I don't think that Chuck has had zero say in which players are signed/drafted especially on the defensive side.

[Gramz]

* Bob''s your uncle.

 

 

Did it work...????

[VocableLoki]

Just now, ar7 said:

 

Pagano likely deserves some of the blame for those acquisitions too. It's certainly fair to say that the Colts haven't done enough to put together a good defense over the last 5 years but it's also reasonable to assume that Pagano has had a say in which defensive players this team did bring in. While Grigson and Pagano may have had their differences I don't think that Chuck has had zero say in which players are signed/drafted especially on the defensive side.

I would agree with this, in my first post I argued that poor acquisitions are the main reason we aren't developing on defense. It's hard to develop players when a majority of them are veterans who only have 1-2 productive years left.

[Yoshinator]

Just now, VocableLoki said:

It's funny that simply not thrashing a guy makes you an apologist. No, Pagano hasn't made any players significantly better, though several secondary guys (Davis, Butler, Adams) have had great success with him, but how can you possibly argue that it is just on development that our defense isn't better? It is, without question, both on him and the FO. Look at the players we have acquired through FA and the draft, it was a flimsy "win-now"philosophy that collapsed before it even started. To argue that it is simply due to development is silly.

 

Also, which two years did we draft defensively? 

2015 and 2016. Also, Vontae's problem was mental, not physical. Pagano was able to make him better by talking to him and working through his mental issues. After that, he played to his ability. Butler is a decent nickel corner, nothing more. Adams is solid, though I want to hear an argument that Pagano made him better. None of our defensive rookies under Pagano have turned into feared players. In fact, the 2015 class has regressed mostly, and the 2016 players are average. Grigson isn't the best drafter, but he did well enough on the offensive side to make me think that Pagano is the problem when developing defensive players.

[csmopar]

21 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

I tend to agree that if nothing were going on, irsay would come out and speak up about keeping the current regime. The more time goes on, the more likely we are keeping with the status quo. 

 

I heard somewhere that peyton isn't ready to come back to the NFL yet. But I wouldn't be surprised if he's in talks with both gruden and manning, trying to create a sort of future contract. When Peyton is ready (the next 1-2 years?) then the axe will be dropped and both peyton and gruden will be in the building before you can say bobs your uncle. If this is the case, I can see why we wouldn't fire our staff right now. Especially if it's in the next 2 years. Why fire, then hire, then fire, and hire again? I can see why we would wait at this point. 

 

It it would also explain him being in Texas talking to gruden for 10 hours. If that's even true. 

 

I have said this this before and I'll say it again, I have lost faith in any credibility of any story, whether that's keeping the staff or going a different route. Until irsay says something, it is pointless to speculate. 

 

But the longer we wait, it's more than likely that we are keeping the status quo. 

 

At what point has it been too long into the offseason to make changes in the front office...?

not until February really, but honestly, I'd say you'd want them in by the end of january  so they can start looking at who to keep and who to say bye bye too

[NannyMcafee]

6 minutes ago, Gramz said:

* Bob''s your uncle.

 

 

Did it work...????

 

I checked.... I was wrong... 

[Gramz]

1 minute ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

I checked.... I was wrong... 

Can't blame a gal for trying. 

[VocableLoki]

1 minute ago, Jared Cisneros said:

2015 and 2016. Also, Vontae's problem was mental, not physical. Pagano was able to make him better by talking to him and working through his mental issues. After that, he played to his ability. Butler is a decent nickel corner, nothing more. Adams is solid, though I want to hear an argument that Pagano made him better. None of our defensive rookies under Pagano have turned into feared players. In fact, the 2015 class has regressed mostly, and the 2016 players are average. Grigson isn't the best drafter, but he did well enough on the offensive side to make me think that Pagano is the problem when developing defensive players.

2016 was a defensive draft? How? Way more offensive line focused. We took one defender before round 4 (Green) and he was supposed to be a project player. Also seems flimsy to argue that players drafted in the last two years aren't developing fast enough. Our last two drafts were the only ones defensively focused, that seems to be a big problem in developing young talent. 

 

Again, this is the problem with the Pagano criticism: anything he has done well is immediately chalked up to him being lucky or simply riding someone else's success. 

 

Davis turned into a top-caliber corner here. No way that is all mental. Adams went from a journeyman into having back-to-back 5 interception seasons and grading out as a good coverage safety. Same goes for Butler: cut and on his way out of the NFL and here he is a very good nickel corner and even developed into a respectable safety this year. No one will argue that Pagano has developed/found great defensive talent consistently but some secondary players have developed very well. 

 

My point is that it is a organizational philosophy that needs changed. Just bringing in a new coach won't help if we have the same attitude for bringing players in.

 

 

[Defjamz26]

10 minutes ago, csmopar said:

not until February really, but honestly, I'd say you'd want them in by the end of january  so they can start looking at who to keep and who to say bye bye too

I'd say before the combine. You want guys there to start looking at talent. Plus it's before FA starts so there's plenty of time for evaluation. I think we'll hear something before the end of this month though, if not this week.

[lollygagger8]

1 hour ago, Jared Cisneros said:

We all are at this point. I'd take some members of the forum over who we have now as coach.

[BullsColtsFan1]

1 hour ago, Coltfreak said:

Curious where Irsay has actually said this 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2017/01/06/reports-colts-bring-back-chuck-pagano-2017/96237132/

[BullsColtsFan1]

1 hour ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Me either, I've basically given up hope on next season already. Going to see what we do in FA and the draft now just to see if the season is worth watching. Irsay's ego is going to cost him here, and I don't mean by me not watching.

I haven't completely given up on next season yet.  Pending the draft and free agency, I am still holding out hope lol.  I get what you're saying though.

[Dilger85]

3 minutes ago, BullsColtsFan1 said:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2017/01/06/reports-colts-bring-back-chuck-pagano-2017/96237132/

The only quotes in this article from Irsay are from a year ago.  "Sources" stated that Irsay gave assurances to Pagano but Irsay hasn't said anything yet.

[BullsColtsFan1]

3 minutes ago, Dilger85 said:

The only quotes in this article from Irsay are from a year ago.  "Sources" stated that Irsay gave assurances to Pagano but Irsay hasn't said anything yet.

Usually Adam Schefter is pretty reliable and his quote on that article said Colts assure Pagano he'll be back in 2017. Maybe it wasn't Irsay, but I assumed it was.  Maybe all of these Pagano being assured to return in 2017 reports are bogus. 

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, Dilger85 said:

The only quotes in this article from Irsay are from a year ago.  "Sources" stated that Irsay gave assurances to Pagano but Irsay hasn't said anything yet.

He's not required to say anything to the public about this.

[Dilger85]

11 minutes ago, DougDew said:

He's not required to say anything to the public about this.

You are right he is not but many other owners in very similar positions have so that leads to speculation and rumor which Irsay could end simply by stated in a release that Pagano is his coach.  Doesn't have to do that but it would crush the rumors and since he hasn't done that speculation runs wild.  It might not mean anything but it allows one to wonder.

[Dilger85]

15 minutes ago, BullsColtsFan1 said:

Usually Adam Schefter is pretty reliable and his quote on that article said Colts assure Pagano he'll be back in 2017. Maybe it wasn't Irsay, but I assumed it was.  Maybe all of these Pagano being assured to return in 2017 reports are bogus. 

Could be bogus but could be true, but I will take anything that anyone says at this time with a grain of salt.  When or if Irsay states that Pagano and Grigson are both coming back next year then the speculation will end, which is why him not taking the rumors head on is allowing for more speculation.

[csmopar]

16 minutes ago, DougDew said:

He's not required to say anything to the public about this.

No but one thing Irsay is, is media-savy, he wouldn't let the media spin this stuff and distract the team unless there were some truth to the rumors that he is looking at options

[BullsColtsFan1]

3 minutes ago, csmopar said:

No but one thing Irsay is, is media-savy, he wouldn't let the media spin this stuff and distract the team unless there were some truth to the rumors that he is looking at options

I sure hope so but I am not getting my hopes up.  I am pretty confident Chuck Pagano and Ryan Grigson will still be around in September. 

[CheezyColt]

I love the "he could make it stop with a simple announcement" thought process. It's like one kid saying another kid could have the next turn on his own video game, but the other kid puts him in a headlock and won't let go until the first kid says it is now his turn.

 

"The first kid could get out of the headlock if he would just say it's the other kid's turn!"

[csmopar]

26 minutes ago, BullsColtsFan1 said:

I sure hope so but I am not getting my hopes up.  I am pretty confident Chuck Pagano and Ryan Grigson will still be around in September. 

i'm with ya, just saying i'm not ready to abandon all hope yet

[Defjamz26]

32 minutes ago, Dilger85 said:

Could be bogus but could be true, but I will take anything that anyone says at this time with a grain of salt.  When or if Irsay states that Pagano and Grigson are both coming back next year then the speculation will end, which is why him not taking the rumors head on is allowing for more speculation.

Yeah. There's really no logical reason why he wouldn't have just come out and said they're staying by now. Even a simple tweet with no explanation would have sufficed. 

[Fisticuffs111]

11 minutes ago, CheezyColt said:

I love the "he could make it stop with a simple announcement" thought process. It's like one kid saying another kid could have the next turn on his own video game, but the other kid puts him in a headlock and won't let go until the first kid says it is now his turn.

 

"The first kid could get out of the headlock if he would just say it's the other kid's turn!"

Is it really any worse than the "let's just keep the constant and chaotic speculation going because he doesn't techincally have to announce anything" thought process?

But seriously, both sides have a point.

[Dilger85]

9 minutes ago, CheezyColt said:

I love the "he could make it stop with a simple announcement" thought process. It's like one kid saying another kid could have the next turn on his own video game, but the other kid puts him in a headlock and won't let go until the first kid says it is now his turn.

 

"The first kid could get out of the headlock if he would just say it's the other kid's turn!"

This analogy makes no sense.  In this situation who is in the headlock and whose turn is it? Really not following the point you are trying to make.

[jvan1973]

Phillip Wilsons take on the Irsay silence

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.all22.com/indianapolis-colts/indianapolis-colts-owner-jim-irsay-stayed-silent/amp

[Fisticuffs111]

8 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Phillip Wilsons take on the Irsay silence

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.all22.com/indianapolis-colts/indianapolis-colts-owner-jim-irsay-stayed-silent/amp

I disagree with him that he thinks making an announcement would mean Jim is admitting their jobs were in question. He can even address that, "Amid the rising speculation I want to publicly put support behind my coach and GM. I'm only stating this to hopefully put an end to the rumors, blah, blah blah"

I know somebody will give me the "he already did it" deal, and that's true, but there are too many instances of an owner giving votes of confidence before the regular season is over only to fire them after.

But I do think he's right. I don't see an announcement coming.

[Yoshinator]

4 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Phillip Wilsons take on the Irsay silence

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.all22.com/indianapolis-colts/indianapolis-colts-owner-jim-irsay-stayed-silent/amp

Thanks alot Jvan. First you make me have this ridiculous avatar, then you crush my hopes and dreams. I was just starting to like you, now you're really pushing it mister!

[Jackie Daytona]

7 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Phillip Wilsons take on the Irsay silence

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.all22.com/indianapolis-colts/indianapolis-colts-owner-jim-irsay-stayed-silent/amp

sadly, Phil B. is most likely correct....... yuck

[jvan1973]

1 minute ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Thanks alot Jvan. First you make me have this ridiculous avatar, then you crush my hopes and dreams. I was just starting to like you, now you're really pushing it mister!

It's just his take.  Who knows what the truth is.   I find it puzzling that he won't squash these rumors

[Yoshinator]

Just now, jvan1973 said:

It's just his take.  Who knows what the truth is.   I find it puzzling that he won't squash these rumors

It's a good theory anyway. Irsay is either embarrassed to say he's keeping them, or he's talking to other possible applicants. I don't think it can be anything else.

[csmopar]

Just now, jvan1973 said:

It's just his take.  Who knows what the truth is.   I find it puzzling that he won't squash these rumors

That's what's getting me.  All it'd take is a simple tweet from the official colts account to post a brief statement thanking fans and looking forward to next year with Pags/Grigs. 

 

something that simple would crush this and make it stop instantly.  No explanation, just straight to the point.

[MB-ColtsFan]

57 minutes ago, csmopar said:

No but one thing Irsay is, is media-savy, he wouldn't let the media spin this stuff and distract the team unless there were some truth to the rumors that he is looking at options

Who's being distracted??  AV on the 18th at Pebble Beach?

I think even the coaching staff is probably on vacation for the next few weeks until they start looking at FA's?

[csmopar]

1 minute ago, MB-ColtsFan said:

Who's being distracted??  AV on the 18th at Pebble Beach?

I think even the coaching staff is probably on vacation for the next few weeks until they start looking at FA's?

Maybe but drama surrounding teams results in teams that don't perform well.

[jvan1973]

2 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Maybe but drama surrounding teams results in teams that don't perform well.

No,  bad players and bad coaching results in the team not performing well

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

Maybe but drama surrounding teams results in teams that don't perform well.

 

OTAs don't start until May. Regardless of what happens, any "drama" will be ironed out by then.

[csmopar]

Just now, jvan1973 said:

No,  bad players and bad coaching results in the team not performing well

Duh so does drama over keeping/not keeping said bad coaches/players

Just now, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

OTAs don't start until May. Regardless of what happens, any "drama" will be ironed out by then.

Hopefully lol, unless Grigson drafts another WR in the first