A Film Breakdown: Pagano's offense is ruining Andrew Luck

[Somewhere ovr the Waynebow]

This article,  simply put,  is the best explanation as to why the colts offense doesn't work and doesn't put Luck in a  position to succeed. This film breakdown compares and contrasts the offenses run by Luck with the offense run by Wilson. It's obvious how Wilson is in a position to succeed and luck is not.  

 

As someone who wagged the all 22 religiously, I can vouch that these aren't isolated examples.  I may post some additional screenshots I've taken.  

 

Thoughts? 

 

http://presnapreads.com/2016/07/14/andrew-luck-russell-wilson-statistics-and-pocket-passers/

[NannyMcafee]

I understand that irsay doesn't like any of the "available" coaches. But wouldn't it make sense to fire the guys who aren't working? Therefore showing that it is an available spot to work? Who is going to come to the colts when the coaching staff remains intact?

 

this article isn't news to colts fans that's for sure. 

[BullsColtsFan1]

I don't disagree 100% but I think Pagano's defense or lack thereof is preventing Andrew Luck from winning.  The dude puts up 24-30 points a game(usually), that "should" be enough to win.  I think the offense could improve but I think the defense is 85% of the problem.  Just my opinion though. 

[Somewhere ovr the Waynebow]

Just now, BullsColtsFan1 said:

I don't disagree 100% but I think Pagano's defense or lack thereof is preventing Andrew Luck from winning.  The dude puts up 24-30 points a game(usually), that "should" be enough to win.  I think the offense could improve but I think the defense is 85% of the problem.  Just my opinion though. 

Here's the thing: despite the inefficient offense,  you're right,  luck puts up a ton of points.  Think of what he could do in a better system.  He wouldn't get hit nearly as much which is the biggest problem with the colts offense.  

[NannyMcafee]

1 minute ago, BullsColtsFan1 said:

I don't disagree 100% but I think Pagano's defense or lack thereof is preventing Andrew Luck from winning.  The dude puts up 24-30 points a game(usually), that "should" be enough to win.  I think the offense could improve but I think the defense is 85% of the problem.  Just my opinion though. 

 

I can agree but it's not like the coaches don't know this. They need to be smart enough to change the play on offense when you clearly need to score 35+ a game. 

[Indeee]

1 minute ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

I can agree but it's not like the coaches don't know this. They need to be smart enough to change the play on offense when you clearly need to score 35+ a game. 

The coaches(chud)(Pags) evidently don't know this as it never changes. My biggest gripe with pagano is the inability, whether intentional or not, to recognize this and demand the scheme be changed!!

[LockeDown]

I  don't think Dungy interfered too much with Moore and Peyton's play calling.  I'm not sure Pagano deserves as much blame as Chud and Luck or Pep and Luck or Arians and Luck.

[Somewhere ovr the Waynebow]

15 minutes ago, Indeee said:

The coaches(chud)(Pags) evidently don't know this as it never changes. My biggest gripe with pagano is the inability, whether intentional or not, to recognize this and demand the scheme be changed!!

We've seen multiple coordinators come and go.  They've all had the same issues.... It's a Pagano problem, not a coordinator problem.  His vision for the offense is wrong.  

[21isSuperman]

What?  Our coaching staff is holding back the team?  Who would have guessed?

 

8 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

I  don't think Dungy interfered too much with Moore and Peyton's play calling.  I'm not sure Pagano deserves as much blame as Chud and Luck or Pep and Luck or Arians and Luck.

He's the head coach.  Whether it's his area of expertise or not, he's responsible for it.  One of the biggest knocks on Rex Ryan is his inability to develop a good offense wherever he's gone as a head coach.  One of the biggest knocks on Sean Payton is his choice of defensive coordinators.  Even if you're not an expert on one side of the ball, it's your responsibility as head coach to make sure all three phases of the game are performing well

[BullsColtsFan1]

32 minutes ago, Somewhere ovr the Waynebow said:

Here's the thing: despite the inefficient offense,  you're right,  luck puts up a ton of points.  Think of what he could do in a better system.  He wouldn't get hit nearly as much which is the biggest problem with the colts offense.  

I agree 100%

[BullsColtsFan1]

32 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

I can agree but it's not like the coaches don't know this. They need to be smart enough to change the play on offense when you clearly need to score 35+ a game. 

True but no QB should have to put up 35 to win.  You're right though, this teams offense has to put up that much to have a chance, I've said that for a while now.  With that being said, a better defense would help Luck out tremendously. 

[braveheartcolt]

40 minutes ago, Somewhere ovr the Waynebow said:

Here's the thing: despite the inefficient offense,  you're right,  luck puts up a ton of points.  Think of what he could do in a better system.  He wouldn't get hit nearly as much which is the biggest problem with the colts offense.  

8th in points per game. Less that a FG behind New England. Not quite in the Rams league of inefficiency yet...

[Steamboat_Shaun]

I think most people would agree that the offense is the least of this team's concerns at this point.

[Somewhere ovr the Waynebow]

1 minute ago, braveheartcolt said:

8th in points per game. Less that a FG behind New England. Not quite in the Rams league of inefficiency yet...

What it comes down to,  is that I truly believe that the offense would score more points in a different system.  I want a system (like Wilson's)  that helps Luck succeed,  not one where he is succeeding in spite of the system as is currently happening.  

[Somewhere ovr the Waynebow]

Just now, Steamboat_Shaun said:

I think most people would agree that the offense is the least of this team's concerns at this point.

Completely disagree,  I think that the hits Luck continually takes are one of the biggest concerns for this team.  And the system is a huge reason why he is taking all those hits.  

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 minute ago, Somewhere ovr the Waynebow said:

Completely disagree,  I think that the hits Luck continually takes are one of the biggest concerns for this team.  And the system is a huge reason why he is taking all those hits.  

 

There are lots of reasons Luck takes hits, it's not just one thing or another. His style of play will always mean that he takes more hits than a lot of guys. A homerun threat in the running game would go a long way to cleaning some of that up too. But even then, the offense is still a top 10 unit, whereas the defense is ranked 30th. There's some room for improvement on offense, but the defense is the MAJOR concern.

[indyagent17]

This is on Chud,Monachino and Pagano.  The lack of corrections in game are maddening and truly the MAIN reason we didn't win 10-11 games.  Look at how open the over the middle routes are. We never seem to have a linebacker that spies the running back or the short crossing route. Nearly every other team does a better job of this. If someone spied Abdullah that game and especially in the last 37 seconds of the first game we would be at least 9-7 and more likely a 10 or 11 win team

[The Fish]

The defense is so bad it's really hard to worry about any aspect of this side of the ball aside from hoping for improvement from the young guys on the o line.

[Indeee]

23 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

I think most people would agree that the offense is the least of this team's concerns at this point.

Offense is a huge problem. If it was a different scheme, more shorter routes and such, it would add to our time of possession which keeps the inept defense off the field

[Indeee]

28 minutes ago, braveheartcolt said:

8th in points per game. Less that a FG behind New England. Not quite in the Rams league of inefficiency yet...

Offense is a huge problem. If it was a different scheme, more shorter routes and such, it would add to our time of possession which keeps the inept defense off the field

[Superman]

25 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

I think most people would agree that the offense is the least of this team's concerns at this point.

 

Not really. The offense underperformed, especially in losses. Productive offense should not be confused for efficient offense. Good stats should not mask the deficient gameplans and play calling.

 

No question that there are other concerns, but we have the pieces on offense, and still fall short in situations where we should excel. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Somewhere ovr the Waynebow said:

This article,  simply put,  is the best explanation as to why the colts offense doesn't work and doesn't put Luck in a  position to succeed. This film breakdown compares and contrasts the offenses run by Luck with the offense run by Wilson. It's obvious how Wilson is in a position to succeed and luck is not.  

 

As someone who wagged the all 22 religiously, I can vouch that these aren't isolated examples.  I may post some additional screenshots I've taken.  

 

Thoughts? 

 

http://presnapreads.com/2016/07/14/andrew-luck-russell-wilson-statistics-and-pocket-passers/

 

I've been meaning to do this myself. Thanks for posting this. 

[Superman]

53 minutes ago, Somewhere ovr the Waynebow said:

We've seen multiple coordinators come and go.  They've all had the same issues.... It's a Pagano problem, not a coordinator problem.  His vision for the offense is wrong.  

 

Yup. Arians, Chud and Schottenheimer are all Coryell guys. This is the offense Pagano wants.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 minute ago, Indeee said:

Offense is a huge problem. If it was a different scheme, more shorter routes and such, it would add to our time of possession which keeps the inept defense off the field

 

I suspect that Pagano is a little too involved in dictating what Chud calls on offense (which leads to all the slow starts), but even with it's flaws, it's still a very good unit. Keep in mind that it was also a brand new scheme for Luck this year, starting 3 rookie OL, so they didn't really find a nice groove until about midseason. But to call it a "huge problem," I definitely wouldn't go that far. The defense is the huge problem, there's no way around it.

[krunk]

These cut ups are from Pep Hamiltons offense.  The same guy everybody said doesn't know anything about route concepts and doing anything  to help a quarterback.   Sketchy example.

[throwing BBZ]

His line is and has been poor as a unit. Period.
We must have 2 guards that can run block AND get outside to lead block runs and block in the screen game.
 That means NO Mewhort or Lard Butt Good.
 Lucky is a slow thinker post snap.
 He IS NOT gifted at all making quick thinking, reactionary, accurate throws in the short game.
 He actually SUCKS at it. He might see it, but he just doesn`t have the necessary quick trigger mentality.
 He looks good in the pocket when we block with 6-7 and they rush 4. LOL

He had games where he did not throw enough to his TE`s. A Joke!
Frank Gore is not the guy to give us the REAL run game required.

 

 Grigson is a Total Failure giving him an OL, and the pieces are not here to build what Lucky requires
 based on his OWN skill set.
 

 

[dgambill]

I'm not going to say the offense is awful or the biggest problem on the team but every part of the team needs to perform better. Perhaps outside the special teams play every position group and both sides of the ball with play calling could perform better. The team is just very very streaky. While we do put up a lot of points a lot come late in the game or in the 4th quarter. That's great to see a team finish well but also a lot of games teams are playing prevent or letting off the gas and we are racking up garbage points. The bigger issue to me is sustaining drives...keeping our defense off the field letting them recover. Seems early in games we aren't executing well...causing our defense to spend more time out there....they wear out and they give up points and then we play from behind. Honestly our offense sometimes depends on to many big plays for my liking. Don't get me wrong I appreciate those big catches from TY but I'd also like us to consistently move the chains like NE and Pittsburgh does. Sometimes its not how many points you score that tells you the story but how we do it. I'd be more interested in the offensive efficiency numbers than just the final numbers. Anyone have those? All said its the defense that we need fixed...and the offense needs tweeking.

[Superman]

7 minutes ago, krunk said:

These cut ups are from Pep Hamiltons offense.  The same guy everybody said doesn't know anything about route concepts and doing anything  to help a quarterback.   Sketchy example.

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

 

The same stuff is happening in Chud's offense.

[krunk]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

 

The same stuff is happening in Chud's offense.

I think he does a better job than pep.    Russell Wilson is plenty sacked in his own right.

[Superman]

1 minute ago, krunk said:

I think he does a better job than pep.    Russell Wilson is plenty sacked in his own right.

 

I don't really care about Russell Wilson, and I'm not asking for Bevell's offense. But they have just as bad a pass protecting OL as the Colts.

 

My point is that our play calling is problematic, and holds the offense back from being more efficient.

[ACanOfWOW]

15 minutes ago, Indeee said:

Offense is a huge problem. If it was a different scheme, more shorter routes and such, it would add to our time of possession which keeps the inept defense off the field

 

THIS. 

 

while i'm willing to say that the defense needs work - the organization's defensive philosophy has come a long way from Dungy's Tampa 2 & Larry Coyer's take on zone cvg. I am content and happy that the present unit is a little more proactive, physical and aggressive. furthermore, i'm thankful that it addressed the fundamental need for two big guys at the DT position. 

 

I'm a firm believer that championship caliber teams maximize their times of possession on offense (with points to show for it, most of the time) and are able to keep their defenses rested enough to mentally prepare them for the 3-4 crucial sequences that happen in each game. 

 

it's just a shame that under this current offensive scheme, its not a priority or even worth a momentary consideration. 

[lollygagger8]

1 hour ago, Somewhere ovr the Waynebow said:

We've seen multiple coordinators come and go.  They've all had the same issues.... It's a Pagano problem, not a coordinator problem.  His vision for the offense is wrong.  

 

This, this, this!! 

 

I think Dumbgano meddles into the game plan way too much. When he stays out of it, and lets Chud actually do his job, we get a game like the Vikings game.

[Superman]

7 minutes ago, lollygagger8 said:

 

This, this, this!! 

 

I think Dumbgano meddles into the game plan way too much. When he stays out of it, and lets Chud actually do his job, we get a game like the Vikings game.

 

I think this is a case of confirmation bias. When the gameplan works, it's because Pagano got out of the way; when it doesn't work, it's because Pagano meddled. There's no evidence for either of those conclusions.

[coltsfeva]

1 hour ago, Somewhere ovr the Waynebow said:

What it comes down to,  is that I truly believe that the offense would score more points in a different system.  I want a system (like Wilson's)  that helps Luck succeed,  not one where he is succeeding in spite of the system as is currently happening.  

To your point: the offense does have to change and think we saw that starting to change with a better run game and shorter passes. Looking forward to more of it. It looks like the O-line is getting better with good depth. This draft is supposed to have some decent pass rushers, RBs, CBs and LBs.                        I'm in a wait and see mindset.                                                       I live Philly and hear the Eagles fans wanting Doug Peterson and Howie Roseman gone. But then again, what do they know?

[Bigbadbill]

2 hours ago, Somewhere ovr the Waynebow said:

This article,  simply put,  is the best explanation as to why the colts offense doesn't work and doesn't put Luck in a  position to succeed. This film breakdown compares and contrasts the offenses run by Luck with the offense run by Wilson. It's obvious how Wilson is in a position to succeed and luck is not.  

 

As someone who wagged the all 22 religiously, I can vouch that these aren't isolated examples.  I may post some additional screenshots I've taken.  

 

Thoughts? 

 

http://presnapreads.com/2016/07/14/andrew-luck-russell-wilson-statistics-and-pocket-passers/

Luck causes most of his own problems. He can't read defenses, he locks onto one receiver, he can't get rid of the ball quickly to check down receivers and he gets hit a lot because of that. New coaching is not going to fix Andrew Luck.

 

[lollygagger8]

Just now, Superman said:

 

I think this is a case of confirmation bias. When the gameplan works, it's because Pagano got out of the way; when it doesn't work, it's because Pagano meddled. There's no evidence for either of those conclusions.

 

It's what I believe. What's your conclusion then? (so I can also say you have no evidence, lol) 

 

Is Chud really that wildly inconsistent and he is the one doesn't believe in short passes, slants, screens and getting the ball out of Luck's hands quickly? 

[coltsfeva]

18 minutes ago, Bigbadbill said:

Luck causes most of his own problems. He can't read defenses, he locks onto one receiver, he can't get rid of the ball quickly to check down receivers and he gets hit a lot because of that. New coaching is not going to fix Andrew Luck.

 

Andrew has had some issues. I just don't think we've seen the best of him and of Chud for that matter. Weren't there short passes near the end of the season?                                      How would Andrew be with a dynamic run game, time to throw and with shorter passes being incorporated into the game plan? This team, coaching staff and Grigson are not stagnant and stubborn. They are learning from their mistakes. Let's see how this plays out. 

[coltsfeva]

19 minutes ago, Bigbadbill said:

Luck causes most of his own problems. He can't read defenses, he locks onto one receiver, he can't get rid of the ball quickly to check down receivers and he gets hit a lot because of that. New coaching is not going to fix Andrew Luck.

 

Andrew has had some issues. I just don't think we've seen the best of him and of a Chud for that matter. How would Andrew be with a dynamic run game, time to throw and with shorter passes being incorporated into the game plan? Just sayin...

[DougDew]

The offense needs to be modernized.  

[Superman]

11 minutes ago, lollygagger8 said:

 

It's what I believe. What's your conclusion then? (so I can also say you have no evidence, lol) 

 

Is Chud really that wildly inconsistent and he is the one doesn't believe in short passes, slants, screens and getting the ball out of Luck's hands quickly? 

 

You made a claim with no evidence. I'm not making a claim. Not trying to be that guy, but absolving Chud of responsibility on the grounds of Chuck meddling -- with no evidence that Chuck meddles -- is eyebrow raising.

 

As for Chud, he's calling the plays. It's his offense, his playbook, his gameplans. Chuck absolutely has input as the head coach, but we've seen no indication that he's telling Chud what to run, when to run it, etc. Chud is a Coryell disciple, and everything he runs goes right back to his roots. Any film study of the Colts offense shows a typical Coryell offense.

 

Where I hold Chuck responsible is that he keeps hiring Coryell guys, so it's obvious that this is his preferred offense. But I don't think there's any evidence that he's hiring guys and then telling them 'run what I want.' I think he's hiring guys who he knows will run what he wants -- Arians, Chud, Schottenheimer, all Coryell guys. The one guy that Chuck reportedly didn't handpick is the one guy that wasn't a Coryell disciple. 

 

What's particularly frustrating is that we have gameplans where they do throw slants, screens, etc., all the stuff I think they should run more often. Then the next week, that stuff is nowhere to be found. The offense lacks a true identity because of this.