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SilentHill

This team seems to have a culture problem.

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On 10/2/2016 at 9:33 PM, CanuckColtsFan said:

The team has a wining culture. Especially under Irsay. The most wins in a decade. I'm willing to concede now, the team lacks talent and coaching can be called into question. It's sucks, we had some good years with Luck. I thought we did well last year considering we lost our QB. I figured Luck would come back healthy and go back to winning. This is really terrible play but I don't think it's a culture issue 

It absolutely is a culture issue. This team has a "winning regular season games and putting up another nice banner" is good enough culture. Irsay touted in the forward to the 100 facts Colts fans need to know book how proud he is of most wins in a decade. That should be an embarrassment considering the multiple HoFers and wins resulted in one championship. He was ok throwing away perfection against an extremely beatable Jets and Bills team. That's unforgiveable

 

It's seen in the fact we throw up banners for anything, including getting stomped in a championship game. I'd rather have no banner than be reminded of that butt kicking and even celebrating that we had the opportunity to get our * kicked. Maybe not rewarding mediocrity will push the team to achieve greatness. That move made us the laughing stock of the league.

 

It's seen in the fact we have by far the most missed games from starters than anyone in the league. We ranked 24th or worst in adjusted games lost from 2006 to 2014. We went to the middle of the pack last year, which of course is when we lose the one guy we can't afford to. Don't tell me you can't predict injuries, it's a trend that playing in Indianapolis means you will get injured more often. Ryan Grigson came here and his first takeaway was 

Quote

The weight room was a problem. It was outdated, with insufficient equipment and only one squat rack.

 

It sickens me to hear things like we don't disclose Luck's injuries properly, and that our team doctor suggested that Tyler Varga take a medicine that virtually everybody else agreed he should not take.

 

It's seen in the fact we let guys go, they are picked up by other teams, and for the most part, are immediately dropped. Someone on this forum even said it shows we are smart for cutting guys lose because others did too, when in reality it shows we are dumb for having them around so long. We also see guys like Jerry Hughes and Dion Lewis having excellent careers with other teams.

 

It's seen in the fact that before our division caught up with us (or we fell down to them), we feasted on them like cupcakes, with several impressive wins to start this era off against Green Bay, Denver, San Fran, Seattle, but obviously couldn't stop the one team that's plagued us all millenium. We lost some games after losing Reggie but that was ok at the time. In 2014 we started beating all the teams we should beat and losing to the ones we should be losing to (Denver, Pittsburgh, New England). In 2015 we somehow could have beat the Panthers on the road and somehow beat the Broncos but then lost embarrassingly to the Jags, Saints, Bills, Jets. Our record outside of our division is less than .500 I believe now. We also went from one of the least penalized to most penalized teams in that span.

 

It's seen in the fact that every week we fall behind big, committing the same mistakes, and then we come up too little too late. Then we are told we need to keep chopping wood, stay humble, and every other cliche in the book by a guy who allowed that fake punt last year to happen, and to happen with personnel in who didn't know what he was doing. If Pagano did this as the coach of the Jets he would be gone yesterday, and that's a miserable franchise (yet they own the Colts in this era).

 

It's absolutely a culture issue. We have an extremely soft culture.

 

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14 hours ago, stitches said:

 

 

I'm sorry but I can't agree with giving Grigson so much leeway and I don't agree with 2014 and 2015 being decent. This team has 2 starting level players on the defensive side... TWO ... and 6 on the offensive side!!! You cannot excuse that. This is Grigson's job. In doing his job he's gotten this team to a point where we have 8 players on the roster who are starter level... We have so many holes to plug that we will need at least two more years before we even start resembling a good football team.

 

Also... please, lets not act like all he's screwed up so far is the strategy with free agents. Even though we had an impatient strategy with getting bad over the hill vets, he still had plenty of draft picks to play with and all he's managed to do is ... again... will repeat myself - 8 starting level players on the whole roster. Even if all his FAs bust, his draft still needed to be much better, especially on the defensive side. It's not like Irsay told him - 'don't care about the draft you can draft busts all you want, try to get what you need from FA market'. He's still had over 30 draft picks in the 2012-2015 period.

 

How many more draft picks would he need to get the next 8 starter-level players? What about the next 13 to fill out the roster? I'm sorry, I just don't trust him. I don't! I don't want him to draft for the Colts and I don't want Pagano to coach the players drafted.

 

About the 2016 draft - I liked it better than other drafts, but first, I don't know if that means anything. I am by no means an expert and I might be wrong about our draft and it might turn out to be another slew of failed picks. And second even if it's relatively good, I have no confidence that this is what I can expect from Grigson going forward. I have much more reasons to believe that it's going to be good draft by accident than good draft because of Grigson's talent evaluation skills.

 

 

I don't think I'm giving Grigson leeway. I was ready for him to go after last year. All I'm saying is I don't think he sucks as much as everyone else does, and I believe his 2016 offseason -- not just the draft, the whole strategy -- is more typical of what we can expect moving forward. That being the case, I've settled into the idea that he's going to be around, given the fact that Irsay evaluated him on the basis of his first four years and decided to keep him. What's happened since then is a promising offseason, so why would he go now?

 

I don't agree with your assessment of the previous drafts. They weren't as bad as you claim. So the idea that 2016 is an anomaly for Grigson is something I don't agree with (at least in terms of quality; 4 OL is not typical). 

 

I also disagree with your '8 starter level players' assessment. Luck, Hilton, AC, Mewhort, Moncrief, Gore, Allen, Langford, Anderson, Geathers, Adams, Davis, Walden. That's 13. I'm not counting Jackson, Parry, Robinson, Reitz, Mathis, Doyle, Good or Dorsett, who we could argue about, nor am I counting any of the 2016 acquisitions (Kelly, Haeg, Green, Ridgeway), who look okay.

 

To the bolded, I agree that we need a couple more good drafts before we should get excited. But I'll add that I think good coaching would have this team 3-1, maybe 4-0 right now. Not a title contender, still, but they're underperforming so far, which isn't good for an already questionable roster.

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10 hours ago, The Old Crow said:

 

I think your analysis of the Colt's recent draft is the Stampede Blue article which declared them good drafts. This article was in response to a Rotoworld article where they rated Grigson 25th out of 28 GM's in the league. 

 

A better analysis would be his Philadelphia Eagle years when as Director of player personnel from 2010-2011 the Eagles went 10-6, then 8-8. In 2012, using  players he had a direct influence on , they fell to 4-12. This is a pattern you see in Indy. Strong start, then rot behind the floor boards. 

 

During that time, the Eagles also fired their coach, went through 4 QBs, and traded away a handful of their best players.

 

Let's not pin the Eagles rapid decline on Ryan Grigson when he wasn't even in direct control of personnel. Not unless you're also going to give him credit for Brent Celek, Desean Jackson, Lesean McCoy, Jeremy Maclin, Brandon Graham, Nate Allen, Riley Cooper, Jason Kelce, etc. He also ran the scouts who set up the board to draft Cox, Kendricks and Curry in 2012.

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10 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

 

2) Why can you not admit that Grigson just isn't very good? Remember his "PROTECT 12" note that he supposedly has on his desk? How's he been doing at that? Luck's getting turned into a $140M punching bag by this GM. 

 

3) You think people can't quote the media just because you don't agree with it? Hilarious. 

 

What I said was  "Heck, you could even replace the word "culture" with "coaching"  <- Read the title of the thread you are posting in. 

 

2) This is a 2015 discussion. Me saying "Grigson isn't as bad as you say" turns into a full throated endorsement of him, and really I'm (stupidly) arguing against the extreme caricature of him that everyone likes to promote. Again, he's just not as bad as you say he is.

 

3) Again, you can quote the media as much as you want. But when you repeat debunked nonsense, I'm going to call it debunked nonsense.

 

You could replace the word culture with "talent" or "urgency" or whatever you want. I'm not sure how it's relevant.

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Robert Mathis 35 yrs. old needs to go now right now. Thanks for the memories but  his time has passed. He is zero in sacks  and he was never good against the run. Marvin Harrison and Manning were show the door due to age so he needs to exit now as well. Bow the Colts bring up a 7th round draft pick from the little league in  guy named Bates. Who? Vinateria is 43  and Gore is 33 and yes no problem now but "building" a tem is the problem as the Colts have bad starters and no back ups worth a nickel. The highest paid player in the NFL is Luck and t best the Colts can't even depend on a tiny piece of luck when they exhibit no skills to get a win. I'll bet a bundle this time next year the subject matter will be the same as it is now.  I have always believed in my working life if one cannot due the job, admit it and move aside for someone who can and that applies to all levels.

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I don't think I'm giving Grigson leeway. I was ready for him to go after last year. All I'm saying is I don't think he sucks as much as everyone else does, and I believe his 2016 offseason -- not just the draft, the whole strategy -- is more typical of what we can expect moving forward. That being the case, I've settled into the idea that he's going to be around, given the fact that Irsay evaluated him on the basis of his first four years and decided to keep him. What's happened since then is a promising offseason, so why would he go now?

 

I don't agree with your assessment of the previous drafts. They weren't as bad as you claim. So the idea that 2016 is an anomaly for Grigson is something I don't agree with (at least in terms of quality; 4 OL is not typical). 

 

I also disagree with your '8 starter level players' assessment. Luck, Hilton, AC, Mewhort, Moncrief, Gore, Allen, Langford, Anderson, Geathers, Adams, Davis, Walden. That's 13. I'm not counting Jackson, Parry, Robinson, Reitz, Mathis, Doyle, Good or Dorsett, who we could argue about, nor am I counting any of the 2016 acquisitions (Kelly, Haeg, Green, Ridgeway), who look okay.

 

To the bolded, I agree that we need a couple more good drafts before we should get excited. But I'll add that I think good coaching would have this team 3-1, maybe 4-0 right now. Not a title contender, still, but they're underperforming so far, which isn't good for an already questionable roster.

I guess we have to agree to disagree on Grigson's drafting.

About the starters - lets put it this way - on how many teams will Gore, Allen, Langford, Geathers and Walden start?

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13 minutes ago, stitches said:

I guess we have to agree to disagree on Grigson's drafting.

About the starters - lets put it this way - on how many teams will Gore, Allen, Langford, Geathers and Walden start?

 

Do you watch other teams?

 

A lot. The Giants are starting Landon Collins. I think Geathers is better. Langford is less than 100%, but his play last year was starter quality. Gore would be in a timeshare, which he should be here also, but he'd get plenty of reps. Walden is a 3-4 guy, but he's playing as well as several 3-4 Sam backers in the league. Everybody celebrated the Pats signing Jabaal Sheard because he had 8 sacks last year; Walden has 4 through 4 games, on a team with bad pass rush.

 

Allen is a good TE, and not a lot of teams have good TEs. Yes, he's not playing well right now, but I don't agree with the bearish outlook on him. Replace him with Doyle, who is playing very well, definitely at a starter level. 

 

We agree on a lot of other players, I'm sure. The CB position is a mess, ILB and OLB are awful, OL is all about young players (who I like for the most part, but still young) and an underperforming $10m/year LT, nothing at RB... Worst yet, no real playmakers on defense -- I like Geathers and Green, but let's see how they turn out. The roster isn't pretty, and Grigson has to own that because it's entirely his roster. Even if we agreed on all these middling guys, there are still no playmakers, and missing on Werner and Richardson, and misusing FA money in 2013 and 2015 is to blame for that. Even watching Jerry Hughes get a "meh" sack on Sunday was disappointing... 

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5 hours ago, Superman said:

 

During that time, the Eagles also fired their coach, went through 4 QBs, and traded away a handful of their best players.

 

Let's not pin the Eagles rapid decline on Ryan Grigson when he wasn't even in direct control of personnel. Not unless you're also going to give him credit for Brent Celek, Desean Jackson, Lesean McCoy, Jeremy Maclin, Brandon Graham, Nate Allen, Riley Cooper, Jason Kelce, etc. He also ran the scouts who set up the board to draft Cox, Kendricks and Curry in 2012.

 

It is true Grigson has picked a few gems, but he has had many free agent busts and failed to put a complete team around Luck. He may be better suited for a scouting or player evaluation role, rather than the more multi- faceted GM role. 

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4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Do you watch other teams?

 

A lot. The Giants are starting Landon Collins. I think Geathers is better. Langford is less than 100%, but his play last year was starter quality. Gore would be in a timeshare, which he should be here also, but he'd get plenty of reps. Walden is a 3-4 guy, but he's playing as well as several 3-4 Sam backers in the league. Everybody celebrated the Pats signing Jabaal Sheard because he had 8 sacks last year; Walden has 4 through 4 games, on a team with bad pass rush.

 

Allen is a good TE, and not a lot of teams have good TEs. Yes, he's not playing well right now, but I don't agree with the bearish outlook on him. Replace him with Doyle, who is playing very well, definitely at a starter level. 

 

We agree on a lot of other players, I'm sure. The CB position is a mess, ILB and OLB are awful, OL is all about young players (who I like for the most part, but still young) and an underperforming $10m/year LT, nothing at RB... Worst yet, no real playmakers on defense -- I like Geathers and Green, but let's see how they turn out. The roster isn't pretty, and Grigson has to own that because it's entirely his roster. Even if we agreed on all these middling guys, there are still no playmakers, and missing on Werner and Richardson, and misusing FA money in 2013 and 2015 is to blame for that. Even watching Jerry Hughes get a "meh" sack on Sunday was disappointing... 

I think you hit on something big here by pointing out the lack of playmakers on defense.  This is huge, at best they have a bunch of guys who are solid at their jobs but don't make a lot of big plays.  Mike Adams does have a tendency to be in the right spot at the right time so he's probably the closest thing to a playmaker they have on defense.  Even a guy like Davis who is a shutdown corner doesn't come up with a lot of picks.  Honestly Butler has been the CB who seems to come up with picks.  When you look back at the mid 2000 Colts defenses while they weren't normally great they had a pair of guys in Mathis and Freeney who didn't just sack the QB but would also get the strip sack at a key point.  This team needs a couple of guys who come up with the big turnover that can change a game.

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On 10/2/2016 at 3:15 PM, SilentHill said:

I, along with everyone else (I'm sure) are sick and tired of seeing this team come out flat, and intentionally try to be a team that that are not. Originally I thought it was Pep, not making offensive game plans that played to our strengths, but it all seems like too much of a coincidence that Chud is having the same problems. We are not a smash mouth football team, we don't have the personnel for it, and we will not have the personnel for a LONG time with Grigson drafting. Part of me thinks that the coaches show the 2013 game footage against SF every week, saying this is who we want to be.

 

You look at other teams in the NFL, and they are going out there and mixing things up, and playing to the strengths of their team, and even winning tough games with backup players, but we continually fail to look prepared, and continually execute the wrong game plan, while falling behind early, only for that light bulb moment going off when it's almost too late.

 

I think the entire organization of coaches and front office that surround this football team are much too soft. I feel like no one is held accountable for their mistakes, and it's one of those "we'll get em next week X Player, don't worry about it, just focus on the next one" I always go back to it, that when Reggie signed with the Patriots he left shortly thereafter because he wasn't having "fun" and it was too much like a business. That has always stood out to me as a HUGE red flag. I liken this to the SF 49ers pre and post Harbaugh, that is what a winning culture and a good coach can do, that team missed the playoffs 8 years in a row, Harbaugh came in, they were 6-10 in the previous season (Where the Colts are headed) the next season they went 13-3 and went to the conference championship team. next year 11-4-1 and Superbowl, Next year 12-4 and NFL title game, The next season they went 8-8 and I believe it was really the GM who messed up here, having a Grigson like run in FA, and an exposed QB. and they have fallen into the abyss without him ever since.The moral of the story, is that some teams bring in those guys with that winning culture, something the Colts could use a little bit of.

 

The team didn't have a culture problem in 2012...   or 2013, or 14 or even 15.

 

Just because we're 1-3 doesn't mean we have a culture problem.     

 

We're 1-3 because we have a talent problem and we have a serious problem with injuries. 

 

That's why we're 1-3.

 

As for "too soft"........    Nagano just fired about half the coaching staff 9 months ago.    That's how you hold people accountable.     Coaches got fired.      And so are players.      There's considerable turnover on the roster.      So players are accountable.     You're reaching because you're frustrated.

 

The facts don't support your guesses.....   and that's all they are right now....    guesses.

 

Maybe they'll be proven right by the end of the year.....    but for right now,  it's just a guess.

 

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12 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

 

Only to you. 

 

"Protect 12." 

 

Four draft picks used on the offensive line. Probably a year too late, maybe two years. Let's go back and change that... 

 

It's not even worth discussing at this point. 

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11 hours ago, Superman said:

 

"Protect 12." 

 

Four draft picks used on the offensive line. Probably a year too late, maybe two years. Let's go back and change that... 

 

It's not even worth discussing at this point. 

Image result for agreed gif

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On 10/5/2016 at 3:47 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

The team didn't have a culture problem in 2012...   or 2013, or 14 or even 15.

 

Just because we're 1-3 doesn't mean we have a culture problem.     

 

We're 1-3 because we have a talent problem and we have a serious problem with injuries. 

 

That's why we're 1-3.

 

As for "too soft"........    Nagano just fired about half the coaching staff 9 months ago.    That's how you hold people accountable.     Coaches got fired.      And so are players.      There's considerable turnover on the roster.      So players are accountable.     You're reaching because you're frustrated.

 

The facts don't support your guesses.....   and that's all they are right now....    guesses.

 

Maybe they'll be proven right by the end of the year.....    but for right now,  it's just a guess.

 

Good post.

I would say though, maybe the "culture" problem is one of accepting that stopping the run isn't a priority.   For over a decade, the Colts have drafted for high powered offense and smaller fast defenders.  

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On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 6:15 PM, SilentHill said:

I, along with everyone else (I'm sure) are sick and tired of seeing this team come out flat, and intentionally try to be a team that that are not. Originally I thought it was Pep, not making offensive game plans that played to our strengths, but it all seems like too much of a coincidence that Chud is having the same problems. We are not a smash mouth football team, we don't have the personnel for it, and we will not have the personnel for a LONG time with Grigson drafting. Part of me thinks that the coaches show the 2013 game footage against SF every week, saying this is who we want to be.

 

You look at other teams in the NFL, and they are going out there and mixing things up, and playing to the strengths of their team, and even winning tough games with backup players, but we continually fail to look prepared, and continually execute the wrong game plan, while falling behind early, only for that light bulb moment going off when it's almost too late.

 

I think the entire organization of coaches and front office that surround this football team are much too soft. I feel like no one is held accountable for their mistakes, and it's one of those "we'll get em next week X Player, don't worry about it, just focus on the next one" I always go back to it, that when Reggie signed with the Patriots he left shortly thereafter because he wasn't having "fun" and it was too much like a business. That has always stood out to me as a HUGE red flag. I liken this to the SF 49ers pre and post Harbaugh, that is what a winning culture and a good coach can do, that team missed the playoffs 8 years in a row, Harbaugh came in, they were 6-10 in the previous season (Where the Colts are headed) the next season they went 13-3 and went to the conference championship team. next year 11-4-1 and Superbowl, Next year 12-4 and NFL title game, The next season they went 8-8 and I believe it was really the GM who messed up here, having a Grigson like run in FA, and an exposed QB. and they have fallen into the abyss without him ever since.The moral of the story, is that some teams bring in those guys with that winning culture, something the Colts could use a little bit of.

Shhhhh.  They all gettin' paid, sir.  Don't upset their little gravy train.

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On 10/5/2016 at 3:47 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

The team didn't have a culture problem in 2012...   or 2013, or 14 or even 15.

 

Just because we're 1-3 doesn't mean we have a culture problem.     

 

We're 1-3 because we have a talent problem and we have a serious problem with injuries. 

 

That's why we're 1-3.

 

As for "too soft"........    Nagano just fired about half the coaching staff 9 months ago.    That's how you hold people accountable.     Coaches got fired.      And so are players.      There's considerable turnover on the roster.      So players are accountable.     You're reaching because you're frustrated.

 

The facts don't support your guesses.....   and that's all they are right now....    guesses.

 

Maybe they'll be proven right by the end of the year.....    but for right now,  it's just a guess.

 

 

I'd argue that this team has had a culture problem since 2012.

 

We've had the SAME exact problem on this team since 2012. We fail to stop the run, we don't come prepared to play the game as evidence by the slow starts.

 

There is no tenacity in this team, it's flat and looks uninspired. We have the shortest practices in the NFL, and a bunch of other marshmallow like fluff that makes this team soft.

 

These are the culture problems that I'm talking about, and they are 100% irrefutable, so I'm not sure how you interpret "culture" but I'm guessing you are doing it in a fashion that I did not intend.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, krunk said:

This team has an execution problem

 

Agreed, the source of this execution problem is the debate ;)

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On 10/5/2016 at 3:47 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

The team didn't have a culture problem in 2012...   or 2013, or 14 or even 15.

 

Just because we're 1-3 doesn't mean we have a culture problem.     

 

We're 1-3 because we have a talent problem and we have a serious problem with injuries. 

 

That's why we're 1-3.

 

As for "too soft"........    Nagano just fired about half the coaching staff 9 months ago.    That's how you hold people accountable.     Coaches got fired.      And so are players.      There's considerable turnover on the roster.      So players are accountable.     You're reaching because you're frustrated.

 

The facts don't support your guesses.....   and that's all they are right now....    guesses.

 

Maybe they'll be proven right by the end of the year.....    but for right now,  it's just a guess.

 

Bingo......

 

All these guesses by Colts fans is getting out of hand..It's only week 5 in the NFL.

 

I guess Carolina and Arizona have "culture problems" to.

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22 minutes ago, SilentHill said:

 

Agreed, the source of this execution problem is the debate ;)

 

Know your job. Do your job is the problem.  Who's going to debate that Dwayne Allen and Frank gore don't have talent.  Both of them drop balls during drives for example.

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You have a game changing player like Luck turning the football over every game except one.   Stuff like that.  A team that lacks some talent here and there can still win games if they play smart football.  Take care of the basics and you'll get past talented teams who don't do those things as well as you do.  I saw the Pats do this all of last year and everybody screamed the entire offseason that they didn't have any talent in the secondary.  Many people laughed at their cornerbacks and other players for most of the off season.

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On 10/4/2016 at 5:15 AM, stitches said:

 

 

I'm sorry but I can't agree with giving Grigson so much leeway and I don't agree with 2014 and 2015 being decent. This team has 2 starting level players on the defensive side... TWO ... and 6 on the offensive side!!! You cannot excuse that. This is Grigson's job. In doing his job he's gotten this team to a point where we have 8 players on the roster who are starter level... We have so many holes to plug that we will need at least two more years before we even start resembling a good football team.

 

Also... please, lets not act like all he's screwed up so far is the strategy with free agents. Even though we had an impatient strategy with getting bad over the hill vets, he still had plenty of draft picks to play with and all he's managed to do is ... again... will repeat myself - 8 starting level players on the whole roster. Even if all his FAs bust, his draft still needed to be much better, especially on the defensive side. It's not like Irsay told him - 'don't care about the draft you can draft busts all you want, try to get what you need from FA market'. He's still had over 30 draft picks in the 2012-2015 period.

 

How many more draft picks would he need to get the next 8 starter-level players? What about the next 13 to fill out the roster? I'm sorry, I just don't trust him. I don't! I don't want him to draft for the Colts and I don't want Pagano to coach the players drafted.

 

About the 2016 draft - I liked it better than other drafts, but first, I don't know if that means anything. I am by no means an expert and I might be wrong about our draft and it might turn out to be another slew of failed picks. And second even if it's relatively good, I have no confidence that this is what I can expect from Grigson going forward. I have much more reasons to believe that it's going to be good draft by accident than good draft because of Grigson's talent evaluation skills.

 

Common pitfall we all share as fans when our team is losing....all the other teams have better players and are better coached.  Slipping into the cracks of generalities is about the only way to vent our frustration with losing. So, I get it.  

 

We hear pundits talk about who has the strongest rosters and fume that we don't have the players....but you are way overestimating how many "Starter level" players are on other teams as would fit the same standard you are holding the Colt's roster to.  In reality, even the elite teams are composed of capable players who are made better by a handful of difference-makers on the roster. 

 

We simply don't have those difference-makers on the defensive side (exaggerated by injury and development ie. Anderson), and our stop gaps such as Mathis and DQ are invisible.

 

We score a lot of points on the offensive side because we do have the difference-makers.  Even with injuries to the OL.  The offense has a strong roster.  Anyone that says otherwise is just upset.

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When you lack talent in certain areas and you are also bad with the basics that's a killer combination. Playing smart football and sound football can go a long way in fixing some of this stuff and we are capable of doing so.  The Colts know this and that is why they got rid of two of the Sloppiest football players from the Jaguars game.  Cromartie and Moore.

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On 10/4/2016 at 9:00 PM, stitches said:

I guess we have to agree to disagree on Grigson's drafting.

About the starters - lets put it this way - on how many teams will Gore, Allen, Langford, Geathers and Walden start?

I think you also may be overestimating how many good players, starter level, make up a "good draft" historically.  If you have the time, go through the last 5 drafts of every team and tally them up.  On average, 2 buildings blocks form a good draft and 3 is a great draft.  We've done that every year except 2013.

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Right now on defense I think we are capable at every position except those linebackers.  We have a lot of youth and lack of experience there combined with one old player in Dqwell Jackson who is playing kind of so so right now.  Mcnary who I just can't make myself trust.  Then you have Mathis not putting out much.  I think Bates adds a little bit of speed, athleticism and size to the position but I have no clue as to whether he'll be good at it or not.  Edwin Jackson has speed, but he needs work in coverage.  And Morrison can't really do anything except play the run. 

 

Wouldn't surprise me to see us make another move soon at the LB position to upgrade the unit a little bit.   With some of the players we have in the secondary I'm wondering if we have any plans on incorporating more zone coverage or maybe 2 safeties deep with Man Coverage underneath?   Feel like some changes are on the way schematically.

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2 hours ago, SilentHill said:

 

I'd argue that this team has had a culture problem since 2012.

 

We've had the SAME exact problem on this team since 2012. We fail to stop the run, we don't come prepared to play the game as evidence by the slow starts.

 

There is no tenacity in this team, it's flat and looks uninspired. We have the shortest practices in the NFL, and a bunch of other marshmallow like fluff that makes this team soft.

 

These are the culture problems that I'm talking about, and they are 100% irrefutable, so I'm not sure how you interpret "culture" but I'm guessing you are doing it in a fashion that I did not intend.

 

 

 

Why you don't understand that we don't have a talented roster and have rarely had a talented roster under this new regime is beyond me.

 

It's probably been the number one issue since Grigson/Pagano/Luck arrived.      The lack of talent around Luck.

 

And somehow,  instead of understanding that we have a lack of talent, you come up with....

 

"We have a culture problem"
 

I don't know where you got that we have the shortest practices in the NFL,  in 4 and a half years on this website,  that's the first time I've ever read that here.

 

And considering we've been badly hit by injuries ever year,  that may account for the issue if it's indeed true.

 

The no tenacity, flat and looks uninspired is the result of a lack of talent.     We're struggling to do the things we want to do.      That's why the team looks bad.

 

You're a frustrated fan and you're reaching for answers.     The answers are right in front of you and you're not seeing them.       That's what frustrated fans do....   they reach for answers.

 

It's not hard at all to refute most everything you have to say.       But, it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Why you don't understand that we don't have a talented roster and have rarely had a talented roster under this new regime is beyond me.

 

It's probably been the number one issue since Grigson/Pagano/Luck arrived.      The lack of talent around Luck.

 

And somehow,  instead of understanding that we have a lack of talent, you come up with....

 

"We have a culture problem"
 

I don't know where you got that we have the shortest practices in the NFL,  in 4 and a half years on this website,  that's the first time I've ever read that here.

 

And considering we've been badly hit by injuries ever year,  that may account for the issue if it's indeed true.

 

The no tenacity, flat and looks uninspired is the result of a lack of talent.     We're struggling to do the things we want to do.      That's why the team looks bad.

 

You're a frustrated fan and you're reaching for answers.     The answers are right in front of you and you're not seeing them.       That's what frustrated fans do....   they reach for answers.

 

It's not hard at all to refute most everything you have to say.       But, it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

 

 

When we win the Division he will become less frustrated haha 

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On October 3, 2016 at 3:11 AM, stitches said:

 

Okay, lets forget the dwelling on the past for a moment and answer those two simple questions -

 

1. do you trust Grigson to build up this team again? If yes, what gives you the confidence?

2. do you trust Pagano to coach up the team that Grigson gives him?  If yes, what gives you the confidence?

 

To me the answer to both those questions is a resounding NO. I don't. I see the change of strategy. It's irrefutable. We went from getting old FA vets to focusing on the draft. Simple change of strategy won't make this team great again, though. You need good execution of the strategy and the right decisions. And you need good coaching to solidify the good decision of the GM. What gives you confidence that Grigson and Pagano are the people to do those two very simple yet crucial parts of executing the new strategy? I honestly can't think of a reason why anybody would have any confidence in either of them...

And herein lies the reason why I want both replaced. I just don't trust them and I don't want another year of the rebuild wasted on PROVEN bad decision-makers and PROVEN bad coaching. .

No, the real question is this: Is Jimmy willing to eat 2 four yr. contract extensions on Pags & Grigs, swallow his pride, admit he was monumentally wrong in retaining both the HC & GM? Pride, wounded pride is a dangerous thing, which tells me that Jimmy will let this play out for 2 more seasons at least. 

On October 3, 2016 at 4:51 AM, colts8718 said:

You must be related to Irsay smell the coffee and wake up:wall:

Who would Jimmy promote from within should he cut bait with Pags at season's end? Both Chud & Philbin need to remain exactly where they are as OC & OL coach. Also, Jimmy would still owe Chuck & Ryan their full salaries anyway even if both guys were released tomorrow so let them earn their incomes at the very least. Otherwise, an owner is setting fire to their money with zero return on their investment. 

On October 3, 2016 at 6:43 AM, SilentHill said:

 

You couldn't be more wrong.

 

If you really think it's a talent problem then why are we destroying teams with our hurry-up offense late in games? It's clearly a preparation, discipline, culture problem.

 

I'm not saying the roster is uber talented, but if we were prepared and disciplined we would be 3-1 right now instead of 1-3.

Yes, I agree. A lack of concentration is a poor reflection on Pagano. No argument there. 

On October 3, 2016 at 7:36 AM, RollerColt said:

We need accountability on the field and off of it. I see Andrew standing there taking the hits, (some of is deserved, some of it is not), but hardly anyone else. 

 

Our players shouldn't feel safe with their jobs. Right now they are playing as if they have nothing to lose, when they should be playing as if they have everything to lose! 

 

Consistently committing stupid penalties? You're benched! 

 

Consistently dropping easy passes? Benched!

 

Consistently missing tackles? Goodbye! 

 

This is type of culture we need. It lights a fire under people's behinds and makes them better. Or worse. And if worse, then they don't play for us anymore. 

 

The goal should always be the Superbowl Title. Not the division title. This isn't 2A high school football. This is supposed to be professional...

 

 

While I agree, players need to know that they will be replaced in the starting rotation if they keep dropping passes or missing tackles repeatedly. There is no guarantee that this firm oversight hand isn't being applied behind the scenes as we speak. Could it be that the locker room has tuned Pags message out already? Maybe. But not every guy responds to yelling & angry rants though. 

On October 3, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Mr Coffee said:

While I agree that Pagano is a poor head coach, I also wonder if we really know how good of a DC he really was also.   He had two former DPOYs (Ed Reed and Ray Lewis) when he was DC for Baltimore.  That Baltimore defense was STACKED.  

You could be onto something there MC. Ed Reed & Ray Lewis disciplined themselves internally & were defensive coaches themselves on the field. Translation: Reed & Lewis knew their personnel better than Pags did in terms of IQ, film study, & execution. 

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On 10/4/2016 at 9:23 PM, Superman said:

 

Do you watch other teams?

 

A lot. The Giants are starting Landon Collins. I think Geathers is better. Langford is less than 100%, but his play last year was starter quality. Gore would be in a timeshare, which he should be here also, but he'd get plenty of reps. Walden is a 3-4 guy, but he's playing as well as several 3-4 Sam backers in the league. Everybody celebrated the Pats signing Jabaal Sheard because he had 8 sacks last year; Walden has 4 through 4 games, on a team with bad pass rush.

 

Allen is a good TE, and not a lot of teams have good TEs. Yes, he's not playing well right now, but I don't agree with the bearish outlook on him. Replace him with Doyle, who is playing very well, definitely at a starter level. 

 

We agree on a lot of other players, I'm sure. The CB position is a mess, ILB and OLB are awful, OL is all about young players (who I like for the most part, but still young) and an underperforming $10m/year LT, nothing at RB... Worst yet, no real playmakers on defense -- I like Geathers and Green, but let's see how they turn out. The roster isn't pretty, and Grigson has to own that because it's entirely his roster. Even if we agreed on all these middling guys, there are still no playmakers, and missing on Werner and Richardson, and misusing FA money in 2013 and 2015 is to blame for that. Even watching Jerry Hughes get a "meh" sack on Sunday was disappointing... 

Building on some of the conversation you've been having....the only area of roster building and the way it was done this past off-season that seems could be objectively criticized is at ILB. We went from competent to something less than that at a position where compentence isn't hard to find in the league...even if playmaking is.

 

OLB was never going to get fixed last year once we got past the first 2 rounds and you could argue that available value in the draft matched up very poorly with our draft position for pass rush.  Long term value of Kelly and TJ Green looks much better to me than any available EDGE prospects.

 

I'm of the opinion that the whole strategy for ILB during the off-season fell apart (pure speculation) when Pagano and Grigson met to set the blueprint for that position.  They decided that as long as DQ was in place, they had a vet who could produce competence alongside whomever they partnered him with, whether that was Moore, Irving or a rookie.  They simply overvalued DQ and failed to account for the way that DQ and Freeman complemented each other to mask their individual deficiencies.  DQ has to have someone solid in space playing next to him, and Freeman is certainly that.  It was plausible that Moore could provide the same - he certainly has the tools - so we can understand the thought process, but the dropoff was greater than anticipated.

 

The real head scratcher comes in Morrison.  I'm not usually very critical of how a 4th round pick gets spent - its a crapshoot anyway - but there is nothing about that pick which suggests that the shared vision of Pagano/Grigson is headed down the path of modern football in a productive way.  There probably wasn't a better ILB to pick in the 4th, none that I wanted anyway, but that is hardly the point.

 

It would have been easy to retain Freeman on a 4 year deal that plays like 2, even at a discount to what DQ is making.  I was shocked we didn't roll that way then and still am.  That decision along with the drafting of Morrison is the first time I've become seriously concerned about the roster building partnership of how Pagano and Grigson shop for, select and cook up the groceries.

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On October 5, 2016 at 0:16 AM, The Old Crow said:

 

It is true Grigson has picked a few gems, but he has had many free agent busts and failed to put a complete team around Luck. He may be better suited for a scouting or player evaluation role, rather than the more multi- faceted GM role. 

A lot of fans around here would probably cosign that statement TOC. It is a dicey proposition when an owner hires a guy [Ryan Grigson] with no real GM or assist GM experience. Then, there's the flip side to that dilemma. Where's a person supposed to acquire that experience if they are never given a shot to prove that they can do it? Plus, if a guy has GM in his job title working for another franchise, he's gonna be more expensive to hire & award a higher salary to then a guy with zero GM experience on his resume. 

 

I respect Grigs for clearing our dead space cap money on the books when Ryan 1st got here in 2012, but I don't know how long of a cushion he gets for doing that in 2016 & beyond though. Grigs does look at a ton of college football tape & even though Trent Richardson was a total failure on the FA front. Remember, Jimmy gave Grigs the green light to relinquish a 1st round draft pick for him at the time the deal was made with Cleveland too. 

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46 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Why you don't understand that we don't have a talented roster and have rarely had a talented roster under this new regime is beyond me.

 

It's probably been the number one issue since Grigson/Pagano/Luck arrived.      The lack of talent around Luck.

 

And somehow,  instead of understanding that we have a lack of talent, you come up with....

 

"We have a culture problem"
 

I don't know where you got that we have the shortest practices in the NFL,  in 4 and a half years on this website,  that's the first time I've ever read that here.

 

And considering we've been badly hit by injuries ever year,  that may account for the issue if it's indeed true.

 

The no tenacity, flat and looks uninspired is the result of a lack of talent.     We're struggling to do the things we want to do.      That's why the team looks bad.

 

You're a frustrated fan and you're reaching for answers.     The answers are right in front of you and you're not seeing them.       That's what frustrated fans do....   they reach for answers.

 

It's not hard at all to refute most everything you have to say.       But, it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

 

 

 

Exactly, we are struggling to do what we "want" to do, why won't they wake up and try something different? every week we try to establish the run, right off the bat, and look where it's gotten us?

 

To say this is entirely talent based is at best farfetched, and most would say not in the scope of reality.

 

Why are we a 2nd half team? If we straight lacked talent why wouldn't we just be bad for all 4 quarters instead of 2 or 3?

 

You're a frustrated fan and you're reaching for answers. The answers are right in front of you and you're not seeing them. That's what frustrated fans do....they reach for answers.

 

It's not hard at all to refute most everything you have to say; But it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

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46 minutes ago, SilentHill said:

Why are we a 2nd half team? If we straight lacked talent why wouldn't we just be bad for all 4 quarters instead of 2 or 3?

This is a great point SH. One that even frustrates me immensely too...As in, why in the world does it take INDY so long before our offense comes alive? 

 

I wish I could solve this mystery because I see this pattern week after week & like you I want the lack of rhythm to stop ASAP or at least click faster. 

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1 hour ago, ztboiler said:

Building on some of the conversation you've been having....the only area of roster building and the way it was done this past off-season that seems could be objectively criticized is at ILB. We went from competent to something less than that at a position where compentence isn't hard to find in the league...even if playmaking is.

 

OLB was never going to get fixed last year once we got past the first 2 rounds and you could argue that available value in the draft matched up very poorly with our draft position for pass rush.  Long term value of Kelly and TJ Green looks much better to me than any available EDGE prospects.

 

I'm of the opinion that the whole strategy for ILB during the off-season fell apart (pure speculation) when Pagano and Grigson met to set the blueprint for that position.  They decided that as long as DQ was in place, they had a vet who could produce competence alongside whomever they partnered him with, whether that was Moore, Irving or a rookie.  They simply overvalued DQ and failed to account for the way that DQ and Freeman complemented each other to mask their individual deficiencies.  DQ has to have someone solid in space playing next to him, and Freeman is certainly that.  It was plausible that Moore could provide the same - he certainly has the tools - so we can understand the thought process, but the dropoff was greater than anticipated.

 

The real head scratcher comes in Morrison.  I'm not usually very critical of how a 4th round pick gets spent - its a crapshoot anyway - but there is nothing about that pick which suggests that the shared vision of Pagano/Grigson is headed down the path of modern football in a productive way.  There probably wasn't a better ILB to pick in the 4th, none that I wanted anyway, but that is hardly the point.

 

It would have been easy to retain Freeman on a 4 year deal that plays like 2, even at a discount to what DQ is making.  I was shocked we didn't roll that way then and still am.  That decision along with the drafting of Morrison is the first time I've become seriously concerned about the roster building partnership of how Pagano and Grigson shop for, select and cook up the groceries.

The Funny Thing is they are talking about expanding Morrisons role.  How in the heck do you do that?  Maybe they are talking about more blitzing.  I don't know, but  I hope they aren't talking about leaving him in coverage more!

 

Monachino: Growing Morrison's role. Have to find ways to elevate E. Jackson and continue to grow McNary. #Colts

— George Bremer (@gmbremer) Oct 06, 2016

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4 hours ago, ÅÐØNϧ 1 said:

 

Image result for memes of funny executions   

Henry VIII is a bit extreme, but I did get a kick out of the historical humor though Adonis1. 

 

No one is calling for spousal harm of either Pagano or Grigson's wives here. However, I get your larger point: Pink slips for Chuck & Grigson. I did find the divorce joke clever as a next level anecdote though. 

 

http://www.hrp.org.uk/discover-the-palaces/monarchs/henry-viii/henry-viiis-wives/#gs.O9eF204

 

Nothing personal against either the HC or GM BTW. Hard to fix a glaring problem; easy to condemn & criticize. 

 

All INDY needs to to deploy the "Let them eat cake" or Guillotine formation to slice thru or competition right? I kid; I kid. 

 

If clicking on a link isn't your thing, then watch this video which gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "clearing the decks". Okay, I'm done now. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, SilentHill said:

 

Exactly, we are struggling to do what we "want" to do, why won't they wake up and try something different? every week we try to establish the run, right off the bat, and look where it's gotten us?

 

To say this is entirely talent based is at best farfetched, and most would say not in the scope of reality.

 

Why are we a 2nd half team? If we straight lacked talent why wouldn't we just be bad for all 4 quarters instead of 2 or 3?

 

You're a frustrated fan and you're reaching for answers. The answers are right in front of you and you're not seeing them. That's what frustrated fans do....they reach for answers.

 

It's not hard at all to refute most everything you have to say; But it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

 

 

OK......   if you don't want to be taken seriously....   that's fine.      That's your choice.

 

I tried my best.

 

You can lead a horse to water,  but you can't make him drink....

 

Oh well......       good luck to you.

 

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Just now, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

OK......   if you don't want to be taken seriously....   that's fine.      That's your choice.

 

I tried my best.

 

You can lead a horse to water,  but you can't make him drink....

 

Oh well......       good luck to you.

 

 

OK. if you don't want to be taken seriously, that's fine and that's your choice.

I tried my best. You can lead a horse to water,  but you can't make him drink.

Oh well. Good luck to you as well..

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2 hours ago, SilentHill said:

 

OK. if you don't want to be taken seriously, that's fine and that's your choice.

I tried my best. You can lead a horse to water,  but you can't make him drink.

Oh well. Good luck to you as well..

Seriously?  Not my fight, but I'm hearing  grade school playground sound effects in the background.

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