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jmv ... Payton is who Indy wants...

John Dee

By John Dee
in Colts Football

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BOTT Walk On

BOTT

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Except that his complete resume says he is.

 

It's just your opinion (no facts) that says he's not.     You and all the other haters around here....   

What about Pep's resume sticks out?

 

I'm sorry I couldn't counter those facts you brought to the table.  "We rank high, we good".

 

just because I disagree with you doesn't make me a hater.

 

 

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Dustin Walk On

Dustin

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, Restored said:

 

Owner > GM > HC

 

That hierarchy isn't too different from what you'd get in a normal business setting. But I'm not here to give you a business 101 course, I'm sure your local community college offers plenty of them.

 

Nice try

 

But in reality it's Owner > GM=HC.

 

The "do whateva the GM tells ya" is by people who really either don't understand the hierarchy or have very little self-respect.

 

 

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BOTT Walk On

BOTT

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Oh,  for Crying Out Loud,  you can NOT be serious!!

 

I'm pointing to expert opinion and you respond to me.

 

Other's here are only offering their OPINIONS with nothing to back it up and you say........  NOTHING!

 

Sorry,  this is not a serious post.

 

That old and tired strategy would work if those guys weren't wrong on a regular basis.

 

 

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Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

Nice try

 

But in reality it's Owner > GM=HC.

 

The "do whateva the GM tells ya" is by people who really either don't understand the hierarchy or have very little self-pride. 

 

 

 

Because Jim Caldwell and Bill Polian were on equal footing here in Indianapolis. As was Grigson with Pagano. People who don't understand this 3 level hierarchy are naive at best.

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Just now, Dustin said:

 

Yes they were. Pagano tells Grigson to show it and.....what? They gonna fire him mid-season in the playoff hunt?

 

 

It's happened before. Grigson clearly had more authority over Pagano. Hence Grigson butting into personnel and coaching decisions with very little pushback from Pagano.

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Dustin Walk On

Dustin

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Restored said:

 

It's happened before. Grigson clearly had more authority over Pagano. Hence Grigson butting into personnel and coaching decisions with very little pushback from Pagano.

 

Again, what happens if Pagano just tells him "no"? He obviously wouldn't fire him (because he can't, that would be Irsay's call). 

 

And this all hinges on whether or not Grigson was even overstepping his boundaries. If the triumvirate agreed to the power structure than I don't feel bad for Pagano, he knew what he was getting into. If Grigson made a power-play and overstepped his boundaries then Pagano should have told him to # off or just didn't do what he said. 

 

Obviously not pushing back didn't save his job. 

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Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Dustin said:
2 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

Again, what happens if Pagano just tells him "no"? He obviously wouldn't fire him (because he can't, that would be Irsay's call). 

 

And this all hinges on whether or not Grigson was even overstepping his boundaries. If the triumvirate agreed to the power structure than I don't feel bad for Pagano, he knew what he was getting into. If Grigson made a power-play and overstepped his boundaries then Pagano should have told him to # off or just didn't do what he said. 

 

Obviously not pushing back didn't save his job. 

 

 

Actually, he could fire him since he's Pagano's direct boss. Irsay oversees both of them. How is it that hard to understand?

 

We don't know if Pagano actually fought back behind close doors or if these were the original terms. What we do know is there was 1.5 million reports of internal strife between him and Grigson, specifically with coaching staff (Hamilton) and players getting disciplined and/or playing.

 

You're trying to point out pieces in the puzzle like there's still some of them missing when it's already been solved.

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OffensivelyPC Active Roster

OffensivelyPC

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Restored said:

 

 

Actually, he could fire him since he's Pagano's direct boss. Irsay oversees both of them. How is it that hard to understand?

Irsay hired him, not Grigson.  Grigson could not fire Pagano without Irsay's approval, if he could fire him at all.  In reality, it's Irsay's decision and Grigson would just be the messenger.

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3 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Irsay hired him, not Grigson.  Grigson could not fire Pagano without Irsay's approval, if he could fire him at all.  In reality, it's Irsay's decision and Grigson would just be the messenger.

 

If Grigson felt that Pagano was the problem with the team, he'd take it to his boss and get the stamp of approval to fire him. Pagano couldn't fire Grigson which has been my whole point about this hierarchy since the beginning. Irsay is more involved than he was previously but his rule of thumb has been to let both his GM and HC run their respective areas. 

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Dustin Walk On

Dustin

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Posted
1 minute ago, Restored said:

 

Your example is the exception to the rule and my statement was by no means meant to be a blanket one.

 

The fact that there are even a few "exceptions" applicable pretty much disproves your theory of "Owner > GM > HC" (maybe you didn't mean it as a blanket statement, that's how it came across).

 

I will concede that a lot of NFL teams run by the structure you outlined (though that's mainly around teams that have longer tenured GMs than HCs, thus more familiarity with the team and closer relationship to the owner), but organizations with shortly tenured HCs and GMs (and arrive to the team at the same time) usually share the power between the organization with clear outlines in the power-structure. 

 

 

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Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

The fact that there are even a few "exceptions" applicable pretty much disproves your theory of "Owner > GM > HC" (maybe you didn't mean it as a blanket statement, that's how it came across).

 

I will concede that a lot of NFL teams run by the structure you outlined (though that's mainly around teams that have longer tenured GMs than HCs, thus more familiarity with the team and closer relationship to the owner), but organizations with shortly tenured HCs and GMs (and arrive to the team at the same time) usually share the power between the organization with clear outlines in the power-structure. 

 

 

 

It's not a theory if there are a number of teams (majority of them actually) that operate under this type of model. You have a few that operate with the owner acting as GM (Cowboys to name one). Other's let the HC act as the final sayer in personnel choices (Bellichek, Carroll).

 

That may be the case but I don't believe it to be the case here with the Colts. I think Grigson clearly had more power than Pagano which is why Pep was forced to directly report to Grigson and why Richardson started way longer than he should have (according to Kravitz and other reporters).

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RockThatBlue Practice Squad

RockThatBlue

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, pgt_rob said:

 

lol Djoun Smith was a bad pick but Coby Fleener and Jack Mewhort weren't bad picks. We can get better talent at #2 than Djoun Smith next time.

I wouldn't call DJoun a bad pick yet. He barely played enough this year to know. And when he was healthy the staff never played him. 

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luv_pony_express Team Captain

luv_pony_express

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Mr Clueless said:

I think they are. There is a lot of talk about 49'ers besides Colts. I don't think he will end up in Indy though. 

 

Clearly, the Saints are interested in seeing what they can get for Sean Payton.  Too much smoke for there to be no fire.  I guess the question comes down to what they can get for him.

 

I think Payton's a really good coach, myself.  But I'm not sure he's worth a high draft pick -- particularly for any team that has rebuilding to do.

 

Most of the names mentioned for the Colts job (assuming Pagano is gone, that is) are established names:  Shanahan, Gruden, and Payton.  Personally, I don't see Gruden getting back into coaching.  I think Payton ends up at the 49ers.  And I think Shanny ends up in Miami.

 

Of course, my first choice would be Harbaugh.  But I doubt he'd leave his alma mater after just one season.  I think the Niners were nuts to get rid of him.

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DougDew Ring of Honor

DougDew

Posted
Posted

In the whole Grigson/Pagano saga...what people don't realize is that a GM telling a HC to start TRich and the HC not fighting back hard enough is not grounds for firing either one. 

 

It simply is not that big enough of a deal compared to other decisions they have to make.  Other decisions are the criteria with which to judge job performance.

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Dustin Walk On

Dustin

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, bababooey said:

Rapaport reporting Payton is strongly looking at the Giants situation. The longstanding rumor is that Cowher has been waiting for the Giants opening for years.

 

Bring me the one they call Hue Jackson. Or Josh McDaniels. 

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OffensivelyPC

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Restored said:

 

If Grigson felt that Pagano was the problem with the team, he'd take it to his boss and get the stamp of approval to fire him. Pagano couldn't fire Grigson which has been my whole point about this hierarchy since the beginning. Irsay is more involved than he was previously but his rule of thumb has been to let both his GM and HC run their respective areas. 

Right, but Pagano could just as easily go to Irsay about Grigson and get Grigson fired.  Who the messenger is is irrelevant.  If neither guy could fire the other without the owners approval, they are practically on the same level.  Just because one guy is dependent on the other for resources doesn't mean he has superior title.  In a similar vein, the GM depends on the HC and his staff to develop players.  They don't develop well, it reflects poorly on the GM.  

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