Your thoughts on our two brilliant Coaches Challenges?

[Jason_]

Yesterday's poor use of challenges is just another small example that we need a better overall coaching staff. Please note that I'm not saying we need wholesale changes, just a better staff. Small mistakes can often change the momentum in the game. Thankfully these coaching mistakes didn't cost us this game.

 

I do have a few questions though...

- What is Pagano record concerning challenges?

- How does it compare to league averages?

- What process do Colts use to critique coaching failures and how do they improve on this type of issue?

 

These would be great questions that someone from the local media could ask the coach or GM. Unfortunately our local media either asks soft questions or has journalists who would rather draw more attention to themselves.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/PagaCh0.htm

 

He was pretty good on challenges in 2013 and 2014...14 total challenges with 11 being overturned.  So far this year though doesn't look like he's won a single challenge.

[ColtsLegacy]

Don't be too sure. The Bills had 2 easy winnable challenges yesterday. They didn't throw the flag on either of them. I've seen it with other teams as well.

I can pretty much guarantee that every team has the best system possible that falls within any rules that may regulate what can and cannot be used (except the Pats *wink*). I didn't see the Bills plays you're speaking of, but it likely falls to human error (ie. the guys in the booth screwed up and/or Rex Ryan chose not to challenge).

[crazycolt1]

Much less a "human issue" with some teams.   If the call from upstairs is "DO NOT CHALLENGE", The human factor is removed.  

The head coach should not be worrying about if the ball hit the ground on a catch on the other side of the field.   If he hears a "CHALLENGE" in his headphones, he should challenge the call.  

I agree. But when the challenge does not work there will be those who point the finger at the coach when it is a decision that there is more than one person determining on the call. IF the call works out it was a great call by the coach. If it don't it is all blamed on the coach. There is 40 comments covering this but less comments on the win. Sad.

[Myles]

I can pretty much guarantee that every team has the best system possible that falls within any rules that may regulate what can and cannot be used (except the Pats *wink*). I didn't see the Bills plays you're speaking of, but it likely falls to human error (ie. the guys in the booth screwed up and/or Rex Ryan chose not to challenge).

That doesn't go along with what we see each week.   Some teams are very good and some are not.  

I find it hard to believe any head coach (even Rex Ryan) would decide not to challenge when the guys upstairs say "CHALLENGE".  

Heck, a good system would also have a percentage coming over the head set too.   "CHALLENGE 90%" OR "DON'T CHALLENGE 60%".   something TO HELP THE HEAD COACH.

 

From the Buffalo press:

It wasn't just unsuccessfully challenging plays that Ryan had an issue with Sunday. In addition to Maclin's catch, he also failed to challenge two more plays that would have been reversed in the Bills' favor. Chiefs quarterback Alex Smith was a full yard short of a first down on a third-and-12 scramble on the final play of the third quarter, with so much time passing between plays that TV viewers were tweeting pictures of where his elbow landed before the fourth quarter started.

Then, with 2:31 left in the game and the Bills down, 30-22, quarterback Tyrod Taylor appeared to complete a pass to Chris Hogan for a first down. Officials, however, ruled the pass incomplete – despite the Bills' receiver taking four steps after securing the ball.

The TV broadcast showed James Trapp, the team chaplain/assistant director of player engagement, telling Ryan "no, no, no," seemingly conveying the answer on whether the play should have been challenged.

Ryan said Monday that Trapp, who also serves as the Bills’ assistant director of player engagement, is "not in the process at all."

[Myles]

I agree. But when the challenge does not work there will be those who point the finger at the coach when it is a decision that there is more than one person determining on the call. IF the call works out it was a great call by the coach. If it don't it is all blamed on the coach. There is 40 comments covering this but less comments on the win. Sad.

That is true.   The Colts challenges didn't bother me much.   I veered the topic a little to include all these challenges or lack of challenges we see each week which lead me to believe some teams don't have as good a process in place as others.  

[ColtsLegacy]

That doesn't go along with what we see each week. Some teams are very good and some are not.

I find it hard to believe any head coach (even Rex Ryan) would decide not to challenge when the guys upstairs say "CHALLENGE".

Heck, a good system would also have a percentage coming over the head set too. "CHALLENGE 90%" OR "DON'T CHALLENGE 60%". something TO HELP THE HEAD COACH.

From the Buffalo press:

It wasn't just unsuccessfully challenging plays that Ryan had an issue with Sunday. In addition to Maclin's catch, he also failed to challenge two more plays that would have been reversed in the Bills' favor. Chiefs quarterback Alex Smith was a full yard short of a first down on a third-and-12 scramble on the final play of the third quarter, with so much time passing between plays that TV viewers were tweeting pictures of where his elbow landed before the fourth quarter started.

Then, with 2:31 left in the game and the Bills down, 30-22, quarterback Tyrod Taylor appeared to complete a pass to Chris Hogan for a first down. Officials, however, ruled the pass incomplete – despite the Bills' receiver taking four steps after securing the ball.

The TV broadcast showed James Trapp, the team chaplain/assistant director of player engagement, telling Ryan "no, no, no," seemingly conveying the answer on whether the play should have been challenged.

Ryan said Monday that Trapp, who also serves as the Bills’ assistant director of player engagement, is "not in the process at all."

The biggest cog in every teams replay system is human beings. So, it would make sense that there is a disparity in how good different teams are at challenges. Plus, there are the refs (human beings) who might see the play differently.

As for your excerpt on the Rex Ryan non-challenges; nothing from it suggests anything but human error. Hell, a guy who Rex Ryan confirmed wasn't even involved in the process was yelling "no, no, no" in regards to the one challengable play.

[Myles]

Hell, a guy who Rex Ryan confirmed wasn't even involved in the process was yelling "no, no, no" in regards to the one challengable play.

That is a problem with the system.   Who allows a guy on the sideline to yell "No, No, No at the head coach.  There is no way the upstairs guys told him not to challenge the play.   It was confirmed on the first replay that it was a bad call.   Either the upstairs guys are *s, they don't have the proper equipment, Rex doesn't listen to them or Rex doesn't trust them.  

[GoColts8818]

He's 13 for 26 in his career which is one of the higher % in the league. So while he missed a couple yesterday overall he's been good at using challenges.

[ColtsLegacy]

That is a problem with the system. Who allows a guy on the sideline to yell "No, No, No at the head coach. There is no way the upstairs guys told him not to challenge the play. It was confirmed on the first replay that it was a bad call. Either the upstairs guys are *s, they don't have the proper equipment, Rex doesn't listen to them or Rex doesn't trust them.

They have the proper equipment, so let's just remove that (and even if they don't it's their own negligence. Aka, human error). Everything else you described is human error: guys upstairs are *s, Rex doesn't listen/trust guys upstairs, guy who isn't involved in the challenge process yelling "no, no, no" at Rex. This doesn't mean the process is screwed up, it means humans make mistakes.

[Superman]

Yesterday's poor use of challenges is just another small example that we need a better overall coaching staff. Please note that I'm not saying we need wholesale changes, just a better staff. Small mistakes can often change the momentum in the game. Thankfully these coaching mistakes didn't cost us this game.

I do have a few questions though...

- What is Pagano record concerning challenges?

- How does it compare to league averages?

- What process do Colts use to critique coaching failures and how do they improve on this type of issue?

These would be great questions that someone from the local media could ask the coach or GM. Unfortunately our local media either asks soft questions or has journalists who would rather draw more attention to themselves.

Pagano is 13/26 on challenges, which is pretty good. Most coaches are below .500. Since 2012, Belichick is 4/13. What you can't figure are the plays he should have challenged, but didn't. Or the actual impact of the challenges that he's won. But just on the surface, his challenge record is good.

[cbear]

They both were questionable at best, but for me, they certainly did not taint in any way what I thought was a pretty solidly coached game.  One thing about the coaching is the decline in penalties recently.  

[Myles]

They have the proper equipment, so let's just remove that (and even if they don't it's their own negligence. Aka, human error). Everything else you described is human error: guys upstairs are *s, Rex doesn't listen/trust guys upstairs, guy who isn't involved in the challenge process yelling "no, no, no" at Rex. This doesn't mean the process is screwed up, it means humans make mistakes.

I disagree.   The process is the problem (not with the Colts).   If they do not have the equipment, that is part of the problem.   If the written SOP states to have the equipment, and they do not, then the process is not being followed.  If Rex doesn't trust the guys upstairs, that is also a flaw in the process.   He should have people he trusts up there.  

They should put the process in place to avoid human error.   

[ColtsLegacy]

I disagree. The process is the problem (not with the Colts). If they do not have the equipment, that is part of the problem. If the written SOP states to have the equipment, and they do not, then the process is not being followed. If Rex doesn't trust the guys upstairs, that is also a flaw in the process. He should have people he trusts up there.

They should put the process in place to avoid human error.

The process of challenging plays will never be perfect. You'll never be 100% correct in what you decide to challenge or not challenge (50% accuracy is considered good). And that's because of the human element. In all likelihood, every team has a nearly, if not exactly, identical system for how they challenge plays.

Again, they'll have their equipment. If they didn't have it, it's because some * screwed up and that * would be fired immediately. It wouldn't be a problem with the process. Something like having the equipment is about as basic as it gets.

If you'd like we can just agree to . . . agree I'm right and move on.

[Myles]

The process of challenging plays will never be perfect. You'll never be 100% correct in what you decide to challenge or not challenge (50% accuracy is considered good). And that's because of the human element. In all likelihood, every team has a nearly, if not exactly, identical system for how they challenge plays.

Again, they'll have their equipment. If they didn't have it, it's because some * screwed up and that * would be fired immediately. It wouldn't be a problem with the process. Something like having the equipment is about as basic as it gets.

If you'd like we can just agree to . . . agree I'm right and move on.

Ha ha, nice try. 

[Jim H.]

A failed challenge becomes a used timeout.  No worse than when the call is late coming in and a team has to waste a time out.  Stuffs happen.

[Turftoe]

The first one was bad because it was pretty clear we wouldn't win it, and it took away a timeout we might have been able to use on that final possession.

The second one shouldn't have been thrown, but Fox didn't show us the definitive replay until after the red flag came out.  If the coaches see the replays when we do, I can't blame them for that (although it seems that our player(s) should have known what really happened and could have related that to Pagano).

[ColtsLegacy]

Is there a thread to give feedback (complain) about this new board? The quoting system seems to not work. When you quote someone it just looks like part of your post. I'm using google chrome.

[Cynjin]

1 hour ago, ColtsLegacy said:

Is there a thread to give feedback (complain) about this new board? The quoting system seems to not work. When you quote someone it just looks like part of your post. I'm using google chrome.

Nadine has been taking questions/concerns about the new format.

 

It's in the Site Q&A section.

[ColtsLegacy]

2 hours ago, Cynjin said:

Nadine has been taking questions/concerns about the new format.

 

It's in the Site Q&A section.

 

Thanks. Quoting seems to work OK now, on my mobile at least.

(Still don't like the format at all. Seems like unnecessary change just to have change. Don't see any upgrades and mobile seems clunkier)

[antipatriot]

1. I thought they were really bad challenges in a different game that may have been very costly we need to do a better job on that front for sure.

[JPFolks]

On 11/30/2015, 10:59:51, crazycolt1 said:

It is a human factor. Mistakes are made. All of us can make a mistake when you are under pressure. We are sitting at home kicked back and watching TV. Easy calls for us. We don't have cameras on us. We don't have a head set on trying to listen what is said. We don't have a player in our face telling you he made the play. We are not trying to see the reply with all that going on. All within 15 seconds or so. These are judgment calls To make such a critical issue out of this is nit picking. The was one play the Colts got by with when it was challenged by Tampa of a non catch that was obvious not a catch. It didn't go their way. Yesterday was a good win. Played kind of sloppy in the first half but made some fantastic adjustments and come out and performed very well in the second half. Now we are debating over this? Like I said before a couple of other times, tough crowd.

Of course mistakes are made and everyone is human.  But our challenges overall for the past 4 seasons have been poor more often than great.  This is no different than if someone fumbled twice and we made a post to discuss it.  If going forward we just say "everyone is human and makes mistakes" then there won't be a lot to discuss.  

[JPFolks]

On 11/30/2015, 10:59:51, crazycolt1 said:

It is a human factor. Mistakes are made. All of us can make a mistake when you are under pressure. We are sitting at home kicked back and watching TV. Easy calls for us. We don't have cameras on us. We don't have a head set on trying to listen what is said. We don't have a player in our face telling you he made the play. We are not trying to see the reply with all that going on. All within 15 seconds or so. These are judgment calls To make such a critical issue out of this is nit picking. The was one play the Colts got by with when it was challenged by Tampa of a non catch that was obvious not a catch. It didn't go their way. Yesterday was a good win. Played kind of sloppy in the first half but made some fantastic adjustments and come out and performed very well in the second half. Now we are debating over this? Like I said before a couple of other times, tough crowd.

Of course mistakes are made and everyone is human.  But our challenges overall for the past 4 seasons have been poor more often than great.  This is no different than if someone fumbled twice and we made a post to discuss it.  If going forward we just say "everyone is human and makes mistakes" then there won't be a lot to discuss.  

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, JPFolks said:

Of course mistakes are made and everyone is human.  But our challenges overall for the past 4 seasons have been poor more often than great.  This is no different than if someone fumbled twice and we made a post to discuss it.  If going forward we just say "everyone is human and makes mistakes" then there won't be a lot to discuss.  

Maybe you should check the facts on Pagano's challenges over the last 4 season's just as you say. He is at 50% and that is a higher percentage that the NFL average. So like I said earlier, tough crowd and nit picking.

[Superman]

Just realized that 13/26 includes 2/7 in 2012, and those weren't all Pagano's challenges. Without going back to figure them out, just counting since 2013, Pagano is 11/19 on challenges. But he's 0/5 in 2015.

[MTC]

On 11/29/2015, 5:00:58, crazycolt1 said:

Most of those types of calls come from upstairs. Pointing the finger at just the coach is nit picking when it is not all on the coach. The coach has a headset with someone talking to him, he is trying to look at a replay and also he has the player saying he made the play. All in a few seconds. This is a tough crowd to please.

 

I still blame Pagano for both challenges. It's the coaches decision to follow the people upstairs and he had a good view of the replay before throwing both flags.

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, MTC said:

 

I still blame Pagano for both challenges. It's the coaches decision to follow the people upstairs and he had a good view of the replay before throwing both flags.

Of coarse you do. A great win. Great halftime adjustments. Matt started using all his weapons. The Colts dominated the 2nd. half but Pagano must face nit picking as a result from every game. Why this has become such an issue I have no clue. Pagano has an above average of winning these challenges but yet this? Out of all the good things that happened we have a pretty long thread that has passed anything positive. If this is all anyone can complain about then I think it is really nit picking at it's best.

[jskinnz]

What is amazing to me is that this silly topic and thread are still on the front page of the forum 4 days after the game.  Guess I just contributed to its longevity.

 

The stats show Pagano and the Colts are among the best in the league with their challenge winning percentage. It is also an inexact science from both team and procedural process - which again does not speak well for the thread.

[Iancolts]

This thread should be closed!  Doesn't matter we won the game be happy.  Can't nit pick at everything the coaches do.  Complain if we lose in the case we won so make threads that praise the coaches and player. YAGA!

[coltsva]

Everyone is focusing on the wrong aspect of challenging calls. Whether or not you have a good chance to win the challenge is only part of the equation. The key part is "will winning the challenge have a direct impact on the game or on momentum within the game?"

For instance, the Bucs made a good challenge with Bradshaw at the goal line. They lost what looked like a 50/50 challenge, but had they won, it would have given them the ball and kept it a one score game. Well worth the risk. 

The TY no catch challenge was a poor challenge as it would not even have given the Colts a first down. Do you really want to risk losing a challenge and a timeout for a 7 yard pass that does not result in a first down or touchdown? Very poor risk/reward, IMO. 

When on defense, challenge plays that if won:

1. result in a turnover
2. result in turning the ball over on downs
3. take away a 3rd down conversion or a 1st/2nd down and long conversion. 

When on offense, challenge plays that if won:

1. result in points
2. result in a critical 1st down 

Not saying these are the only situations, as timing in the game has an impact too, but it's a good starting point. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by 21isSuperman