Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

[southwest1]

I haven't read thru every page in this thread & I don't really want to either. Let's review shall we...

 

--Brady are you a cheater? I don't think so. 

 

--The Deflator username refers to weight loss. 

 

--Brady had 1 of the equipment managers up to his QB office to see how he was holding up & he's never been there before or after that landmark private session took place. 

 

--Since when does the League routinely notify players in advance of impending fines? They don't. What makes Brady so special in this regard here? Nothing. 

 

--The destruction of a personal cell phone is self explanatory to most reasonable people unless your a NE fan than anything goes in the name of a full pardon right? 

 

--The Wells report proved nothing regarding Brady's involvement. "More probable than not" doesn't require concrete proof just common sense & logical connections based on anyone older than age 12. 

 

--How do NE fans explain Brady's failure to cooperate? He's a 4 time SB Champion & ordinary rules don't apply to elite QBs ever. Denial not just a river in Egypt right VL?

 

--There was no urinal in the bathroom the Deflator disappeared with the balls into. If he wasn't performing #1, #2, what else was he doing? Entertaining himself? 

 

If you lose, what will you say then? " It's a witch hunt" right. LOL! 

[southwest1]

Slightly off topic but still kind of related: What's with Robert Kraft defiance now that it was a mistake to accept the fine & loss of draft picks as a franchise owner? So, you think your bigger & more important than 31 other teams now? I applauded you originally for taking the high road & understanding that your organization was a cog in a much bigger umbrella called the NFL shield & you claim that this course of action was a mistake why?

 

Were you expecting a break for your QB, didn't get it, & then secretly wished you never agreed to pay the fine? Kraft's position switch here is quite troubling because Robert basically shined on the other owners today & put his club above their's simply because he didn't get the result he was hoping for from Goodell.

 

And how come Bill Belichick chimed in on air pressure on NE footballs initially making "My Cousin Vinny" movie jokes but refuses to elaborate on the Commissioner's appeal decision that just came down yesterday? Oh no, you don't get to pick & choose what questions you will & will not respond to. You can't have it both ways Bill. Once you step into that ring, there are no time outs.   

 

So the QB, the HC, & the owner believe that rules & complying with other entities outside of Gillette Stadium don't apply to them at all? Good to know. Sad, but good to know. 

[bababooey]

I'm not the only one who realizes that outside of the circumstantial evidence (The Deflator, the psi levels, the balls going missing, the texts we know of, Brady destroying the phone) the actual evidence of what's on Brady's phone proving his guilt still exists right? So when I hear a dumb comment like "no evidence" you realize he is being punished for impeding the investigation and obstructing evidence. Heck, we haven't heard from the two dopes who got suspended for "doing nothing wrong" since The Deflator texts became apparent. Hope they go to court w Brady, you think they'll keep quiet in the face of a perjury charge over a football?

[schwamm]

Or how about the other side... These must be the facts we're ignoring:

Krapitz is making stuff up to make the Pats look bad.

It's probably DQ Jackson's fault.

The Colt's equipment manager probably did the deflating to frame the Pats.

Grigson must have some beef against the Pats for asking for a fair playing field.

The refs should have given the Pats notice that they shouldn't cheat in the AFCCG.

The cheaters would have won anyway

The weather unfairly affected the Pats balls differently than the Colts ones.

The refs clearly fumbled the use of needles.

It's the refs fault the the Deflator had time to take balls to the restroom.

The Deflator is actually trying to deflate himself.

"Preponderance of evidence" and "more probable than not" actually mean "not possibly true" in Boston

Goodell doesn't care about facts, he just wants to make the Pats look bad.

A handful of scientists in Boston (and BB) are more believable that the entirety of the rest of the world's scientific community.

Jim Irsay and the Ravens owner are just jealous.

Brady has a habit of destroying phones (especially the one where he has ample advanced notice that it might help exonerate him) on the day of his hearing.

Oh, and Bob Kraft is angry, so...

I'm sure I missed a few, but that is a ponderous list of facts to consider, to be sure.

[amfootball]

I've tried to stay away from this, with good reason...but this line and the popular sentiment about how the Patriots will now fumble a lot more stood out to me.

 

Why?

 

Because everyone is trying to make the case that since 2007 when teams were allowed to doctor footballs, the Patriots fumble rate was so low that it lends credibility to the affect of playing with a deflated football. But only the home team has the footballs before the game, right? McNally and Jastremski were only around when the games took place at Gillette...they didn't travel to away games. So looking back at the fumble numbers, shouldn't the Patriots have a heck of a lot more fumbles AWAY than they do at HOME?

 

I only ask this because when you DO look at the numbers, it's the exact opposite. It turns out they had a higher fumble rate AT Gillette Stadium than they did AWAY from Gillette Stadium, and this was true for every single season since 2005. So I don't know exactly why people are anxious to see the Patriots fumble numbers this coming season because the numbers from past seasons don't support their narrative. 

Yes and no one seems to ever mention Ridley the fumbling machine who was benched for fumbling because he does not fit the narrative either or the fact that the Pats put the ball on the ground THREE times in the division playoff game vs the Ravens this past post season while the Ravens put it on the ground zero.

 

Although, I have to say I will be amused by each and every thread that is started here every time the Pats do fumble this season. lol.

 

BTW, I know you don't visit Patriots Planet but their thread on this topic is at 11 pages. This one at 19 and still going ...

[SteelCityColt]

Yes and no one seems to ever mention Ridley the fumbling machine who was benched for fumbling because he does not fit the narrative either or the fact that the Pats put the ball on the ground THREE times in the division playoff game vs the Ravens this past post season while the Ravens put it on the ground zero.

 

Although, I have to say I will be amused by each and every thread that is started here every time the Pats do fumble this season. lol.

 

BTW, I know you don't visit Patriots Planet but their thread on this topic is at 11 pages. This one at 19 and still going ...

 

What you posted is narrative... an anecdotal recall that you offered as "proof" the Pats fumble in line with everyone else. 

 

Problem is the numbers speak for themselves, they are that far outside the mean they must be doing something that other teams aren't doing, legal or otherwise. Why it's so pertinent is the numbers jump right after the ball rules changed. It's a bit darn coincidental no? 

 

Although I'm sure you will ignore/deflect any evidence that is contrary to your viewpoint, you can't argue with the fumble numbers... they are factual:

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/the-new-england-patriots-mysteriously-became-fumble-proof-in-2007

 

Don't give me the crap about players being too scared to fumble, or the coaching being responsible, because of course no other coach has said to his guys.. "try not to fumble out there" or preached about ball security. It's even more interesting when you watch ex Pats fumble numbers jump through the roof again when they leave the Pats. 

 

Now you can argue how he's used those facts is not best analysis, in fact I'll save you some effort and offer up this piece:

http://regressing.deadspin.com/why-those-statistics-about-the-patriots-fumbles-are-mos-1681805710

 

But even this, less biased in your words no doubt, concludes the Pats are still outside the norm. That's not in doubt. What is questionable is the why.

[amfootball]

What you posted is narrative... an anecdotal recall that you offered as "proof" the Pats fumble in line with everyone else. 

 

Problem is the numbers speak for themselves, they are that far outside the mean they must be doing something that other teams aren't doing, legal or otherwise. Why it's so pertinent is the numbers jump right after the ball rules changed. It's a bit darn coincidental no? 

 

Although I'm sure you will ignore/deflect any evidence that is contrary to your viewpoint, you can't argue with the fumble numbers... they are factual:

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/the-new-england-patriots-mysteriously-became-fumble-proof-in-2007

 

Don't give me the crap about players being too scared to fumble, or the coaching being responsible, because of course no other coach has said to his guys.. "try not to fumble out there" or preached about ball security. It's even more interesting when you watch ex Pats fumble numbers jump through the roof again when they leave the Pats. 

Read Dynasty's post  that I quoted. The numbers do not support the narrative.

[Valpo2004]

Or how about the other side... These must be the facts we're ignoring:

Krapitz is making stuff up to make the Pats look bad.

It's probably DQ Jackson's fault.

The Colt's equipment manager probably did the deflating to frame the Pats.

Grigson must have some beef against the Pats for asking for a fair playing field.

The refs should have given the Pats notice that they shouldn't cheat in the AFCCG.

The cheaters would have won anyway

The weather unfairly affected the Pats balls differently than the Colts ones.

The refs clearly fumbled the use of needles.

It's the refs fault the the Deflator had time to take balls to the restroom.

The Deflator is actually trying to deflate himself.

"Preponderance of evidence" and "more probable than not" actually mean "not possibly true" in Boston

Goodell doesn't care about facts, he just wants to make the Pats look bad.

A handful of scientists in Boston (and BB) are more believable that the entirety of the rest of the world's scientific community.

Jim Irsay and the Ravens owner are just jealous.

Brady has a habit of destroying phones (especially the one where he has ample advanced notice that it might help exonerate him) on the day of his hearing.

Oh, and Bob Kraft is angry, so...

I'm sure I missed a few, but that is a ponderous list of facts to consider, to be sure.

 

Correction: Brady was starting a new habit of destroying his phones every four months starting with the one he had ample advanced notice that it might help exonerate him.

 

You also forgot:

 

It was a sting operation (Which is an acceptable excuse for doing anything wrong if the way you where caught was a sing operation.)

 

and 

 

The Colt's deflated the footballs

 

and

 

The NFL has it out for the most popular player on one of the most popular teams which in turn makes them millions every year.  Their just tired of all these millions of dollars.

 

 

 

 

 

Pat's fans arguments are becoming more and more delusional.  

[amfootball]

BTW, here is the official complaint sent by Keesler, all 54 pages, https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/PDFs/Media%20Resources/7.29.15%20petition%20to%20vacate.pdf

 

This basically eviscerates the league and everything the league put forth in its punishment statement. Wow. I can see why Keesler get ths respect he does.

[amfootball]

Here is a great nugget to chew on from the complaint.

 

Paragraph 111

Because the Competitive Integrity Policy has never been given to players, no player in NFL history has ever been disciplined---or even investigated-for violating this Policy, let alone for being generally aware of someone else's violation of this Policy. Rather, only Clubs and Club personnel have been subject to discipline under. For example, in 2009, the NFL suspended a member of the New York Jets equipment staff after he "attempted to use unapproved equipment to prep the K[icking] Balls prior to" a Jets game against the New England Patriots. NFLPA Ex.209 at l. According to the NFL in imposing the discipline, the equipment personnel's"attempt to use unapproved materials to prep the Kicking] Balls could [have] easily be[en] interpreted as an attempt to gain a competitive advantage." 1d. However, the Jets' kicker-the player who could have benefited from the alleged attempt to gain a competitive advantage" (id.)-was not investigated, let alone disciplined. tlr'g Tr. 25A:7-12 (Vincent). This was perfectly consistent with the Competitive Integrity Policy's application to Clubs, not players, as well as the fact that even if the Jets kicker was "generally aware" of the infraction, general awareness is not a basis for discipline.
 

[bluebombers87]

Yes and no one seems to ever mention Ridley the fumbling machine who was benched for fumbling because he does not fit the narrative either or the fact that the Pats put the ball on the ground THREE times in the division playoff game vs the Ravens this past post season while the Ravens put it on the ground zero.

Although, I have to say I will be amused by each and every thread that is started here every time the Pats do fumble this season. lol.

BTW, I know you don't visit Patriots Planet but their thread on this topic is at 11 pages. This one at 19 and still going ...

Actually last count with all the Brady is a lying cheater threads on PP its around 60 pages worth of threads, give or take. But I know you won't acknowledge a silly little thing called facts.

[amfootball]

Actually last count with all the Brady is a lying cheater threads on PP its around 60 pages worth of threads, give or take. But I know you won't acknowledge a silly little thing called facts.

Sure, I will acknowledge that. But this site has easily had close to 500 if not more pages on the same topics since Jan ...

[csmopar]

I've tried to stay away from this, with good reason...but this line and the popular sentiment about how the Patriots will now fumble a lot more stood out to me.

 

Why?

 

Because everyone is trying to make the case that since 2007 when teams were allowed to doctor footballs, the Patriots fumble rate was so low that it lends credibility to the affect of playing with a deflated football. But only the home team has the footballs before the game, right? McNally and Jastremski were only around when the games took place at Gillette...they didn't travel to away games. So looking back at the fumble numbers, shouldn't the Patriots have a heck of a lot more fumbles AWAY than they do at HOME?

 

I only ask this because when you DO look at the numbers, it's the exact opposite. It turns out they had a higher fumble rate AT Gillette Stadium than they did AWAY from Gillette Stadium, and this was true for every single season since 2005. So I don't know exactly why people are anxious to see the Patriots fumble numbers this coming season because the numbers from past seasons don't support their narrative. 

 

 

No. The home team and the away team each get to use their own balls... hints the colts balls being tested and being okay.

[bluebombers87]

Sure, I will acknowledge that. But this site has easily had close to 500 if not more pages on the same topics since Jan ...

Why would I believe you when you were so grossly wrong about your initial claim?

This has no bearing on the the thread so I ask you please steer the convo back to the original topic.

[SteelCityColt]

Read Dynasty's post  that I quoted. The numbers do not support the narrative.

 

Do you even understand what you are saying? 

 

So at home they have a fumble rate that is an statistical outlier... it's outside the normal variation. Them fumbling on the road less than at home doesn't make this go away, it raises more questions. 

 

If you read my post properly I was specifically tying this to ball manipulation, but if you want to go down that road.. they still get to use the balls they have prepared beforehand on the road. The only difference might be getting access to them before as easily, but if anything this whole has shown that Pat's employees will disregard the ball custody rules anyway. 

[csmopar]

More evidence that Goodell is the liar.

Quote:

“They never asked for the actual device. Ted Wells, in his May 12 press conference actually said that -- he emphasized that. They didn’t want the actual device........They knew going into the March 6 hearing that they were not going to get the actual device. They knew that.

So you're taking the word of an organization busted for cheating multiple times as evidence....wow, patriots fans really are blind...

[lollygagger8]

Read the NFLPA doc that I linked earlier.

It.

Is.

Outstanding .

Oh, and blows away, clear and simply, anything released by Goodell and Co.

Oh, and this will take place in Minny. Kessell associated this with the Peterson case (which is going to kill Goodell, since he's insisting that they are unrelated), and therefore it will have precedence over what the NFL did in NY.

 

 

 

Except no proof has been demonstrated that Brady did anything wrong. Let's not let silly little facts like that get in the way .

 

 

LOL, Keep up the great work pal!  

[amfootball]

Read the NFLPA doc that I linked earlier.

It.

Is.

Outstanding .

Oh, and blows away, clear and simply, anything released by Goodell and Co.

Oh, and this will take place in Minny. Kessell associated this with the Peterson case (which is going to kill Goodell, since he's insisting that they are unrelated), and therefore it will have precedence over what the NFL did in NY.

I just posted to the link to it. It is in a word - brilliant. So much for all those "legal analysts" saying Peterson would not be tied in. He is big time and will allow this thing to get settled in Minny as you say. There is also talk that the judge assigned may rescue himself and hand over to Doty given Doty is the one with the prior experience.

[crazycolt1]

Sure, I will acknowledge that. But this site has easily had close to 500 if not more pages on the same topics since Jan ...

And how many of those 500 pages have you been in?

[amfootball]

And how many of those 500 pages have you been in?

Most of them as they are about MY team.

[Yehoodi]

I just posted to the link to it. It is in a word - brilliant. So much for all those "legal analysts" saying Peterson would not be tied in. He is big time and will allow this thing to get settled in Minny as you say. There is also talk that the judge assigned may rescue himself and hand over to Doty given Doty is the one with the prior experience.

 

Yes I have given the NFLPA compliant a quick read and find if very compelling.  It will be interesting to see if Judge Doty sits on the case as he has experience on the matter and would be a good idea.  However, even if he doesn't the Peterson case is binding on that court so any judge that sits on the case will have to rule in line with the findings of the Peterson case.

 

Given my reading of the NFLPA complaint and its citations to the CBA and other pertinent documents that control the relationship between the league and its players I am not sure if the NFL's suspension will hold up.  Perhaps a fine may have held up, but not so sure that a suspension will hold up.

[dynasty13]

Um they did not lose a fumble at home last year. Second or third time this has happened in the history of the game but ran about 200 extra offensive plays than the other two teams which is pretty incredible. I'm on the beach right now or I'd link the article which I did about ten times back in January. (The sharp analysis).

 

 

Who cares if they lost a fumble or not, the question is whether or not they fumbled period. It is completely irrelevant which team jumps on the loose ball after the fact, my point was that the numbers of fumbles at home vs fumbles away do not support the narrative that many are putting out there.

 

I'm not saying this proves or disproves anything, I'm simply saying that I find it interesting that many can't wait to point to future fumble rates as some sort of justification for their argument when past fumble rates do nothing to support that claim. McNally does not travel with the team...so one would assume that the fumble rates would be higher at away games than at home games...but in reality, the opposite is true.

[Yehoodi]

I'm pretty sure the lawyers for the NFL aren't just trying some crazy unprecedented legal maneuver, hoping the judge will set some kind of precedent. It's more likely, if the NFLPA does sue in a different state, that court will wait on the court in New York.

 

We will have to wait and see.  As one can not suit oneself in court, not sure what the NFL did is something that can be done at this point in the relationship between the parties.   Time will tell. 

[crazycolt1]

Most of them as they are about MY team.

It couldn't be your obsession could it? Fact is when someone is so obsessed with something it clouds their brain with reality. Standard medical fact.

[Yehoodi]

Holy crap you are reaching.  You can't possibly believe any of this, right?

 

I am not reaching for anything.  A person can not sue oneself in court.  And as I mention to Rison in my last post, not sure if what the NFL is doing is something a party can do at this point in the relationship of the parties. 

[amfootball]

Yes I have given the NFLPA compliant a quick read and find if very compelling.  It will be interesting to see if Judge Doty sits on the case as he has experience on the matter and would be a good idea.  However, even if he doesn't the Peterson case is binding on that court so any judge that sits on the case will have to rule in line with the findings of the Peterson case.

 

Given my reading of the NFLPA complaint and its citations to the CBA and other pertinent documents that control the relationship between the league and its players I am not sure if the NFL's suspension will hold up.  Perhaps a fine may have held up, but not so sure that a suspension will hold up.

Yeah, it was a blow by blow doc to get this thing tossed. Did you read the part about where the Wells report was edited by Pash, the NFL's General Counsel, before its public release???? Good heavens. Sure it was independent.

 

[Swan Ronson]

Words like proof and evidence are being thrown around willy nilly here.

[Yehoodi]

Yeah, it was a blow by blow doc to get this thing tossed. Did you read the part about where the Wells report was edited by Pash, the NFL's General Counsel, before its public release???? Good heavens. Sure it was independent.

 

 

Yah I read most of the petition last night, although it was late  .  There are a lot of good nuggets in the petition and is likely why the NFL ran to the NY Federal Court as the MN Federal Court case is not binding.    But yah I find it funny that a person receiving an independent report found the need to edit the report.

 

Bottom line with regard to the suspension portion of this mess, if the NFL had nothing to fear and felt that it acted properly it would have no problem letting the NFLPA file in MN.   The portions of the CBA cited in the petition seem pretty clear to me as to the relationship between the NFL and the players and whether or not the instant case is one that a suspension can be imposed as opposed to just a fine.  

[Yehoodi]

Words like proof and evidence are being thrown around willy nilly here.

 

Kind of makes you feel like you are reading the Wells Report does it?  . 

[Gramz]

Yes and no one seems to ever mention Ridley the fumbling machine who was benched for fumbling because he does not fit the narrative either or the fact that the Pats put the ball on the ground THREE times in the division playoff game vs the Ravens this past post season while the Ravens put it on the ground zero.

 

Although, I have to say I will be amused by each and every thread that is started here every time the Pats do fumble this season. lol.

 

BTW, I know you don't visit Patriots Planet but their thread on this topic is at 11 pages. This one at 19 and still going ...

Well, no duh.  First, they have more than one thread dealing with the topic.  Also, they don't have anyone disagreeing with them.  It's basically a lot of Patriot fans agreeing with one another.  The thread on here wouldn't be as long either if it weren't for Patriot fans presenting an opposing POV.

[Gramz]

[Restored]

Yah I read most of the petition last night, although it was late  .  There are a lot of good nuggets in the petition and is likely why the NFL ran to the NY Federal Court as the MN Federal Court case is not binding.    But yah I find it funny that a person receiving an independent report found the need to edit the report.

 

Bottom line with regard to the suspension portion of this mess, if the NFL had nothing to fear and felt that it acted properly it would have no problem letting the NFLPA file in MN.   The portions of the CBA cited in the petition seem pretty clear to me as to the relationship between the NFL and the players and whether or not the instant case is one that a suspension can be imposed as opposed to just a fine.  

 

You have it backwards. The NFL felt it acted properly but took the permeative measure and filed in in NY knowing that the NFLPA would likely file in MN where favoritism for the NFLPA runs rampant. I hope we aren't ignoring facts here.

[Gramz]

[Nadine]

Well, no duh.  First, they have more than one thread dealing with the topic.  Also, they don't have anyone disagreeing with them.  It's basically a lot of Patriot fans agreeing with one another.  The thread on here wouldn't be as long either if it weren't for Patriot fans presenting an opposing POV.

exactly

[SteelCityColt]

 

 

 

Who cares if they lost a fumble or not, the question is whether or not they fumbled period. It is completely irrelevant which team jumps on the loose ball after the fact, my point was that the numbers of fumbles at home vs fumbles away do not support the narrative that many are putting out there.

 

I'm not saying this proves or disproves anything, I'm simply saying that I find it interesting that many can't wait to point to future fumble rates as some sort of justification for their argument when past fumble rates do nothing to support that claim. McNally does not travel with the team...so one would assume that the fumble rates would be higher at away games than at home games...but in reality, the opposite is true.

 

 

While you could rule out ball manipulation on that basis possibly, although I contend they are still using Tom Brady approved prepared Balls™ whether or not The Deflator travels with the team.

 

However what you don't address is that it's still a question to be answered as to why that Pats fumble numbers are way outside the norm, home and away and have been since 2007. It's a clear demarcation point which ties in with the ball rule changes. 

 

You know what, there could be a perfectly reasonable and above all legal root cause, but you'd also think other teams wouldn't be far behind. It's a game of catch up after all, one team does something to great success and other teams follow. 

 

Basically your dismissal was a little too glib I think. 

[dynasty13]

Well, no duh.  First, they have more than one thread dealing with the topic.  Also, they don't have anyone disagreeing with them.  It's basically a lot of Patriot fans agreeing with one another.  The thread on here wouldn't be as long either if it weren't for Patriot fans presenting an opposing POV.

 

I love when people say they are done responding to a topic...buuuuuuuuut when it comes down to it they just can't stay away ;)

[SteelCityColt]

Well, no duh.  First, they have more than one thread dealing with the topic.  Also, they don't have anyone disagreeing with them.  It's basically a lot of Patriot fans agreeing with one another.  The thread on here wouldn't be as long either if it weren't for Patriot fans presenting an opposing POV.

 

I take it as a backhanded compliment that they would rather spend their time on a Colts board... I guess we must do something right after all... 

[ztboiler]

The indignation by Bob Kraft and the Pats organization, and any questions it may stir up about the NFL's policies, completely ignores that the vast majority of NFL owners are very supportive of Goodell's actions.  There is no way that Goodell takes on Tom Brady in a vacuum.

 

It's very meaningful when you stop and think about it.  It's a quiet vote by the rest of the league that says "This is a bigger breach of integrity than it appears on the surface".

[Gramz]

I love when people say they are done responding to a topic...buuuuuuuuut when it comes down to it they just can't stay away ;)

I Was DONE, until it was pointed out to me that Viri *  called me out....  

[theanarchist]

This aggression will not stand man