Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

[bababooey]

Who cares if they lost a fumble or not, the question is whether or not they fumbled period. It is completely irrelevant which team jumps on the loose ball after the fact, my point was that the numbers of fumbles at home vs fumbles away do not support the narrative that many are putting out there.

I'm not saying this proves or disproves anything, I'm simply saying that I find it interesting that many can't wait to point to future fumble rates as some sort of justification for their argument when past fumble rates do nothing to support that claim. McNally does not travel with the team...so one would assume that the fumble rates would be higher at away games than at home games...but in reality, the opposite is true.

fair point on lost fumbles, but the fact they are less likely to fumble does help them in their outrageous record of no lost fumbles. In terms of pure fumbles, I already posted that WSJ article showing the fumble rates comparing Welker, BJGE, Blount, Amendola, Lafell, and one other I can't recall showing their fumble rate on the pats is half as much when they played for other teams. This can't be disputed.

[Nadine]

I love when people say they are done responding to a topic...buuuuuuuuut when it comes down to it they just can't stay away ;)

A lot of people trying to show restraint in here.  Which I appreciate.  Wish more people would voluntarily exit the topic

[ColtsBlueFL]

Yes I have given the NFLPA compliant a quick read and find if very compelling.  It will be interesting to see if Judge Doty sits on the case as he has experience on the matter and would be a good idea.  However, even if he doesn't the Peterson case is binding on that court so any judge that sits on the case will have to rule in line with the findings of the Peterson case.

 

Given my reading of the NFLPA complaint and its citations to the CBA and other pertinent documents that control the relationship between the league and its players I am not sure if the NFL's suspension will hold up.  Perhaps a fine may have held up, but not so sure that a suspension will hold up.

We will have to wait and see.  As one can not suit oneself in court, not sure what the NFL did is something that can be done at this point in the relationship between the parties.   Time will tell.

I believe the NFL filing first has given presumption of jurisdicition in NY. The NFLPA will have to ask the court in NY to file a motion to hold the NFL lawsuit in abeyance for any Minnesota proceedings to continue. Courts are very reluctant to do such, as far as I know. I guess we'll soon see.

[amfootball]

I believe the NFL filing first has given presumption of jurisdicition in NY. The NFLPA will have to ask the court in NY to file a motion to hold the NFL lawsuit in abeyance for any Minnesota proceedings to continue. Courts are very reluctant to do such, as far as I know. I guess we'll soon see.

That seems right to me. But the fact that the complaint cites the Peterson case as material to this one makes me believe it will end up in Minny and if I have to guess back in Doty's hands as he dealt with the previous case.

[dynasty13]

fair point on lost fumbles, but the fact they are less likely to fumble does help them in their outrageous record of no lost fumbles. In terms of pure fumbles, I already posted that WSJ article showing the fumble rates comparing Welker, BJGE, Blount, Amendola, Lafell, and one other I can't recall showing their fumble rate on the pats is half as much when they played for other teams. This can't be disputed.

 

And I wont disagree with you there...I was just making the point that for everyone who is 'waiting with bated breath' to see the Patriot's fumble rates next season as some sort of further proof of an advantage gained, you'd just think that the narrative would be a bit more supported by home and away fumble rates.

 

I can already guarantee you that the Patriots will fumble more next year simply by having Garoppolo as the quarterback for a quarter of the season. It's no different than how the Colts were in the top 4 for lowest fumble rates for the 6 years prior to when Andrew Luck took over at quarterback and in his first season he led the team in fumbles and that helped skew the numbers considerably as he adjusted to the NFL. I fully expect that to be the case for the Patriots next year with Garoppolo...I just hope people won't look at that and run to scream 'See! Told you! It was all the deflated football!" I just think that would be a disingenuous assessment. 

[amfootball]

Well, no duh.  First, they have more than one thread dealing with the topic.  Also, they don't have anyone disagreeing with them.  It's basically a lot of Patriot fans agreeing with one another.  The thread on here wouldn't be as long either if it weren't for Patriot fans presenting an opposing POV.

LOL. I take it you don't visit PP very often? There are plenty of rival fans that disagree ...

[pgt_rob]

What's going to happen when Brady loses in Court? Are we finally going to be done with it or are silly Pats fans going to continue to be fighting it? lol There's no where else to go after this.

[Gramz]

LOL. I take it you don't visit PP very often? There are plenty of rival fans that disagree ...

Why would I want to visit there..???   I have a home Forum I am happy with.

[amfootball]

Yah I read most of the petition last night, although it was late  .  There are a lot of good nuggets in the petition and is likely why the NFL ran to the NY Federal Court as the MN Federal Court case is not binding.    But yah I find it funny that a person receiving an independent report found the need to edit the report.

 

Bottom line with regard to the suspension portion of this mess, if the NFL had nothing to fear and felt that it acted properly it would have no problem letting the NFLPA file in MN.   The portions of the CBA cited in the petition seem pretty clear to me as to the relationship between the NFL and the players and whether or not the instant case is one that a suspension can be imposed as opposed to just a fine.  

In fairness though I get why the league filed in NY as the PA filed in MN for the same reason - a better outcome. That being said, the judge assigned in NY is liberal from what I have been reading so that favors Brady and the PA. Still, I believe it will ultimately stay in MN. Too much prior history there and the Peterson case.

[amfootball]

Why would I want to visit there..???   I have a home Forum I am happy with.

Then why make a claim about its content if you don't visit?

[pgt_rob]

Then why make a claim about its content if you don't visit?

 

Don't have to visit another forum to see other fans post about the topic. Even here there are other fans, OBVIOUSLY.

[Gramz]

Then why make a claim about its content if you don't visit?

Okay, you caught me....  I have visited, therefore I can make a claim.

 

However, a few visits were enough for me.

[bababooey]

@dkaplanSBJ: Big news, Minnesota judge has ordered this morning the NFLPA lawsuit over Brady b transferred to Manhattan, where the NFL first filed

Score another one for the NFL

[amfootball]

Okay, you caught me....  I have visited, therefore I can make a claim.

 

However, a few visits were enough for me.

You said there were not rival fans posting though. That is false.

[amfootball]

More like, "the pats win too much, let's even the playing field a bit."

[OffensivelyPC]

Not that it means much in the public view, but Jerry Jones came out in support of Goodell.  For all the media and NFLPA's flaunting the fact that "such a highly respected owner" in Kraft is supporting the NFLPA, probably the most well known and other vocal owner comes out in support of Goodell.  In reality, all the owners are highly respected.  But as amongst one another, each one only counts as one vote.  Kraft might be siding with the NFLPA and the NFLPA may be lauding it as proof of brady's innocence or that the current state of the league mandates change, but that's only 1 owner out of 32.  For the others remaining silent, there's a reason for it, and it's not because they necessarily support one side or the other.  In other words, that's 30 swing votes as to whether Goodell is handling Brady's situation correctly.

[ColtsBlueFL]

That seems right to me. But the fact that the complaint cites the Peterson case as material to this one makes me believe it will end up in Minny and if I have to guess back in Doty's hands as he dealt with the previous case.

That seems right to me. But the fact that the complaint cites the Peterson case as material to this one makes me believe it will end up in Minny and if I have to guess back in Doty's hands as he dealt with the previous case.

There is an issue with tying Adrian Peterson as well. The NFL appealed Doty's decision to overturn an arbitrators ruling. This based upn decisions handed down from the Supreme Court of the U.S. that district courts should not interfere with proceddings and rulings in arbitration casess.

*** NFLPA better have an extremely strong case that NFL was totally out of kilter. This is how the Supreme court of the United States feels about judges overturning an Arbitration case ruling-

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled 5 - 3 Thursday (June 2013) that courts can't overturn a class arbitration waiver simply becauseit would cost plaintiffs more to arbitrate the claim than they could possibly recover. Here, attorneys tell Law360 why this ruling is significant.Alden Atkins, Vinson & Elkins LLP "The Supreme Court is sending a strong message that courts should not interfere with arbitration agreements and arbitration decisions. The court held in [AT&T Mobility LLCv. Concepcion] and again today in [American Express Co. v. Italian Colors Restaurant] that parties can define for themselves the procedures for an arbitration, and those agreements should be upheld in the face of arguments challenging the fairness of neutral provisions. When combined with the recent [Oxford Health Plans LLC v. Sutter] decision, which upheld an arbitrator's questionable decision, the Supreme Court is telling lower courts not to interfere with the arbitration process."

This is a major reason I believe Goodell / NFL will ultimately prevail in their appeal over Judge Doty's decision overturning of Adrian Peterson's punishment by the league.

Harold Henderson was appointed arbiter, and the CBA totally allows for Goodell to do that. ***

Brady's case was in in house case, and Goodell was the Arbitrator for the case, and the CBA lawfully allows this. The legal battles to be fought are nasty now. And it is beyond the point for win-win. Now it is big win, huge loss territory. Which really leans loss-loss. No matter what happens now.

[OffensivelyPC]

More like, "the pats win too much, let's even the playing field a bit."

Careful, you're head's getting so big you just might float away.

[BullsColtsFan1]

Everyone needs to remember

Everything Will Be Okay

Everything will not be ok if Tommy Boy can't play come week one.  Haven't you read anything?  The world will probably end.

[amfootball]

There is an issue with tying Adrian Peterson as well. The NFL appealed Doty's decision to overturn an arbitrators ruling. This based upn decisions handed down from the Supreme Court of the U.S. that district courts should not interfere with proceddings and rulings in arbitration casess.

*** NFLPA better have an extremely strong case that NFL was totally out of kilter. This is how the Supreme court of the United States feels about judges overturning an Arbitration case ruling-

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled 5 - 3 Thursday (June 2013) that courts can't overturn a class arbitration waiver simply becauseit would cost plaintiffs more to arbitrate the claim than they could possibly recover. Here, attorneys tell Law360 why this ruling is significant.Alden Atkins, Vinson & Elkins LLP "The Supreme Court is sending a strong message that courts should not interfere with arbitration agreements and arbitration decisions. The court held in [AT&T Mobility LLCv. Concepcion] and again today in [American Express Co. v. Italian Colors Restaurant] that parties can define for themselves the procedures for an arbitration, and those agreements should be upheld in the face of arguments challenging the fairness of neutral provisions. When combined with the recent [Oxford Health Plans LLC v. Sutter] decision, which upheld an arbitrator's questionable decision, the Supreme Court is telling lower courts not to interfere with the arbitration process."

This is a major reason I believe Goodell / NFL will ultimately prevail in their appeal over Judge Doty's decision overturning of Adrian Peterson's punishment by the league.

Harold Henderson was appointed arbiter, and the CBA totally allows for Goodell to do that. ***

Brady's case was in in house case, and Goodell was the Arbitrator for the case, and the CBA lawfully allows this. The legal battles to be fought are nasty now. And it is beyond the point for win-win. Now it is big win, huge loss territory. Which really leans loss-loss. No matter what happens now.

It is all moot. The MN judged ruled that NY will hear the complaint. PA is expected to file suit to get it moved to MA.

[Yehoodi]

What you're not grasping is the difference.  I'll break it down:

 

First, you getting a tire iron and, hitting my right hand, damaging it and punching me in the face, this here is a CRIMINAL act.  That would be assault.  So one, you'd go to court, probably jail.  So then, me being the pianist and being out of work, I lost wages, I sue.  While the lawsuit would be a civil matter, it would be in a completely different court than what the league has here.  Because the suit is the result from the outcome of a CRIMINAL ACT.

 

You COULD NOT do what the NFL has done here, because we had no prior legal agreement in place.  The CBA is a legal binding contract, you and the person at the mailbox dont have one.  There fore you could not ask a federal court if your actions were justified.

 

So a better fitting scenario is this:

 

I own a business a tire business.  You are a contract employee. In the contract, it states you will follow our policies and rules and any violations may result in a punishment up to and including suspensions, fines and termination and that the business owner, has final say in the punishment.

 

In the workplace rules, we fill our tires with Nitrogen.  Well, I find out after say 15 years, that you have been filling them with compressed air.  So since you violated our policies, the store manager recommended we suspend you without pay for a week.  You get mad, you appeal it to me and tell me if I don't over turn your suspension, you'll sue me for violating our contract.  So I review your case, decide to uphold the recommendation for suspension and before you can sue me, I ask a labor court, of my choosing but one that does have juristiction because we have assets in that district, to review our punishment and make sure we followed the terms of the contract. 

 

Which is exactly what the NFL has done here.  

 

You are way over complicating the matter, my point was not that specific. 

 

My point was a simple one: Should a defendant be allowed to forum shop and choose the court which is going to hear the case? 

 

It does not matter what type of case that we are dealing with (contract, labor, pain and suffering, lost wages, etc), just that is a defendant allowed to take an action that can boot strap the case in a given court.

 

As we dealing with the federal courts with the Brady situation and that basically all the federal courts would have jurisdiction on the matter as the NFL has established minimum contacts in all circuits.    Therefore a case could be filed in anyone of the federal courts.  The NFLPA planned, and did, file in MN (8th Circuit) and the NFL filed in NY (2nd Circuit).   If the 2nd circuit is more friendly to a defendant in this type of matter than the 8th circuit is it fair for the defendant to try to start the case in the 2nd circuit?  That was my point.

 

I made a simple analogy to personalize the situation with the case between me and any person on this forum, as sometimes when you personalize a fact pattern one can have a better grasp of the situation, well relate to it more.  As above we are dealing with the federal court system and several available of those courts to the parties I made my analogy to include the federal courts system and more than one court available, therefore, like above, there is a choice between federal courts for parties.

 

The closest and most simply thing that I could think of was diversity jurisdiction, as that can involve citizens of two different states and if the damages claimed are more than the federal jurisdiction limit (presently still at $75,000), then the plaintiff can file a civil suit in federal court and two courts will have jurisdiction, the court were the cause of action occurred and court where the defendant lives, in our pianist example it would be 1st Circuit (where I, the defendant, lives - Massachusetts) and the 7th Circuit (where the cause of action occurred - Indiana).  So the plaintiff pianist can file a federal civil law suit in either the 1st or 7th circuit courts as the same has jurisdiction over the matter.

 

If you want to find a quick explanation of diversity jurisdiction you can find it here (they use a car accident and citizens of NY/NJ)

 

     http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/subject-matter-jurisdiction-state-federal-29884.html

 

 

So my point was a simple one, if I damage you and knowing that a case can be filed in either 1st or 7th circuits and know that the 1st circuit is friendlier to folks who damage others via an assault and battery than the 7th circuit, is it fair for me to get on a plane, run home and file paperwork in the 1st circuit knowing full well that you will be filing in the 7th circuit in a week?

 

btw the paperwork that would be filing, as I can not sue myself, would very likely be a petition for a Declaratory Judgment, which can be filed by any party in any type of case, so it would be open to me to file.

 

As for whether or not there may be a concurrent criminal case is not relevant to my question, nor anymore relevant that the person in the car accident example above could be charged for the criminal act of reckless driving or driving to endanger. 

 

My point is a very very simple one, if we are dealing with a civil legal dispute (regardless of what type it is, contact, labor, damages, etc) and more than one court has jurisdiction over the matter can the defendant be allowed to choose the venue?

 

If you go back and reread my original post #199, you will see I stated the above, and did not feel the need at the time to go into the great detail explaining the above as felt it was not necessary as the post spoke for itself and did not frankly wanted to spend the time to do so, but alas, I have to.

 

NOTE:  btw since my original post the only filing that I could think of that could be filed by a defendant in the case was the petition for a declaratory judgment, which I indicated in posts later in this thread.  However, it my opinion is that the timing for such filing has lapsed as declaratory judgment are to be filed before any damages have incurred by the aggrieved party.  So if that does not work we are back to my point in my post #199, what form does the defendant's filing take in the court of his choosing?  I am not sure.  Regardless we still have the question whether a defendant should be allowed to forum choose.

[ztboiler]

Not that it means much in the public view, but Jerry Jones came out in support of Goodell.  For all the media and NFLPA's flaunting the fact that "such a highly respected owner" in Kraft is supporting the NFLPA, probably the most well known and other vocal owner comes out in support of Goodell.  In reality, all the owners are highly respected.  But as amongst one another, each one only counts as one vote.  Kraft might be siding with the NFLPA and the NFLPA may be lauding it as proof of brady's innocence or that the current state of the league mandates change, but that's only 1 owner out of 32.  For the others remaining silent, there's a reason for it, and it's not because they necessarily support one side or the other.  In other words, that's 30 swing votes as to whether Goodell is handling Brady's situation correctly.

The other 30 owners aren't silent.  We are kidding ourselves if we don't think that Goodell got plenty of opinions off the record before upholding a suspension that would cost him his job if mishandled.

[Gramz]

You said there were not rival fans posting though. That is false.

I said the thread I read was basically just a bunch of Pats fans agreeing with each other.

There very well may be some rival fans in other threads, I really don't know or care.

To be clear, I really don't care to visit the PP again.

Now if we could get back to the topic at hand here. Brady's suspension will stand.

[amfootball]

I said the thread I read was basically just a bunch of Pats fans agreeing with each other.

There very well may be some rival fans in other threads, I really don't know or care.

To be clear, I really don't care to visit the PP again.

Now if we could get back to the topic at hand here. Brady's suspension will stand.

As someone who is a member of PP and visits every day. There are rival fans there every day. Some threads have more Pats as rival fans don't care as much about certain topics. Same as here but this forum by far takes the cake as far as Pats content even beating out PP at times.

[OffensivelyPC]

A lot of people trying to show restraint in here.  Which I appreciate.  Wish more people would voluntarily exit the topic

It's because all the passive aggression and the baiting.  It gets old.  There should be a weekly poll with everyone's name on a list, and if that person gets enough votes, they are suspended for the day.  That's how these forums should work.  

[OffensivelyPC]

The other 30 owners aren't silent.  We are kidding ourselves if we don't think that Goodell got plenty of opinions off the record before upholding a suspension that would cost him his job if mishandled.

Okay, I meant silent as far as the public is concerned...at least I haven't really seen anyone come out in full support of Goodell and how he's handled Brady.

[Nadine]

It's because all the passive aggression and the baiting.  It gets old.  There should be a weekly poll with everyone's name on a list, and if that person gets enough votes, they are suspended for the day.  That's how these forums should work.  

like being voted off the island? Should we have a ceremony?

[Nadine]

As someone who is a member of PP and visits every day. There are rival fans there every day. Some threads have more Pats as rival fans don't care as much about certain topics. Same as here but this forum by far takes the cake as far as Pats content even beating out PP at times.

I want cake

[ColtsBlueFL]

It is all moot. The MN judged ruled that NY will hear the complaint. PA is expected to file suit to get it moved to MA.

Courts are courts, and follow the rules of law. The NFL is going to press the Supreme court rulings on the matter, without question. in this case and the Adrian Peterson case.

[Gramz]

like being voted off the island? Should we have a ceremony?

If only.....

[bababooey]

like being voted off the island? Should we have a ceremony?

I'd be the guy that doesn't get a rose on the first night

[amfootball]

Not that it means much in the public view, but Jerry Jones came out in support of Goodell.  For all the media and NFLPA's flaunting the fact that "such a highly respected owner" in Kraft is supporting the NFLPA, probably the most well known and other vocal owner comes out in support of Goodell.  In reality, all the owners are highly respected.  But as amongst one another, each one only counts as one vote.  Kraft might be siding with the NFLPA and the NFLPA may be lauding it as proof of brady's innocence or that the current state of the league mandates change, but that's only 1 owner out of 32.  For the others remaining silent, there's a reason for it, and it's not because they necessarily support one side or the other.  In other words, that's 30 swing votes as to whether Goodell is handling Brady's situation correctly.

Right because as Kraft said this was NEVER about doing what was right or fair but appeasing Roger's ego and the other 31 owners ... a complete sham from day one.

[Nadine]

I'd be the guy that doesn't get a rose on the first night

isn't that the bachelorette?  hmm, maybe we need a rose emoticon

[amfootball]

I want cake

   

[SteelCityColt]

It's because all the passive aggression and the baiting.  It gets old.  There should be a weekly poll with everyone's name on a list, and if that person gets enough votes, they are suspended for the day.  That's how these forums should work.  

 

Can I vote for myself?

[ztboiler]

Right because as Kraft said this was NEVER about doing what was right or fair but appeasing Roger's ego and the other 31 owners ... a complete sham from day one.

Hero worship is a lot of fun....until our immortals fall from the lofty perch we placed them on and reveal themselves as merely human.

[amfootball]

Hero worship is a lot of fun....until our immortals fall from the lofty perch we placed them on and reveal themselves as merely human.

Goodness. Who on earth is talking about immortals or heroes? This is just football. A game. And the Pats are defending champs and 2015 season is finally here. Can't wait for the actual games ...

[jameszeigler834]

More like, "the pats win too much, let's even the playing field a bit."

no more like the pats break the rules too much and get away with it too much  so its time they say keep the playing field fair.

[Yehoodi]

You have it backwards. The NFL felt it acted properly but took the permeative measure and filed in in NY knowing that the NFLPA would likely file in MN where favoritism for the NFLPA runs rampant. I hope we aren't ignoring facts here.

 

What makes you say favoritism runs rampart in MN?

 

Did it ever occur to you that this circuit is following its opinion of labor laws?

[amfootball]

no more like the pats break the rules too much and get away with it too much  so its time they say keep the playing field fair.

Really? 2 violations in 8 years is too much? Pats are also among the least fined and penalized team in the NFL as well. But don't let the facts get in the way of a fabricated narrative. This is about parity. Has been from day one ...