Patriots being investigated for Deflating footballs.....(Mega Merge)

[Cynjin]

Funny, IMO, commercial parody regarding Deflatgate.

 

 

[The Old Crow]

Hi Colts fans,

I am a visitor from the real FANS of the Baltimore Ravens

Anyway, you guys got our guy Pags and have a great QB in Luck and we were pulling for you against the Patriots, I mean the Cheaters... Anyway, you guys got jobbed like we got jobbed and I wanted to share a little humor with you guys.

The first Ravens fan since Ravens804 other than me. Everyone wants to get in on the action.

[dynasty13]

The thing I've asked several times today with no response from any *'s fan is, if it doesn't give the team an advantage, why not follow protocol???

Every team tries to gain an edge everywhere they can, whether it's a mental edge, physical, or in this case, straddling the line of what's allowed...but who judges the amount that an advantage was actually gained? It seems to be a matter of opinion at this point...and for me, without saying cheating is ok because once again it seems I have to continually reiterate this...if I don't believe that a big advantage was really gained then why would I sit and willow about it?

[bababooey]

Every team tries to gain an edge everywhere they can, whether it's a mental edge, physical, or in this case, straddling the line of what's allowed...but who judges the amount that an advantage was actually gained? It seems to be a matter of opinion at this point...and for me, without saying cheating is ok because once again it seems I have to continually reiterate this...if I don't believe that a big advantage was really gained then why would I sit and willow about it?

Doesn't matter how much of an edge was gained. still cheated.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I just read the article, and have to say, John Madden makes a lot of sense.

 

Of course, the truth usually does make sense.  Take a look at the prperation Eli Manning has for his game balls!

 

"When Eli Manning drops back to throw his first pass Sunday against the Dallas Cowboys, the football in his hands will be as familiar as an old friend.  That is because the ball has been scoured, scrubbed, soaked and seasoned, a breaking-in process that takes months and ensures that every ball used by the Giants in a game will meet Manning’s exact preferences. The leather will have been softened, the grip enhanced and the overall feel painstakingly assessed."

 

"In all, there are always about 36 specially marked Eli Manning balls sequestered and protected in four large ball bags. If a coach looking for a ball at practice should unwittingly approach one of the bags, the team’s equipment director, Joe Skiba, will pounce: “Get away, those are Eli’s game balls.”

Skiba added: “No one is allowed to touch those balls. They’re precious jewels. Too much work has gone into them.”

When the Giants play away games, the balls are kept in a special trunk, although it is not labeled “Game Balls.” That might lead to sabotage."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/sports/football/eli-mannings-footballs-are-months-in-making.html?_r=0

 

All QB's in the NFL do this to some degree.  How can a player NOT know if there was something amiss from their preferred treatment.  Tom Brady is on record as preferring under inflated footballs.

 

"When Gronk scores … he spikes the ball and he deflates the ball,” Brady said in the 2011 interview. “I love that, because I like the deflated ball. But I feel bad for that football, because he puts everything he can into those spikes.”

 

http://nypost.com/2015/01/20/deflategate-tom-bradys-gronking-quote-to-remember/

[jvan1973]

Every team tries to gain an edge everywhere they can, whether it's a mental edge, physical, or in this case, straddling the line of what's allowed...but who judges the amount that an advantage was actually gained? It seems to be a matter of opinion at this point...and for me, without saying cheating is ok because once again it seems I have to continually reiterate this...if I don't believe that a big advantage was really gained then why would I sit and willow about it?

except they didn't straddle the rule the outright broke it, for the second time now

[dynasty13]

Doesn't matter how much of an edge was gained. still cheated.

Correct...they did. But that doesn't automatically mean an advantage was gained. That's all I'm saying, is that that aspect...how much or how little...is a matter of opinion.

[HOZER]

The thing I've asked several times today with no response from any *'s fan is, if it doesn't give the team an advantage, why not follow protocol???

I've asked the same thing with no answer as well.... interesting. I wonder if there's a 12 step program for cheaters?

[bababooey]

Correct...they did. But that doesn't automatically mean an advantage was gained. That's all I'm saying, is that that aspect...how much or how little...is a matter of opinion.

This is all a moo point. no one cares except for homer new england fans about the degree of competitive advantage that was unfairly gained. no one cares about that. again, no body cares about that. all people care about was the fact that they cheated. thats it.

[PuntersArePeopleToo]

Definitely.

Watch out for my kick start then

[dynasty13]

This is all a moo point. no one cares except for homer new england fans about the degree of competitive advantage that was unfairly gained. no one cares about that. again, no body cares about that. all people care about was the fact that they cheated. thats it.

Your mixing conversations. Nobody is denying what you are saying. I am responding to those questioning how we could possibly have the audacity to continue to root for our team. I am responding to those who wonder how I could possibly look up at those banners and smile...instead of crying myself to sleep thinking about those championship runs.

That is all.... I'm not justifying their actions at all, nor am I trying to convince anyone to not care about it....I'm simply trying to explain why why I won't 'just stop rooting for them' as many seem to think we should.

[Yehoodi]

No.  You have created a false moral equivalence - teams in one game were both doing something that was were not allowed, but from my limited understanding were not under a specific rule.  They stopped after being warned.  End of issue.  The league reminded all teams that it was not allowed and the season proceeded.  If one of those teams or other teams again do the same infraction the league needs to look at it and perhaps enforce a penalty or write a specific rule to point to.  

 

The Patriots broke a very detailed, specified, long-standing rule, in a way designed to deceive the officials and the other team and gain an advantage for themselves.  IF it is shown to have been executed after the referees certified their balls for use it is an intentional act of sabotage.  The level of deceit and manipulation for that kind of behavior makes it a much higher level infraction worthy of greater punishment.

 

A "leader" of a team that allows such a thing to be done stands fully accountable for it.  NOTHING like this would be done without the coach's approval, knowledge or in his control in the sense that he should have had knowledge and control.  The same as the Saint's issue.  

 

The playoffs are sacrosanct in my book.  They should throw the highest possible penalty against the team up to and including the coach being banned from this Superbowl and if it develops that they have been doing this all year long as seems to be coming out - he should serve a one year ban.  Any further cheating and he should be banned from the NFL for life.  That's how serious I take this.   

 

I understand some of your points but you are still missing my point about a moral compass. 

 

I am sure that you will agree that the ultimate issue in this case in not necessarily a rule in the rule book or the game manual, but the principle that each team should play on an equal playing field and that one team should not gain an advantage over the other in any shape or form, and certainly not when one team takes a conscious act to get an advantage over the other team.   And if one team takes an action they should be penalized for that act.

 

The rule book covers the specs of the ball and the game manual controls what a team can do with the ball once it has been approved by the refs pregame as it specifically states that the once the balls have left the locker room “no one . . . is allowed to alter the football in any way.”    The prohibition of not altering the balls includes anything done to the balls (i.e. “in any way”), be it reducing/increasing the air pressure in the ball, the addition of stickum to the ball, the heating of the ball, the drying of the ball with a hair dryer, the storing of the ball in a heated drying box, and so on.   Basically you cannot do anything to the balls.

 

The game manual makes sure that both teams are playing with the same balls included but not limited to inflation and effects by ambient conditions.   Just as it might seem unfair for a team to have a slightly underinflated ball so it is unfair that one team has a ball at 70 degree and dry and the other has to play with a 32 degree ball or a 40 degree wet ball.  That’s the point.  The action by the violating party is the same, taking an action to gain an advantage over my opponent.

 

The fact that both teams are violating the rules does not exonerate them anymore than if the colts used an overinflated ball would exonerate the Pats or two guys hitting each other over the head with their helmets, they both should be fined.  In addition when two teams are heating a ball it is unlikely that each team would end up with balls in the exact same condition, which on a second level shows you that you have an uneven playing field as invariably one team will have a ball in better condition than the other, 70 degrees versus 60 degrees as an example.   That is why you leave the ball alone and let the ambient conditions take over.

 

When we step back we understand that heating a ball or changing its inflation is a conscious act to gain an unfair advantage with violates the game manual and also violates the principles of integrity, honor and sportsmanship.   The point you were trying to make, but you seem to have double standard.

 

Regarding prior knowledge, I am sure most teams are aware of heating, inflating and altering the ball is a no no.  So unless there is a specific directive to the Pats to stop the practice of deflating balls, they stand in the same position as the teams that heated the balls in the Minn-Car game.  That is, they both have prior knowledge and frankly possession of the NFL Game Manual, and therefore are on notice of what can and cannot be done with respect to game balls once they leave the locker room.  

[PrincetonTiger]

Your mixing conversations. Nobody is denying what you are saying. I am responding to those questioning how we could possibly have the audacity to continue to root for our team. I am responding to those who wonder how I could possibly look up at those banners and smile...instead of crying myself to sleep thinking about those championship runs.

That is all.... I'm not justifying their actions at all, nor am I trying to convince anyone to not care about it....I'm simply trying to explain why why I won't 'just stop rooting for them' as many seem to think we should.

I do not think anyone is questioning why you are a Pat Fan or trying to convert you just stating their views

[Superman]

Every team tries to gain an edge everywhere they can, whether it's a mental edge, physical, or in this case, straddling the line of what's allowed...but who judges the amount that an advantage was actually gained? It seems to be a matter of opinion at this point...and for me, without saying cheating is ok because once again it seems I have to continually reiterate this...if I don't believe that a big advantage was really gained then why would I sit and willow about it?

 

Because there's taking an inch here, gaining an edge there, etc... which are obviously wrong. And then there's flagrant, blatant, willful disregard for the rules and the competitive balance of the league. 

 

I wouldn't expect you, as a Pats fan, to get all bent out of shape about it and stop being a fan of the team. I wouldn't expect you to burn all your memorabilia and never watch them play again, and all that. But that whole "there wasn't a big advantage" angle is basically being used as license to promote a cavalier attitude toward flagrant, blatant, willful cheating. 

 

I could give a hundred examples to demonstrate the difference between taking an inch here or there, and blatantly breaking the rules, but I don't think I really need to. We're all smart people (mostly). We can argue about the degree of the advantage until we're blue in the face, but that doesn't change flagrant nature of the offense. It's the cavalier "oh well, this sucks, but it's not a big deal" kind of attitude that wears on me, personally, because this appears to be institutional and willful disregard for the competitive balance of the league.

 

And piling it on top of Spygate, it's now TWICE that the Patriots have willfully disregarded the rules (defiantly so, in the case of Spygate, whether it was a technicality or not, whether there was a significant competitive advantage or not).

[Yehoodi]

Clearly you're not grasping the difference between what the Pats did and what happened in the Min. vs. Car. game.

 

Sorry but I am grasping what happened in the two games, please see my last post on the matter (post 1909)

[ColtsBlueFL]

Correct...they did. But that doesn't automatically mean an advantage was gained. That's all I'm saying, is that that aspect...how much or how little...is a matter of opinion.

 

My question is, why is the NFL so stringent on the air pressure level (13 psi, + or - 0.5 psi) and so lenient on external leather preparation treatment?  They must have a reason. I'd like to know.

[Yehoodi]

First off, I'd like to see where it is in the rulebook that prohibits that specific conduct.  Because as I go through the rulebook, it doesn't say anything of the sort - instead, they were doing something that wasn't either expressly prohibited or condoned.  On the other hand, the footballs weight, PSI, and dimensions are specifically laid out.  So what the Patriots did was expressly prohibited. 

 

Second, what the Patriots did was give the appearance at the weigh in that they were in compliance and then attempt to conceal the deflation of their footballs.  What hte Panthers/Vikings were doing were open and notorious, and the refs simply clarified to them that, "hey, you can't do this."  And both teams stopped.  They didn't continue to try to warm the footballs without anyone knowing about it.  Patriots continued to play with footballs which they deflated after they passed inspection and did so until they were told to do otherwise.  Big difference.

 

Its not in the rule book but in the game manual.   My post 1909 covers this point.

 

As for your second point, if we take what we have heard so far from the media, the refs took action at half time and there is no record as of yet that the pats deflated the balls in the second half.  So they basically did stop once they were warned.  That is at halftime the correction was made and the pats did not deflate any balls thereafter.

[Yehoodi]

Already addressed this.  According to the rules wording as written, this is not considered altering the balls.  If they were merely keeping them at the same temperature as when they were originally inflated, this technically is not changing the balls in any way.  This is different than what the Patriots did.  Thus the refs could only warn them and not really punish them.

 

Maybe I missed it, but is there a link to a rep from the NFL rules committee that stated this?

 

It is my understanding that Dean B. stated that it was a no no. 

 

Regarding prohibition on alteration after the balls leaves the locker room, the NFL game manual is pretty clear on this matter as the balls can not be alter in any way.  And the word any clearly includes counteracting the effects of ambient conditions.  if you have time to read tonight I have a long post at 1909 that goes into more detail.  

[jvan1973]

Its not in the rule book but in the game manual. My post 1909 covers this point.

As for your second point, if we take what we have heard so far from the media, the refs took action at half time and there is no record as of yet that the pats deflated the balls in the second half. So they basically did stop once they were warned. That is at halftime the correction was made and the pats did not deflate any balls thereafter.

i suggest you take a look at post 1848

[dw49]

Correct...they did. But that doesn't automatically mean an advantage was gained. That's all I'm saying, is that that aspect...how much or how little...is a matter of opinion.

 

 

Let's be honest here. You have no idea in hell how much advantage was gained. You don't have a clue how much better Brady might throw a defaulted ball vs a properly inflated one. You don't have a clue as to how many fumbles and dropped passes the Pats might have saved . You are clueless to how long they've been doing this . It's just suites your argument to say that IYO , they didn't gain a significant advantage. Honestly . it's laughable and you sound silly.

 

Now if you are trying to infer that this only happened in Sunday's game and it had no big significance , then you are being naive .

[Yehoodi]

i suggest you take a look at post 1848

 

Thanks for the reference.  I have already read that portion of the rule book and included the same in my post 1909.   You can go to my post 1909 to see how the rule book and game manual interact.

[Jules]

I used to always wonder why the NE offense turned into perfect rabid demons in the elements outdoors.

 

 

Now I think I understand better.

[dynasty13]

Let's be honest here. You have no idea in hell how much advantage was gained. You don't have a cue how much better Brady might throw a defaulted ball vs a properly inflated one. You don't have a clue as to how many fumbles and dropped passes the Pats might have saved . You are clueless to how long they've been doing this . It's just suites your argument to say that IYO , they didn't gain a significant advantage. Honestly . it's laughable and you sound silly.

I could literally copy and paste what you just wrote and apply it to any 'assumptions' that have been made by your side though too, can't I?

The fact is that nobody knows, but for some reason one sides opinion should be taken with more seriousness than the other? No...that's not the way this works. You guys have been mocking Brady's ability to throw the ball for years now...but all of a sudden you find out the balls had a little less air in them and that's why he's able to throw it? Doesn't add up.

[bababooey]

I could literally copy and paste what you just wrote and apply it to any 'assumptions' that have been made by your side though too, can't I?

The fact is that nobody knows, but for some reason one sides opinion should be taken with more seriousness than the other? No...that's not the way this works. You guys have been mocking Brady's ability to throw the ball for years now...but all of a sudden you find out the balls had a little less air in them and that's why he's able to throw it? Doesn't add up.

Do you really not have anything to do with your life than sit in a colts forum bickering with 5 colts fans who hate your team? Brady was throwing absolute ducks in last year's AFCCG, sailing over everyone's heads. Now he's throwing a lot better after adjusting the balls illegally to his liking. that's it.

[jvan1973]

I could literally copy and paste what you just wrote and apply it to any 'assumptions' that have been made by your side though too, can't I?

The fact is that nobody knows, but for some reason one sides opinion should be taken with more seriousness than the other? No...that's not the way this works. You guys have been mocking Brady's ability to throw the ball for years now...but all of a sudden you find out the balls had a little less air in them and that's why he's able to throw it? Doesn't add up.

When you are caught cheating a couple of times, benefit of doubt is lost

[Buck Showalter]

Every team tries to gain an edge everywhere they can, whether it's a mental edge, physical, or in this case, straddling the line of what's allowed...but who judges the amount that an advantage was actually gained? It seems to be a matter of opinion at this point...and for me, without saying cheating is ok because once again it seems I have to continually reiterate this...if I don't believe that a big advantage was really gained then why would I sit and willow about it?

Straddling! nice word choice, love it!

Who judges the amount of advantage is gained? also awesome, but moot point, as it is against protocol...

Matter of opinion? Obviously that is how Bill see's the agreed standard, in his opinion it doesn't need to be followed...

why would I sit and willow about it? you have spent a considerable amount of time/energy defending your team, so...not sure why...

 

anyways still not sure you've answered the question other than to say the *'s try to get any advantage they can in this case they didn't follow protocol, and thusly in fewer words, cheated...

 

and then of course you followed that response with a but...

[crazycolt1]

Why?  Some players habitually hold, commit pass interference.  Grab a face mask.  Where do we draw the line? 

 

By the way, the reason they have officials rather than play on the "honor system" is due to human nature.  To pretend that one team is cheating while the others are lilly white is pretty insane. 

 

This is no more severe than any other rules infraction, and it is less severe than intentionally hurting or attempting to hurt/maim/injure an opponent.

Your arguments don't deserve any responses.

[weslo1812]

All I can is that if the Pats are indeed proven to have tampered with the balls to drflate them, then essentially this daynasty they've had for the last 15 years is forever tainted. It would be 2 TIMES caught cheating!!! And so after one mentions all the success of the last 15 years then there will always be the question of how might they have cheated to gain an advantage in that game or that season? Outside of what was caught, there's the question of what cheating there could have been that wasn't caught.

[dw49]

I could literally copy and paste what you just wrote and apply it to any 'assumptions' that have been made by your side though too, can't I?

The fact is that nobody knows, but for some reason one sides opinion should be taken with more seriousness than the other? No...that's not the way this works. You guys have been mocking Brady's ability to throw the ball for years now...but all of a sudden you find out the balls had a little less air in them and that's why he's able to throw it? Doesn't add up.

 

 

I've read pretty much the whole 47 pages here and can honestly say that most of us (Colt fans) have not speculated on how much advantage this has given the Pats over God only knows how long they've been doing it. It's very possible that it could have been a huge factor in the win over Baltimore. Word is that they alerted the Colts , so you have to make the "leap" that they did it in that game also. Thing is you Pat fans come out and say it didn't have significant effect and you don't know that anymore than I know what real effect Spygate had or this had. How would I know ? 

 

The part about "us guys" mocking Brady's throwing ability is pure embellishment on your part. That's utterly ridiculous. I've been here 3 years and I can't remember a reputable Colt poster EVER akin that statement as it's absurd. Have you been drinking heavily since this came out ?

[bababooey]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=12207276

 

usually hate keith olbermann but this is entertaining on the subject.

[dynasty13]

When you are caught cheating a couple of times, benefit of doubt is lost

But then again, I didn't get caught cheating...so why should my opinion be disregarded any more than someone else's?

I just got called out for apparently acting like I knew exactly how a deflated ball effects Brady and his ability to throw etc...which of course, I don't. But all I'm saying is neither do any of you. Your assumptions as fans are somehow more credible than mine simply because of the team I root for?

This is where the line gets blurry, because we as fans are being tied to the teams actions by some of you and our 'moral compasses' are being questions simply because of the shade of blue that I root for.

[crazycolt1]

Interesting fact: the issue was rectified at the beginning of the 2nd half. The Pats scored 17 points in the first half and 28 in the 2nd half when they were playing with properly inflated balls. So there was absolutely no advantage. In fact, they played worse with under-inflated balls. Point differential may very well have been even greater had they played with properly inflated balls all game long.

 

Also, Rodgers has stated that he likes to push the boundaries in regards to over-inflating his team's balls. And the Buccaneers did something similar during their SB win. So did the Vikings:

 

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2015/01/green_bay_minnesota_tampa_bay.html

 

This is a league wide issue. Many teams have done and continue to do this. It's simply personal preference. Some teams like under-inflation, some like over-inflation. They all push the boundaries.

 

This is a non issue.

I cant believe you. I have one warning already and will not get another. I cant say the words you should hear. But you are a waist of time anyway.

[jvan1973]

But then again, I didn't get caught cheating...so why should my opinion be disregarded any more than someone else's?

I just got called out for apparently acting like I knew exactly how a deflated ball effects Brady and his ability to throw etc...which of course, I don't. But all I'm saying is neither do any of you. Your assumptions as fans are somehow more credible than mine simply because of the team I root for?

This is where the line gets blurry, because we as fans are being tied to the teams actions by some of you and our 'moral compasses' are being questions simply because of the shade of blue that I root for.

i wasn't referring to you personally, just the team you root for. They can't claim a mis understanding of the rules this time. Also Brady laughing it off in an interview as if it wasn't true coupled with calling out harbaugh for not knowing the rule book a week earlier. You can see why anyone outside of pats fans are ready to pound them. They brought it on themselves and deserve everything they are getting and what ever punishment is handed down

[dynasty13]

Do you really not have anything to do with your life than sit in a colts forum bickering with 5 colts fans who hate your team? Brady was throwing absolute ducks in last year's AFCCG, sailing over everyone's heads. Now he's throwing a lot better after adjusting the balls illegally to his liking. that's it.

Hahha that's quite the leap, I recommend you watch the game again if you can stomach it....Brady under threw his guys all night! In fact, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he would have thrown BETTER had they been inflated more.

[dynasty13]

i wasn't referring to you personally, just the team you root for. They can't claim a mis understanding of the rules this time. Also Brady laughing it off in an interview as if it wasn't true coupled with calling out harbaugh for not knowing the rule book a week earlier. You can see why anyone outside of pats fans are ready to pound them. They brought it on themselves and deserve everything they are getting and what ever punishment is handed down

And I don't disagree with you, and I think that's what has been lost in some of this bickering with a select few...people assume I'm defending it when I haven't once made that claim. The only thing I've defended all day was my fanhood and why those banners somehow don't embarrass me. Anything else people claim I'm insinuating has been a complete fabrication.

[PuntersArePeopleToo]

And I don't disagree with you, and I think that's what has been lost in some of this bickering with a select few...people assume I'm defending it when I haven't once made that claim. The only thing I've defended all day was my fanhood and why those banners somehow don't embarrass me. Anything else people claim I'm insinuating has been a complete fabrication.

But with them being deflated its easier for a person to make acrobatic catch see jackson

[New Zealands #1 Colts Fan]

i wish i had a dollar for every post in this thread

[PuntersArePeopleToo]

i wish i had a dollar for every post in this thread

You would have $1935 then!

[jmac_48]

Yup...total typo!!!! No wonder, I guess that explains some of the responses ;)

I meant to write that I don't believe it gave the team a huge advantage...sorry for the confusion.

You see, that's exactly the problem here.

It's not the advantage gained or the egregiousness of the offense, It's the INTENT, It's the knowingly doing something to circumvent the rules. It's the history of the organization committing such offenses that sticks in the craw of reasonable football fans.

 

The Pats are something like 17-4 in home playoff games...

Hummm it makes one wonder how long this behavior has been going on?

 

It dilutes the integrity of the game, and getting caught 3 times..... SMH!

[-JJ-]

i wish i had a dollar for every post in this thread

I'll raise you. I'll take a dollar for every "cheater" word. ;)