Patriots being investigated for Deflating footballs.....(Mega Merge)

[DougDew]

I haven't read all of the thread, but the incident of the refs weighing the ball I believe was fairly early in the game.

Forget the link to a journalist, because they often get things wrong because they report what they were told and not what they see for themselves.

There was a delay in the game after a kickoff to the pats that obligated Nance to mention, and he mentioned that the refs had to switch balls because it was spotted with what he described was a "kickoff" ball, and that balls used on offense are scuffed a bit. (Nance and Sims were just speculating)

If that is where the refs pulled the ball for weighing, that was pretty early in the game, and it was when the Pats were going on offense, which tells me they had some indications something was up early on...and that it probably wasn't a mistake, but rather was a BelliKraft strategy.

If any of this is true....of course.

And it had nothing to do with the outcome of the game...it just provides insight into the BelliKraft approach. Frankly, I'd rather watch NASCAR and WWE.

On a broader note, given the history of the approach, at what point do we start calling Brady's superbowl rings counterfeit?

[Superman]

Well a Pats win wouldn't be a Pats win without the rest of the football world angry about something...  ;)

 

I just think people should learn how this works (handling of the game balls vs. kicking balls, and other details) before they share their scathing opinions. Just brush up on it first. That's all. 

 

I think the NFL and the refs know how this works. They are the ones who were suspicious during the game and who have launched in inquiry into this. Now that weird stoppage to switch balls makes more sense.

 

Of course, I don't think it has anything to do with why the Colts got their butts kicked. But if it's true that Patriots personnel had anything to do with tampering with the game balls, well, then, it speaks very poorly of your team. 

[Luck-Fan12]

Why anyone would respect that franchise is beyond be I don't care if it didnt affect us it's still cheating

[TKnight24]

Each team uses their own. Means colts were playing with regulation balls.

Yeah but you gotta wonder if that deflated ball was the reason that Edelman catch didn't go for a TD. Play action and everyone bit up. Even Landry ran past Edelman. Better throw and that's easily 6 points. Or was it the right throw but not enough air in the ball?

[JColts72]

You can bet the farm Bill B. will want to beat the Colts by 50 to 60 points when they play during the 2015 season over this one.

[da_pats_troll]

Yeah but you gotta wonder if that deflated ball was the reason that Edelman catch didn't go for a TD. Play action and everyone bit up. Even Landry ran past Edelman. Better throw and that's easily 6 points. Or was it the right throw but not enough air in the ball?

 

That runs counter to the reason people are saying the  ball was under inflated. Supposedly under inflated balls are ~easier~ to throw. If that theory is true, then the ball should of been thrown better, not worse.

[TKnight24]

That runs counter to the reason people are saying the ball was under inflated. Supposedly under inflated balls are ~easier~ to throw. If that theory is true, then the ball should of been thrown better, not worse.

But it was windy there. Under inflated means the wind should be easier to impact it right?

[DougDew]

But it was windy there. Under inflated means the wind should be easier to impact it right?

Not really on short throws. The Pats didn't even try to throw long once all game, IIRC

[da_pats_troll]

But it was windy there. Under inflated means the wind should be easier to impact it right?

 

I dont know the answer to that. Just going by what I have been reading from others that probably more knowledgeable then I. Supposedly softer balls are easier to grip and throw. Just from my own "common sense" (take that with a grain of salt ), wind effects would be slightly less on an under inflated ball as it probably has a slightly less size. Once the ball gets seriously under inflated, ie, flat, then its profile changes to being more effected by the wind.

[GoPats]

I hear you. Must be tiring being a Pats fan trying to defend all these accusations.

 

But really, why is there always a headline with Pats and cheating?. Is it really that everyone outside Pats nation are not very knowledgable?. I am sure there is a possibility.

 

I was referring to the people who said that deflated balls impact the kicking game. The refs have the K-balls and switch them out for those plays. 

 

Your obviously snide response aside, it's paramount to understand the rules and how things work before you have any credibility in accusing someone of breaking them. Goes for life, not just football. Most of the people who still bring up "Spygate" don't even understand the actual rule the Patriots broke. 

 

An informed opinion outweighs any misinformed reaction. That's all. 

 

 

I think the NFL and the refs know how this works. They are the ones who were suspicious during the game and who have launched in inquiry into this. Now that weird stoppage to switch balls makes more sense.

 

Of course, I don't think it has anything to do with why the Colts got their butts kicked. But if it's true that Patriots personnel had anything to do with tampering with the game balls, well, then, it speaks very poorly of your team. 

 

Of course the ref know how it works. Not giving me much credit here huh? 

 

See my response above. 

[DougDew]

On a broader note...I think someone mentioned that the punishment for this offense..if true..is a paltry $25,000 fine. I guess there is no distinction in the rules between an occurrence during a meaningless regular season game, or a windy rainy AFCCG.

If true, I think its incumbent on the other 31 owners to speak to Goodell and look at the body of work the patriots have done under the BelliKraft regime, and seriously consider asnctions against their approach to the game. Possibly, eliminating them from this years draft.

There is a death penalty in the NCAA for a repeated pattern of offenses, but no equivilent in the NFL

People who live by the Bellikraft approach will always weigh the punishment for getting caught doing something inappropriate against its benefit. The NFL can't assign punishment on a piecemeal approach with these guys...they need to look at the body of work, the overall NASCAR WWE approach (which makes the NFL less watchable), and assign some sort of temporary death penalty to send the message.

If the allegations are true of course.

[Superman]

Of course the ref know how it works. Not giving me much credit here huh? 

 

See my response above. 

 

I did read your response above.

 

I don't see what any of this has to do with not giving you credit. This isn't a fan petition from some paranoid and fanatical anti-Pats corner of the Internet. 

 

All I'm saying is that, if it's true that the Pats deliberately tampered with game balls, then this isn't an issue of "the world needs a reason to hate the Pats." Not even close. It's an issue of whether the Pats broke the rules for a competitive advantage, and they would be deserving of plenty of criticism, if that's the case. 

 

And again, this has nothing to do with last night's outcome. Those two teams could have been playing with rugby balls, Nerf balls, tennis balls, frisbees, bowling balls... the Pats were clearly the better team. 

[The Fish]

The Pats do their reputation no favors constantly being attached to cheating. 

[GoPats]

I don't see what any of this has to do with not giving you credit. This isn't a fan petition from some paranoid and fanatical anti-Pats corner of the Internet. 

 

 

 

Because I know that the refs know how this works. They handle the ball on every snap. No player or coach can really initiate this type of inquiry, at least not to my knowledge. 

 

I'm talking about the mindlessness of the comments earlier in this thread by people who don't understand the difference between game balls and k-balls, who don't know where the game balls come from and how it all works, etc. 

[Superman]

Because I know that the refs know how this works. They handle the ball on every snap. No player or coach can really initiate this type of inquiry, at least not to my knowledge. 

 

I'm talking about the mindlessness of the comments earlier in this thread by people who don't understand the difference between game balls and k-balls, who don't know where the game balls come from and how it all works, etc. 

 

Okay.

 

I'm just saying, that mindlessness aside, it's not like the Pats aren't worthy of some acrimony in this case, assuming it's true. It's not like they have any goodwill built up.

 

So the whole 'gotta complain about the Pats, and you don't know what you're talking about' thing seems out of place. The NFL initiated the investigation, and if it's true, it's cheating. It's worthy of complaint.

[Luck-Fan12]

It's so funny how pats fans defend them after things like this hello not like its the first time you have been investigated

[GoPats]

Okay.

 

I'm just saying, that mindlessness aside, it's not like the Pats aren't worthy of some acrimony in this case, assuming it's true. It's not like they have any goodwill built up.

 

So the whole 'gotta complain about the Pats, and you don't know what you're talking about' thing seems out of place. The NFL initiated the investigation, and if it's true, it's cheating. It's worthy of complaint.

 

I said it last week with the whole "ineligible" player formation, BB has brought this on himself. He's earned the reputation and has left himself open to never receiving the benefit of any doubt. I'm not trying to justify anything or argue that point.

 

I'm just a stickler, I guess, because I feel like if you're going to accuse someone of breaking a rule, it's pretty important to actually, you know, KNOW the rule and in this case how the handling of footballs works at an NFL game. 

[TKnight24]

The Pats do their reputation no favors constantly being attached to cheating.

Who cares about rep when you keep winning?

[dw49]

I think the NFL and the refs know how this works. They are the ones who were suspicious during the game and who have launched in inquiry into this. Now that weird stoppage to switch balls makes more sense.

 

Of course, I don't think it has anything to do with why the Colts got their butts kicked. But if it's true that Patriots personnel had anything to do with tampering with the game balls, well, then, it speaks very poorly of your team. 

 

 

I wonder how it would be possible for he Pats to tamper with balls that already were inspected and were in the "hands" of a 3rd party ? And (never start a sentence with And) how in the heck would it be proved. Then taking it to another level .. would they really conduct the investigation to the "best of their ability." I'm sure the NFL would just love to come out before the SB saying the Pats cheated again.    

[The Fish]

Who cares about rep when you keep winning?

 

Apparently no one who's a NE employee or fan.

[amfootball]

Who cares about rep when you keep winning?

Right on.

[Superman]

I said it last week with the whole "ineligible" player formation, BB has brought this on himself. He's earned the reputation and has left himself open to never receiving the benefit of any doubt. I'm not trying to justify anything or argue that point.

 

I'm just a stickler, I guess, because I feel like if you're going to accuse someone of breaking a rule, it's pretty important to actually, you know, KNOW the rule and in this case how the handling of footballs works at an NFL game. 

 

But that's the point: the NFL most decidedly knows the rule. They are the ones investigating.

 

Of course, just like anything else, people hear/read something and run with it, without knowing what they're talking about. Then comes the nonsense. I get that. I just don't get why a Pats fan would be defensive.

 

It's like you said, Belichick brought it on himself. I read your post in the other thread about how mad you were about Spygate. I get that. For 7 years, other fans have been throwing that in your face, and it's unclear whether that even had any impact on wins and losses. It was still a deliberate violation of the rules. Same here. The balls could have been imaginary last night, and the outcome would have been no different. It's still a deliberate violation of the rules.

 

And not to kick a(nother) dead horse, but I never thought the ineligible player thing was a violation of the rules. I do think it's a loophole that's being exploited, but I'm fine with that. It's legal, do it until it's not legal or it doesn't work. (It does annoy me that Belichick gets credited as an innovator with this, when he's basically stolen it from college coaches. The Solder TD last night was a carbon copy of the Castonzo TD from Week 11.)

[Superman]

Right on.

 

Win at all costs?

[Superman]

I wonder how it would be possible for he Pats to tamper with balls that already were inspected and were in the "hands" of a 3rd party ? And (never start a sentence with And) how in the heck would it be proved. Then taking it to another level .. would they really conduct the investigation to the "best of their ability." I'm sure the NFL would just love to come out before the SB saying the Pats cheated again.    

 

Yeah, it's hard to really get my mind around it. First, I don't care. Second, I don't believe anything will come of it.

 

But I don't really think it's impossible for the home team to somehow influence the game balls. Everybody likes to have their palms greased.

[dw49]

Yeah, it's hard to really get my mind around it. First, I don't care. Second, I don't believe anything will come of it.

 

But I don't really think it's impossible for the home team to somehow influence the game balls. Everybody likes to have their palms greased.

 

Ditto the above with special note to your belief of the outcome.

[Narcosys]

Yeah but you gotta wonder if that deflated ball was the reason that Edelman catch didn't go for a TD. Play action and everyone bit up. Even Landry ran past Edelman. Better throw and that's easily 6 points. Or was it the right throw but not enough air in the ball?

Bad thrown ball. Deflated is just easier to grip for brady. He the it poorly still. Had it been regulation, maybe it would have slipped more. But we can play what if's all day now.

[amfootball]

Win at all costs?

Sigh ... I am smart enough to know that the Pats success the past 15 years has 99 percent to do with their drafting, preparation, coaching and players than anything else. Spygate was easily the most over blow sports story of the millennium and folks still bring it up incorrectly as GoPats said so you just kind of accept that for what it is. I love that Bill scours the rule book and comes up with formations not normally seen to gain a competitive advantage. I love that he builds his team with versatile players like Olineman that can catch TD passes and LBs that are as good in coverage as DBs.

 

We will see where this latest allegations goes but as you said, it didn't effect outcome either way so yeah winning and being back in the Bowl is great.

[GoPats]

But that's the point: the NFL most decidedly knows the rule. They are the ones investigating.

 

 

I'm not talking about the refs or the NFL. 

 

If the Patriots are cleared of any wrongful actions, that will mean nothing to the same people who are citing how deflated balls will impact the kicking game because they don't get it. 

 

"Of course they're innocent, the NFL is corrupt!"

 

"Kraft has Goodell in his back pocket!"

 

And some Indy fans will not be as stand-up as you when it comes to the results of the game. That's already apparent in this thread. I don't care if the balls were completely flat. That had nothing to do with your defense's ability to tackle and Luck's Daltonesque performance. 

[dgambill]

This really didn't have any impact on the game. I wish this never happened because honestly it just gives people fodder to criticize the Patriots and whatever happens that TEAM is a really good team...as were their teams back in the early part of the decade and deserve to be champions. If this comes out true whoever is in charge of the balls on the Pats team should be fired...its a basic job to perform and to tarnish this teams reputation sucks. This is a great team that didn't need this sort of poor attention. I hope it comes out that they had the wrong balls or something. Considering the game plan of running the ball I hardly think this would have been intentional or ordered from above.

[Superman]

I'm not talking about the refs or the NFL. 

 

If the Patriots are cleared of any wrongful actions, that will mean nothing to the same people who are citing how deflated balls will impact the kicking game because they don't get it. 

 

"Of course they're innocent, the NFL is corrupt!"

 

"Kraft has Goodell in his back pocket!"

 

And some Indy fans will not be as stand-up as you when it comes to the results of the game. That's already apparent in this thread. I don't care if the balls were completely flat. That had nothing to do with your defense's ability to tackle and Luck's Daltonesque performance. 

 

Fair enough. I just again found your "tortured Pats fan" angle to be ironic.

 

We should talk about that last line, though. I don't think Luck played poorly, until the pick to Revis. Several drops, no separation on the back end, etc. He was handcuffed all game. But nice Troy Brown reference...

[Valpo2004]

or was the deflated balls just for the Patriots?  For them to grip the ball better? 

 

I believe each team provides the footballs that it plays offense with.  If the Pats where using deflated footballs, only they would have been using them and the only Colt's player to ever get his hands on one would be D'qwell Jackson.  

[Shane Bond]

I was referring to the people who said that deflated balls impact the kicking game. The refs have the K-balls and switch them out for those plays. 

 

Your obviously snide response aside, it's paramount to understand the rules and how things work before you have any credibility in accusing someone of breaking them. Goes for life, not just football. Most of the people who still bring up "Spygate" don't even understand the actual rule the Patriots broke. 

 

An informed opinion outweighs any misinformed reaction. That's all. 

 

 

 

Of course the ref know how it works. Not giving me much credit here huh? 

 

See my response above. 

Snide response was required to your snide comment accusing everyone in the world for their lack of knowledge just because Pats are being investigated by NFL.

 

To the topic, Superman covered it all.

[Valpo2004]

Who cares about rep when you keep winning?

 

For most people that is all that will matter.  Spygate was spun in such a way that even though the NFL came down hard on the Pats and Belichek, a lot of non patriots fans don't even think it was a big deal.

 

I'm sure if it's found the pats did something it will get spun that way too. . . 

 

Thing is though, is if those things don't give a team an edge, they wouldn't waste their time with them in the first place.  

 

Time and time again in things like this. . . it's shown to us that the benefits of winning via cheating outweigh the benefits of following the rules.  You can take draft picks, you can fine Belichek, it's not going to matter because he's winning.  

 

The only way the NFL can make sure it's rules are taken seriously is to suspend the entire patriots coaching staff and front office for life.  And if Kraft knew about it, he should be forced to sell the team.  

 

It wasn't that long ago that the NFL discovered the Pats had been cheating with spygate.  If they are returning discovering another instance of cheating with the same team, same head coach/GM, then that coach needs to be done for good.  

[jvan1973]

So heres a question. If these things BB does have no effect on outcomes of games, why does he do them?

[hawkeyes]

I do not think this is the reason we lost, but IF they did in fact intentionally deflate balls - IMO THIS team should be penalized and NOT next years team with a draft pick or two - sorry you cheated in the game against the Colts so they go to the SB!

Patriots prove their true color again ... CHEATERS!

[GoPats]

Fair enough. I just again found your "tortured Pats fan" angle to be ironic.

 

We should talk about that last line, though. I don't think Luck played poorly, until the pick to Revis. Several drops, no separation on the back end, etc. He was handcuffed all game. But nice Troy Brown reference...

 

Well to your point about the "tortured" Pats fans...

 

I've been a Patriots fan since I was a kid. I'm 42. First game I went to was in 1979. We've had lots of bad seasons. I've been through a lot with this particular sports team. And yes, it sucks that they're under fire - even if it's deserved based on BB's past actions. As a fan, it sucks. You're invested and you've been through countless crap seasons to be here. An endless line of inept coaches, GMs, and bottom-of-the-barrel players. 

 

As for Luck...

 

He had some good passes dropped and faced a good amount of pressure. He also made some nice throws, like the one to Hilton on the Colts' scoring drive. I remember immediately after that play thinking, "Uh-oh," and wondering if Indy was about to make it a game. He sailed some throws high (probably over-inflated balls  ;) ) but this wasn't the type of game where an otherworldly effort out of a QB would have made much of a difference. Not with the way Indy's D played. 

 

Luck was also one of Indy's best tacklers last night. On both INTs he showed a ton of heart and hustle. I don't think I'll forget those plays, no matter how long the kid stays in the league. It left an impression with me that he was throwing his body in the line of fire like that in a blowout game. 

[GoPats]

Snide response was required to your snide comment accusing everyone in the world for their lack of knowledge just because Pats are being investigated by NFL.

 

 

So when someone inaccurately brings up how an under-inflated ball in this case would impact the kicking game, I'm supposed to just ignore the fact that the K-balls are held by the refs. 

 

Got it. Thanks Shane. 

[pgt_rob]

 Luck's Daltonesque performance. 

 

Seriously? Luck is not even comparable to Andy Dalton. It was not Luck's fault for the outcome of the game. Get that through your narrow minded brain of yours.

[Shane Bond]

So when someone inaccurately brings up how an under-inflated ball in this case would impact the kicking game, I'm supposed to just ignore the fact that the K-balls are held by the refs. 

 

Got it. Thanks Shane. 

I mean i am not sure which part of Superman's response didn't make sense.

 

Obviously, NFL is investigating it. Are you suggesting their investigation is wrong to begin with?.

[RockThatBlue]

So heres a question. If these things BB does have no effect on outcomes of games, why does he do them?

Bingo.