Surprise! Pats play fast and loose with the rules!

[ViriLudant]

You do realize this is a COLTS forum, right?

I was of course being sarcastic. I am a huge Luck fan, but his propensity for turnovers is atrocious compared to Brady.

[ColtsBlueFL]

true ,   harbaugh  is on the competition committee

 

Well Harbaugh himself isn't, but the Ravens GM Ozzie Newsome is.  He certainly has Harbaugh's concern in mind.

[Yehoodi]

Pagano said he called Blandino Sunday morning to get a clarification about the rule and what the Pats did. So they're being proactive about it. But yeah, I'm sure they have something up their sleeves. I'll meet you in the game discussion thread about that.

 

To answer your question above, yeah, I don't think the rule states that a player wearing an eligible number has to declare. Here's the difference, though: #47 was lined up in an ineligible position, two spots over from center, where the LT would normally line up. They hid him. He was uncovered, as another poster mentioned, so you can go back and see that he was obviously going to be eligible, but it wasn't clear at the time, and it's hard to get that figured out in real time. 

 

I mentioned earlier also, the Colts did something similar against the Pats. They made their LT eligible, and kept him in the LT spot, two spots over from center. He had to declare because of his number. #47 didn't have to declare. It was up to the defense to figure it out, through the process of elimination, in the 7 seconds between the ref's announcement and the snap of the ball. 

 

I have not spent much time on this matter and I do not have time to go back and forth with it all.  But I do have one question

 

But I have a question regarding the bolded.  

 

Does the NFL rule book require that there be two ineligible players immediately on each side of the center?  If not, where are you getting your point regarding Homan?  He had an default eligible number and was lined up off the line of scrimmage and is not covered up, not sure what the issue him.  By the very fact that he is where he is with the number he has he is by rule eligible and in not need for further explanation.  

 

Now it maybe a tough formation for the defense to pick up, but so is seeing a QB fake a hand off to a RB and roll out for a pass a run play formation becomes a pass but there is no requirement for the offense to declare they are going to pass prior to the snap. 

 

Bottom line, it is a formation that is self evident with respect to Homan and unless someone can point to a rule in the rule book it is up to the defense to figure where he is eligible or not, no different that it is the responsibility for defense to figure out every other 1000s formations that are possible in the sport we love. 

[Superman]

I have not spent much time on this matter and I do not have time to go back and forth with it all.  But I do have one question

 

But I have a question regarding the bolded.  

 

Does the NFL rule book require that there be two ineligible players immediately on each side of the center?  If not, where are you getting your point regarding Homan?  He had an default eligible number and was lined up off the line of scrimmage and is not covered up, not sure what the issue him.  By the very fact that he is where he is with the number he has he is by rule eligible and in not need for further explanation.  

 

Now it maybe a tough formation for the defense to pick up, but so is seeing a QB fake a hand off to a RB and roll out for a pass a run play formation becomes a pass but there is no requirement for the offense to declare they are going to pass prior to the snap. 

 

Bottom line, it is a formation that is self evident with respect to Homan and unless someone can point to a rule in the rule book it is up to the defense to figure where he is eligible or not, no different that it is the responsibility for defense to figure out every other 1000s formations that are possible in the sport we love. 

 

It's easy for you to read articles about the rule and watch the replay and still shots, then retroactively declare that the formation is self evident. I don't think that's the way it goes on the field, and that's the very reason the Pats ran it this way. They wanted to hide him.

 

And no, the rule doesn't state that two ineligible players be lined up to either side of the center. A play you don't see very often is the Swinging Gate. You can line up players wherever you want, so long as there are enough eligible players on and off the line on either side of the ball. But when a team runs Swinging Gate or something similar, the ineligible players are usually identified by their jersey numbers. That's obviously not the case here.

[The Fish]

  You do realize that 95% of NFL fans don't even know what "Spygate" is.  

 

 

87.5% of all stats on the internet are made up on the spot. And this assertion is wrong. 

[GoPats]

I agree, and what the competition committee will debate is who and when player eligibility/ineligibility plays into this.

 

 

Pagano said he called Blandino Sunday morning to get a clarification about the rule and what the Pats did. So they're being proactive about it. But yeah, I'm sure they have something up their sleeves. I'll meet you in the game discussion thread about that.

 

To answer your question above, yeah, I don't think the rule states that a player wearing an eligible number has to declare. Here's the difference, though: #47 was lined up in an ineligible position, two spots over from center, where the LT would normally line up. They hid him. He was uncovered, as another poster mentioned, so you can go back and see that he was obviously going to be eligible, but it wasn't clear at the time, and it's hard to get that figured out in real time. 

 

I mentioned earlier also, the Colts did something similar against the Pats. They made their LT eligible, and kept him in the LT spot, two spots over from center. He had to declare because of his number. #47 didn't have to declare. It was up to the defense to figure it out, through the process of elimination, in the 7 seconds between the ref's announcement and the snap of the ball. 

 

Good discussion and thanks guys... as we say around here, "You're wicked smaht."  ;)

[Cynjin]

I did teach for a couple of semesters at a VT state college... I think I still have the corduroy jacket (complete with leather arm patches) somewhere...

;)

Well as long as that jacket still fits you are all set. ;)

[GoPats]

Well as long as that jacket still fits you are all set. ;)

 

I'm not sure that it ever actually fit right to begin with! 

[radiogirl]

I was of course being sarcastic. I am a huge Luck fan, but his propensity for turnovers is atrocious compared to Brady.

He's young.  He's a fantastic power and I am confident his skills will improve.  But, look at all he has done for the team!  I believe we are 2 or so years out from being an incredible team!  Building!  Now go have a beer.  It always improves my outlook!  

[BOTT]

I see no problem with this call at all. More genius from Bill Belichick for bringing in something no one has seemed before. He used that and the trick play with Edleman at the best moment.. well maybe not the best moment because now the Colts can gameplan against it.

Lol. The Lions and Caldwell ran the same thing earlier this year. I doubt anyone called him a genius. Then again, BB did invent football.

[amfootball]

Lol. The Lions and Caldwell ran the same thing earlier this year. I doubt anyone called him a genius. Then again, BB did invent football.

Yep. And I am sure the opposing coach did not go ballistic like Harbaugh either. It is amazing how there is just this expectation with Bill and he just can't shake it - he is the evil genius. It was a stinking formation that was legal. And here we are days later and six pages later still discussing it and Harbaugh is still talking about it too with the league.

[ColtsRule815]

Another crybaby thread from a crybaby fanbase.  Coach Belichick outsmarts Harbaugh and sends him home crying because he was deceived!  Isn't deception the key to football? 

 

"Wah, no fair! The Quarterback faked like it was going to be a hand off but then threw the ball.  that was deceiving! Wah, the defense faked like they were going to blitz but dropped everyone back into coverage! Wah! Wah!"

 

I'm just happy this game is being played in Gillette so the Patriots don't need to deal with any crowd noise getting piped into the stadium.

 

 

I'm not sure how you managed to hit EVERY branch on the way down during your headlong dive off the top of the * tree, but it's quite an impressive if ignominious feat.  Congrats.

[Yehoodi]

It's easy for you to read articles about the rule and watch the replay and still shots, then retroactively declare that the formation is self evident. I don't think that's the way it goes on the field, and that's the very reason the Pats ran it this way. They wanted to hide him.

 

And no, the rule doesn't state that two ineligible players be lined up to either side of the center. A play you don't see very often is the Swinging Gate. You can line up players wherever you want, so long as there are enough eligible players on and off the line on either side of the ball. But when a team runs Swinging Gate or something similar, the ineligible players are usually identified by their jersey numbers. That's obviously not the case here.

 

I don't need to read articles or the rule book to see if the player's eligibility is self evident.   Eligible number combined with off the line of scrimmage = eligible player.  Regardless of any kind of circus that surrounds that player.  If the defender lets that get in his head, that is his fault not the offense.  Thanks football.

 

The formation is question is a very simply formation to figure out the only issue is that it is a rare formation, but that is not the fault of Pats.  I intentionally did not get involved in this discussion over the weekend as it was a new formation for many, there was plenty of "deception" talk, people were making a Federal case out of it, and I just wanted some time to set aside some time to ponder the formation and view in light other forms of football to see how, if at all, it might be off base.  Bottom line the formation is easy peasy and is simply "confusing" because it is new, not because is deceptive.  Lets discuss . . .

 

First off lets look at something that we are familiar with and is something that does not have all the windstorm of the recent play and see how easy and acceptable it is to fans and players.  The eligible lineman.   Normally you have a QB five eligible players (by number) lets call them the Ys and five ineligible big guys (by number) and lets call them the Zs.  So in a typical formation we have 5 Ys and 5 Zs, no problem every one understands this.  On some occasions the team will take out one of the Ys and replace him with an extra Z, so we have 4 Ys and 6 Zs.  And sometimes they will have this formation and make one of the Zs be a Y.  In order to do this you need to announce the change of that player from a Z to a Y.  So lets say its Z2 (number 95 say) is declared eligible then you have the 4 Ys and Z2 are eligible and the other 5 Zs (Z1, Z3, Z4, Z5 and Z6) remain ineligible.

 

Now is this change of Z2 (player number 95) a major shift in the sport of football, certain not and it is a common event in the game and surely there are defensive game plans to adjust when a lineman has made himself eligible.  Done a 1000 times no complaints.  Yes the D has to do some work, but they do it.

 

So in review we normally have 5 Ys and 5 Zs.  At times we can have 4 Ys and 6Zs with one of the Zs being declared a Y so we have five each, no problem, been there done that, no need to call the National Guard.

 

All the pats did was to simple reverse the above.  They fielded 6 Ys and 4 Zs and declared one of the Ys to be a Z.  It is as simple as a formation and disclosure as doing the above, it is merely in reverse.  Granted it is rare event, and thus might cause confusion and feelings of it being not right, but is because it is rare and not inherently deceptive.  Once people soak it in its not complicated.  And yes when asked on the radio BB indicated that the Pats have defensive game plans in place to counter act this play, altho he did not disclose what the plans were.

 

For me a simply game plan would be to tell my players if you see 6 small/thin guys (6Ys) and 4 Bigs (4Zs) wait for which one of the Y says he is a Z and do not cover him, basically ignore hime.   Surely there are many other game plans that can be drawn up, I just added my as an example.

 

But bottom line if a defense can handle to change of a Z to a Y they can handle the change of a Y to a Z.  In the former you need to pay attention to that player as he is now eligible in the latter you can simply ignore him as he is no longer eligible.  Just wait for the number to be declared and adjust, if they can do it for the former they can do if for the latter.

 

As for being self evident, it well . . . is self evident. 

 

Again a basic game plan would be to tell your player to ignore the Y who was converted to a Z.  So if you and I are coaches and we give our players at least that simply situational game plan we have the following observation of number 47.

 

1) Number 47 is a Y

2) Number 34 was called to be the Y that is now a Z (i.e. 47 aint 34 so he retains his Y status)

3) Number 47 is off the line of scrimmage and is not covered

4) Based on the open facts on the field and over the PA system in items 1, 2 and 3,  47 = eligible.

 

If our defenders can not see that it is self evidence that 47 is still eligible even though we told him only ignore the one Y that was converted, then our defender is playing checkers while the opponent is playing chess. 

 

Bottom line it was self evident that 47 was eligible and all that the pats did was take a common play and reverse it.  Yes it is new but not anything that is deceptive. 

 

Although I have not confirmed this myself, but I heard Peter King on the local radio today indicated that he watched the game again and heard on two of the occasions that the time between the announcement of the ineligible player and the snap is 7 seconds and on one occasion and 10 seconds.  Plenty of time seeing that the play clock is only 40 seconds.  Indeed, I am not sure if that much time is given when they announce the eligible lineman and the snap.   Yes it was new but it was not deceptive or complicated, just new.  

[Superman]

I don't need to read articles or the rule book to see if the player's eligibility is self evident.   Eligible number combined with off the line of scrimmage = eligible player.  Regardless of any kind of circus that surrounds that player.  If the defender lets that get in his head, that is his fault not the offense.  Thanks football.

 

The formation is question is a very simply formation to figure out the only issue is that it is a rare formation, but that is not the fault of Pats.  I intentionally did not get involved in this discussion over the weekend as it was a new formation for many, there was plenty of "deception" talk, people were making a Federal case out of it, and I just wanted some time to set aside some time to ponder the formation and view in light other forms of football to see how, if at all, it might be off base.  Bottom line the formation is easy peasy and is simply "confusing" because it is new, not because is deceptive.  Lets discuss . . .

 

First off lets look at something that we are familiar with and is something that does not have all the windstorm of the recent play and see how easy and acceptable it is to fans and players.  The eligible lineman.   Normally you have a QB five eligible players (by number) lets call them the Ys and five ineligible big guys (by number) and lets call them the Zs.  So in a typical formation we have 5 Ys and 5 Zs, no problem every one understands this.  On some occasions the team will take out one of the Ys and replace him with an extra Z, so we have 4 Ys and 6 Zs.  And sometimes they will have this formation and make one of the Zs be a Y.  In order to do this you need to announce the change of that player from a Z to a Y.  So lets say its Z2 (number 95 say) is declared eligible then you have the 4 Ys and Z2 are eligible and the other 5 Zs (Z1, Z3, Z4, Z5 and Z6) remain ineligible.

 

Now is this change of Z2 (player number 95) a major shift in the sport of football, certain not and it is a common event in the game and surely there are defensive game plans to adjust when a lineman has made himself eligible.  Done a 1000 times no complaints.  Yes the D has to do some work, but they do it.

 

So in review we normally have 5 Ys and 5 Zs.  At times we can have 4 Ys and 6Zs with one of the Zs being declared a Y so we have five each, no problem, been there done that, no need to call the National Guard.

 

All the pats did was to simple reverse the above.  They fielded 6 Ys and 4 Zs and declared one of the Ys to be a Z.  It is as simple as a formation and disclosure as doing the above, it is merely in reverse.  Granted it is rare event, and thus might cause confusion and feelings of it being not right, but is because it is rare and not inherently deceptive.  Once people soak it in its not complicated.  And yes when asked on the radio BB indicated that the Pats have defensive game plans in place to counter act this play, altho he did not disclose what the plans were.

 

For me a simply game plan would be to tell my players if you see 6 small/thin guys (6Ys) and 4 Bigs (4Zs) wait for which one of the Y says he is a Z and do not cover him, basically ignore hime.   Surely there are many other game plans that can be drawn up, I just added my as an example.

 

But bottom line if a defense can handle to change of a Z to a Y they can handle the change of a Y to a Z.  In the former you need to pay attention to that player as he is now eligible in the latter you can simply ignore him as he is no longer eligible.  Just wait for the number to be declared and adjust, if they can do it for the former they can do if for the latter.

 

As for being self evident, it well . . . is self evident. 

 

Again a basic game plan would be to tell your player to ignore the Y who was converted to a Z.  So if you and I are coaches and we give our players at least that simply situational game plan we have the following observation of number 47.

 

1) Number 47 is a Y

2) Number 34 was called to be the Y that is now a Z (i.e. 47 aint 34 so he retains his Y status)

3) Number 47 is off the line of scrimmage and is not covered

4) Based on the open facts on the field and over the PA system in items 1, 2 and 3,  47 = eligible.

 

If our defenders can not see that it is self evidence that 47 is still eligible even though we told him only ignore the one Y that was converted, then our defender is playing checkers while the opponent is playing chess. 

 

Bottom line it was self evident that 47 was eligible and all that the pats did was take a common play and reverse it.  Yes it is new but not anything that is deceptive. 

 

Although I have not confirmed this myself, but I heard Peter King on the local radio today indicated that he watched the game again and heard on two of the occasions that the time between the announcement of the ineligible player and the snap is 7 seconds and on one occasion and 10 seconds.  Plenty of time seeing that the play clock is only 40 seconds.  Indeed, I am not sure if that much time is given when they announce the eligible lineman and the snap.   Yes it was new but it was not deceptive or complicated, just new.  

 

Are you serious?

 

 

All I'm saying is that, with the benefit of hindsight, of course it's obvious who was eligible. That doesn't mean it can't and shouldn't be announced beforehand.

[NewColtsFan]

Lol. The Lions and Caldwell ran the same thing earlier this year. I doubt anyone called him a genius. Then again, BB did invent football.

 

Link?

 

I don't recall this.     And I don't recall seeing this reported in any of the stories covering the Pats/Ravens.

 

Is there something I can read on the claim about the Lions?

 

Edit:   Never mind.   I've found the story.    The Lions didn't run the same thing.    But something somewhat similar to it.    Bellicick says this is where they got the idea.    Here's the story.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4776177/another-nfl-team-used-four-offensive-linemen-set

[Bluefire4]

Lol. The Lions and Caldwell ran the same thing earlier this year. I doubt anyone called him a genius. Then again, BB did invent football.

I was talking about when he did it and the situation. 

[-JJ-]

 

 

Bottom line it was self evident that 47 was eligible and all that the pats did was take a common play and reverse it.  Yes it is new but not anything that is deceptive. 

 

<snip>

Well  that was a great explanation that even I can understand   thx

[amfootball]

Are you serious?

 

 

All I'm saying is that, with the benefit of hindsight, of course it's obvious who was eligible. That doesn't mean it can't and shouldn't be announced beforehand.

Are you saying eligible players should be announced? They why have formations at all or men in motion or shifts? The whole point of the offensive formation is to NOT make it obvious to the defense what is about to happen. It is on the Ravens defense to figure out the alignment and adjust accordingly. Vareen being ineligible was announced and that was the only thing that needed to happen on those plays. The ref handled it correctly now if the NFL wants to somehow adjust the amount of time between the announcement and the snap of the ball then fine. I seriously doubt anything will change though.

[PickFor6]

ne is always looking too bend the rules are break them . they don,t care about honor too play football are respecting it too them all about money and the win. as they say karma a + .

Lol!!

100% within the rules, even that slimeball Harbaugh retracted his comments and said he had no problem with the Pats running the play, his beef was that he felt the refs mishandled the mechanics of it.

This is a non issue, intelligent football play by the Pats.. but come over to Colt land and you'll read stuff like this lol

I hope they use it against The Colts for a game winning TD

[PickFor6]

I'd like to take you at your word and believe you, but you'll need to post some type of proof in order for your assertion to be considered correct. I previously posted a news article stating Harbaugh it was much quicker than that and the Refs agreed they needed to allow time to identify the players for coverage. So evidence leans that direction for the time being.

Defenses by rule get to adjust to substitutions by an offense, not necessarily formations; unless the formations required substitutions (which these did).

"“It's a substitution type of a trick type of thing,” Harbaugh said. “So they don't give you the opportunity. They don't give you a chance to make the proper substitutions and things like that. It’s not something that anybody’s ever done before. The league will look at that type of thing, and I’m sure that they’ll make some adjustments and things like that."

"The Patriots had gone to four offensive linemen after center Bryan Stork left the game with a right knee injury, lining up with tight end Michael Hoomanawanui at left tackle as an eligible receiver and running back Shane Vereen reporting as an ineligible receiver. The Patriots would snap the football as soon as the ineligible receiver was announced, using the configuration on three plays."

These are direct quotes from here-

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/ravens-insider/bal-baltimore-ravens-coach-john-harbaugh-tries-to-stop-new-england-patriots-deception-with-penalty-20150110-story.html

That doesn't appear to prove your 7-10 seconds response. If it is true, you should be able to find the information from a credible source and we can put it to bed as John Harbaugh having a Jim Harbaugh moment.

I love this mentality from people here. It wasn't a violation of any rule, the Nfl said it was fine, Harbaugh 2 days later said it was fine, your own coach said it was fine, and posters have done their homework and gave you even further proof that it was infact fine..

Then you suggest that other people have to spend their time gathering up more evidence and put it into a power point presentation for you because you don't think it's fine...

The burden of proof is on YOU, so why don't YOU go find some evidence to support your incorrect claim that it was an illegal, dirty play that the nfl, coaches and media all disagree with you on

[PickFor6]

My issue is that 2 lineman are not line up within 1 yard of the line of scrimmage (as is always the case). 63 & 76 both line up more than 1 yard off the ball.

The issue was not with the offensive lineman, they wear ineligible numbers and would had to declare if they were. . They lined up where they always do and are a non issue in this discussion.

Because the rule is that the last person on the line (within 1 yard) is eligible it makes it difficult to tell who is technically on the line.

You can figure this out by the player, in this case Vereen, declaring as ineligible. With him ineligible, that makes Hoomanawanui the eligible WR by default because he's at the end of the line.

pats execute superior coaching and strategy,get a win .

Fixed that for you.

In the end, it's because Harbaugh was not prepared. He didn't want to study that because he didn't think it was on the test, then got burned for it, period.

The Patriots played their butts off and had to pull out every single trick they had in the play book to mount their comeback. It was excellent preperation and execution, but you'll still find haters here suggesting that they're cheating, which the mods should do something about because those claims are completely baseless and have been factual proven incorrect by the NFL Competition Committee

Yet the slander and false accusations are allowed to be flung all over the place.

At least Pagano is respectable, he did his homework and publicly stated that it's perfectly within the rules and that the Colts will just need to STUDY and be PREPARED to deal with those sub groups and formations. Harbaugh did neither and he got burned for it. That's a credit to the Patriots for employing gadget plays with success in an important game, so stop trying to discredit them and suggest that they're dirty cheaters when they were clearly not

[ColtsBlueFL]

Are you saying eligible players should be announced? They why have formations at all or men in motion or shifts? The whole point of the offensive formation is to NOT make it obvious to the defense what is about to happen. It is on the Ravens defense to figure out the alignment and adjust accordingly. Vareen being ineligible was announced and that was the only thing that needed to happen on those plays. The ref handled it correctly now if the NFL wants to somehow adjust the amount of time between the announcement and the snap of the ball then fine. I seriously doubt anything will change though.

 

It has nothing to do with formation.  It has everything to do with allowing the defense "reasonable time" to install their own substitutions. This is based upon what package the O sends in. It is a rule already on the books, so can't be ignored. OTOH, I think a coach can prepare for it now.  If a team sends out an illegal number of eligible receivers, cover up all eligible numbers; which are numbers1-49 and 80-89. As soon as ineligible player is announced, his defense guy slides down the line of scrimmage toward the ball and he blitzes the QB at the snap. If ineligible guys defender is one of the best defenders on the D, he swaps with the nearest lesser effective cover guy and have him jump on the D line without a blocker in front of him and have him blitz the QB. Forces the O to find somebody to block him, probably have to be the ineligible guy.

 

You keep making it a formation issue when it is really a substitution issue.  That's where you get hung up.

[amfootball]

It has nothing to do with formation.  It has everything to do with allowing the defense "reasonable time" to install their own substitutions. This is based upon what package the O sends in. It is a rule already on the books, so can't be ignored. OTOH, I think a coach can prepare for it now.  If a team sends out an illegal number of eligible receivers, cover up all eligible numbers; which are numbers1-49 and 80-89. As soon as ineligible player is announced, his defense guy slides down the line of scrimmage toward the ball and he blitzes the QB at the snap. If his defender is one of the best defenders on the D, swap with the least effective cover guy and have him jump on the D line without a blocker in front of him and have him blitz the QB. Forces the O to find somebody to block him, probably have to be the ineligible guy.

 

You keep making it a formation issue when it is really a substitution issue.  That's where you get hung up.

I was responding to Superman not you. His post read to me that he thought the officials should have announced Hooman in addition to Vareen even though Hooman was wearing an eligible number and lined up in an eligible spot.

[jvan1973]

I don't speak Spanish

reading his posts is like reading a telegram from someone low on cash

[jvan1973]

Lol!!

100% within the rules, even that slimeball Harbaugh retracted his comments and said he had no problem with the Pats running the play, his beef was that he felt the refs mishandled the mechanics of it.

This is a non issue, intelligent football play by the Pats.. but come over to Colt land and you'll read stuff like this lol

I hope they use it against The Colts for a game winning TD

Good thing Saban and Belichick are friends. That saban guy is crafty

[ColtsBlueFL]

I love this mentality from people here. It wasn't a violation of any rule, the Nfl said it was fine, Harbaugh 2 days later said it was fine, your own coach said it was fine, and posters have done their homework and gave you even further proof that it was infact fine..

Then you suggest that other people have to spend their time gathering up more evidence and put it into a power point presentation for you because you don't think it's fine...

The burden of proof is on YOU, so why don't YOU go find some evidence to support your incorrect claim that it was an illegal, dirty play that the nfl, coaches and media all disagree with you on

 

Wow, look at bold you!  Now the burden is on you to back up that assertion I have never claimed that it was an illegal, dirty play!  Retract your statement now else otherwise show your proof, or be known as a lying troll stirring up trouble.

 

I'll even be generous and do your homework for you. Here are my most relevant posts on the matter. Feel free to use them or any other you can find to prove that   I   claim it is an illegal, dirty play, as you state.

 

http://forums.colts.com/topic/34655-surprise-pats-play-fast-and-loose-with-the-rules/page-2?p=996931#entry996931

http://forums.colts.com/topic/34655-surprise-pats-play-fast-and-loose-with-the-rules/page-2?p=996933#entry996933

http://forums.colts.com/topic/34655-surprise-pats-play-fast-and-loose-with-the-rules/page-3?p=997105#entry997105

http://forums.colts.com/topic/34655-surprise-pats-play-fast-and-loose-with-the-rules/page-4?p=1002267#entry1002267

http://forums.colts.com/topic/34655-surprise-pats-play-fast-and-loose-with-the-rules/page-5?p=1003033#entry1003033

http://forums.colts.com/topic/34655-surprise-pats-play-fast-and-loose-with-the-rules/page-5?p=1003033#entry1003033

 

These posts were part of a discussion why Harbaugh might have felt the need to take a penalty, and what may be looked at in the future, both X and O wise and from a rules committee standpoint.  Its why the forum exists.

Somehow I get the feeling mine and your posts may get the delete treatment, but I won't stand for you calling me out on claims I never made.

[Yehoodi]

Are you serious?

 

 

All I'm saying is that, with the benefit of hindsight, of course it's obvious who was eligible. That doesn't mean it can't and shouldn't be announced beforehand.

 

Are you serious?

 

You are not seriously saying that the Pats have to announce that Homan is eligible?  If so you are missing the entire point of my post.  Its football where formations and location of players is where it is at in the sport and it is one of the things that teams do to try to throw off the opponent.   Been going on for years.

 

The reason why I went throw my post is to show the simplicity of what they did, a mere reversal of a common act (eligible lineman) which has been going on for years and is accepted and can be easily defended and ascertained by the defense without any further fuss or requirement by the offense other than the single announcement of the eligible lineman. 

 

When there is 6 eligible players on the field and one is announced that he is ineligible, which happened in our game, there is nothing more that needs to be done, because the defense knows who the eligible players are, i.e. the other 5.  That is the only information that they need.  If one happens to be lined up in the offense tackle location, that is the fault of the defense as they are on notice that he is eligible.   You don't need to tell the defense he is eligible because they have been told he is eligible and they better cover him are be prepared for him going out for a pass regardless of where he is lined up.  And if he is lined up at the left tackle position then it the fault of the defense for falling asleep on the matter.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I was responding to Superman not you. His post read to me that he thought the officials should have announced Hooman in addition to Vareen even though Hooman was wearing an eligible number and lined up in an eligible spot.

 

OH, ok. If that's indeed your issue I concur.  I a player has 1-49, or 80-89 on, then he is eligible by default.  Treat as all of them such until any is declared not..  If he doesn't line up properly or if too may eligible numbers are out there (one does not declare ineligible) at the snap, then it's on the refs to call a penalty.

[Superman]

Are you saying eligible players should be announced? They why have formations at all or men in motion or shifts? The whole point of the offensive formation is to NOT make it obvious to the defense what is about to happen. It is on the Ravens defense to figure out the alignment and adjust accordingly. Vareen being ineligible was announced and that was the only thing that needed to happen on those plays. The ref handled it correctly now if the NFL wants to somehow adjust the amount of time between the announcement and the snap of the ball then fine. I seriously doubt anything will change though.

Are you serious?

 

You are not seriously saying that the Pats have to announce that Homan is eligible?  If so you are missing the entire point of my post.  Its football where formations and location of players is where it is at in the sport and it is one of the things that teams do to try to throw off the opponent.   Been going on for years.

 

The reason why I went throw my post is to show the simplicity of what they did, a mere reversal of a common act (eligible lineman) which has been going on for years and is accepted and can be easily defended and ascertained by the defense without any further fuss or requirement by the offense other than the single announcement of the eligible lineman. 

 

When there is 6 eligible players on the field and one is announced that he is ineligible, which happened in our game, there is nothing more that needs to be done, because the defense knows who the eligible players are, i.e. the other 5.  That is the only information that they need.  If one happens to be lined up in the offense tackle location, that is the fault of the defense as they are on notice that he is eligible.   You don't need to tell the defense he is eligible because they have been told he is eligible and they better cover him are be prepared for him going out for a pass regardless of where he is lined up.  And if he is lined up at the left tackle position then it the fault of the defense for falling asleep on the matter.

 

You're getting defensive, and there's no need. I haven't accused the Patriots of anything.

 

My initial point was simple: I think the league should require players to declare, regardless of number, if they line up in a normally ineligible position. And I use the word "normally" because, to my limited knowledge, an eligible player has lined up two spots over from center only four times this season. Out of 20,000 offensive plays. Let's say it's happened 200 times this season, that's still just 1%. The math says this isn't normal. 

 

In the pursuit of fair play, I think it makes sense to adjust the need to declare. When an offense uses a 6OL formation, they declare the eligible player in an ineligible number. The Pats did the exact opposite. It's confusing. Just because we can look at it with replay and figure it out doesn't mean that it's self evident or easy to figure out. That's pretty naive. 

 

Once upon a time, the NFL didn't require the offense to give the defense a fair chance to substitute. That rule has been changed. Again, I'm not saying the Pats did anything wrong. I'm simply saying that the league should require eligible players in ineligible spots to declare, and that will get rid of the confusion.

[GoPats]

reading his posts is like reading a telegram from someone low on cash

 

I LOL'd... I've only got four bucks, that gets me, what, like seven words?  ;)

[HoggHannah]

 

You're getting defensive, and there's no need. I haven't accused the Patriots of anything.

 

My initial point was simple: I think the league should require players to declare, regardless of number, if they line up in a normally ineligible position. And I use the word "normally" because, to my limited knowledge, an eligible player has lined up two spots over from center only four times this season. Out of 20,000 offensive plays. Let's say it's happened 200 times this season, that's still just 1%. The math says this isn't normal. 

 

 

Why would a TE who is normally eligible have to declare that he is eligible?  Due to the shifted line, that makes him the 6th man on the line (TE eligible by default), and he has an appropriate number.  Not say, a #60 OL number that needs to be declared, because he is normally not eligible.  By your reasoning, every down man on the line regardless if they are normally a TE would need to declare.  This makes no sense, and is not needed.

[amfootball]

 

You're getting defensive, and there's no need. I haven't accused the Patriots of anything.

 

My initial point was simple: I think the league should require players to declare, regardless of number, if they line up in a normally ineligible position. And I use the word "normally" because, to my limited knowledge, an eligible player has lined up two spots over from center only four times this season. Out of 20,000 offensive plays. Let's say it's happened 200 times this season, that's still just 1%. The math says this isn't normal. 

 

In the pursuit of fair play, I think it makes sense to adjust the need to declare. When an offense uses a 6OL formation, they declare the eligible player in an ineligible number. The Pats did the exact opposite. It's confusing. Just because we can look at it with replay and figure it out doesn't mean that it's self evident or easy to figure out. That's pretty naive. 

 

Once upon a time, the NFL didn't require the offense to give the defense a fair chance to substitute. That rule has been changed. Again, I'm not saying the Pats did anything wrong. I'm simply saying that the league should require eligible players in ineligible spots to declare, and that will get rid of the confusion.

No one is defensive but the idea that an eligible player needs to be declared eligible because of they are not lined in a normal position seems to go against the nature of the sport where offensive formations are designed to keep the defense off-balance. Just because it is not normal does not mean the defense should get a tip off so they can better defend it. More time to recognize it maybe but not an announcement of any sort IMO. I mean if we do that then we should have the refs announce that Edelman was going to throw a pass on the TD to Amendola as after all WRs don't typically throw passes. The element of surprise is the offenses biggest weapon.

[Superman]

Why would a TE who is normally eligible have to declare that he is eligible?  Due to the shifted line, that makes him the 6th man on the line (TE eligible by default), and he has an appropriate number.  Not say, a #60 OL number that needs to be declared, because he is normally not eligible.  By your reasoning, every down man on the line regardless if they are normally a TE would need to declare.  This makes no sense, and is not needed.

 

I don't understand why people refuse to just read what I wrote. 

 

I think an eligible player lined up in a normally ineligible spot should have to declare, regardless of his jersey number. I did NOT say that every down man should have to declare. If they aren't eligible, then they have nothing to do with anything. If they are eligible, but aren't wearing an eligible number, they have to declare anyways. I'm talking about the 0.02% of times this season where a player in a normally ineligible spot was eligible. 

 

Edit: Also, in this particular case, #47 was NOT the 6th man on the line, because the Pats only used 4 linemen. 

[Superman]

No one is defensive but the idea that an eligible player needs to be declared eligible because of they are not lined in a normal position seems to go against the nature of the sport where offensive formations are designed to keep the defense off-balance. Just because it is not normal does not mean the defense should get a tip off so they can better defend it. More time to recognize it maybe but not an announcement of any sort IMO. I mean if we do that then we should have the refs announce that Edelman was going to throw a pass on the TD to Amendola as after all WRs don't typically throw passes. The element of surprise is the offenses biggest weapon.

 

Offensive formations can be whatever they want, but normally, it's obvious by number which of the 11 players on the field are eligible. 

[amfootball]

Offensive formations can be whatever they want, but normally, it's obvious by number which of the 11 players on the field are eligible. 

Agreed which is why I say more time for recognition perhaps but def. not any type of declaration. I really don't think the competition committee will do anything with this in the off-season. The minutia is ridiculous and in the end it is the coaches job to have his team prepared for anything.

[Superman]

Agreed which is why I say more time for recognition perhaps but def. not any type of declaration. I really don't think the competition committee will do anything with this in the off-season. The minutia is ridiculous and in the end it is the coaches job to have his team prepared for anything.

 

As I said to begin with, I don't think it's a big deal. But, unlike a normal formation, putting an eligible player in that spot is basically hiding who all is eligible. That's against the spirit of the rule, IMO. And as far as we know, this is the only time it's happened in this way. 

 

It's like Swinging Gate, like I said. Except in Swinging Gate, you know exactly who is eligible and who isn't eligible. 

 

Yes, the defense should have figured it out, but let's not use the benefit of hindsight to act like this should have been so simple at the time. If you believe Harbaugh, even the refs didn't understand it yet. 

 

Again, I'm not making a fuss. I simply offered my opinion of what I think should change, moving forward.

[HoggHannah]

I don't understand why people refuse to just read what I wrote. 

 

I think an eligible player lined up in a normally ineligible spot should have to declare, regardless of his jersey number. I did NOT say that every down man should have to declare. If they aren't eligible, then they have nothing to do with anything. If they are eligible, but aren't wearing an eligible number, they have to declare anyways. I'm talking about the 0.02% of times this season where a player in a normally ineligible spot was eligible. 

 

Edit: Also, in this particular case, #47 was NOT the 6th man on the line, because the Pats only used 4 linemen. 

 

We read you, but you are incorrect.  There are no such thing as "eligible or ineligible spots".  I think it's this concept that you do not understand.  A player is either on the line as part of the ineligible five or he is not and is eligible.  Hooman is a TE.  He is normally lined up at the end of the line as a TE, and is normally eligible and has an eligible number.  

 

The thing that is different is that there are only 4 down lineman beside him which would make him ineligible if there were only four  other total players on the line. This is not the case, Vereen declares himself on the line as ineligible as part of the OL, Hooman sets up in his spot as a TE.  When Vereen reports as ineligible this makes #47 (Hoomanawanui) the 6th man.

 

It's really not hard to understand and I think you are trying to pick at a straw man to find something wrong with the play.  As pointed out by several others here, you are incorrect.  Heck, even the Ravens fan on the board admits it's legal. 

 

Lastly, 7 sec is way more than enough time for the D to recognize something is amiss and either call a TO or audible to a short zone.

 

Edit:  The refs were told about this formation pre-game and weren't "confused"- they did what they were supposed to and even on the third play tried to help the Ravens.  There were only 12 people confused that day.  The Raven's 11 and Harbaugh.

Edited January 14, 2015 by HoggHannah

[amfootball]

As I said to begin with, I don't think it's a big deal. But, unlike a normal formation, putting an eligible player in that spot is basically hiding who all is eligible. That's against the spirit of the rule, IMO. And as far as we know, this is the only time it's happened in this way. 

 

It's like Swinging Gate, like I said. Except in Swinging Gate, you know exactly who is eligible and who isn't eligible. 

 

Yes, the defense should have figured it out, but let's not use the benefit of hindsight to act like this should have been so simple at the time. If you believe Harbaugh, even the refs didn't understand it yet. 

 

Again, I'm not making a fuss. I simply offered my opinion of what I think should change, moving forward.

It is not hiding anything as Vareen was declared ineligible making him the 5th lineman. Hooman was in an eligible spot but he appeared like a lineman because of the 4 lineman and Vareen split out. There was no hiding of anything once Vareen was announced. And just because the refs were confused is no reason to go to the extent you are saying. The refs need to know the rules as well as the coaches if not more so.  Again, exotic formations is part of football and the offenses ability to surprise and confuse is its best weapon. You can't limit that just because something does not look "normal."

[Superman]

We read you, but you are incorrect.  There are no such thing as "eligible or ineligible spots".  I think it's this concept that you do not understand.  A player is either on the line as part of the ineligible five or he is not and is eligible.  Hooman is a TE.  He is normally lined up at the end of the line as a TE, and is normally eligible and has an eligible number.  

 

The thing that is different is that there are only 4 down lineman beside him which would make him ineligible if there were only four  other total players on the line. This is not the case, Vereen declares himself on the line as ineligible as part of the OL, Hooman sets up in his spot as a TE.  When Vereen reports as ineligible this makes #47 (Hoomanawanui) the 6th man.

 

It's really not hard to understand and I think you are trying to pick at a straw man to find something wrong with the play.  As pointed out by several others here, you are incorrect.  Heck, even the Ravens fan on the board admits it's legal. 

 

Lastly, 7 sec is way more than enough time for the D to recognize something is amiss and either call a TO or audible to a short zone.

 

Good heavens... I'm not trying to pick at anything. I never claimed the play wasn't legal. So thanks for that, it makes it very obvious that either you didn't read what I wrote, or are just content to misrepresent my stance.

 

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/8_2013_Players_Subs_Equip_GeneralRules.pdf

 

Section 3 Changes in Position

REPORTING CHANGE OF POSITION

Article 1 An offensive player wearing the number of an ineligible pass receiver (50–79 and 90–99) is permitted to line up in

the position of an eligible pass receiver (1–49 and 80–89), and an offensive player wearing the number of an eligible pass

receiver is permitted to line up in the position of an ineligible pass receiver, provided that he immediately reports the

change in his eligibility status to the Referee, who will inform the defensive team.

He must participate in such eligible or ineligible position as long as he is continuously in the game, but prior to each play he

must again report his status to the Referee, who will inform the defensive team. The game clock shall not be stopped, and

the ball shall not be put in play until the Referee takes his normal position.

RETURNING TO ORIGINAL POSITION

Article 2 A player who has reported a change in his eligibility status to the Referee is permitted to return to a position

indicated by the eligibility status of his number after:

 (a) a team time out;

 (b) the end of a quarter;

 © the two-minute warning;

 (d) a foul;

 (e) a replay challenge;

 (f) a touchdown;

 (g) a completed kick from scrimmage;

 (h) a change of possession; or

 (i) if the player has been withdrawn for one legal snap. A player withdrawn for one legal snap may re-enter at a position

indicated by the eligibility status of his number, unless he again reports to the Referee that he is assuming a position

other than that designated by the eligibility status of his number.

Penalty: If a player fails to notify the Referee of a change in his status when required: Loss of five yards for illegal

substitution.

A.R. 5.1 Offensive tackle A1 is legally shifted to the backfield and is then withdrawn. He returns before the next snap to a tackle

position.

Ruling: Illegal. He must stay out one play, unless there is a team time out. See 5-3-2

 

 

The spirit of the rule is very clear. 

[Superman]

It is not hiding anything as Vareen was declared ineligible making him the 5th lineman. Hooman was in an eligible spot but he appeared like a lineman because of the 4 lineman and Vareen split out. There was no hiding of anything once Vareen was announced. And just because the refs were confused is no reason to go to the extent you are saying. The refs need to know the rules as well as the coaches if not more so.  Again, exotic formations is part of football and the offenses ability to surprise and confuse is its best weapon. You can't limit that just because something does not look "normal."

 

It's absolutely hiding him. The whole purpose of the alignment is to use misdirection and cause confusion.

 

And again, I'm not suggesting anything be limited or removed from the game. I simply said that I think he should have to report.