Surprise! Pats play fast and loose with the rules!

[Superman]

The WR pass should have been called back for a penalty as well. 

 

Why?

 

Slightly related, is it true that Julian Edelman is the Pats best deep ball passer?

[Dustin]

Why?

 

 

 

 

Slightly related, is it true that Julian Edelman is the Pats best deep ball passer?

 

 

 

No doubt. 

[Superman]

This is what a smart coach does, http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/12156297/chuck-pagano-indianapolis-colts-consults-nfl-baltimore-ravens-new-england-patriots-alignment

 

Good for Pagano for ferreting this out before the Denver game. Too bad he didn't realize that Fox will never be as smart as Belichick. lol.

 

From your link:

 

Pagano made a call to NFL head of officiating Dean Blandino on Sunday morning, just hours before the Colts played Denver in their divisional playoff game, so his team would be prepared in case the Broncos tried to do something similar.

 

 

Credit to Pagano. That's good preparation.

[Superman]

 

 

 

No doubt. 

 

Ineligible receiver downfield? The way the Pats were lining up, that guy might have been eligible... I think that's the center, though, so probably not. 

 

Thing is, they usually don't call that penalty unless the player is blocking someone, or setting up to block someone. 

[BOTT]

This is what a smart coach does, http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/12156297/chuck-pagano-indianapolis-colts-consults-nfl-baltimore-ravens-new-england-patriots-alignment

 

Good for Pagano for ferreting this out before the Denver game. Too bad he didn't realize that Fox will never be as smart as Belichick. lol.

You mean Lane Kiffin? Lol

[Dustin]

Ineligible receiver downfield? The way the Pats were lining up, that guy might have been eligible... I think that's the center, though, so probably not. 

 

Thing is, they usually don't call that penalty unless the player is blocking someone, or setting up to block someone. 

 

I wouldn't really care on any other play if it wasn't egregious, but on a trick play like that when everyone thinks it's a run, pretty much has to be called IMO. 

[Superman]

I wouldn't really care on any other play if it wasn't egregious, but on a trick play like that when everyone thinks it's a run, pretty much has to be called IMO. 

 

Yeah, I can't tell from the snapshot. I'll probably rewatch that game at some point this week. Letter of the law, it looks like a penalty.

[amfootball]

I wouldn't really care on any other play if it wasn't egregious, but on a trick play like that when everyone thinks it's a run, pretty much has to be called IMO. 

I don't believe the officials called one offensive holding all game despite blatant holding by both lines. They pretty much let the players play other than the defensive holding and PI and I think the Ravens had a couple of block in the backs on kick returns.

[ViriLudant]

The eligible player lined up in an ineligible spot didn't declare. Not on the one big play up the middle to the TE.

Yes.

He did.

All three times.

[ViriLudant]

Did they actually gain yardage on it more than the one time?

Just to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with what they did. But I do think everyone should have to report -- both the eligible player lined up in the ineligible spot, and the player made ineligible -- and I think the refs should announce it over the PA so both sidelines can hear it. I don't think that happened in this case. Let me know if I missed it.

All were reported. Everyone in the stadium heard each one. It's been reported all over the place.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Good luck with that then. Doubt they do much with the rule. It is not the offenses responsibility to let the defense try to figure things out.

 

Not the offense, but will become the Refs.  The Refs already stand over the ball when an O subs, until the D has as well.  So I guess we'll see when the new rules for 2015 in a few months after the competition committee takes it on and the owners ratify it.

 

Right now, there is nothing in the rules that can allow a ref to do that, so teams must be prepared.

[amfootball]

Not the offense, but will become the Refs.  The Refs already stand over the ball when an O subs, until the D has as well.  So I guess we'll see when the new rules for 2015 in a few months after the competition committee takes it on and the owners ratify it.

Formations though are different from subbing. And the Pats are hardly the first team to do exotic formations but they did do something that the NFL had not seen before so they may do something with the ref but that would seem to go against the nature of the sport IMO.

[Bluefire4]

I see no problem with this call at all. More genius from Bill Belichick for bringing in something no one has seemed before. He used that and the trick play with Edleman at the best moment.. well maybe not the best moment because now the Colts can gameplan against it.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Formations though are different from subbing. And the Pats are hardly the first team to do exotic formations but they did do something that the NFL had not seen before so they may do something with the ref but that would seem to go against the nature of the sport IMO.

 

They didn't 'just happen to have ' 6 players with eligible jersey numbers on their backs  without substituting, and then declaring one ineligible.  You can't ever have 6 eligible numbers on the field without declaring one ineligible.  They only did it 3 times, so there had to be a substitution to do so.  Right? So....

[Superman]

All were reported. Everyone in the stadium heard each one. It's been reported all over the place.

 

Were you there? Because I'm watching the broadcast, and I can hear an announcement, but can't make it out. Collinsworth is talking over it.

 

And what Belichick said is that the ineligible player reported he was ineligible -- which we all saw on the pass play to #47 -- but he didn't say anything about the eligible player being identified. 

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/12150444/2014-15-nfl-playoffs-league-says-new-england-patriots-substitutions-vs-baltimore-ravens-legal

 

"It's a play that we thought would work," Belichick said. "We ran it three times, a couple different looks. We had six eligible receivers on the field, but only five were eligible. The one who was ineligible reported that he was ineligible. No different than on the punt team or a situation like that."

 

 

So if you can point me to a report of someone who heard the announcement from the refs before that play, that would be awesome. All these only say they announced the ineligible player.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/patriots-lineman-formation-2015-1

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/12/nfl-playoffs-cowboys-packers-dez-bryant-replay-catch-peyton-manning-retirement/7/

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nfl-divisional-cowboys-packers-panthers-seahawks-colts-broncos-patriots-ravens/

[ViriLudant]

Were you there? Because I'm watching the broadcast, and I can hear an announcement, but can't make it out. Collinsworth is talking over it.

And what Belichick said is that the ineligible player reported he was ineligible -- which we all saw on the pass play to #47 -- but he didn't say anything about the eligible player being identified.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/12150444/2014-15-nfl-playoffs-league-says-new-england-patriots-substitutions-vs-baltimore-ravens-legal

So if you can point me to a report of someone who heard the announcement from the refs before that play, that would be awesome. All these only say they announced the ineligible player.

http://www.businessinsider.com/patriots-lineman-formation-2015-1

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/12/nfl-playoffs-cowboys-packers-dez-bryant-replay-catch-peyton-manning-retirement/7/

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nfl-divisional-cowboys-packers-panthers-seahawks-colts-broncos-patriots-ravens/

Whoa, why do the normal eligibles have to report?

The refs not only reported the ineligibles, they even told the defense not to defend them !!

[Superman]

Whoa, why do the normal eligibles have to report?

The refs not only reported the ineligibles, they even told the defense not to defend them !!

 

So I guess you didn't understand what I said originally. http://forums.colts.com/topic/34655-surprise-pats-play-fast-and-loose-with-the-rules/?p=1002050

 

#47 was lined up two spots over from center, normally an ineligible spot. My point was that I think if an eligible player is lined up in a spot where he'd normally be ineligible, he should have to report, and it should be announced.

 

The Colts ran a tackle eligible play against the Pats this year, where LT Anthony Castonzo lined up in his normal tackle spot, but declared himself eligible. He had to because he wears an ineligible number. What the Pats did is a variation of that alignment, but they got around #47 having to declare because he already wears an eligible number. I understand the beef with that, and I think they should fix it.

 

I'm not dogging the Pats for exploiting it, but it's a strange situation. Technically, any of the "linemen" aside from the center could have been eligible. That kind of okey-doke is counter to the spirit of the eligible reporting rule to begin with.

[jabbanobadda]

I credit Belichick.  He does what he has to do to win with inferior talent...bravo!

[da_pats_troll]

So I guess you didn't understand what I said originally. http://forums.colts.com/topic/34655-surprise-pats-play-fast-and-loose-with-the-rules/?p=1002050

 

#47 was lined up two spots over from center, normally an ineligible spot. My point was that I think if an eligible player is lined up in a spot where he'd normally be ineligible, he should have to report, and it should be announced.

 

The Colts ran a tackle eligible play against the Pats this year, where LT Anthony Castonzo lined up in his normal tackle spot, but declared himself eligible. He had to because he wears an ineligible number. What the Pats did is a variation of that alignment, but they got around #47 having to declare because he already wears an eligible number. I understand the beef with that, and I think they should fix it.

 

I'm not dogging the Pats for exploiting it, but it's a strange situation. Technically, any of the "linemen" aside from the center could have been eligible. That kind of okey-doke is counter to the spirit of the eligible reporting rule to begin with.

 

I'm not 100% sure, but hooman was not covered by a receiver on that side (IIRC), so he did not have to declare?

[Superman]

I'm not 100% sure, but hooman was not covered by a receiver on that side (IIRC), so he did not have to declare?

There were two receivers on that side, but both were off the line. Still, it's an exploitation of the rule.

[amfootball]

They didn't 'just happen to have ' 6 players with eligible jersey numbers on their backs  without substituting, and then declaring one ineligible.  You can't ever have 6 eligible numbers on the field without declaring one ineligible.  They only did it 3 times, so there had to be a substitution to do so.  Right? So....

You know that is a great question. I am going to have go back and look but I believe all they did was trot one lineman off the field each time and then have the eligible player declare himself ineligible. When I watched the game live, I honestly did not even notice because I don't remember seeing a lot of players shuffling on and off the field. The Ravens had plenty of time to substitute but the key was that as soon as the ref announced the ineligible player, Brady walked up the line and hiked it and that is what had Harbaugh so mad. He felt he should have had more time to recognize things but there is nothing in the rules that says the offense has to give the defense time to recognize its formation. Like I said, the Pats are hardly the first team to do exotic formations and if you allow defense time to study the formation then I believe you are going against the nature of the sport.

[ColtsBlueFL]

You know that is a great question. I am going to have go back and look but I believe all they did was trot one lineman off the field each time and then have the eligible player declare himself ineligible. When I watched the game live, I honestly did not even notice because I don't remember seeing a lot of players shuffling on and off the field. The Ravens had plenty of time to substitute but the key was that as soon as the ref announced the ineligible player, Brady walked up the line and hiked it and that is what had Harbaugh so mad. He felt he should have had more time to recognize things but there is nothing in the rules that says the offense has to give the defense time to recognize its formation. Like I said, the Pats are hardly the first team to do exotic formations and if you allow defense time to study the formation then I believe you are going against the nature of the sport.

 

No question the bright thinkers look for an advantage and take it.  Typically those stay legal and become what is known as 'gadget' plays.  The only problem here is this one conflicts with situations and rules already in place.

 

The way I see it (and John Harbaugh) is an offense can make the substitution and place 6 eligible numbers in a legal position on (or 1 yard off) the lie as necessary.  Then ineligible declares himself and Ref has responsibility to communicate it.  But if the O is then given the chance to quickly line up and snap the ball following, then you have forced the D to line up and provided defensive cover when one defender would normally be available for another assignment (blitz, double team, etc...).

 

I guess the response is if you're lined up with a guy on the line, and there is a wideout outside of him on the line, is to recognize that the Ref is about to call your guy ineligible so look like you're going to cover, but make a bee line sprint unabated to the QB and unload on him if possible. Put yourself back into a useful D capacity again.

 

I do see it being reviewed and tweaked in the off season.

[amfootball]

No question the bright thinkers look for an advantage and take it.  Typically those stay legal and become what is known as 'gadget' plays.  The only problem here is this one conflicts with situations and rules already in place.

 

The way I see it (and John Harbaugh) is an offense can make the substitution and place 6 eligible numbers in a legal position on (or 1 yard off) the lie as necessary.  Then ineligible declares himself and Ref has responsibility to communicate it.  But if the O is then given the chance to quickly line up and snap the ball following, then you have forced the D to line up and provided defensive cover when one defender would normally be available for another assignment (blitz, double team, etc...).

 

I guess the response is if you're lined up with a guy on the line, and there is a wideout outside of him on the line, is to recognize that the Ref is about to call your guy ineligible so look like you're going to cover, but make a bee line sprint unabated to the QB and unload on him if possible. Put yourself back into a useful D capacity again.

 

I do see it being reviewed and tweaked in the off season.

Yeah, if you can get a beat on it then you could get to the QB and that is why I think they only ran it three times. You are at risk only having four lineman in there to protect. I think it is also why no one has ever done it. It is risky but as usual Bill ran it to a tee on an important drive.

[mintor]

....  and they got away with it....

 

Here's what happened....   in the 3rd quarter,  on one of their TD drives,  the Pats pulled one of their five o-lineman and replaced him with a 6th eligible receiver.    Well, as we all know,  you can only have five eligible receivers on any one play, so on each play,  a different receiver would declare himself to be INELIGIBLE and the refs let the Pats get away with it.

 

That was the series where Harbaugh got an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for being out on the field arguing with officials.    He was complaining to the refs about this move.   He said the refs were totally confused about what was going on.

 

After the game, Harbaugh said not only has that never happened to him, he's never heard of it happening to any other team in any other game.    He believes it will be made illegal in the off-season.

 

But he's clearly not happy.....    here's the story from NFL.com

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000456365/article/john-harbaugh-pats-substitutions-deceptive-illegal

 

The Pats shrug their shoulders and say...   too bad,  it's legal.    And it technically probably is.

 

But is it in the spirit of the rule -- probably not.    So, look for this to get fixed in the off-season.

 

But it's another chapter of New England playing fast and loose with the rules....

 

And here come the Pats posters here to defend their team in 3....  2....  1....

 

 

 

ne  is always looking too bend the rules are break  them . they don,t care about honor too play football are respecting it too them all about money and the win.  as they say karma a + .

[GoPats]

According to this article, the Patriots snapped the ball immediately or nearly so once the ineligible player was identified. 

 

"lining up with tight end Michael Hoomanawanui at left tackle as an eligible receiver and running back Shane Vereen reporting as an ineligible receiver. The Patriots would snap the football as soon as the ineligible receiver was announced, using the configuration on three plays."

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/ravens-insider/bal-baltimore-ravens-coach-john-harbaugh-tries-to-stop-new-england-patriots-deception-with-penalty-

20150110-story.html

 

So while it was announced (but I say again, it was not on the broadcast to the homes in TV land), it apparently wasn't done so in time for the D captain to properly re-align the D, according to Harbaugh.  If the tape shows this, he will file a protest with the league (they never reverse scores anyway) and that will force competition committee to further revise Rule 5, article 10.  Currently, there are 3 subsections to that rule, a,b,andc.  Next year d might be added as well because what this story above says, Rule 5 Article 10 is circumvented by the (currently legal) 4 linemen formation used by Pats. Harbaugh took an unsprtsmanlike to be sure of this-

 

"“That's why I had to go and take the penalty, to get their attention so that they would understand what was going on because they didn't understand what was going on,” Harbaugh said. “And they said that was the right thing, that they'd give us a chance to ID the eligible receivers, so we could actually get them covered. That’s why guys were open, because we didn’t ID where the eligible receivers were at."

 

So it worked, but won't next year. But while this certainly helped the Pats, the Ravens should have still been able to win, IMO.

 

Good post, thanks. 

 

I suppose Harbaugh's gripe is with the refs then. They're responsible for holding up the snap until the defense has a "fair chance" to adjust, as I understand it. I think it just caught everyone, including the refs, off guard a bit. 

[GoPats]

You poor, persecuted Pats fans...

 

It's about time you recognized the plight of my people. 

[BlacknGold77]

Good post, thanks. 

 

I suppose Harbaugh's gripe is with the refs then. They're responsible for holding up the snap until the defense has a "fair chance" to adjust, as I understand it. I think it just caught everyone, including the refs, off guard a bit. 

 

why does the defense get a chance to adjust?  Thats the whole point of using deceptive formations.  If a team runs play action, the play isnt paused after the fake so the secondary can adjust...

 

btw, they ran it 3x.  Here's the time elapsed between the announcement and the snap:

 

7sec

10sec

7sec

 

nevermind the fact that even a kid playing pop warner can tell you on the line of scrimmage + covered up = ineligible and on the line of scrimmage + not covered up = eligible.

[GoPats]

The eligible player lined up in an ineligible spot didn't declare. Not on the one big play up the middle to the TE. 

 

Link?

 

I didn't think this was the case. Otherwise it would have been flagged. Every story I've read says they used the play three times, and declared it three times. 

 

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots

 

As required by rule Rule 5, Section 3, Article 1, Vereen reported himself ineligible to Vinovich and lined up in the slot to the right of the formation. The Patriots' line included only four offensive linemen, but it was a legal formation because it included five ineligible receivers. (The rule doesn't require Vereen to be tight to the line.) 

Vinovich announced to the Ravens' defense that Vereen was ineligible, as required by the same rule. According to ESPN Patriots reporter Mike Reiss, within the stadium Vinovich could even be heard to tell the Ravens defense not to cover him. At the snap, Vereen ran into the backfield as if he was going to catch a lateral pass; in truth, his "route" was a decoy. 

[GoPats]

why does the defense get a chance to adjust?  Thats the whole point of using deceptive formations.  If a team runs play action, the play isnt paused after the fake so the secondary can adjust...

 

btw, they ran it 3x.  Here's the time elapsed between the announcement and the snap:

 

7sec

10sec

7sec

 

nevermind the fact that even a kid playing pop warner can tell you on the line of scrimmage + covered up = ineligible and on the line of scrimmage + not covered up = eligible.

 

I agree with you, I just appreciated that the poster I quoted actually provided a thoughtful response. 

 

Going by the rule book, this is a substitution situation more than a formation thing. I personally think 7, 10, and 7 seconds is ample enough time for pre-snap adjustments. 

 

Overall this is, IMO, just sour grapes from Harbaugh. I like him and respect him, but he got his heiney handed to him Saturday night on more than one occasion. 

[mintor]

I agree with you, I just appreciated that the poster I quoted actually provided a thoughtful response. 

 

Going by the rule book, this is a substitution situation more than a formation thing. I personally think 7, 10, and 7 seconds is ample enough time for pre-snap adjustments. 

 

Overall this is, IMO, just sour grapes from Harbaugh. I like him and respect him, but he got his heiney handed to him Saturday night on more than one occasion. 

 

 

 

 call it was only 1 sec before snap

 not time need for the defense too react . pats know too bend the rules.  only team that does that.

[ViriLudant]

call it was only 1 sec before snap

not time need for the defense too react . pats know too bend the rules. only team that does that.

... What?

You're wrong. There was always a minimum of 7 seconds to adjust.

Or, you know, call a timeout and discuss with your defense.

[mintor]

... What?

You're wrong. There was always a minimum of 7 seconds to adjust.

Or, you know, call a timeout and discuss with your defense.

 

 

 need listen  too replay the game.

[ViriLudant]

need listen too replay the game.

Too late, already did.

[ColtsBlueFL]

why does the defense get a chance to adjust?  Thats the whole point of using deceptive formations.  If a team runs play action, the play isnt paused after the fake so the secondary can adjust...

 

btw, they ran it 3x.  Here's the time elapsed between the announcement and the snap:

 

7sec

10sec

7sec

 

nevermind the fact that even a kid playing pop warner can tell you on the line of scrimmage + covered up = ineligible and on the line of scrimmage + not covered up = eligible.

 

I'd like to take you at your word and believe you, but you'll need to post some type of proof in order for your assertion to be considered correct.  I previously posted a news article stating Harbaugh it was much quicker than that and the Refs agreed they needed to allow time to identify the players for coverage. So evidence leans that direction for the time being.

 

Defenses by rule get to adjust to substitutions by an offense, not necessarily formations; unless the formations required substitutions (which these did).

 

"“It's a substitution type of a trick type of thing,” Harbaugh said. “So they don't give you the opportunity. They don't give you a chance to make the proper substitutions and things like that. It’s not something that anybody’s ever done before. The league will look at that type of thing, and I’m sure that they’ll make some adjustments and things like that."

 

"The Patriots had gone to four offensive linemen after center Bryan Stork left the game with a right knee injury, lining up with tight end Michael Hoomanawanui at left tackle as an eligible receiver and running back Shane Vereen reporting as an ineligible receiver. The Patriots would snap the football as soon as the ineligible receiver was announced, using the configuration on three plays."

 

These are direct quotes from here-

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/ravens-insider/bal-baltimore-ravens-coach-john-harbaugh-tries-to-stop-new-england-patriots-deception-with-penalty-20150110-story.html

 

That doesn't appear to prove your 7-10 seconds response.  If it is true, you should be able to find the information from a credible source and we can put it to bed as John Harbaugh having a Jim Harbaugh moment.

[GoPats]

 call it was only 1 sec before snap

 not time need for the defense too react . pats know too bend the rules.  only team that does that.

 

There is (obviously) no point in trying to discuss this topic with you, mintor. I've seen your other posts.  ;)

[mintor]

 

My issue is that 2 lineman are not line up within 1 yard of the line of scrimmage (as is always the case). 63 & 76 both line up more than 1 yard off the ball. Because the rule is that the last person on the line (within 1 yard) is eligible it makes it difficult to tell who is technically on the line. If you're going to allow teams to do these types of formations then you have to better police how close everyone lines up to the actual line of scrimmage. 76 & 11 are lined up about the same distance off the line and 11 is technically in the backfield while 76 is a lineman blocking. I know these aren't the 2 players in questions but there's not a clearly defined 7 on the line to tell who the last 2 "eligible" players are. Obviously the other 4 players not on the line are eligible. 

 

 

 pats find loophole win .  

[GoPats]

I'd like to take you at your word and believe you, but you'll need to post some type of proof in order for your assertion to be considered correct.  I previously posted a news article stating Harbaugh it was much quicker than that and the Refs agreed they needed to allow time to identify the players for coverage. So evidence leans that direction for the time being.

 

Will this do? 

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/158381/inside-slant-patriots-deception-was-legal-fair-and-handled-reasonably

 

Did Vinovich give the Ravens enough time to react to a formation that put an ineligible receiver in the slot? Via the TV copy of the game, I counted roughly 10 seconds between the time of the first substitute and the snap. Was that enough time? Should Vinovich have instructed the umpire to stand over the ball while the Ravens identified, adjusted and possibly substituted? 

[mintor]

But clearly an exploitation that will need to be corrected for (with rules) before the 2015 season.

 

 

​yes. harbaugh  on the rules committee 

[GoPats]

 

 

My issue is that 2 lineman are not line up within 1 yard of the line of scrimmage (as is always the case). 63 & 76 both line up more than 1 yard off the ball. Because the rule is that the last person on the line (within 1 yard) is eligible it makes it difficult to tell who is technically on the line. If you're going to allow teams to do these types of formations then you have to better police how close everyone lines up to the actual line of scrimmage. 76 & 11 are lined up about the same distance off the line and 11 is technically in the backfield while 76 is a lineman blocking. I know these aren't the 2 players in questions but there's not a clearly defined 7 on the line to tell who the last 2 "eligible" players are. Obviously the other 4 players not on the line are eligible. 

 

 

 pats find loophole win .  

 

 

 

Excellent cut-and-paste job!

 

Next time change the font so it's less obvious. (And maybe throw some more grammatical errors in there... I'm not making fun of you... your English is a lot better than I can speak any other language!) 

[BlacknGold77]

But clearly an exploitation that will need to be corrected for (with rules) before the 2015 season.

 

 

​yes. harbaugh  on the rules committee 

 

no more so than the Wildcat, play action, option run, pump fakes, flea flicker, double pass, fake punts, onside kicks, corner blitzes, defensive linemen playing standing up