Surprise! Pats play fast and loose with the rules!

[mintor]

Excellent cut-and-paste job!

 

Next time change the font so it's less obvious. (And maybe throw some more grammatical errors in there... I'm not making fun of you... your English is a lot better than I can speak any other language!) 

 

 

your just  mad because i,m right about  pats win at all cost.  they could care about football  are respecting it. prove with spygate.  

[GoPats]

I wouldn't really care on any other play if it wasn't egregious, but on a trick play like that when everyone thinks it's a run, pretty much has to be called IMO. 

 

Are you sure, on a double-pass, that the same rule is applicable? 

 

If Brady handed it off to Edelman or got it to him on a toss (instead of the lateral) can't the lineman go down-field and it doesn't matter whether he runs with it or throws it? 

 

If not then apparently the play tricked the refs as well. 

[GoPats]

your just  mad because i,m right about  pats win at all cost.  they could care about football  are respecting it. prove with spygate.  

 

I think you have this backwards. I'm quite happy at the moment.    

 

Out of respect for our hosts and fellow posters, I'm not going to engage in the 27,393rd "spygate" debate on this board. Especially not with you, dude. 

[mintor]

Were you there? Because I'm watching the broadcast, and I can hear an announcement, but can't make it out. Collinsworth is talking over it.

 

And what Belichick said is that the ineligible player reported he was ineligible -- which we all saw on the pass play to #47 -- but he didn't say anything about the eligible player being identified. 

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/12150444/2014-15-nfl-playoffs-league-says-new-england-patriots-substitutions-vs-baltimore-ravens-legal

 

 

So if you can point me to a report of someone who heard the announcement from the refs before that play, that would be awesome. All these only say they announced the ineligible player.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/patriots-lineman-formation-2015-1

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/12/nfl-playoffs-cowboys-packers-dez-bryant-replay-catch-peyton-manning-retirement/7/

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nfl-divisional-cowboys-packers-panthers-seahawks-colts-broncos-patriots-ravens/

  called *,  karma a pain what goes around always comes around , just when got caught last time.

[ruksak]

Belichick is awesome. This is news to who, exactly? 

[mintor]

Belichick is awesome. This is news to who, exactly? 

 

 

he had brady as qb .   when brady get hurt are retires?   try win say with geno type of qb .   pats have prove they win a diff qb  were the colts have won with a diff qb then manning.

[ruksak]

he had brady as qb .   when brady get hurt are retires?   try win say with geno type of qb .   pats have prove they win a diff qb  were the colts have won with a diff qb then manning.

I don't speak Spanish

[ColtsBlueFL]

Will this do? 

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/158381/inside-slant-patriots-deception-was-legal-fair-and-handled-reasonably

 

Did Vinovich give the Ravens enough time to react to a formation that put an ineligible receiver in the slot? Via the TV copy of the game, I counted roughly 10 seconds between the time of the first substitute and the snap. Was that enough time? Should Vinovich have instructed the umpire to stand over the ball while the Ravens identified, adjusted and possibly substituted? 

 

Getting close!  Except it says "between the time of the first substitute and the snap"  not time of the announcement of ineligibilty and the snap.  And guess what, you couldn't hear on TV when that happened. At least I tried and couldn't with all the talking over the on field stuff.  I'll try again when I get back home later this week.  But I want to know when the defense captain was made aware to the snap.  That is where the rubber meets the road.  He calls the D alignment, or relays D alignment from the DC.  But if it apparent reasonable time was there each time, Harbaugh seems more and more petty.

[mintor]

You know that is a great question. I am going to have go back and look but I believe all they did was trot one lineman off the field each time and then have the eligible player declare himself ineligible. When I watched the game live, I honestly did not even notice because I don't remember seeing a lot of players shuffling on and off the field. The Ravens had plenty of time to substitute but the key was that as soon as the ref announced the ineligible player, Brady walked up the line and hiked it and that is what had Harbaugh so mad. He felt he should have had more time to recognize things but there is nothing in the rules that says the offense has to give the defense time to recognize its formation. Like I said, the Pats are hardly the first team to do exotic formations and if you allow defense time to study the formation then I believe you are going against the nature of the sport.

 

 

true when has  the pats  not going against the nature of the sport.

 

better yet when has the pats gone with  the nature of the sport ?

[amfootball]

true when has  the pats  not going against the nature of the sport.

 

better yet when has the pats gone with  the nature of the sport ?

Give it a rest man.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Are you sure, on a double-pass, that the same rule is applicable? 

 

If Brady handed it off to Edelman or got it to him on a toss (instead of the lateral) can't the lineman go down-field and it doesn't matter whether he runs with it or throws it? 

 

If not then apparently the play tricked the refs as well. 

 

 

You make the call!   (BTW, anybody ever remember that segment?  How about trying these days!  LOL)

[mintor]

 

You make the call!   (BTW, anybody ever remember that segment?  How about trying these days!  LOL)

 lol

[mintor]

“There’s no question he’s (Luck) a complete football player and one of the top quarterbacks in this league already. He has a great career in front of him but I think he’s already established himself as a very poised and talented player that can do a lot of things to beat you and he manages his team well and plays good situational football.” -New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick

 

 

 

pats wish have a luck when brady leaves.

[ruksak]

 

 

You make the call!   (BTW, anybody ever remember that segment?  How about trying these days!  LOL)

We're old...

[GoPats]

Getting close!  Except it says "between the time of the first substitute and the snap"  not time of the announcement of ineligibilty and the snap.  And guess what, you couldn't hear on TV when that happened. At least I tried and couldn't with all the talking over the on field stuff.  I'll try again when I get back home later this week.  But I want to know when the defense captain was made aware to the snap.  That is where the rubber meets the road.  He calls the D alignment, or relays D alignment from the DC.  But if it apparent reasonable time was there each time, Harbaugh seems more and more petty.

 

I noticed that and would be curious about that too. 

 

I guess either way this sort of evokes the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." If the Baltimore defense was that disheveled, all Harbaugh had to do was call a timeout and prep them for it coming up again. 

 

It's a gamble play to some extent by the Pats. If the other team picks up on it and adjusts, you're basically down a man in the scheme of things because the ineligible receiver is not a lineman or traditional blocker. I specially heard Vinovich saying, "Do not cover 34" before at least one of the plays, but yeah... it was hard to tell on the TV broadcast. 

[GoPats]

 

You make the call!   (BTW, anybody ever remember that segment?  How about trying these days!  LOL)

 

At what point (say on a screen) is the lineman allowed to pass the line of scrimmage?

 

The Pats' player is clearly beyond the LOS in that screen grab but the x-factor is that the ball was no longer in the QB's hands, right? 

 

I'm not arguing, you guys are better with this stuff than I am... just asking honestly. 

[GoPats]

pats wish have a luck when brady leaves.

 

 

So would 31 other teams pretty much. Only the Colts and Packers have, in recent memory, had such a favorable transition in between QBs. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

At what point (say on a screen) is the lineman allowed to pass the line of scrimmage?

 

The Pats' player is clearly beyond the LOS in that screen grab but the x-factor is that the ball was no longer in the QB's hands, right? 

 

I'm not arguing, you guys are better with this stuff than I am... just asking honestly. 

 

Oh yes, forgot the first part! 

 

 

LEGAL AND ILLEGAL ACTS

Article 1 Legal and Illegal Acts.

On a scrimmage play during which a legal forward pass is thrown, an ineligible offensive player, including a T-formation quarterback, is not permitted to move more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage before the pass has been thrown.

 

Brady's toss to Edelman is officially considered a lateral.  If Edelman runs, O lineman can already be up the field.  If Edelman wants to pass it, O lineman cannot be up the field via the rules above without penalty. Edelman, though he is not the QB, is the initiator of the legal forward pass on that play.  Not Brady.

[ViriLudant]

“There’s no question he’s (Luck) a complete football player and one of the top quarterbacks in this league already. He has a great career in front of him but I think he’s already established himself as a very poised and talented player that can do a lot of things to beat you and he manages his team well and plays good situational football.” -New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick

pats wish have a luck when brady leaves.

Why? So we can have a QB that turns the ball over 22 times in the regular season, and consistently in the playoffs ?

[GoPats]

 

Oh yes, forgot the first part! 

 

 

LEGAL AND ILLEGAL ACTS

Article 1 Legal and Illegal Acts.

On a scrimmage play during which a legal forward pass is thrown, an ineligible offensive player, including a T-formation quarterback, is not permitted to move more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage before the pass has been thrown.

 

Brady's toss to Edelman is officially considered a lateral.  If Edelman runs, O lineman can already be up the field.  If Edelman wants to pass it, O lineman cannot be up the field via the rules above without penalty. Edelman, though he is not the QB, is the initiator of the legal forward pass on that play.  Not Brady.

 

 

You da man. 

 

So... is #62 (Wendell) more than a yard downfield?

 

 

Sure looks like it, but Edelman has the ball cocked and is in the process of releasing it (as opposed to getting the ball set in his throwing hand or setting his feet). So this is the last fraction-of-a-second of the play. So this was about as close as it gets. Part of Wendell's body (his arm) is still within a yard, at least from this angle. I don't know if his entire body needs to be behind that line or if this is like hockey where if part of the body is still behind the red/blue line, the play is OK. 

 

The spirit of the rule of course is to prevent an ineligible player from going downfield to "block early," right? Which, I think you guys would agree, isn't happening here. 

 

Point is, had they called this, and had it impacted the outcome of the game, it would have been a case of enforcing a rule that was being broken in the technical sense only, and not in the actual action of the game. It's not like Wendell is blind-siding a defender here or wiping someone out. The play did was in no way predicated on Wendell's involvement. 

 

Maybe he was eligible?  ;)   ... 

[Brady Rules Manning]

Another crybaby thread from a crybaby fanbase.  Coach Belichick outsmarts Harbaugh and sends him home crying because he was deceived!  Isn't deception the key to football? 

 

"Wah, no fair! The Quarterback faked like it was going to be a hand off but then threw the ball.  that was deceiving! Wah, the defense faked like they were going to blitz but dropped everyone back into coverage! Wah! Wah!"

 

I'm just happy this game is being played in Gillette so the Patriots don't need to deal with any crowd noise getting piped into the stadium.

[GoPats]

Another crybaby thread from a crybaby fanbase.  Coach Belichick outsmarts Harbaugh and sends him home crying because he was deceived!  Isn't deception the key to football? 

 

"Wah, no fair! The Quarterback faked like it was going to be a hand off but then threw the ball.  that was deceiving! Wah, the defense faked like they were going to blitz but dropped everyone back into coverage! Wah! Wah!"

 

I'm just happy this game is being played in Gillette so the Patriots don't need to deal with any crowd news getting piped into the stadium.

 

I'll spare you the lecture (I know you didn't sign up for my class) but...

 

You do realize, as a Pats fan, that Belichick brought this on himself, right? I've been a fan for 40+ years and followed the Patriots through every season, good or bad, but Bill opened himself up to this sort of thing in 2007. I agree that other fans can be ridiculous about it, but I'm not * at them for it, I'm * at Belichick (still) for it. He pretty much arrogantly flaunted the rules to make a point, and in doing so gave every opposing fan in the NFL something to throw in our faces for the next eight years. It wasn't necessary and it was a foolish mistake. I'm sure he would do things differently if he had another shot at it. 

 

If the Patriots can win another SB, that should shut up most of the people who still bring it up. But dealing with these sorts of allegations comes with the territory if you're going to be a New England fan like us. 

[BullsColtsFan1]

Why? So we can have a QB that turns the ball over 22 times in the regular season, and consistently in the playoffs ?

Exactly forget all the TD passes, game winning drives and wins.  The 22 turnovers mean everything.  I wouldn't want a player similar to Luck to be on my team after Brady.  It's not like Lucks going to dominate the AFC when Brady+Manning are gone or anything.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Another crybaby thread from a crybaby fanbase.  Coach Belichick outsmarts Harbaugh and sends him home crying because he was deceived!  Isn't deception the key to football? 

 

"Wah, no fair! The Quarterback faked like it was going to be a hand off but then threw the ball.  that was deceiving! Wah, the defense faked like they were going to blitz but dropped everyone back into coverage! Wah! Wah!"

 

I'm just happy this game is being played in Gillette so the Patriots don't need to deal with any crowd news getting piped into the stadium.

 

It's like you haven't even read any of the discussion, nor care to advance it with intelligent information.  You just want to stamp it with your favorite flavor of whine of disapproval.  Shame. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

Why? So we can have a QB that turns the ball over 22 times in the regular season, and consistently in the playoffs ?

 

{in my my most sarcastic head ref voice of Pun}

 

ViriLudant is ineligible.  Don't cover ViriLudant.   ;)

[Brady Rules Manning]

I'll spare you the lecture (I know you didn't sign up for my class) but...

 

You do realize, as a Pats fan, that Belichick brought this on himself, right? I've been a fan for 40+ years and followed the Patriots through every season, good or bad, but Bill opened himself up to this sort of thing in 2007. I agree that other fans can be ridiculous about it, but I'm not * at them for it, I'm * at Belichick (still) for it. He pretty much arrogantly flaunted the rules to make a point, and in doing so gave every opposing fan in the NFL something to throw in our faces for the next eight years. It wasn't necessary and it was a foolish mistake. I'm sure he would do things differently if he had another shot at it. 

 

If the Patriots can win another SB, that should shut up most of the people who still bring it up. But dealing with these sorts of allegations comes with the territory if you're going to be a New England fan like us. 

 

 

I'm a Pats fan too but you have 15 some-odd years on me.  You do realize that 95% of NFL fans don't even know what "Spygate" is.  My guess is that they that its the erroneous report by Benedict Arnold John Tomase who reported, one day before Super Bowl 42, that the Patriots taped the Rams walkthrough in 2001.  This was proven to be NOT true.  The rule that Belichick broke was that they were taping signals from an "undesignated area" and they got whistleblown by Mangini who knew the practice inside and out.  The Patriots went 16-0 AFTER this came out, have been to a Super Bowl since then, and 4 straight AFC championships.  Did "Spygate" tell Tedy Bruschi that Dominic Rhodes was soft serve ice cream and to rip the ball right out of his arms?  Did "Spygate" kick a 47 yard field in a snow storm, and two more 40 yard field goals with no time left to win Super Bowls? 

 

Was Belichick arrogant in the whole process?  Sure.  Was he any more arrogant than Polian was, crying to the competition committee that his wittle weceivers got hit too hard and it wasn't fair or when he piped in crowd noise?  Is he any more arrogant than the Broncos front office in the late 1990s that fudged their salary cap to load their team up?  Is he more arrogant than Sean Payton and Gregg Williams who put out bounties to injure opposing players?  More arrogant than John harbaugh whose offensive strategy is to throw 40 yard bombs and get cheap PI calls?

 

It comes down to jealousy, plain and simple. Belichick plays chess while everyone else is playing checkers. I was at the game vs the Ravens and I clearly heard from my seat "#34 is INELIGIBLE" over the PA system.  I remember at the time looking at the formation and thinking "huh, that's weird". Why Harbaugh or any other defensive coach didn't think the same thing, I don't know. Harbaugh not calling a timeout to go over what they saw is completely and 100% on him.  Of course its "Deception", that's the whole point of football, isn't it? 

[Cynjin]

I'm a Pats fan too but you have 15 some-odd years on me.  You do realize that 95% of NFL fans don't even know what "Spygate" is.  My guess is that they that its the erroneous report by Benedict Arnold John Tomase who reported, one day before Super Bowl 42, that the Patriots taped the Rams walkthrough in 2001.  This was proven to be NOT true.  The rule that Belichick broke was that they were taping signals from an "undesignated area" and they got whistleblown by Mangini who knew the practice inside and out.  The Patriots went 16-0 AFTER this came out, have been to a Super Bowl since then, and 4 straight AFC championships.  Did "Spygate" tell Tedy Bruschi that Dominic Rhodes was soft serve ice cream and to rip the ball right out of his arms?  Did "Spygate" kick a 47 yard field in a snow storm, and two more 40 yard field goals with no time left to win Super Bowls? 

 

Was Belichick arrogant in the whole process?  Sure.  Was he any more arrogant than Polian was, crying to the competition committee that his wittle weceivers got hit too hard and it wasn't fair or when he piped in crowd noise?  Is he any more arrogant than the Broncos front office in the late 1990s that fudged their salary cap to load their team up?  Is he more arrogant than Sean Payton and Gregg Williams who put out bounties to injure opposing players?  More arrogant than John harbaugh whose offensive strategy is to throw 40 yard bombs and get cheap PI calls?

 

It comes down to jealousy, plain and simple. Belichick plays chess while everyone else is playing checkers. I was at the game vs the Ravens and I clearly heard from my seat "#34 is INELIGIBLE" over the PA system.  I remember at the time looking at the formation and thinking "huh, that's weird". Why Harbaugh or any other defensive coach didn't think the same thing, I don't know. Harbaugh not calling a timeout to go over what they saw is completely and 100% on him.  Of course its "Deception", that's the whole point of football, isn't it?

Maybe you should consider signing up for GoPats class.

[mintor]

Maybe you should consider signing up for GoPats class.

lol

[GoPats]

I'm a Pats fan too but you have 15 some-odd years on me.  You do realize that 95% of NFL fans don't even know what "Spygate" is.  My guess is that they that its the erroneous report by Benedict Arnold John Tomase who reported, one day before Super Bowl 42, that the Patriots taped the Rams walkthrough in 2001.  This was proven to be NOT true.  The rule that Belichick broke was that they were taping signals from an "undesignated area" and they got whistleblown by Mangini who knew the practice inside and out.  The Patriots went 16-0 AFTER this came out, have been to a Super Bowl since then, and 4 straight AFC championships.  Did "Spygate" tell Tedy Bruschi that Dominic Rhodes was soft serve ice cream and to rip the ball right out of his arms?  Did "Spygate" kick a 47 yard field in a snow storm, and two more 40 yard field goals with no time left to win Super Bowls? 

 

Was Belichick arrogant in the whole process?  Sure.  Was he any more arrogant than Polian was, crying to the competition committee that his wittle weceivers got hit too hard and it wasn't fair or when he piped in crowd noise?  Is he any more arrogant than the Broncos front office in the late 1990s that fudged their salary cap to load their team up?  Is he more arrogant than Sean Payton and Gregg Williams who put out bounties to injure opposing players?  More arrogant than John harbaugh whose offensive strategy is to throw 40 yard bombs and get cheap PI calls?

 

It comes down to jealousy, plain and simple. Belichick plays chess while everyone else is playing checkers. I was at the game vs the Ravens and I clearly heard from my seat "#34 is INELIGIBLE" over the PA system.  I remember at the time looking at the formation and thinking "huh, that's weird". Why Harbaugh or any other defensive coach didn't think the same thing, I don't know. Harbaugh not calling a timeout to go over what they saw is completely and 100% on him.  Of course its "Deception", that's the whole point of football, isn't it? 

 

I agree that, when it comes to the specifics of Spygate, most of the people who bring it up don't have a very solid grasp of what actually happened, and why. Ironically enough, a lot of opposing fans try to discredit Brady by saying he rode his defense to those three titles, but at the same time bring up Spygate without realizing that it was all about stealing defensive calls from the other team (meaning it was theoretically an advantage for the Patriots' offense, not their defense). 

 

There is so much evidence pointing toward it having a minimal impact... Pats won/lost record pre-2007 and post-2007, the emergence of the offense (again from 2007 on) as the stronger unit on the team... etc. Maybe another Super Bowl will silence the remaining critics. Maybe not. Either way I'd like to find out. 

 

I'm sure jealousy, subconscious or otherwise, plays into it too. But my only point was that when it comes to anything controversial, most people outside of NE are not going to give BB the benefit of the doubt. And that's kind of his own fault.

 

If people are willing to discuss these things productively and with civility and mutual respect, I'm all over that. But if people just blurt out, "Cheaters, herp-derp-derrr-derr-herp!" then I generally ignore them.  ;)

[GoPats]

Maybe you should consider signing up for GoPats class.

 

I did teach for a couple of semesters at a VT state college... I think I still have the corduroy jacket (complete with leather arm patches) somewhere... 

 

;)

[mintor]

tell belichick can win a sb without brady then he prove he a great coach.  any good too above  hc can win with  a hof qb , fact.

[radiogirl]

Why? So we can have a QB that turns the ball over 22 times in the regular season, and consistently in the playoffs ?

You do realize this is a COLTS forum, right?  

[Superman]

Link?

 

I didn't think this was the case. Otherwise it would have been flagged. Every story I've read says they used the play three times, and declared it three times. 

 

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots

 

As required by rule Rule 5, Section 3, Article 1, Vereen reported himself ineligible to Vinovich and lined up in the slot to the right of the formation. The Patriots' line included only four offensive linemen, but it was a legal formation because it included five ineligible receivers. (The rule doesn't require Vereen to be tight to the line.) 

Vinovich announced to the Ravens' defense that Vereen was ineligible, as required by the same rule. According to ESPN Patriots reporter Mike Reiss, within the stadium Vinovich could even be heard to tell the Ravens defense not to cover him. At the snap, Vereen ran into the backfield as if he was going to catch a lateral pass; in truth, his "route" was a decoy. 

 

From your own link, sir. Check the bolded. Notice no one is saying anything about #47. That's what I'm saying should be different. Everything I've read states that the refs announced that Vereen was ineligible; nothing states that they announced that #47 was eligible.

 

Generally, a team will use a player wearing an ineligible number as an eligible receiver. So normally, you don't have a player declaring himself to be ineligible, you normally have a player declaring himself to be eligible. In this case, it was the opposite of what normally happens. Vereen declared himself ineligible, leaving the question about who is now eligible. 

 

If you put six OL on the field, the question is about which one of them is eligible. If you put 7 eligible players on the field (including a QB), the question is the exact opposite. The defense has to figure out which 6 of those 7 players is eligible. The QB is pretty obvious, but there's still some deduction to be done. The 11 defenders have to figure that out. I know about 7 seconds passed between the ref's announcement about Vereen and the snap of the ball, but that's not a long time for 11 defenders to decipher who is and who isn't eligible on the play. It's obvious in hindsight, but it's a competitive advantage for the offense, and seems unfair, to disguise the five eligible receivers before the snap.

 

So, again, not accusing the Pats of cheating or anything. I'm only saying I think the refs should declare who is eligible, just like they do with a 6OL formation.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I noticed that and would be curious about that too. 

 

I guess either way this sort of evokes the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." If the Baltimore defense was that disheveled, all Harbaugh had to do was call a timeout and prep them for it coming up again. 

 

It's a gamble play to some extent by the Pats. If the other team picks up on it and adjusts, you're basically down a man in the scheme of things because the ineligible receiver is not a lineman or traditional blocker. I specially heard Vinovich saying, "Do not cover 34" before at least one of the plays, but yeah... it was hard to tell on the TV broadcast. 

 

Indeed it could be a gamble.  If a very cerebral (booksmart, not necessarily an X and O smart) HC saw this and knew his rules, possibly he could counter genius with his own variety. When subs were made by the O, trot out your subs. But as you see 6 eligible numbers, and know only 5 can be, wave back in one of your dime DB's and trot out your pass rush DE/OLB instead. He lines up uncovered on the line, or the (soon to be) ineligible receiver gets the job of blocking his pass rush.  LOL  It's in the rules the Officials cannot allow the snap until the D subs are complete. If the O snaps it anyway, 12 men on the field penalty cannot be called!  it's in the rules! And the O gets warned for illegal quick snap!

 

 

Now if the officials let the ball snap, and they don't penalize the O as D subs are being completed, then As the head coach of the defensive team, I would protest the game right then (and file formal paperwork after the game) saying the Refs allowed the offense to violate section b of Article 10 without penalty. It could have got real ugly out there.  There's no definition of reasonable time.  What is it?  3 seconds?  5?  7? 10?  what?  I can see a limit, otherwise I'd dilly dally until the O has no time on their 24 second clock to get a play off, and thus a delay call..  There are loopholes all over this.  No wonder the NFL rulebook is getting so thick and complicated.  And it is about to get worse.

[GoPats]

From your own link, sir. Check the bolded. Notice no one is saying anything about #47. That's what I'm saying should be different. Everything I've read states that the refs announced that Vereen was ineligible; nothing states that they announced that #47 was eligible.

 

Generally, a team will use a player wearing an ineligible number as an eligible receiver. So normally, you don't have a player declaring himself to be ineligible, you normally have a player declaring himself to be eligible. In this case, it was the opposite of what normally happens. Vereen declared himself ineligible, leaving the question about who is now eligible. 

 

If you put six OL on the field, the question is about which one of them is eligible. If you put 7 eligible players on the field (including a QB), the question is the exact opposite. The defense has to figure out which 6 of those 7 players is eligible. The QB is pretty obvious, but there's still some deduction to be done. The 11 defenders have to figure that out. I know about 7 seconds passed between the ref's announcement about Vereen and the snap of the ball, but that's not a long time for 11 defenders to decipher who is and who isn't eligible on the play. It's obvious in hindsight, but it's a competitive advantage for the offense, and seems unfair, to disguise the five eligible receivers before the snap.

 

So, again, not accusing the Pats of cheating or anything. I'm only saying I think the refs should declare who is eligible, just like they do with a 6OL formation.

 

Got it, I think I misread the original post of yours I quoted.

 

If Hoo-Man (who wears #47) is eligible based on his position and number, does he have to declare? Is he required to? I thought a player only has to declare if he's wearing a number that is not designated for RBs/WRs/TEs/FBs (something in the 50s, 60s, 70s)... 

 

The Patriots sent out Brady, four linemen, and six potential receivers. If one of the six declares himself as ineligible, it doesn't seem to me that any further declarations would be required. Teams always try to get defenses guessing if TEs are blocking or running out on routes. 

 

 

You know, something no one has mentioned... at the end of his press conference when talking about this, Brady sort of smirked and said, "We'll have something else in store for next week," or along those lines. I wonder what else BB has up his cut-off sleeve here. Pagano may need to prep the Colts for a center, Brady, and nine possible receivers, lol... 

[GoPats]

Now if the officials let the ball snap, and they don't penalize the O as D subs are being completed, then As the head coach of the defensive team, I would protest the game right then (and file formal paperwork after the game) saying the Refs allowed the offense to violate section b of Article 10 without penalty. It could have got real ugly out there.  There's no definition of reasonable time.  What is it?  3 seconds?  5?  7? 10?  what?  I can see a limit, otherwise I'd dilly dally until the O has no time on their 24 second clock to get a play off, and thus a delay call..  There are loopholes all over this.  No wonder the NFL rulebook is getting so thick and complicated.  And it is about to get worse.

 

That (the bold part) is what will come of this or what they'll "fix." They'll have to define what "reasonable" means. This is sort of like the whole super-hurry-up offenses we've seen, where the ref will stand over the ball and hold off the snap to make sure that the D at least gets a fair shot at lining up. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

That (the bold part) is what will come of this or what they'll "fix." They'll have to define what "reasonable" means. This is sort of like the whole super-hurry-up offenses we've seen, where the ref will stand over the ball and hold off the snap to make sure that the D at least gets a fair shot at lining up. 

I agree, and what the competition committee will debate is who and when player eligibility/ineligibility plays into this.

[mintor]

I agree, and what the competition committee will debate is who and when player eligibility/ineligibility plays into this.

 

 

true ,   harbaugh  is on the competition committee

[Superman]

Got it, I think I misread the original post of yours I quoted.

 

If Hoo-Man (who wears #47) is eligible based on his position and number, does he have to declare? Is he required to? I thought a player only has to declare if he's wearing a number that is not designated for RBs/WRs/TEs/FBs (something in the 50s, 60s, 70s)... 

 

The Patriots sent out Brady, four linemen, and six potential receivers. If one of the six declares himself as ineligible, it doesn't seem to me that any further declarations would be required. Teams always try to get defenses guessing if TEs are blocking or running out on routes. 

 

 

You know, something no one has mentioned... at the end of his press conference when talking about this, Brady sort of smirked and said, "We'll have something else in store for next week," or along those lines. I wonder what else BB has up his cut-off sleeve here. Pagano may need to prep the Colts for a center, Brady, and nine possible receivers, lol... 

 

Pagano said he called Blandino Sunday morning to get a clarification about the rule and what the Pats did. So they're being proactive about it. But yeah, I'm sure they have something up their sleeves. I'll meet you in the game discussion thread about that.

 

To answer your question above, yeah, I don't think the rule states that a player wearing an eligible number has to declare. Here's the difference, though: #47 was lined up in an ineligible position, two spots over from center, where the LT would normally line up. They hid him. He was uncovered, as another poster mentioned, so you can go back and see that he was obviously going to be eligible, but it wasn't clear at the time, and it's hard to get that figured out in real time. 

 

I mentioned earlier also, the Colts did something similar against the Pats. They made their LT eligible, and kept him in the LT spot, two spots over from center. He had to declare because of his number. #47 didn't have to declare. It was up to the defense to figure it out, through the process of elimination, in the 7 seconds between the ref's announcement and the snap of the ball. 

[ColtStronger]

so true if he was a D player he would be gone

Brady plays the D, if that counts for anything