Denver CB Harris says Wilson is better than Luck [Merge]

[House]

Edit my posts however you like.

This thread is confusing.

[TAPLOOK]

I understand just fine how a QB contributes to a football team, and if we are going by that standard, Wilson is 0-0. The Seahawks defense carries that team, and the defense won the superbowl. There is a reason why Wilson was not the MVP.

 

In regards to Manning, well yea, Manning is Manning, but Russel Wilson is not Manning, he's not even that close to being Luck. Luck took this flawed team and put it on his back and carried it to the playoffs two times in two years. The Seahawks defense took the team, put it on it's back and carried it to a superbowl win. Russel Wilson road the coat tails.

 

The fact is, the Seahawks are 0-3 (including playoffs since 2012) when their opponent scores 30 points or more. It's crystal clear that the Defense carries that team, and in the event that they have a bad game, they lose.

 

 

That was a great game winning drive by the Seattle D on Sunday.

[SilentHill]

That was a great game winning drive by the Seattle D on Sunday.

 

Oh boy! One whole game winning drive! Well this changes EVERYTHING!

[amfootball]

I disagree with dw49 in that I would speak of smoke and mirrors and fairy dust. The stats speak to that. We had a negative turnover differential, we gave up more points than we scored, the offense was one-dimensional, etc. When you look at the metrics, teams that perform overall the way we did don't win 11 games and go to the playoffs. That's why the 2013 projections weren't favorable, because that formula, if you can even call it that, was unsustainable.

Kind of like Denver/Tebow in 2011.

[hoopster325]

Oh boy! One whole game winning drive! Well this changes EVERYTHING!

 

Actually has 11 game winning drives at this point

[NewEra]

I actually like Wilson a lot. Intelligent player, good guy in and off the field. You could say he's better but it woils be very close. Same for Luck. Big differnce for me would be stature. I would take Luck over Wilson cause he has the size and strength to break more tackles and to be able to take hits better. Luck had taken a beating since we drafted him. I would be afraid of Wilson being in a wheelchair behind our line last two years.

[thedude]

or what?

What we have ^^^^^ here is an internet tough guy.

 

If you can't make your point without changing the words others post, you are indeed a chump. 

[Superman]

Kind of like Denver/Tebow in 2011.

 

Kind of.

[dgambill]

Really? 9 pages on a thread about another teams qb being better than ours? We go 15 yrs of arguing the PM vs Tom Brady thing and we still haven't gotten over this arguement? Why allow ourselves to get dragged into it? We have a GREAT qb....love him...support him...appreciate him. I don't know why its necessary to try to always have the best player...maybe he is and maybe he isn't. For whatever reason Harris thought he was harder to play against...no biggie...I'm sure there are tons other corners that think differently...probably even some on his own team. I think both qbs are very dynamic...under-rated in many aspects and yet unproven in some other areas too. I like to try to appreciate each's play. Wilson's drive in OT was impressive....just awesome...and even though I was pulling for Peyton I could still appreciate Wilson's game that day. Perhaps I'm just hoping we don't have to have another thousand threads on who is better over the next decade...numbers or SBs beside the point and just appreciate the play on the field....and if someone differs in opinion....thank them for it, perhaps give your own and move on. I don't know why every opinion has to be argued. In the end I've very seldom seen someone change their opinion facts or proof otherwise. I know there is going to be debate but I think everyones blood pressure would be better served if we just respected differing opinions and didn't try to cram our own down someone elses throat.

[LordHelpOurColts]

Knock this apple off my head

[Dustin]

Luck inherited this horrid team in 2012 and yet he propelled them by himself to 11 wins. You know that does not happen in the NFL. 

 

Obviously it does. 

[NewColtsFan]

Holy Toledo.....

 

This thread was complete nonsense when it began 3 days ago.

 

The original poster was actually looking for someone to blame for this being an issue.

 

Of course, the only person who needed to be blamed was the OP for actually making it an issue.    Otherwise,  who cares?

 

And yet.....   apparently,  lots of people here do.    There are 328 posts and 9 pages worth of responses.....

 

And to what?     What was worth responding to?     One NFL player said Russell Wilson was better than Andrew Luck.

 

Who cares?!?

 

Sometimes things are go simply out-of-control crazy...........     

[Clem-Dog]

Here are some interesting stats I grabbed from another site.

Credit to: WeggieRayne87

"When attempting 30+ passes:

Wilson: 5-4

Luck: 18-13

Number of times each QB has attempted 40+ passes:

Wilson: 0

Luck: 15

Number of times each QB has had 15 completions or less in a single game:

Wilson: 19

Luck: 2

Luck’s career low in completions is 13 completions. 4 times (once in a playoff game) Wilson has completed 9 throws or less. They are both great QBs, however the Seahawks stat argument is flawed when one QB is asked to throw way more often than the other. We have seen what Luck can do with a poor supporting cast (back to back 11 win seasons), but have not seen what Wilson can do with one."

[Yehoodi]

I understand just fine how a QB contributes to a football team, and if we are going by that standard, Wilson is 0-0. The Seahawks defense carries that team, and the defense won the superbowl. There is a reason why Wilson was not the MVP.

 

In regards to Manning, well yea, Manning is Manning, but Russel Wilson is not Manning, he's not even that close to being Luck. Luck took this flawed team and put it on his back and carried it to the playoffs two times in two years. The Seahawks defense took the team, put it on it's back and carried it to a superbowl win. Russel Wilson road the coat tails.

 

The fact is, the Seahawks are 0-3 (including playoffs since 2012) when their opponent scores 30 points or more. It's crystal clear that the Defense carries that team, and in the event that they have a bad game, they lose.

 

Well I am glad that you seem to understand what the QB brings to the equation, but if you do then you should have a better feeling between Luck and Wilson than you state . . . that the troubling part . . . I don't have a horse in this race and have stated that I like Luck . . . but I will not let my tunnel vision ignore what Wilson has done to date, good God the man beat Brady and the Pats, and did so on the final drive with a long pass that went over double coverage, I mean please . . . what the heck do you want . . . its not like they beat the pats 13-6, the man made the plays when he needed too and won 24-23 . . .

 

you say you understand what the QB, well then I would hope you would agree that he is key to what the offense does, correct?

 

And when we compare the two offenses of the two respective teams we will find the following:

 

First off in those over 30 points games you referenced the colts are 3-7 with the colts averaging 24 points and change and Seattle a tad better at 25 points and change . . . so its not like Seattle is off from the colts . .  .

 

Also when we look at the overall production of the two teams, we will find that the Seattle offense has been more efficient offense in both years over the colts offense with Seattle averaging 2.19 ('12) and 2.12 ('13) points per possession and the colts are at 1.76 ('12) and 1.97 ('13) per possession. . . so as for their contribution to the team effect the Seattle offense and that QB has produce more for the team effort offensively than the Colts offense and that QB named Luck. . . gee ain't that a kicker a "he needs a defense-game manager" QB producing more offense per possession that a 1st overall draft pick . . . who woulda thunk it . . . and the last time I check my television very few defensive players find their way to the offensive side of the ball . .  . 

 

and lets not forget the competition, Seattle plays in the NFC West and Colts in the AFC North and I think more rational thinkers would conclude that the former has been a stronger division over the last few years . . .

 

So you can pump up Luck's tires all you want and try to deflate Wilson efforts and deflect accomplishment to other phases of the game, but you can not deny the reality that Wilson plays in a tougher division, in games in which the opponent score more than 30 Wilson has product just as much as Luck points wise (well a tad more) and most critically in their overall careers Wilson has lead an offense that has produced more points per opportunity given to him than Luck . . .  that just how is baby . . .

[Yehoodi]

I lost interest in this at the end of the first paragraph. My Internet attention span is too short for this discussion

 

well then in the future please do not respond to my posts . . . if you don't want to take the time to read and respond don't waste my time then . . . I mistakenly believed you actually wanted to get into an intelligent discussion on the matter as opposed to spitting out one liners . . . I have now found you are the one of the latter . . . thanks for trying though . . .

[Yehoodi]

The Colts would have been over .500 in 2011 and probably would have made the playoffs if Manning had been healthy. That is how much difference he made.

 

I hear yah . . . and they would of been higher than 2-14 had they had a good back up, but things happen . . . I do think that the great QB will help you win 3-4 games per year . . . and back ones in the other direction, hence the big gap . . . not sure how far they may of got to the playoffs given the talent . . .

 

Well for Peyton's sake he is on a solid team and has help elevate to back to back 1 seeds  . . .maybe this year he and the Broncos can go for 3 one seeds in a row . . .I wonder if that is a record?

[Yehoodi]

Really? 9 pages on a thread about another teams qb being better than ours? We go 15 yrs of arguing the PM vs Tom Brady thing and we still haven't gotten over this arguement? Why allow ourselves to get dragged into it? We have a GREAT qb....love him...support him...appreciate him. I don't know why its necessary to try to always have the best player...maybe he is and maybe he isn't. For whatever reason Harris thought he was harder to play against...no biggie...I'm sure there are tons other corners that think differently...probably even some on his own team. I think both qbs are very dynamic...under-rated in many aspects and yet unproven in some other areas too. I like to try to appreciate each's play. Wilson's drive in OT was impressive....just awesome...and even though I was pulling for Peyton I could still appreciate Wilson's game that day. Perhaps I'm just hoping we don't have to have another thousand threads on who is better over the next decade...numbers or SBs beside the point and just appreciate the play on the field....and if someone differs in opinion....thank them for it, perhaps give your own and move on. I don't know why every opinion has to be argued. In the end I've very seldom seen someone change their opinion facts or proof otherwise. I know there is going to be debate but I think everyones blood pressure would be better served if we just respected differing opinions and didn't try to cram our own down someone elses throat.

 

I just think its just one of those things some fans love to do . . . civic pride if you will . . . I guess it is just human nature for some to want to discuss things and to say my guy is the better guy and so on, or at least have the comparison discussion over coffee or checkers or something . . . for the most part it can be a health thing but it can get testy . . . I just think it is human nature and sometimes you can not take the "atic" out of fanatic . . .

[thedude]

well then in the future please do not respond to my posts . . . if you don't want to take the time to read and respond don't waste my time then . . . I mistakenly believed you actually wanted to get into an intelligent discussion on the matter as opposed to spitting out one liners . . . I have now found you are the one of the latter . . . thanks for trying though . . .

It was just too long for me.  My attention span is too short for that.  No need to be upset. 

[amfootball]

Kind of.

Probably the two most unlikely seasons in the last 15 years - the 2011 Broncos and the 2012 Colts. And neither team was very good on  paper anyways.

[sweetsurrender]

Well I am glad that you seem to understand what the QB brings to the equation, but if you do then you should have a better feeling between Luck and Wilson than you state . . . that the troubling part . . . I don't have a horse in this race and have stated that I like Luck . . . but I will not let my tunnel vision ignore what Wilson has done to date, good God the man beat Brady and the Pats, and did so on the final drive with a long pass that went over double coverage, I mean please . . . what the heck do you want . . . its not like they beat the pats 13-6, the man made the plays when he needed too and won 24-23 . . .

 

you say you understand what the QB, well then I would hope you would agree that he is key to what the offense does, correct?

 

And when we compare the two offenses of the two respective teams we will find the following:

 

First off in those over 30 points games you referenced the colts are 3-7 with the colts averaging 24 points and change and Seattle a tad better at 25 points and change . . . so its not like Seattle is off from the colts . .  .

 

Also when we look at the overall production of the two teams, we will find that the Seattle offense has been more efficient offense in both years over the colts offense with Seattle averaging 2.19 ('12) and 2.12 ('13) points per possession and the colts are at 1.76 ('12) and 1.97 ('13) per possession. . . so as for their contribution to the team effect the Seattle offense and that QB has produce more for the team effort offensively than the Colts offense and that QB named Luck. . . gee ain't that a kicker a "he needs a defense-game manager" QB producing more offense per possession that a 1st overall draft pick . . . who woulda thunk it . . . and the last time I check my television very few defensive players find their way to the offensive side of the ball . .  . 

 

and lets not forget the competition, Seattle plays in the NFC West and Colts in the AFC North and I think more rational thinkers would conclude that the former has been a stronger division over the last few years . . .

 

So you can pump up Luck's tires all you want and try to deflate Wilson efforts and deflect accomplishment to other phases of the game, but you can not deny the reality that Wilson plays in a tougher division, in games in which the opponent score more than 30 Wilson has product just as much as Luck points wise (well a tad more) and most critically in their overall careers Wilson has lead an offense that has produced more points per opportunity given to him than Luck . . .  that just how is baby . . .

I wanted to thank you for taking the time to research this. I appreciate this type of behind the numbers breakdown. Please don't let one poster prevent you from continuing to post lengthy responses. I will take the time to read something as in-depth as this.

[sweetsurrender]

It was just too long for me.  My attention span is too short for that.  No need to be upset. 

It is well worth the read. Just my two cents ... 

[sweetsurrender]

I disagree with dw49 in that I would speak of smoke and mirrors and fairy dust. The stats speak to that. We had a negative turnover differential, we gave up more points than we scored, the offense was one-dimensional, etc. When you look at the metrics, teams that perform overall the way we did don't win 11 games and go to the playoffs. That's why the 2013 projections weren't favorable, because that formula, if you can even call it that, was unsustainable.

I disagree. The 2013 also won 11 games. I think the Colts were a better team than the projections for 2012 and Grig put the right amount of pieces in place to enable that team to be successful even if the measurables indicate that the team should have lost more games. The 2012 was a team that was very good situationally so it could get behind or have Luck turn the ball over but made enough plays to nullify the negative effects. They were also probably a bit lucky too but every team is to a certain point.

[SilentHill]

Well I am glad that you seem to understand what the QB brings to the equation, but if you do then you should have a better feeling between Luck and Wilson than you state . . . that the troubling part . . . I don't have a horse in this race and have stated that I like Luck . . . but I will not let my tunnel vision ignore what Wilson has done to date, good God the man beat Brady and the Pats, and did so on the final drive with a long pass that went over double coverage, I mean please . . . what the heck do you want . . . its not like they beat the pats 13-6, the man made the plays when he needed too and won 24-23 . . .

 

you say you understand what the QB, well then I would hope you would agree that he is key to what the offense does, correct?

 

And when we compare the two offenses of the two respective teams we will find the following:

 

First off in those over 30 points games you referenced the colts are 3-7 with the colts averaging 24 points and change and Seattle a tad better at 25 points and change . . . so its not like Seattle is off from the colts . .  .

 

Also when we look at the overall production of the two teams, we will find that the Seattle offense has been more efficient offense in both years over the colts offense with Seattle averaging 2.19 ('12) and 2.12 ('13) points per possession and the colts are at 1.76 ('12) and 1.97 ('13) per possession. . . so as for their contribution to the team effect the Seattle offense and that QB has produce more for the team effort offensively than the Colts offense and that QB named Luck. . . gee ain't that a kicker a "he needs a defense-game manager" QB producing more offense per possession that a 1st overall draft pick . . . who woulda thunk it . . . and the last time I check my television very few defensive players find their way to the offensive side of the ball . .  . 

 

and lets not forget the competition, Seattle plays in the NFC West and Colts in the AFC North and I think more rational thinkers would conclude that the former has been a stronger division over the last few years . . .

 

So you can pump up Luck's tires all you want and try to deflate Wilson efforts and deflect accomplishment to other phases of the game, but you can not deny the reality that Wilson plays in a tougher division, in games in which the opponent score more than 30 Wilson has product just as much as Luck points wise (well a tad more) and most critically in their overall careers Wilson has lead an offense that has produced more points per opportunity given to him than Luck . . .  that just how is baby . . .

 

 

You are completely forgetting to factor in the Seattle running game, and O-line, which let's be honest is light years ahead of the Colts and has been exponentially more so in both preceding years. Not to mention that Pete Carrol is 10x the coach that Pagano is.

[TAPLOOK]

Oh boy! One whole game winning drive! Well this changes EVERYTHING!

 

 

I would bet he's had more of them that Luck?

[TAPLOOK]

It was just too long for me.  My attention span is too short for that.  No need to be upset. 

 

 

Cool. It's not often you see a poster insult themselves.

[Yehoodi]

It was just too long for me.  My attention span is too short for that.  No need to be upset. 

 

fair enough then dude   . . . I guess I was a little disappointed that, imo, you did not pick my point from my earlier posts, to you and others, and then felt the need to spend the time to explain myself in more detail especially after you ask me in your post what my point was . . . so it was kind of like I make a point in the thread, someone did not pick it up (imo), asked me what my point was, I then took the time to expand my explanation and he does note read the post . . . so there was a knee jerk reaction from my last post, sorry if it got a little testy . . .

 

But we are all cool now . . .

[SilentHill]

I would bet he's had more of them that Luck?

 

You'd lose that bet.

[Yehoodi]

You are completely forgetting to factor in the Seattle running game, and O-line, which let's be honest is light years ahead of the Colts and has been exponentially more so in both preceding years. Not to mention that Pete Carrol is 10x the coach that Pagano is.

 

I hear yah, surely other parts of the offense and coaching staff can help out . . . I can not speak for the Olines but do agree with you that Lynch has developed into a solid runner and that will collectively help the overall offense which is incorporated into the points per possession, points taken . . . I think I personally will hold off on saying how much better Pete Carrol, but to date I would have to say that he has a strong resume than Pagano . . .

 

Yah I only chime into the thread as I have began to take more notice of Wilson . . . when Seattle beat the Pats they were still, imo, a 0.500 team that had a 0.500 team pedigree, it was his rookie year . . . and not that I was a cocky fan of a "blue" chip team, but I was kind of like, talk to me when you do something . . . Wilson did make a great throw at the end, and our defense at the time was really weak against the long ball, but he did make a good throw over double coverage . . . and I remember him rolling out after the throw and saw him kind of have a "I been here before" look on his face which could have been taken as a tad cocky or just a calm individual, I just passed it off as a blind squirrel will eventually find a nut . . . and its Seattle, and it was cute to see the NFC West have a few good teams, and how can anyone take a team seriously with lime green in their uniform, and so on . . .

 

But now that we are a few years removed, and watching him the SB, and even though it ended up a blow out and the defense played great, they was some keys points in the first half where the Denver D held and did not yield much damage after the turnovers and some games can turnaround after a slow start, but Wilson made some key third down conversations when the run game was stuff . . .

 

And now we have that OT drive in the last game and his team record against the big 4 QB teams, so he is not just that guy in a uniform with lime green that got "lucky" in his last second throw to beat the blue chip pats . . . there is a resume now . . . I have always said that as much as we love Brady and Manning there may be a player that could surpass them . . . I mention this back when Rodgers was the flavor of the year in 2011, that he might be the next great one, although now he and his team are not as successful as in 2011 . . . and I say the same thing about Wilson, at first, one does think he will be any good or even start, but over time one might see him become one of the best of his generation . . .

 

okay sorry for long post but want to get a few things out, thanks for reading

[Yehoodi]

I wanted to thank you for taking the time to research this. I appreciate this type of behind the numbers breakdown. Please don't let one poster prevent you from continuing to post lengthy responses. I will take the time to read something as in-depth as this.

 

thanks for the feedback sweetsurrender, I do tend to draft long post and take the time to investigate things that I think I need to investigate . . . and I can be too long winded for some topics and it why I try to pick what topics I draft post, as it takes time so I am limited what I can do, and as times some topics/responses may not require a long response . . . I just had a passion for this thread and I personally have change my views on Wilson and wanted to share my thoughts . . .   

[TAPLOOK]

You'd lose that bet.

 

You do know what a question mark is right? Give us the numbers.

[SilentHill]

You do know what a question mark is right? Give us the numbers.

 

Tied, 11 a piece.

[TAPLOOK]

Wow. Amazing.

 

Each has 8 fourth quarter comebacks and 11 game winning drives for Luck 12 for Wilson against much better competition. I win.

[TAPLOOK]

 

Tied, 11 a piece.

Wrong. Count last Sundays for Wilson.

[SilentHill]

 

 

Wrong. Count last Sundays for Wilson.

 

 

sigh... I shouldn't have to go get links for you.

 

Wilson - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=WilsRu00

 

Luck - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=LuckAn00

[TAPLOOK]

sigh... I shouldn't have to go get links for you.

 

Wilson - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=WilsRu00

 

Luck - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=LuckAn00

 

 

I stand corrected.  look at the teams they both did it against. Wilson - NE, SF, Denver, Chicago, Carolina...Luck can't touch that.

 

Wilson > Luck

[SilentHill]

I stand corrected.  look at the teams they both did it against. Wilson - NE, SF, Denver, Chicago, Carolina...Luck can't touch that.

 

Wilson > Luck

 

You spin more than politician. Have you ever considered it a career?

[TAPLOOK]

You spin more than politician. Have you ever considered it a career?

 

 

If you call facts spin then maybe I should run for office. What is it that you are disputing? Personally I think you're prototypical for the political arena.

[SilentHill]

If you call facts spin then maybe I should run for office. What is it that you are disputing? Personally I think you're prototypical for the political arena.

 

You tell me that Wilson has more GW drives, then when proven wrong, you spin another aspect of it to make Wilson seem better, regardless, but I don't need to tell you this, your the one who did it. ;)

[TAPLOOK]

You tell me that Wilson has more GW drives, then when proven wrong, you spin another aspect of it to make Wilson seem better, regardless, but I don't need to tell you this, your the one who did it. ;)

 

 

I didn't tell you he had more game winning drives. You may want to go back and re-read the post. Sorry for pointing out that he did it against better competition.

[Cynjin]

I would bet he's had more of them that Luck?

  

Wow. Amazing.

 

Each has 8 fourth quarter comebacks and 11 game winning drives for Luck 12 for Wilson against much better competition. I win.

  

I didn't tell you he had more game winning drives. You may want to go back and re-read the post. Sorry for pointing out that he did it against better competition.

Actually you did say Wilson had more. First, "I would bet he's had more than Luck?" Is not a question, regardless of your use of a question mark. Then you stated that Wilson had 12 to Luck's 11.