Denver CB Harris says Wilson is better than Luck [Merge]

[crazycolt1]

The Colts though really were not a 2-14 team. They were in the playoffs the year prior and had no contingency plan when Manning was out with the neck at QB. So really Luck did not inherit a terrible team by any means and they have surrounded Luck with better talent at the skills position than Wilson. That being said, Wilson has the much better defense. I do think Luck has had waay more expectations than Wilson as the number one pick but that is part of the deal when you come out as highly touted as he was. Not sure if it really matters honestly.

I think you need to check your numbers on Luck and the team that was the Colts when he was drafted. The Colts had one starting receiver in Wayne. They had no TEs. They also had no starting running back. The Colts defense was rated # 24th in the league. The offense only returned 2 starters from the 2-14 year and that was Costonzo and Linkenbach. As it stands right now there is only 6 players on the Colts that were here on the 2-14 roster and two of them are kickers and one is on IR. You really think Luck was drafted onto a good team? Not hardly.

[crazycolt1]

I'm not in the business of supposing. Wilson was there, Luck was not. The facts aren't asking you for verification on that matter. 

What facts? That Luck was on a bigger stage as you called it? It self explanatory.

[amfootball]

I think you need to check your numbers on Luck and the team that was the Colts when he was drafted. The Colts had one starting receiver in Wayne. They had no TEs. They also had no starting running back. The Colts defense was rated # 24th in the league. The offense only returned 2 starters from the 2-14 year and that was Costonzo and Linkenbach. As it stands right now there is only 6 players on the Colts that were here on the 2-14 roster and two of them are kickers and one is on IR. You really think Luck was drafted onto a good team? Not hardly.

Grig did draft well that first year and surrounded Luck with good talent. You don't go 11-5 with the QB turning it over 23 times unless you have talent surrounding him on both sides of the ball.

[crazycolt1]

Grig did draft well that first year and surrounded Luck with good talent. You don't go 11-5 with the QB turning it over 23 times unless you have talent surrounding him on both sides of the ball.

Yes he had a good draft. Because there were no decent players on the roster and the rookies were forced into starting positions because of the lack of talent.  This don't even need to be a debate. The Colts sucked when Luck was drafted.

[rsrobinson]

Are you serious? How many of those 2011 Colts still in the league?

You mean that Andrew Luck wasn't the only change the Colts made after going 2-14? Huh. By the sounds of things I thought he was singlehandedly responsible for lifting the Colts to consecutive 11-5 seasons,

[amfootball]

Yes he had a good draft. Because there were no decent players on the team you called good when Luck was drafted. This don't even need to be a debate. The Colts sucked when Luck was drafted.

What is your point then? You said Luck inherited a 2-14 team? He did not. The team was completely rebuilt with new players, coaches and new GM. It is not like the team had this long history of losing like the Seahawks for most of their existence save for 2005 when they made the SB. The Colts were in the playoffs the year prior, 2010.

[thedude]

Any GM that doesn't take that offer (receiving Luck), would be the butt of every joke for the next decade, not only would they be immediately be fired, and banished from the NFL due to no interest, I'd have serious doubts about them being able to secure a job at Burger King after making a flub like that.

 

 

Homers are always amusing.

[rsrobinson]

Any GM that doesn't take that offer (receiving Luck), would be the butt of every joke for the next decade, not only would they be immediately be fired, and banished from the NFL due to no interest, I'd have serious doubts about them being able to secure a job at Burger King after making a flub like that.

Hard to imagine some team hasn't snapped you up for their front office.

Your trade proposal is one of the dumbest I've ever seen and that's saying something considering dumb trade proposals by wannabe GMs is a staple of NFL forums.

[Gramz]

Are you saying that Tom Brady is better than Manning? Or that Trent Dilfer is better than Luck?  Cmon now gramz. we all know rings are a team accomplishment.

I didn't say  I thought that.  I said he will be "considered"  and I should have added  "by some"  to that comment.

 

You know I rarely agree with general consensus.  ;)

[HOFClipboardHolder]

You mean that Andrew Luck wasn't the only change the Colts made after going 2-14? Huh. By the sounds of things I thought he was singlehandedly responsible for lifting the Colts to consecutive 11-5 seasons,

Nice straw man you built there

[Yehoodi]

Absolutely, and just ask Elway what those two rings meant to his legacy at the end of his career. I think why many on this forum use the team accomplishment/ quarterback argument, is due to the Manning/ Brady deal. You can't talk QB individual accomplishments and GOAT without factoring in Championships. It is the goal that matters most to all players and teams. Take the Mattingly/ Jeter Yankees example. Why is Jeter a legend, and Mattingly just a very good Yankee. Answer: 5 titles.

 

yes agreed . . . and just to add my thoughts on Elway's legacy . . . I do factor in the AFCCG wins and his three SB appearances prior to winning his two SBs . . . yes he had some help in the last two . . . but he did a great deal prior to his two SB wins . . . there are some that do not like to give Elway his due prior to the wins, but I do . . . but now that he has the two rings, his supporters can use that to quiet his critics . . .

[The Old Crow]

yes agreed . . . and just to add my thoughts on Elway's legacy . . . I do factor in the AFCCG wins and his three SB appearances prior to winning his two SBs . . . yes he had some help in the last two . . . but he did a great deal prior to his two SB wins . . . there are some that do not like to give Elway his due prior to the wins, but I do . . . but now that he has the two rings, his supporters can use that to quiet his critics . . .

It should all go in the mix. Division and conference championships, pro bowls etc. However to even get in the argument of GOAT, you need multiple Super Bowl wins.

[thedude]

What facts? That Luck was on a bigger stage as you called it? I.

Where, when?

[thedude]

Hard to imagine some team hasn't snapped you up for their front office.

Maybe he's been having conversations with the Raiders personnel team?

[Yehoodi]

It should all go in the mix. Division and conference championships, pro bowls etc. However to even get in the argument of GOAT, you need multiple Super Bowl wins.

 

Yes the mix should be larger than most sound bites some like to say . . . like "he never lost a SB" or "never threw and INT in a SB" and so on . . . its too easy to dismiss the discussion to a handful of seconds or a minute or so of talking . . . the discussion should have a wider breath .  . . . in other news and not to try to hijack the thread I am not as big a fan as many are of Montana and will give Bradshaw more credit than most want to give him, I think Montana does get some sound bite love . . . but agreed many will look to many SB/NFL Championship wins to help the argument as they should, but one stills needs a very strong resume behind them to be in the GOAT conversation . . .

[Yehoodi]

Players like to talk and Harris felt the need to make comment . . . I know most here are fans of Luck and I am also . . . I too felt in the last few years that I would want Luck on my team over his draft class and he appears to have the better pedigree and potential in the NFL . . . but as we know the HOF is not filled with just first rounders and many players lower in the draft have made it to the HOF; and have, over their respective careers, have outpaced their higher draft classmates . . .

 

Luck has had a great first few years in the league and will very likely continue to do so down the road . . . And although Seattle won the SB last year and are the flavor of the league this year (like Green Bay was in 2011) and all are touting them as the next great team . . . I like to see a couple of good dominate top of the conference/league status before we crown them with any sort of dominate crown . . . to date the jury, imo, is still out on that team . . .

 

However with that said . . . we need to give Russell Wilson his due to date . . . he has been in the league for two years . . . came to a team that had had four, I repeat, four losing season prior to his arrival, two of which included his present coach btw, now has two winning seasons, 11-5 and 13-3, is presently 2-1, in head to head game with the big four (Brady, Manning, Rogers. and Brees (yes Bogie I included Brees), he is presently 7-0 in these games, most of which were prime time type games with all of the hype surrounding them . . . no the QB is not totally responsible for wins, but none the less the man is 7-0 in these games . . .

 

For the most part the man does not make mistakes, which is why I was surprised by him not feeling the pressure from the end zone in that late game sack and threw the pick in the next series . . . but when he did get his chance to put the game away in OT, he calmly drove down field, took what the D gave him and threw or ran if necessary, and end the game with a drive . . . game over . . . thanks for showing up . . .

 

so although most of you still love Luck and will likely feel that way for the rest of his career if he stays in Indy . . . but you can not deny that there is a growing ground swell that support a finding that Wilson is a lot better than his draft status and could be viewed by some as more of a keeper than Luck . . . given what Wilson has done to date I can see where some are coming from . . .

[TAPLOOK]

The Seahawks are a better overall team than any other.  Is Russell Wilson better than luck?  No way Jose.  

 

When the Colts played the Broncos their defense gave up 24 first half points.  Seattle's d gave up 3.  If u don't understand what these numbers mean u don't get football.  

 

Ask yourself "would I trade my qb for theirs?"  I don't think u would find one taker that is a Colts fan.  Not so long ago Big Ben was the greatest ever running a similar team.  Big Ben is really good but nobody even hints at him being in the "elite" company of Manning and Brady anymore.

 

 

Who won that game?

[rsrobinson]

You know who thinks Luck is better than Wilson? Doug Baldwin. And he's on the same freaking team. Richard Sherman mentioned Andrew Luck as having the best arm of any QB in the NFL (he did call Luck the 5th "smartest" as opposed to Wilson's 4th). Trent Dilfer has said that he's been told by at least one veteran coach that Luck is "hands down" the best player in the NFL (QB or other position). I've never heard anyone knowledgeable make such a claim about Wilson.

What always gets me when people try to talk about how Wilson is better than Luck is the talk of "efficiency". Sure, his box score numbers would suggest he's more "efficient" than Luck since he has a higher career completion percentage and yards per attempt and a lower career interception total. I think any neutral observer would admit that Wilson has been aided in part by a superior cast around him (especially on defense) and that the running game he has with Marshawn Lynch sets up a more dangerous play action (half Wilsons tds last year). But even if we set all that aside, if he's so much more "efficient", why was his espn total QBR last year lower than Luck's despite being surrounded by such superior talent? And people saying "oh so far this year he's playing better than Luck" - again - his total QBR according to their metrics is lower despite having an easier team to quarterback.

QBR is a joke that no one outside of ESPN headquarters in Bristol, CT takes seriously. Josh McCown was the best quarterback in the league in 2013 according to QBR. Tony Romo threw a horrible pick six against the Rams on Sunday and still ended up with a near perfect 99.1 QBR somehow. Drew Stanton has completed 51.6% of his passes for 6.63 Y/A, 2 TD passes, and 14 yards rushing and is ranked in the top ten QBR, thirteen places higher than Wilson and three ahead of Luck. Does anyone who watches football really believe that Stanton has been outplaying Wilson or Luck this year or that Wilson (who leads the league in traditional passing rating with 108.9) has been the 23rd best quarterback in the league?

QBR is garbage.

[TAPLOOK]

This time a year ago, people were saying the same thing about Colin Kaepernick. That's the problem with being prisoner to the moment.

 

Actually you can dig my posts up on the subject. I said Kap was a flash in the pan. To risky at QB and the wrong demeanor for a leader. I also said that Wilson was by far the best of all the young QB's. Wilson has the "It" factor that eludes many of the most gifted athletes.

[crazycolt1]

What is your point then? You said Luck inherited a 2-14 team? He did not. The team was completely rebuilt with new players, coaches and new GM. It is not like the team had this long history of losing like the Seahawks for most of their existence save for 2005 when they made the SB. The Colts were in the playoffs the year prior, 2010.

What is my point? Are you serious? If you can't understand my point I can't explain it to you.

[crazycolt1]

Where, when?

It's self explanatory. If you do not understand it, it is over your head.

[crazycolt1]

You are ignorant to think Wilson doesn't have the "IT" factor.

 

Right now, the only QB i will take over Andrew Luck is Russell Wilson. Nick Foles is also joining this new group.

 

Its going to be fun watching Luck/Wilson/Foles for the next 10 years.

Because your opinion is not shared that makes a person ignorant? Real nice guy you are. No, not really.

[Superman]

Actually you can dig my posts up on the subject. I said Kap was a flash in the pan. To risky at QB and the wrong demeanor for a leader. I also said that Wilson was by far the best of all the young QB's. Wilson has the "It" factor that eludes many of the most gifted athletes.

 

I didn't say you said it, I said others said it. And things are much different now.

 

Wilson is the real deal, IMO. I just think referring to him as "the best right now" is kind of shortsighted, given how quickly things change in the NFL. Maybe you feel that he's been the best in the first three weeks of the season, but I don't think three games make a QB. Also, I don't think he's been the best QB through three weeks, but that's fine.

[ruksak]

What facts? That Luck was on a bigger stage as you called it? It self explanatory.

I'm not trying to argue with you. I never said anything about Luck being on a bigger stage. I said Wilson was, as in, the Super Bowl. I'm not sure you're following. 

 

 

Luck was the #1 overall pick, 3 years ago. That doesn't matter for squat now. What does matter is that both Luck and Wilson are terrific QB's. However, Wilson is a proven SB champion, and Luck is not. Does that make Wilson better? Of course not. But it does give him something. Whatever that is, I suppose is left to the individual to decide. 

[Superman]

What is your point then? You said Luck inherited a 2-14 team? He did not. The team was completely rebuilt with new players, coaches and new GM. It is not like the team had this long history of losing like the Seahawks for most of their existence save for 2005 when they made the SB. The Colts were in the playoffs the year prior, 2010.

 

Hardly any of the Colts players from 2010 (or 2011) were on the roster. Luck absolutely inherited a bad team, a team most people thought would struggle to win 4 games, coached by a rookie head coach, put together by a rookie GM. Let's not try to revise history here.

[ReMeDy]

Luck: 912 yards 9 TD's 3 INT's 69% completion %

 

Wilson: 651 yards 6 TD's 1 INT 69% completion %

 

I'd argue it. 

 

And that is with arguably two of our hardest opponents on our schedule out of the way in Denver and the Eagles. A number of creampuff opponents await us.

[crazycolt1]

We've had this argument many times on this forum, but even though rings are team accomplishments, they still weigh heavily in grading out the greatest QB's of all time. It may not be fair, but it is the way it is.

If what you say is true then Terry Bradshaw is the GOAT. He was 4 for 4 with 2 super bowl MVPs. Now there is the end of story if rings grade the GOAT.

[crazycolt1]

I'm not trying to argue with you. I never said anything about Luck being on a bigger stage. I said Wilson was, as in, the Super Bowl. I'm not sure you're following. 

 

 

Luck was the #1 overall pick, 3 years ago. That doesn't matter for squat now. What does matter is that both Luck and Wilson are terrific QB's. However, Wilson is a proven SB champion, and Luck is not. Does that make Wilson better? Of course not. But it does give him something. Whatever that is, I suppose is left to the individual to decide. 

Luck started out his first year on the biggest stage. That is what the original comment stated, not the super bowl. I think this whole thread has gotten much too deep over what some player from the Broncos said anyway. I really couldn't care less what some player from the Broncos has to say about Luck or Wilson. It seems way too many are.

[amfootball]

Hardly any of the Colts players from 2010 (or 2011) were on the roster. Luck absolutely inherited a bad team, a team most people thought would struggle to win 4 games, coached by a rookie head coach, put together by a rookie GM. Let's not try to revise history here.

Key word is "thought." He didn't inherit a bad team. Both the GM and coaches did a good job in year one putting a solid team around him. Not a great team but not a 2-14 team either.

[hoopster325]

Seahawks fan here.

 

The one point that hasn't really been made is that Wilson has had to play against the toughest defenses in the league the past few years, and still got the job done. I respect the Colts and no knock on Luck, but so far, the competition Luck has had to face over the course of a year just isn't in the same ballpark. Granted, you guys beat us last season, and Luck certainly was impressive, but one game against the Seahawks D isn't the same as the defenses Wilson has battled.

 

Just note, last year Wilson had to face the defenses of San Francisco 3 times (5th best overall defense, 7th in passing defense), New Orleans twice (4th overall defense, 2nd best pass defense), Arizona twice (6th best defense, 14th pass defense), Carolina once (2nd best overall defense, 6th best pass defense), New York Giants (7th overall defense, 10th pass defense), and Houston (7th overall defense, 3rd pass defense).....

 

Wilson's record against top 10 defenses last year was 8-2.

 

Contrarily Luck did go 3-2 against top 10 defenses as well which is absolutely impressive. I just think it should be noted the defensive competition level also may be suppressing Wilson's stats surely by 20% - 30%. Again this is not to take anything away from Luck at all as a player, but to show just how impressive Wilson's achievement really is when you consider how good the defenses he has had to face in 2 years truly are. And to add in a Super Bowl win, in a game where while the defense was dominant, on the offensive side it was Russell, NOT Lynch, who dominated the Denver D. 

 

Anyways, I like Luck and wish the best for your organization, but everything Wilson has done to date on and off the field has been just absolute class and thought I'd throw in my thoughts. 

[amfootball]

What is my point? Are you serious? If you can't understand my point I can't explain it to you.

Huh? You said he inherited a 2-14 team. He didn't. The team and org was blown up. He inherited a new team which was far from the one that took the field in 2011.

[sweetsurrender]

Huh? You said he inherited a 2-14 team. He didn't. The team and org was blown up. He inherited a new team which was far from the one that took the field in 2011.

Had the Colts had even a decent back up in 2011 they win 8 games. Their 2 wins was the product of never having a good back up behind Manning.

[sweetsurrender]

Huh? You said he inherited a 2-14 team. He didn't. The team and org was blown up. He inherited a new team which was far from the one that took the field in 2011.

The team was never very good though. But I think what happened to Pagano ignited them to perform well despite Luck's bumps the first season. Wilson inherited a team with a history of losing. They had several seasons of losing records before he arrived. And of course Carroll has done a masterfully job building it as well.

[amfootball]

The team was never very good though. But I think what happened to Pagano ignited them to perform well despite Luck's bumps the first season. Wilson inherited a team with a history of losing. They had several seasons of losing records before he arrived. And of course Carroll has done a masterfully job building it as well.

Yes, the Hawks were the ones with the history of ineptitude. They had four losing seasons prior to Wilson taking over.

[crazycolt1]

What is your point then? You said Luck inherited a 2-14 team? He did not. The team was completely rebuilt with new players, coaches and new GM. It is not like the team had this long history of losing like the Seahawks for most of their existence save for 2005 when they made the SB. The Colts were in the playoffs the year prior, 2010.

So you believe a team that has 90% new players, new GM and all new coaches (who were rookies) were more talented than what Wilson walked into? Sorry, I don't buy into that.

[hoopster325]

Key word is "thought." He didn't inherit a bad team. Both the GM and coaches did a good job in year one putting a solid team around him. Not a great team but not a 2-14 team either.

 

For the record, 2011 Seahawks had a top 10 defense, had Marshawn Lynch rushing for 1,200 yards/12 tds, had Richard Sherman, Brandon Browner, Earl Thomas, Kam Chancellor, KJ Wright, Chris Clemons, Mebane, Doug Baldwin, Golden Tate, etc. and they had the ultimate game manager, Tavaris Jackson.

 

That team went 7-9.

 

The biggest difference for Seahawks in 2012 was adding Russell Wilson. They went 11-5, and in the playoffs Wilson led a game winning drive, and nearly led Seattle to the NFC Championship against San Francisco. It was the defense who choked and allowed Ryan to drive down and get a field goal to win the game. That hadn't of happened and there's a good shot Wilson would have been in the Superbowl his rookie year. 

[amfootball]

So you believe a team that has 90% new players, new GM and all new coaches (who were rookies) were more talented than what Wilson walked into? Sorry, I don't buy into that.

That was not the point. You said he inherited a 2-14 team. He didn't. That is what I was refuting. And I think Grigson put a much better than expected team around Luck in 2012. That was obvious with them going 11-5 despite Luck's 23 TOs and losing their HC early on due to sickness and still getting 11 wins and a playoff berth.

 

Wilson's team was not great when he got it. Four losing seasons prior.

[Gavin]

Had the Colts had even a decent back up in 2011 they win 8 games. Their 2 wins was the product of never having a good back up behind Manning.

Meh had we have started Dan Orlovsky from week 1 they probably win 6-8 games

[hoopster325]

Meh had we have started Dan Orlovsky from week 1 they probably win 6-8 games

 

Whose better, Tavaris Jackson or Dan Orlovsky, cause Tavaris won 7 games in 2011 with 90% of the same team in place as when Wilson took over in 2012

[sweetsurrender]

Meh had we have started Dan Orlovsky from week 1 they probably win 6-8 games

Good point. I also do believe the Colts did somewhat tank the season to get Luck but I don't want to open up that can of worms.  ;)