Will Mahomes be viewed as a better all time QB than Peyton if he wins this years SuperBowl?

[jvan1973]

6 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

To this day, Bubba Smith who played in SB3, insists the Namath win was rigged.  But he doesn’t offer any proof.   He just refuses to accept that Baltimore lost fair and square.   But that doesn’t make it true.   It makes Bubba a sore loser.   There’s a big difference. 

The 2 smallest fan base teams in each conference could meet in the Superbowl and it would draw huge ratings like every other superbowl.  The NFL has zero reason to jeopardize the billions they make by scripting games.  It would also put a lot of people in jeopardy of going to prison.  To think outcomes are scripted is ridiculous.    I think refs blowing calls have changed outcomes of games in the final minutes.   I think with the technology available that shouldn't happen any more.    But to say a game or a season in scripted is some next level tin foil hat stuff

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, jvan1973 said:

The 2 smallest fan base teams in each conference could meet in the Superbowl and it would draw huge ratings like every other superbowl.  The NFL has zero reason to jeopardize the billions they make by scripting games.  It would also put a lot of people in jeopardy of going to prison.  To think outcomes are scripted is ridiculous.    I think refs blowing calls have changed outcomes of games in the final minutes.   I think with the technology available that shouldn't happen any more.    But to say a game or a season in scripted is some next level tin foil hat stuff

Basically what I am saying, I don't think it's rigged or scripted but when it comes to the REFS it should make anyone wonder if a REF doesn't favor 1 team over another when one team isn't getting any calls or gets screwed at the end of the game like the Saints did in 2018.

[jvan1973]

58 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Basically what I am saying, I don't think it's rigged or scripted but when it comes to the REFS it should make anyone wonder if a REF doesn't favor 1 team over another when one team isn't getting any calls or gets screwed at the end of the game like the Saints did in 2018.

Yeah. I get where you are coming from,  and I agree to a point.   A PI call or non call late can absolutely effect the outcome of a game.   But to say the NFL scripted it is nonsense.   Refs are human and things happen fast.  That's why I think they should rely on the technology available to determine if the ref gets it right or not.   I know you're not a tin foil hat guy

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

The 2 smallest fan base teams in each conference could meet in the Superbowl and it would draw huge ratings like every other superbowl.  The NFL has zero reason to jeopardize the billions they make by scripting games.  It would also put a lot of people in jeopardy of going to prison.  To think outcomes are scripted is ridiculous.    I think refs blowing calls have changed outcomes of games in the final minutes.   I think with the technology available that shouldn't happen any more.    But to say a game or a season in scripted is some next level tin foil hat stuff

Thank you, JVan….

 

Beautifully put.   One of your best posts.   I say that as my highest compliment!   Only sorry I can’t give you a thousand likes!!

 

                             
 

[throwing BBZ]

On 1/29/2024 at 9:07 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

You discount someone winning 5 League MVPs. Sometimes I wonder what goes through people's minds  . You do realize winning League MVP is an individual award, winning games is a team accomplishment. I get it, winning SBs is the goal and is why I give 1.5 points out to a QB for winning that game but to discredit someone for winning 5 League MVPs deserves a 

 

 I believe KC has been carried to their SB victories by Mahomes.

Manning was carried to Both of his SB wins by his D and running game.

His Colt SB win over Rex Grossman, came with 3 TDs and 7 int. Combined for the playoffs and SB.

 Denver was even more D and running game.

 Brees SB victory, no Colts fan will forget his pick 6.

  This does make me wonder how many MVP seasons he failed to win a playoff game. He did have 7 playoffs where he lost the first game. One and done.

 It was great watching Marvin destroy the opposition. One of the all-time great route runners, great hands, elite speed, Manning elevated his game over time to keep up with him. (Fewer flutter balls)

 I could go on regarding Polian keeping him in offensive weapons rather than building a D.  But it's to deaf ears.

[Yoshinator]

Here's my opinion on this SB. It's a solid SB overall, but the Chiefs could easily be viewed as being "rigged" to make the SB. Taylor Swift brings in an audience that may have never watched the NFL otherwise in any other setting. It could double viewership and ratings for the SB easily combined if you include peacock and cable tv. I'm not saying the Chiefs will definitely win, I'm just saying the Chiefs getting there will increase the ratings more than any AFC team ever would because Taylor Swift has a huge following. 

 

Yes, they are also a great team with the current best QB in the NFL, but everything can be true at once in order to come to this decision. I would have chosen the Lions for the David Vs Goliath story against the Chiefs if I were rigging it personally, but that's just me. This is the SB I was preparing for in my playoff bestballs as I chose McCaffrey first 7 times and followed it up with Mahomes and Kelce. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

39 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 I believe KC has been carried to their SB victories by Mahomes.

Manning was carried to Both of his SB wins by his D and running game.

His Colt SB win over Rex Grossman, came with 3 TDs and 7 int. Combined for the playoffs and SB.

 Denver was even more D and running game.

 Brees SB victory, no Colts fan will forget his pick 6.

  This does make me wonder how many MVP seasons he failed to win a playoff game. He did have 7 playoffs where he lost the first game. One and done.

 It was great watching Marvin destroy the opposition. One of the all-time great route runners, great hands, elite speed, Manning elevated his game over time to keep up with him. (Fewer flutter balls)

 I could go on regarding Polian keeping him in offensive weapons rather than building a D.  But it's to deaf ears.

I thought Peyton played well against the Pats and Bears during our 2006 run, the 1st 2 games are where he struggled but KC and Baltimore both had great defenses. Those 1st 2 games make his stats look bad. When it counted in the Title Game and SB, he had 3 TD's and 1 INT + a perfect Passer rating in the 2nd Half vs the Pats. The pick 6 in the SB against the Saints was kick to the nuts and probably the one play in Peyton's career he would love to have back. I can't defend him there but, had we even gone down and scored on that drive, it would have just tied it. Brees would have got the ball back with 3 minutes to go. So I still think we lose, we couldn't stop their offense the whole second Half. 

[Solid84]

It blows my mind everytime these discussions come up. I CANNOT fathom why people would want to watch this sport, pay for tickets, pay for merchandise, pay, pay, pay just to watch a predetermined outcome...

 

The minute I thought it was rigged I would be gone and I wouldn't be coming back.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, Solid84 said:

It blows my mind everytime these discussions come up. I CANNOT fathom why people would want to watch this sport, pay for tickets, pay for merchandise, pay, pay, pay just to watch a predetermined outcome...

 

The minute I thought it was rigged I would be gone and I wouldn't be coming back.

They probably do it because they enjoy the entertainment, plus even it was predetermined, the person watching still doesn't know ahead of time who will win. Me personally, I just get mad when there is monkey business going on by the REFS and it is obvious. I thought both Championship Games looked legit, the REFS weren't bad in those. There was a couple of questionable key penalties on the Ravens but it was because they caused it.

[Solid84]

10 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

They probably do it because they enjoy the entertainment, plus even it was predetermined, the person watching still doesn't know ahead of time who will win. Me personally, I just get mad when there is monkey business going on by the REFS and it is obvious. I thought both Championship Games looked legit, the REFS weren't bad in those. There was a couple of questionable key penalties on the Ravens but it was because they caused it.

I haven’t ever seen obvious “monkey business” by the refs or anyone else. Mistakes? Absolutely.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, Solid84 said:

I haven’t ever seen obvious “monkey business” by the refs or anyone else. Mistakes? Absolutely.

Can't have bad mistakes in Championship Games (mistakes yes, but not like that), ask Drew Brees and Sean Payton and how their fans feel after the 2018 NFC Title Game?

[Solid84]

15 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Can't have bad mistakes in Championship Games (mistakes yes, but not like that), ask Drew Brees and Sean Payton and how their fans feel after the 2018 NFC Title Game?

Mistakes happen, even bad mistakes, in big games. Doesn't mean the Refs are trying to manipulate the outcome of the game.

[NewColtsFan]

11 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Mistakes happen, even bad mistakes, in big games. Doesn't mean the Refs are trying to manipulate the outcome of the game.

Thank you!   Well said.    Appreciate you saying it!   

[Yoshinator]

4 hours ago, Solid84 said:

It blows my mind everytime these discussions come up. I CANNOT fathom why people would want to watch this sport, pay for tickets, pay for merchandise, pay, pay, pay just to watch a predetermined outcome...

 

The minute I thought it was rigged I would be gone and I wouldn't be coming back.

You watch movies and TV shows knowing it's a predetermined outcome. TV Shows especially have seasons that build off each other and there is character growth and a plot and a story being told. 99% of NFL fans watch shows like this every day. The hypocrisy of fans to not be able to tell the difference of the two is amazing.

[Boondoggle]

Yes.  I think so.  I see him as a modern day Elway, who had teams early on that could actually get it done vice him dragging them there and losing.  If he wins this one he is second only to Brady.

[cdgacoltsfan]

10 minutes ago, teganslaw said:

I'm not sure about Mahomes but an article stated that Travis Kelce would become the greatest TE in NFL history with a win. 

 

The NFL might do all they can to have KC win without actually cheating. For example, the refs not calling penalties on KC when they should. I have no proof this will happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Chiefs were shown favoritism throughout the game. I could be wrong, hope I am. Whatever, right now I have no interest in watching this year's Super Bowl. 

I'm rooting for the Chiefs. Mahomes is a good guy and obviously will go down as one of ,if not the greatest ,QBs of all times.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Here is a thought:

 

Something nobody is discussing, what if Mahomes loses this game? It is possible. If that happens, Mahomes wouldn't be ahead of Peyton in anything. Both would have 2 SB wins, 4 SB appearances, but Peyton has 5 League MVP'S, Mahomes 2. Peyton also has 14 playoff wins just like Mahomes. Peyton also holds the record for most Pass Yards and TDs in a season. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Here is a thought:

 

Something nobody is discussing, what if Mahomes loses this game? It is possible. If that happens, Mahomes wouldn't be ahead of Peyton in anything. Both would have 2 SB wins, 4 SB appearances, but Peyton has 5 League MVP'S, Mahomes 2. Peyton also has 14 playoff wins just like Mahomes. Peyton also holds the record for most Pass Yards and TDs in a season. 

Well, sure….   But even if that happens, and let’s call it 50/50 that it does happen….

 

Mahomes likely still has at least 8-10 more years to play.  So odds are he accomplishes much more before he’s done. 

[Yoshinator]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Here is a thought:

 

Something nobody is discussing, what if Mahomes loses this game? It is possible. If that happens, Mahomes wouldn't be ahead of Peyton in anything. Both would have 2 SB wins, 4 SB appearances, but Peyton has 5 League MVP'S, Mahomes 2. Peyton also has 14 playoff wins just like Mahomes. Peyton also holds the record for most Pass Yards and TDs in a season. 

Yeah, I agree with this 100%. If Mahomes loses Sunday, Peyton will still be better for now as their SB appearances and record would be tied and Peyton has the MVP edge. However, as NCF said, Mahomes will still play for 8-10 more years, so it's inevitable that he'll pass him up soon. It's just a matter of time. It may happen Sunday, or it may happen in a couple of years, but Mahomes will pass Peyton by at some point.

[2006Coltsbestever]

36 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Well, sure….   But even if that happens, and let’s call it 50/50 that it does happen….

 

Mahomes likely still has at least 8-10 more years to play.  So odds are he accomplishes much more before he’s done. 

FWIW, I have Mahomes 4th all-time already by many measures, even eye test. To put him ahead of Peyton or Montana based on this game is a stretch though, JMO. Many thought Aaron Rodgers would win at least 2 or 3 SBs after he won 1 in his 3rd season as a full-time starter. It never happened. He was getting GOAT talk after his SB win, now most just look at him as a top 7-10 QB of all-time.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Terry Bradshaw won 4 SBs and he is not a top 10 QB of all-time on any list I have ever seen. What makes him different in these GOAT talks? Is it because he looks goofy (sarcasm).

[2006Coltsbestever]

People that poo poo League MVPs, Aikman won 3 Sbs in his 1st 7 seasons. Where's he rank?

[Yoshinator]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

People that poo poo League MVPs, Aikman won 3 Sbs in his 1st 7 seasons. Where's he rank?

I consider Aikman a game manager tbh. He was on a stacked team and didn't have to do much. I have him behind Bradshaw and Montana obviously. Probably behind Marino and Favre who were better QBs IMO. I'd say Aikman is in the 10-15 range.

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 hours ago, Yoshinator said:

I consider Aikman a game manager tbh. He was on a stacked team and didn't have to do much. I have him behind Bradshaw and Montana obviously. Probably behind Marino and Favre who were better QBs IMO. I'd say Aikman is in the 10-15 range.

Yeah, I am pretty set with my top 8 SB era = (1966-2023):

1. Tom Brady

2. Joe Montana

3. Peyton Manning

4. Pat Mahomes

5. John Elway

6. Aaron Rodgers

7. Drew Brees

8. Brett Favre

 

My Criteria

Eye Test = how much does a QB carry their team. My 8 weren't just Game Managers.

 

SB wins as a starter.

SB appearances as a starter.

Overall wins = Regular Season and Playoffs as a starter.

League MVPs.

Stats.

Clutch Factor.

 

IMO, QBs like Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman were more like Game Managers. Great QBs but by my eye test didn't have to carry their teams a lot to win games.

 

Important:

QBs like Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, and Bart Starr are not included because most of their best years came before the SB era. My list is based on the best of the SB era only.

[Yoshinator]

7 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah, I am pretty set with my top 8 SB era = (1966-2023):

1. Tom Brady

2. Joe Montana

3. Peyton Manning

4. Pat Mahomes

5. John Elway

6. Aaron Rodgers

7. Drew Brees

8. Brett Favre

 

My Criteria

Eye Test = how much does a QB carry their team. My 8 weren't just Game Managers.

 

SB wins as a starter.

SB appearances as a starter.

Overall wins = Regular Season and Playoffs as a starter.

League MVPs.

Stats.

Clutch Factor.

 

IMO, QBs like Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman were more like Game Managers. Great QBs but by my eye test didn't have to carry their teams a lot to win games.

 

Important:

QBs like Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, and Bart Starr are not included because most of their best years came before the SB era. My list is based on the best of the SB era only.

That's a fair top 8. I have Marino in there instead of Brees, but I have Brees at no9, and Bradshaw at 10. 

 

We have the same top 5.

 

Aikman is a QB that isn't usually properly rated IMO. I think Cowboys fans generally overate him and have him top 10 all-time (which is too high to me), and non Cowboy fans have him outside the top 15 or lower (which is too low). 10-15 is about right IMO. I'd accept anything in that range. I have Steve Young in that 10-15 range as well.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, Yoshinator said:

That's a fair top 8. I have Marino in there instead of Brees, but I have Brees at no9, and Bradshaw at 10. 

 

Aikman is a QB that isn't usually properly rated IMO. I think Cowboys fans generally overate him and have him top 10 all-time (which is too high to me), and non Cowboy fans have him outside the top 15 or lower (which is too low). 10-15 is about right IMO. I'd accept anything in that range. I have Steve Young in that 10-15 range as well.

Only reason why I have Brees over Marino is because he did win a SB. Both QBs carried their teams and were equal but that SB win is what gives Brees the edge IMO. Dan Marino would be a Top 5 QB of all-time if SB wins wasn't a factor at all. I still can't believe he never won 1. Steve Young was better than Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman IMO. He was also a dual QB when there weren't many.

[Yoshinator]

6 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Only reason why I have Brees over Marino is because he did win a SB. Both QBs carried their teams and were equal but that SB win is what gives Brees the edge IMO. Dan Marino would be a Top 5 QB of all-time if SB wins wasn't a factor at all. I still can't believe he never won 1. Steve Young was better than Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman IMO. He was also a dual QB when there weren't many.

Steve Young is better than Bradshaw, but Bradshaw won 4 SBs, so I had to put him in the top 10.

 

Marino was one of the bad luck QBs who never won the SB. He's the greatest never to win a SB though IMO.

 

I'm watching Tom Telesco watch Draft Day highlights, and he's commenting on the accuracy of it and how it compares to the real thing. If you want to watch it, type NFL GM Breaks Down Scenes From Draft Day | LA Chargers on Youtube. I can't get Youtube Videos to appear on here anymore. Telesco just got fired by the Chargers a few weeks ago unfortunately.

 

It's the movie btw.

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, Yoshinator said:

Steve Young is better than Bradshaw, but Bradshaw won 4 SBs, so I had to put him in the top 10.

 

Marino was one of the bad luck QBs who never won the SB. He's the greatest never to win a SB though IMO.

 

I'm watching Tom Telesco watch Draft Day highlights, and he's commenting on the accuracy of it and how it compares to the real thing. If you want to watch it, type NFL GM Breaks Down Scenes From Draft Day | LA Chargers on Youtube. I can't get Youtube Videos to appear on here anymore. Telesco just got fired by the Chargers a few weeks ago unfortunately.

 

It's the movie btw.

Steve Young would have won 3 SBs had it not been for Dallas. By my eye test, the Cowboys from 1992-1995 were the greatest team I have ever seen. I look at that Cowboys team now and most of their players they had are just as quick, big, and strong as players are today and that was nearly 30 years ago. Aikman was the perfect Game Manager because he was very accurate and didn't Turn it Over, Emmitt was the Michael Jordan of Football in that 4 year span, Irvin is underrated on most WRs list because he doesn't have the all-time stats as some of the others, but he is a Top 10 WR of all-time IMO, Eye Test tells me that. Dallas' O.Line was a wall as well! Dallas' team speed on defense was unreal as well. That team had 0 weakness. Steve Young was able to get them in 1994, I was happy for him.

[Yoshinator]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Steve Young would have won 3 SBs had it not been for Dallas. By my eye test, the Cowboys from 1992-1995 were the greatest team I have ever seen. I look at that Cowboys team now and most of their players they had are just as quick, big, and strong as players are today and that was nearly 30 years ago. Aikman was the perfect Game Manager because he was very accurate and didn't Turn it Over, Emmitt was the Michael Jordan of Football in that 4 year span, Irvin is underrated on most WRs list because he doesn't have the all-time stats as some of the others, but he is a Top 10 WR of all-time IMO, Eye Test tells me that. Dallas' O.Line was a wall as well! Dallas' team speed on defense was unreal as well. That team had 0 weakness. Steve Young was able to get them in 1994, I was happy for him.

Yeah I agree with you. This is when I just started watching football as I was born in 87. So my memories of these teams at least from when they actually played are limited. The Cowboys and 49ers were incredible in this timeframe though. Hard to believe that was the last time the Cowboys were in the SB. A lot of Cowboys fans that are younger that brag about them have never been alive for a SB.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Yoshinator said:

Yeah I agree with you. This is when I just started watching football as I was born in 87. So my memories of these teams at least from when they actually played are limited. The Cowboys and 49ers were incredible in this timeframe though. Hard to believe that was the last time the Cowboys were in the SB. A lot of Cowboys fans that are younger that brag about them have never been alive for a SB.

Yeah, you probably have good memory of the 1995 Cowboys then (that would have put you at 8 years old), same year the Braves won it all . Same year Harbaugh almost got us to the SB. 

[Yoshinator]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah, you probably have good memory of the 1995 Cowboys then (that would have put you at 8 years old), same year the Braves won it all . Same year Harbaugh almost got us to the SB. 

Yeah 95 was a good year overall in sports. I admittedly wasn't a Colts fan for 3 years later when Manning got drafted here. The Braves WS victory was incredible for me at that time. I thought it would keep continuing. Never thought I'd have to wait until 2021 when I was 34 for them to win it again.

[2006Coltsbestever]

I would have loved to see that 1995 Dallas team play against teams like the 2006 Colts (Peyton), 2014 Patriots (Brady), 2019 Chiefs (Mahomes when he had Hill). More recent teams, that would be interesting. Dallas had a damn good quick defense, so rushing the QB would not be a problem for them. Charles Haley was a machine! They also had Deion in the secondary.

[Yoshinator]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I would have loved to see that 1995 Dallas team play against teams like the 2006 Colts (Peyton), 2014 Patriots (Brady), 2019 Chiefs (Mahomes when he had Hill). More recent teams, that would be interesting. Dallas had a damn good quick defense, so rushing the QB would not be a problem for them. Charles Haley was a machine! They also had Deion in the secondary.

Yeah those are some of the dream matches that would have been fun to see. Unfortunately, unlike wrestling, it's impossible to put those together as you'd need 53 man rosters lol and that isn't possible for various reasons. That Cowboys team was incredible though. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

12 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah, I am pretty set with my top 8 SB era = (1966-2023):

1. Tom Brady

2. Joe Montana

3. Peyton Manning

4. Pat Mahomes

5. John Elway

6. Aaron Rodgers

7. Drew Brees

8. Brett Favre

 

My Criteria

Eye Test = how much does a QB carry their team. My 8 weren't just Game Managers.

 

SB wins as a starter.

SB appearances as a starter.

Overall wins = Regular Season and Playoffs as a starter.

League MVPs.

Stats.

Clutch Factor.

 

IMO, QBs like Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman were more like Game Managers. Great QBs but by my eye test didn't have to carry their teams a lot to win games.

 

Important:

QBs like Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, and Bart Starr are not included because most of their best years came before the SB era. My list is based on the best of the SB era only.

I will say this, Favre should probably be 7th based on my criteria and Brees 8 because he has more League MVPs, but Favre threw a lot of INTs in the Playoffs that just killed his teams during his career from advancing quite a bit. He was much more erratic than Brees was. Brees was way more accurate as a thrower. Brees also could have won 2 League MVPs in reality being 2009 and 2011 - his stats and winning both were MVP type seasons. He lost out to Peyton in 2009 and Rodgers in 2011.

[King Colt]

No need to compare at this date. Wait until his career is ended. Right now he is showing the ability to do everything asked of him and much more on his own.

[sb41champs]

Patrick Mahomes - and - Peyton Manning play in two different time frames with some different rules and salary cap implications.

 

It is my personal opinion that players from different generations and skill sets shouldn't be "compared" to determine who is the best.

[runthepost]

Well make that 3 SB and 3 SB MVPs

[Indyfan4life]

Sigh. 

[chad72]

14 minutes ago, runthepost said:

Well make that 3 SB and 3 SB MVPs

Hard to argue that. 
 

Like I said, 5 more years of this level should get him 1 more MVP and 1 more SB, he should stand above Peyton then. 

 

Like Brady, he’s won back to back SBs, and won a SB in OT. But to the casual objective eye, his ice in his veins is met only by Tom Brady in playoffs, IMO, hate to admit that.

 

Brady and Burrow are the only two QBs that have beaten Mahomes in the playoffs, go figure. Amazing run so far.

 

[holeymoley99]

Brady will always have the * it is known he cheated no one will debate that , Mahomes like him or hate him and many on both sides did it legally. He is on pace to shatter many records. Time will tell if he surpasses Peyton as #1,as a Colts fan I hope not.  When it comes to winning no one will every touch Otto Graham as he won 7 titles in 10 years and the 3 he didnt his club was runner up. Different era but that feat is impressive any time.