Will Mahomes be viewed as a better all time QB than Peyton if he wins this years SuperBowl?

[Tsarquise]

52 minutes ago, Yoshinator said:

Notice the Pats aren't on here at all. They were the reason most of the teams on this list are on the list. They had to beat the Pats in those years, and the Pats didn't have to beat themselves. The Colts in 2006 as the big example for us. We had to beat them in the AFC title game. That was harder than the SB Vs the Bears.

True. But New England is on the list. Click the link. They are on the list twice right below the Colts. 2004 and 2018. I'm sure the Colts contributed to their difficulty in 2004. 

 

Baltimore and the Bears were really good that year too. 

55 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Ravens, Bears and Patriots were the Top 3 Ds in the ENTIRE league in 2006. Let us not shortchange Peyton's only SB as a Colt.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2006/opp.htm

 

I agree with Mahomes' SB argument but it was not an easy path, the Colts path to our only SB under Peyton.

 

Exactly! 

 

He didn't have an easy path at all. 

[chad72]

53 minutes ago, Yoshinator said:

That's an amazing stat with the bolded. I actually never knew that, but Brady was always a top seed in the playoffs with the AFC East being a cakewalk that it doesn't surprise me. He was very fortunate on Tampa then. I didn't even think about Covid taking away the crowd from him. That whole playoff year was set up perfectly for him. 

 

Yep, we used to talk about how luck would smile on Brady so many times, another instance of it. But then, when you play big in big moments and don't give too much to the opposition, eventually the opposition might get tight and make mistakes and we describe it as luck.

 

The accidental touch on the punt that gave the Chiefs close field position in the red zone to go up 13-10, folks would say the Chiefs got lucky but sports is a mental game and a lot of players, before they walked on to the field, felt the pressure of playing Brady and The Patriots knowing they had to go 60 minutes without many mistakes. Only The Giants ended up actually playing that way against Brady and Belichick in the SB to win.

 

The 3rd SB loss to the Eagles for the Patriots, I chalk it up to Matt Patricia and his horrendous D and Belichick's power play to bench Malcolm Butler. Brady threw for a SB record 505 yards and 3 TDs and still lost to the Eagles SB, thanks to Foles' lightning in a bottle display on offense. Brady's success against Jim Schwartz who was DC of the Eagles, made me question his hyped greatness on D, and Stroud with the Texans exposed it as well in the playoff game vs Browns. It is a shame Schwartz was named best DC while Mike McDonald of Ravens, who trounced every metric possible as Ravens' DC, came in second.

[bluebombers87]

5 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

Terry Bradshaw? Only this year would qualify for a Terry Bradshaw because of the Chiefs D but still Peyton had his best D in 2005 and still stunk it vs the Steelers while Mahomes seized opportunities to be clutch. 

 

He won the last 2 SBs without Tyreek Hill, not a single All Pro WR for 2 of his 3 SBs. But then, I do remember based on your history, and conversation before the first Chiefs vs 49ers SB distinctly that you were never a fan of his style of play or the hype he got. I am definitely not expecting any praise of Mahomes from your end. The fact that you even admitted that we can have a nuanced discussion is a miracle, IMO.  

 

Manning got shortchanged by Bill Polian and Tony Dungy on a few fronts with the roster construction on D and special teams, no doubt but it was Manning that played with All Pro WRs for pretty much his ENTIRE playoff career. 

 

 

Terry Bradshaw was used as an example of a QB benefitting greatly from their surroundings. Like coaching, which I specifically mentioned.
 

While not an all-pro, he did have Smith-Schuster who had a pretty solid year. And let’s not forget Kelce who had career highs or nearly for 2022.
 

Had you ever considered the QB has a significant impact on their WRs? Harrison for example was good but not great until after Manning arrived. First year together and Harrison played 12 games. After that, his numbers explode.

 

Compare Blair White and Kadarius Toney. Manning got more out of Blair White than Mahomes has gotten out of Toney. 

Why is it a miracle? I said prior to his first SB win that he needed to prove himself. He has.  But I’m still not ready to anoint him and fanboy all over his junk. Hence, why I’m having this conversation and pointing out he’s had a lot of things go his way to begin a career. Something very few players in the QB role get. 

[chad72]

11 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

Terry Bradshaw was used as an example of a QB benefitting greatly from their surroundings. Like coaching, which I specifically mentioned.
 

While not an all-pro, he did have Smith-Schuster who had a pretty solid year. And let’s not forget Kelce who had career highs or nearly for 2022.
 

Had you ever considered the QB has a significant impact on their WRs? Harrison for example was good but not great until after Manning arrived. First year together and Harrison played 12 games. After that, his numbers explode.

 

Compare Blair White and Kadarius Toney. Manning got more out of Blair White than Mahomes has gotten out of Toney. 

Why is it a miracle? I said prior to his first SB win that he needed to prove himself. He has.  But I’m still not ready to anoint him and fanboy all over his junk. Hence, why I’m having this conversation and pointing out he’s had a lot of things go his way to begin a career. Something very few players in the QB role get. 

 

Yeah, you say JuJu had a solid year and turn around and say Manning made Harrison while ignoring Mahomes made JuJu and got him his ridiculous 3 year contract with the Patriots.

 

Toney is not an NFL caliber WR, if you bothered to study his work ethic and abilities, just a razzle dazzle east-west punt returner type who doesn't know to run routes and doesn't have discipline that despite all the leeway Andy Reid gave him, Toney still didn't know how to run routes that he resulted in pick sixes and INTs with balls that hit him in his hands. No wonder the Giants were ready to give up on him and he was a healthy scratch this SB. His notable plays obviously was a punt return in the Eagles SB, which is all that he is suited for. He is what you call an "athlete without much between his ears".

 

Absolutely shows your bias and lack of depth of understanding the players you quote. Marvin had a super high floor and ceiling as a first rounder, and ran circles around every DB he faced. Even with a QB worth 50-75% of Peyton, Marvin would have still been a Pro Bowler.

 

I can't argue with your bias.

[bluebombers87]

54 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Yeah, you say JuJu had a solid year and turn around and say Manning made Harrison while ignoring Mahomes made JuJu and got him his ridiculous 3 year contract with the Patriots.

 

Toney is not an NFL caliber WR, if you bothered to study his work ethic and abilities, just a razzle dazzle east-west punt returner type who doesn't know to run routes and doesn't have discipline that despite all the leeway Andy Reid gave him, Toney still didn't know how to run routes that he resulted in pick sixes and INTs with balls that hit him in his hands. No wonder the Giants were ready to give up on him and he was a healthy scratch this SB. His notable plays obviously was a punt return in the Eagles SB, which is all that he is suited for. He is what you call an "athlete without much between his ears".

 

Absolutely shows your bias and lack of depth of understanding the players you quote. Marvin had a super high floor and ceiling as a first rounder, and ran circles around every DB he faced. Even with a QB worth 50-75% of Peyton, Marvin would have still been a Pro Bowler.

 

I can't argue with your bias.

Please show me where I said the QB makes the WR. I asked you to consider the impact the QB has. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

 

It’s interesting that you say JuJu was made by Mahomes (in one season) even though he didn’t even come close to the best year he had with Ben in Pittsburgh.  

 

And Toney may not be an NFL caliber receiver but Blair White wasn’t either (as indicated by his only being in the league for two years). Toney has had twice as many starts as White.

 

Also please indicate where I said Harrison wouldn’t have been good? I specifically stated he was good in those first two years without him. Manning comes along and he is taken to another level (see that’s that whole impact the QB makes I was talking about).

 

I’m more than happy to discuss opinions but insulting someone is not conducive to discussion. If you’re unable to keep from being this way then we can end it here.

[smittywerb]

6 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/manning-agrees-to-restructure-contract/#:~:text=Peyton Manning has agreed to,million in salary cap space.

 

 

Ok, didn’t know this.  Thanks for the info!  
 

but Once again, this is after signing a record contract.  See the second paragraph in my previous response.  

[jvan1973]

14 minutes ago, smittywerb said:

Ok, didn’t know this.  Thanks for the info!  
 

but Once again, this is after signing a record contract.  See the second paragraph in my previous response.  

Mahomes also signed a record contract.   He's restructure also got him more guaranteed money.   So I'm not sure what your point is. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:48 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

People can disagree with my rankings all they want but I still have Peyton 3rd but it is by a hair over Mahomes now. Championships are a huge measuring stick but so are League MVP's. You guys can poo poo League MVP's all you want but Peyton has won 5 to Mahomes 2 and that award is real difficult to win. IMO, Mahomes still needs to win another League MVP which he may very well do before I put him ahead of Peyton. Mahomes only has 1 more SB  win (3-2), he should win more but it is not a given. Tom Brady went from 2005-2013 without winning 1.

 

My all-time list still remains (SB era only 1966-2023)

1. Tom Brady

2. Joe Montana 

3. Peyton Manning by a hair

4. Pat Mahomes

5. John Elway (Johnny Unitas is #5 if all era's are included)

I will stick with this for now. I want to add, Terry Bradshaw who won 4 SBs and Troy Aikman who won 3, were not better than Dan Marino all-time and he won 0. Eye test would tell anyone that. That is why my criteria even has flaws. I have Bradshaw and Aikman somewhere between 13-15 = (all era's included). Those 2 were the best game managers football has ever seen, and they usually didn't screw anything up, hence the SB wins.

[smittywerb]

12 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Mahomes also signed a record contract.   He's restructure also got him more guaranteed money.   So I'm not sure what your point is. 

Mahomes record contract is in regards to the total.  His salary cap hit per year will be adjusted as he will most likely restructure every year and push the money down.  That’s why they made it 10 years.  They have 10 years to keep restructuring as the team needs him to in order to keep and acquire talent.  Look at sportrac and some of the years on his contract, the cap hit is less than $40mill in the future for multiple years lol.  We both know that isn’t going to stay the same.  So yes, you are right, Mahomes contract is record breaking, but it works for him and the team so they can stay competitive.

 

what I’m getting at with manning is he didn’t give the colts that option.  I understand irsay made it a point to keep him the highest paid qb but manning could’ve said “no, I want to help the team build up”.  Manning has every right to his money, I’m just comparing him to Brady and Mahomes and why those 2 were able to keep talent on both sides around while manning and the colts had to penny pinch.  

now I will say, I would love to see what the hits of Mahomes contract will be later, but right now it’s working great for the chiefs.  But that’s about 3-5 years down the line before this contract really becomes heavy.  

[Dingus McGirt]

Two different styles of QB playing in two different types of NFL, IMO.  Manning RAN the offense.  Never saw him wear a wristband with the playlist on it.  

Both great, both at the top in their play time.

[chad72]

39 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

Two different styles of QB playing in two different types of NFL, IMO.  Manning RAN the offense.  Never saw him wear a wristband with the playlist on it.  

Both great, both at the top in their play time.

That WAS the biggest difference. Manning was the OC on the field. Mahomes gets a lot of help from Reid though he’s been a better QB since they shipped out Tyreek, and the better team support like with Brady and the Patriots.

The timely use of legs when necessary combined with the ability to read Ds is the next QB evolution 
 

 

[shasta519]

21 hours ago, Tsarquise said:

Dvoa says otherwise:

 

 

It was an easy path of QBs and team offenses…that’s why I listed QBs.

 

I am sure teams like BAL and CHI had their overall team DVOA heavily skewed due to their defense that year, so the strength of the overall team DVOA in that run doesn’t surprise me. 
 

The Colts defense actually carried the Colts through most of that run. Manning did not have a good playoffs. 

 

But that stat just reinforces what I said about Mahomes. We are beyond comparing him to Peyton. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

27 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

It was an easy path of QBs and team offenses…that’s why I listed QBs.

 

I am sure teams like BAL and CHI had their overall team DVOA heavily skewed due to their defense that year, so the strength of the overall team DVOA in that run doesn’t surprise me. 
 

The Colts defense actually carried the Colts through most of that run. Manning did not have a good playoffs. 

 

But that stat just reinforces what I said about Mahomes. We are beyond comparing him to Peyton. 

Not trying to be a Homer by defending the Colts Title run in 2006 but for anyone to say that was an easy path to a SB is mindboggling. You do realize the Ravens were 4 point favorites to beat us and to go into Baltimore and win that was a great accomplishment. McNair was still a good QB as well + they had Ray Lewis and Ed Reed in their primes to deal with. McNair wasn't like the previous average QB's they had prior to him. Peyton also had a perfect Passer Rating in the 2nd Half vs the Patriots, was clutch with a game winning drive, and he went through Tom Brady to win the AFC. People can talk about Rex Grossman being a chump all they want but the AFC was loaded that season. 

 

People that just look at 7 INT's and 3 TD's during that run are so narrowminded. AFC Title Game and SB he was 3 TD's and only 1 INT. He had several INT's because he struggled a bit against KC who by the way had arguably the best secondary in the league led by TY Law. 

[Chrisaaron1023]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

The timely use of legs when necessary combined with the ability to read Ds is the next QB evolution

Yes sir exactly. 

 

I won't compare the two, but it seems the rest of the media has moved on to just Pat vs Brady.. But I'd even lean more to Pat over Brady because it's impossible to stop him because he can run.. when the chiefs get to a critical 4th and short what play do they run almost always? The option or quick pass roll out when Tyreek was there. Peyton and Brady weren't doing either of those plays...

 

I'm passed the whole GOAT conversation. Because its all about career accomplishments. I'm STILL not convinced Brady is better than Manning hahah

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

Yes sir exactly. 

 

I won't compare the two, but it seems the rest of the media has moved on to just Pat vs Brady.. But I'd even lean more to Pat over Brady because it's impossible to stop him because he can run.. when the chiefs get to a critical 4th and short what play do they run almost always? The option or quick pass roll out when Tyreek was there. Peyton and Brady weren't doing either of those plays...

 

I'm passed the whole GOAT conversation. Because its all about career accomplishments. I'm STILL not convinced Brady is better than Manning hahah

That is like the media acting like it is Jordan vs LeBron. Complete nonsense. Magic has more Championships than LeBron does, so does Kobe if someone wants to go Championships. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

One last thing, Peyton has beat Brady 3 times in a AFC Championship Game and is 3-1 vs him in those games. Mahomes lost to Brady both times he played him on the big stage. Once in the AFC Championship Game, that was even at KC, then in the SB where Tom's Team blew him out. Mahomes 0-2, Peyton 3-1 vs the GOAT Tom Brady. Enough said. 

[shasta519]

21 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

Ravens, Bears and Patriots were the Top 3 Ds in the ENTIRE league in 2006. Let us not shortchange Peyton's only SB as a Colt.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2006/opp.htm

 

I agree with Mahomes' SB argument but it was not an easy path, the Colts path to our only SB under Peyton.

 

Not short-changing the team. But that run wasn’t the result of Manning beating really good defenses (outside of 2H of AFCCG). He had 3 TDs and 7 INTs in 4 games with a 71 passer rating. In the first two games, he had 1 TD and 5 INTs. If any QB today did that, their team is not 2-0 after two games.

 

The Colts defense stepped up and shut down teams and the run game was very effective. And a large reason the defense was able to do that is because they got back Bob, but also because of their offensive opponents. 
 

Winning the SB is never “easy,” so I take back the use of that word. But the path was advantageous that year. Even NE wasn’t even that strong. Colts had beat them earlier in the year. And they somehow managed to knock off a 14-win SD team, who was the best team in the NFL and a team Manning was 1-5 against (including two playoff games) from 2005-2010.

[chad72]

16 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

One last thing, Peyton has beat Brady 3 times in a AFC Championship Game and is 3-1 vs him in those games. Mahomes lost to Brady both times he played him on the big stage. Once in the AFC Championship Game, that was even at KC, then in the SB where Tom's Team blew him out. Mahomes 0-2, Peyton 3-1 vs the GOAT Tom Brady. Enough said. 

 

Mahomes won't get a chance though to make up for that though. Peyton was 1-1 from 2006 in AFCCG, and then 1-2 in the playoffs till 2013 vs Brady and then went 2-0 as a Bronco. So there is a good chance if Brady and Mahomes played a few more years after 2020 and met in the playoffs enough times, Mahomes would have leveled it or gotten ahead. Just that Brady is retired.  

 

That is why fans have moved on to Burrow vs Mahomes and Bengals fans keep reminding Chiefs fans Burrow is 3-1 vs Mahomes and Chiefs fans remind him that Mahomes is 1-0 in the playoffs where it matters more. To me, you can always pick up small sample space stats in the ultimate team game. The QB gets too much credit and blame, we know that.

 

To me, Peyton revolutionized the game before Brady became a great QB, IMO, and Brady has said so many times all the things he learnt from watching Peyton. Mahomes is the next QB evolution. So, in a way both were trend setters for the QB position in their prime in this league. Each were great in their own way and 20 years from now, Mahomes being ranked higher than Peyton won't take away any of Peyton's greatness and vice versa.

[2006Coltsbestever]

12 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Mahomes won't get a chance though to make up for that though. Peyton was 1-1 from 2006 in AFCCG, and then 1-2 in the playoffs till 2013 vs Brady and then went 2-0 as a Bronco. So there is a good chance if Brady and Mahomes played a few more years after 2020 and met in the playoffs enough times, Mahomes would have leveled it or gotten ahead. Just that Brady is retired.  

 

That is why fans have moved on to Burrow vs Mahomes and Bengals fans keep reminding Chiefs fans Burrow is 3-1 vs Mahomes and Chiefs fans remind him that Mahomes is 1-0 in the playoffs where it matters more. 

 

To me, Peyton revolutionized the game before Brady became a great QB, IMO. Mahomes was the next QB evolution. So, in a way both were trend setters for the QB position when they were in their prime in their league. Each were great in their own way and 20 years from now, Mahomes being ranked higher than Peyton won't take away any of Peyton's greatness and vice versa.

I like Mahomes, so it really doesn't bother me one way or the other but so many people think Mahomes already is better, so I am pointing out things that Peyton has on him. I don't think it is clear cut. I also love how 80's players get dissed (sarcasm), 1st it was Magic getting leaped frogged by LeBron and now it is Montana people are crapping on. Funny but really dumb.

[chad72]

9 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I like Mahomes, so it really doesn't bother me one way or the other but so many people think Mahomes already is better, so I am pointing out things that Peyton has on him. I don't think it is clear cut. I also love how 80's players get dissed (sarcasm), 1st it was Magic getting leaped frogged by LeBron and now it is Montana people are crapping on. Funny but really dumb.

 

Yeah, Peyton was an OC on the field, Mahomes is not at that level yet but should get there soon, he has a great coach in Reid helping him there. Each revolutionized the QB position in their prime and like we went through this with Peyton vs Brady, I just don't think it is necessary to diss Brady to prop up Peyton or vice versa. Same thing with Mahomes and Peyton. 

[Chrisaaron1023]

25 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Mahomes is the next QB evolution. So, in a way both were trend setters for the QB position in their prime in this league.

This may just be my age speaking... but I feel like Aaron Rodgers started this trend of QB's great mind, mobility, and backyard style of football. I will forever feel bad for him though, because his luck in the Playoffs was about the same or maybe worse than Peyton's.

[chad72]

3 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

This may just be my age speaking... but I feel like Aaron Rodgers started this trend of QB's great mind, mobility, and backyard style of football. I will forever feel bad for him though, because his luck in the Playoffs was about the same or maybe worse than Peyton's.

 

Considering the fact that Rodgers turned over the ball far less than Peyton in the regular season and the playoffs, I would say yeah, he has had crappy Ds and special teams in a way a bit worse than Peyton if I had to look at it based on how often they would get blown out by the finesse Falcons and 49ers type of teams in the NFCCG if he made it that far. Just that Mahomes and his baseball background made some unrealistic arm angles possible that took the league by surprise his first year of starting.

[Chrisaaron1023]

1 minute ago, chad72 said:

 

Considering the fact that Rodgers turned over the ball far less than Peyton in the regular season and the playoffs, I would say yeah, he has had crappy Ds and special teams in a way a bit worse than Peyton if I had to look at it based on how often they would get blown out by the finesse Falcons and 49ers type of teams in the NFCCG if he made it that far.

 

Seahawks scored got an onsides kicked scored again and won in OT (without him touching the ball)

Completes not 1 but 2 hail mary's against the cardinals. only to watch larry fitz catch a slant and just about take it to the house.

bucs game they kick a fg down 8 instead of letting Aaron go for it. he never touched the ball again

49ers block a punt for a td and win with a fg..

 

 

[chad72]

2 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

 

Seahawks scored got an onsides kicked scored again and won in OT (without him touching the ball)

Completes not 1 but 2 hail mary's against the cardinals. only to watch larry fitz catch a slant and just about take it to the house.

bucs game they kick a fg down 8 instead of letting Aaron go for it. he never touched the ball again

49ers block a punt for a td and win with a fg..

 

 

Yep, his teams played bad situational ball under Mike McCarthy. Cowboys fans can't get their hopes up based on that.  

[shasta519]

22 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Not trying to be a Homer by defending the Colts Title run in 2006 but for anyone to say that was an easy path to a SB is mindboggling. You do realize the Ravens were 4 point favorites to beat us and to go into Baltimore and win that was a great accomplishment. McNair was still a good QB as well + they had Ray Lewis and Ed Reed in their primes to deal with. McNair wasn't like the previous average QB's they had prior to him. Peyton also had a perfect Passer Rating in the 2nd Half vs the Patriots, was clutch with a game winning drive, and he went through Tom Brady to win the AFC. People can talk about Rex Grossman being a chump all they want but the AFC was loaded that season. 

 

People that just look at 7 INT's and 3 TD's during that run are so narrowminded. AFC Title Game and SB he was 3 TD's and only 1 INT. He had several INT's because he struggled a bit against KC who by the way had arguably the best secondary in the league led by TY Law. 

 

Manning had 2 TDs and 2 INTs in the AFCCG and SB...and one rush TD. You can't talk about being narrow-minded and then just narrow your focus on those two games.

 

The Colts dodged the best team in the AFC (SD), was knocked out by a NE team in a fluky manner. So the AFC path for them wasn't that loaded.

 

Manning did not play well overall, outside of the 2H of that NE game. He was awful in the first two games. They were able to overcome it because the defense stepped up. Mahomes has not and will not have that luxury. 

[GoColts8818]

6 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

Mahomes won't get a chance though to make up for that though. Peyton was 1-1 from 2006 in AFCCG, and then 1-2 in the playoffs till 2013 vs Brady and then went 2-0 as a Bronco. So there is a good chance if Brady and Mahomes played a few more years after 2020 and met in the playoffs enough times, Mahomes would have leveled it or gotten ahead. Just that Brady is retired.  

 

That is why fans have moved on to Burrow vs Mahomes and Bengals fans keep reminding Chiefs fans Burrow is 3-1 vs Mahomes and Chiefs fans remind him that Mahomes is 1-0 in the playoffs where it matters more. To me, you can always pick up small sample space stats in the ultimate team game. The QB gets too much credit and blame, we know that.

 

To me, Peyton revolutionized the game before Brady became a great QB, IMO, and Brady has said so many times all the things he learnt from watching Peyton. Mahomes is the next QB evolution. So, in a way both were trend setters for the QB position in their prime in this league. Each were great in their own way and 20 years from now, Mahomes being ranked higher than Peyton won't take away any of Peyton's greatness and vice versa.

Burrow won an AFCCG in Kansas City…

[chad72]

15 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Burrow won an AFCCG in Kansas City…

 

Sorry, you are right. How could I forget? It is 1-1, that is where the Burrow legend began, had a brain fart. Thanks!!!  

 

Just that Burrow couldn't cash in.

[jvan1973]

6 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Manning had 2 TDs and 2 INTs in the AFCCG and SB...and one rush TD. You can't talk about being narrow-minded and then just narrow your focus on those two games.

 

The Colts dodged the best team in the AFC (SD), was knocked out by a NE team in a fluky manner. So the AFC path for them wasn't that loaded.

 

Manning did not play well overall, outside of the 2H of that NE game. He was awful in the first two games. They were able to overcome it because the defense stepped up. Mahomes has not and will not have that luxury. 

He also took what the Bears were giving him in the Super Bowl.  During the broadcast you couldn't see the Bears linebackers in the frame.   It's why they ran the ball 40 times. Peyton checked into runs the entire night

[chad72]

21 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

He also took what the Bears were giving him in the Super Bowl.  During the broadcast you couldn't see the Bears linebackers in the frame.   It's why they ran the ball 40 times. Peyton checked into runs the entire night

 

To remind everyone, it had NEVER rained for most of a Super Bowl till then. Manning did the right things that put us in the best spot to win in that SB against an outstanding D that still forced a few turnovers.

 

The other aspect is, Peyton would always face 2 safeties back. So, in order to send a message that he wasn't going to shy away from taking his shots, he tended to test the safeties deep into their territory, happened in both the Ravens divisional round game and the SB, which I felt was by design. It kept the safeties from creeping up, both of them and helped with the run. It was always very early in the game he did that. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

13 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Manning had 2 TDs and 2 INTs in the AFCCG and SB...and one rush TD. You can't talk about being narrow-minded and then just narrow your focus on those two games.

 

The Colts dodged the best team in the AFC (SD), was knocked out by a NE team in a fluky manner. So the AFC path for them wasn't that loaded.

 

Manning did not play well overall, outside of the 2H of that NE game. He was awful in the first two games. They were able to overcome it because the defense stepped up. Mahomes has not and will not have that luxury. 

Yeah I was counting the 1 rush TD he had. He also completed a huge 2 pt conversion to tie the game vs the Pats. The 2 biggest games of any season is the Championship Game and SB. In 2006, Peyton played good in both. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

In all honesty if someone had a list of:

 

1. Tom Brady 

2. Joe Montana 

3. Pat Mahomes 

4. Peyton Manning 

-I can see why, so no bigge. Having said that Joe Montana won 4 SBs, won 1 on a last minute drive, won 3 SB MVPs, and won 2 League MVPs. For the media or any fan that thinks Mahomes should leapfrog Joe needs heavy explaining to do there. He has nothing on Joe.

[Tsarquise]

17 hours ago, shasta519 said:

Not short-changing the team. But that run wasn’t the result of Manning beating really good defenses (outside of 2H of AFCCG). He had 3 TDs and 7 INTs in 4 games with a 71 passer rating. In the first two games, he had 1 TD and 5 INTs. If any QB today did that, their team is not 2-0 after two games.

 

The Colts defense stepped up and shut down teams and the run game was very effective. And a large reason the defense was able to do that is because they got back Bob, but also because of their offensive opponents. 
 

Winning the SB is never “easy,” so I take back the use of that word. But the path was advantageous that year. Even NE wasn’t even that strong. Colts had beat them earlier in the year. And they somehow managed to knock off a 14-win SD team, who was the best team in the NFL and a team Manning was 1-5 against (including two playoff games) from 2005-2010.

Funny enough, the Chargers three losses that year came from the Chiefs, Ravens and Patriots. Colts path to the Superbowl. 

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

In all honesty if someone had a list of:

 

1. Tom Brady 

2. Joe Montana 

3. Pat Mahomes 

4. Peyton Manning 

-I can see why, so no bigge. Having said that Joe Montana won 4 SBs, won 1 on a last minute drive, won 3 SB MVPs, and won 2 League MVPs. For the media or any fan that thinks Mahomes should leapfrog Joe needs heavy explaining to do there. He has nothing on Joe.

I’ll give you more ammunition…. 
 

Back when the Niners were Kings of the 80’s and early 90’s, look who was winning when San Fran wasn’t….   The NFC was loaded with some of the greatest teams of all-time…

 

 

Chicago with one of the greatest defenses of all-time. 
 

NY Giants with one of the greatest defenses of all-time and a HoF HC. 
 

Wash with three different QB’s and a Hall of Fame HC. 

 

And Dallas with Two HoF coaches and great defenses.  
 

That’s four other great franchises that were at their peak.   And SF was the best of them all.   That’s what Montana was up against.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

I’ll give you more ammunition…. 
 

Back when the Niners were Kings of the 80’s and early 90’s, look who was winning when San Fran wasn’t….   The NFC was loaded with some of the greatest teams of all-time…

 

 

Chicago with one of the greatest defenses of all-time. 
 

NY Giants with one of the greatest defenses of all-time and a HoF HC. 
 

Wash with three different QB’s and a Hall of Fame HC. 

 

And Dallas with Two HoF coaches and great defenses.  
 

That’s four other great franchises that were at their peak.   And SF was the best of them all.   That’s what Montana was up against.  

Fantastic post. I just don't want anyone overlooking Joe. I was old enough like you to watch his whole career .

 

Also if people want to put Peyton 4th that isn't a huge dis. 4th out of thousands that have played QB in the NFL is still Mt Rushmore material. 

[chad72]

4 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I’ll give you more ammunition…. 
 

Back when the Niners were Kings of the 80’s and early 90’s, look who was winning when San Fran wasn’t….   The NFC was loaded with some of the greatest teams of all-time…

 

 

Chicago with one of the greatest defenses of all-time. 
 

NY Giants with one of the greatest defenses of all-time and a HoF HC. 
 

Wash with three different QB’s and a Hall of Fame HC. 

 

And Dallas with Two HoF coaches and great defenses.  
 

That’s four other great franchises that were at their peak.   And SF was the best of them all.   That’s what Montana was up against.  

 

No wonder the Bills went 0-4 in SBs because of a strong NFC that ended in a Cowboys dynasty before the salary cap era.

 

However, for the other teams that "wanted" to be up there, nothing helped as much as the salary cap, it was the true equalizer. Chicago, NY Giants, 49ers have made the SBs since then but not Washington and Dallas. Out of these 5 NFC stalwarts, only the NY Giants have won the SB since the salary cap era began. Packers and Steelers had faded away in the 80s but there was a resurgence in the late 90s and 21st century. Tom Brady, The Mannings and Mahomes happened primarily to keep the others from winning.  

[Yoshinator]

8 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

In all honesty if someone had a list of:

 

1. Tom Brady 

2. Joe Montana 

3. Pat Mahomes 

4. Peyton Manning 

-I can see why, so no bigge. Having said that Joe Montana won 4 SBs, won 1 on a last minute drive, won 3 SB MVPs, and won 2 League MVPs. For the media or any fan that thinks Mahomes should leapfrog Joe needs heavy explaining to do there. He has nothing on Joe.

I'll say this, if Mahomes hypothetically wins the SB next year and the Chiefs 3 peat, I would put Mahomes above Montana. Cause at that point Mahomes would have tied Montana in SB wins, made an extra SB, and had an elite playoff record (he's 15-3 in the playoffs now, so he'd probably be 18-3 in that scenario). He already has 3 SB MVPs, so depending on if he won it again, that'd be 4.

 

This is not mentioning that I still believe Joe Montana is somewhat a game manager (although a clutch one). However, Mahomes has proven to be just as clutch in his career, and he puts up elite stats that are more like Brady and Manning rather than Joe Montana. 

 

As of now though, Joe was so clutch in the playoffs and he won 4 of 4 SBs (whereas Mahomes is 3 of 4 right now), that Mahomes has to win another SB to be in the discussion to pass Joe Montana. 

 

 

[Dingus McGirt]

8 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

In all honesty if someone had a list of:

 

1. Tom Brady 

2. Joe Montana 

3. Pat Mahomes 

4. Peyton Manning 

-I can see why, so no bigge. Having said that Joe Montana won 4 SBs, won 1 on a last minute drive, won 3 SB MVPs, and won 2 League MVPs. For the media or any fan that thinks Mahomes should leapfrog Joe needs heavy explaining to do there. He has nothing on Joe.

It's simply recency bias, IMO.

[chad72]

8 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

It's simply recency bias, IMO.

 

Yep. Montana threw 11 TDs and 0 INTs in all his 4 SB appearances to go 4-0, despite Ds being able to gang up on him and given the leeway to contact WRs far more than now. If that stat is not incredible, I don't know what it is. It is just hard to fathom.

 

Montana was Brady before Brady, knowing how to take care of the ball come playoff time. Only Brady deserves to be ahead of him.

[IinD]

I just thought this was funny.

[Solid84]

2 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

Yep. Montana threw 11 TDs and 0 INTs in all his 4 SB appearances to go 4-0, despite Ds being able to gang up on him and given the leeway to contact WRs far more than now. If that stat is not incredible, I don't know what it is. It is just hard to fathom.

 

Montana was Brady before Brady, knowing how to take care of the ball come playoff time. Only Brady deserves to be ahead of him.

Montana is my number 1 because of the era he played in... and the Patriot's cheating... I'm not ever going to let that go.