Total rebuild narrative

[TimetobringDfence!]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Braden Smith played in 16 games last year and has rarely missed a start in his 5 year career. 

He has had an injury history, and definately declined in play maybe I thought he has missed more games than he has but he definately is playing to level of his contract. Regardless we have to start a rebuilding of the oline. In my opinion the whole right side C G T can be built cheaper and better over the next few seasons.

[TimetobringDfence!]

43 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

This comment leads me to believe you make little sense.   

So maybe they are more available than I perceived but Kelly flat out sucks and Smith isn't playing up to the level of the contract. We would be better off bring in new pieces than resigning these players down the road.

[crazycolt1]

2 minutes ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

So maybe they are more available than I perceived but Kelly flat out sucks and Smith isn't playing up to the level of the contract. We would be better off bring in new pieces than resigning these players down the road.

Easier said than done.  Finding top quality offensive linemen is a problem for every GM. 

[Nickster]

6 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Easier said than done.  Finding top quality offensive linemen is a problem for every GM. 

 

That is true but it shouldn't be too hard to find a C that plays up to a 55 pff level in 21 which is not starter material, and 64 in 22 which is marginal starter material at a salary of 12 mill a year which is elite.

 

Kelly has not been a very good football player for at least 2 years but gets paid like and All Pro.

That is not good for the Colts organization. 

[crazycolt1]

24 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

That is true but it shouldn't be too hard to find a C that plays up to a 55 pff level in 21 which is not starter material, and 64 in 22 which is marginal starter material at a salary of 12 mill a year which is elite.

 

Kelly has not been a very good football player for at least 2 years but gets paid like and All Pro.

That is not good for the Colts organization. 

It is that hard to find quality Oline men. 

[Nickster]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

It is that hard to find quality Oline men. 

Well man 23 teams have Cs that had a better Pff score than Kelly last year, and 28 had a better pff C the year before.

 

I don't think PFF is everything, but it is at least an indicator of trends.

I disagree that it his that hard to find a center at 64 pff for 12 million.

[Jackie Daytona]

28 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

That is true but it shouldn't be too hard to find a C that plays up to a 55 pff level in 21 which is not starter material, and 64 in 22 which is marginal starter material at a salary of 12 mill a year which is elite.

 

Kelly has not been a very good football player for at least 2 years but gets paid like and All Pro.

That is not good for the Colts organization. 

Other than injuries, I give Kelly a pass for about 50% of the bad play the last two seasons.....  so I probably only expected 75% of Kellys total potential..... That said, we got closer to 50%

[Nickster]

Just now, Jackie Daytona said:

Other than injuries, I give Kelly a pass for about 50% of the bad play the last two seasons.....  so I probably only expected 75% of Kellys total potential..... That said, we got closer to 50%

 

I agree but I think the accumulated injuries are a major part of the equation don't you?

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

Well man 23 teams have Cs that had a better Pff score than Kelly last year, and 28 had a better pff C the year before.

 

I don't think PFF is everything, but it is at least an indicator of trends.

I disagree that it his that hard to find a center at 64 pff for 12 million.

Are you taking into account the injury factor when you make your claims?

[Nickster]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

Are you taking into account the injury factor when you make your claims?

 

Yes definitely man.  Absolutely.  He seems pretty washed. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Jackie Daytona said:

Other than injuries, I give Kelly a pass for about 50% of the bad play the last two seasons.....  so I probably only expected 75% of Kellys total potential..... That said, we got closer to 50%

Part of Kelly's bad play was due to him losing his baby. You never get over something like that (just awful) but hopefully he has a clearer mind coming into 2023. This is a huge year coming up for Kelly to see if he can play at a good level again.

[Nickster]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Part of Kelly's bad play was due to him losing his baby. You never get over something like that (just awful) but hopefully he has a clearer mind coming into 2023. This is a huge year coming up for Kelly to see if he can play at a good level again.

 

Maybe man, but the reality is that he wasn't playing that well before the tragedy and regardless of why the man is playing less than average level football, it's bad for the Colts to have a replacement level player being paid like a top, elite, All PRO player. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

 

Maybe man, but the reality is that he wasn't playing that well before the tragedy and regardless of why the man is playing less than average level football, it's bad for the Colts to have a replacement level player being paid like a top, elite, All PRO player. 

I think it is a make or break year for him, He may not have it anymore. Then again he might play well. Only time will tell.

[Nickster]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think it is a make or break year for him, He may not have it anymore. Then again he might play well. Only time will tell.

 

yup

[TimetobringDfence!]

59 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Easier said than done.  Finding top quality offensive linemen is a problem for every GM. 

Draft a center and a Tackle to start next year's draft is all I'm saying. We failed Luck with no protection can't repeat that with AR5.

[crazycolt1]

24 minutes ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

Draft a center and a Tackle to start next year's draft is all I'm saying. We failed Luck with no protection can't repeat that with AR5.

Luck didn’t protect himself.  What made Luck fun to watch is what led to his early retirement. 

[PeterBowman]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

Luck didn’t protect himself.  What made Luck fun to watch is what led to his early retirement. 

This......yes his O line sucked but Luck did himself no favors with his style of play.

[Superman]

41 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Maybe man, but the reality is that he wasn't playing that well before the tragedy and regardless of why the man is playing less than average level football, it's bad for the Colts to have a replacement level player being paid like a top, elite, All PRO player. 

 

If we were actually doing a rebuild, Kelly and Moore would have been gone for sure. And depending on how hard they wanted to go, even some better performing players like Buckner and Franklin might have been made available for trade.

 

They didn't see a need to tear down the roster, which is fine. But they're obviously evaluating a ton of young players, including the QB, so it would be a mistake to spend a bunch of resources in other areas. IMO, we shouldn't be doing anything too drastic until we have a good idea what Richardson is/can be. Because if he's a disaster in 2023, I'm all for selling the farm for Caleb Williams. And if Richardson is really promising in 2023, I'm okay with giving up resources to get a really good WR, or pass rusher, or DB. But we need to know which way we're headed before we start spending.

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

Kelly had an elbow injury for many games. And Smith has missed a lot in prior seasons. You can tell with each player that injuries of directly affected there ability to play.

First off, that's not what you said originally.   Second,  no you can't tell.   You're not in the training room or locker room with them.   

[Nickster]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

If we were actually doing a rebuild, Kelly and Moore would have been gone for sure. And depending on how hard they wanted to go, even some better performing players like Buckner and Franklin might have been made available for trade.

 

They didn't see a need to tear down the roster, which is fine. But they're obviously evaluating a ton of young players, including the QB, so it would be a mistake to spend a bunch of resources in other areas. IMO, we shouldn't be doing anything too drastic until we have a good idea what Richardson is/can be. Because if he's a disaster in 2023, I'm all for selling the farm for Caleb Williams. And if Richardson is really promising in 2023, I'm okay with giving up resources to get a really good WR, or pass rusher, or DB. But we need to know which way we're headed before we start spending.

 

Yeah I'm coming around to the possibility that the reason to start AR right away is to make a quick decision on whether or not he's the future.   I hope they cut ties quick if it becomes obvious that he's likely not to be a legit NFL type starter.   

 

One issue that might contaminate the experiment is this offensive line.   Kelly is interesting.  He's really not been very good.  Then we have the RG.  We are hoping Raimann works out.  We need Nelson to earn most of his salary.

[throwing BBZ]

6 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Luck didn’t protect himself.  What made Luck fun to watch is what led to his early retirement. 

 

 I remember posting that Luck "stood in there like Superman"! The real one not the joker that posts here.  

 Luck held the ball with two hands guys blowing past Satele, McGlynn, and sometimes a sorry LG not practice squad worthy.  

 Anyway, they would beat our guys so quite they had heads of steam that they had never experienced before and would race at Lucky with an arm extended,, and at just the right moment Lucky would take a powerful step forward and break tackle after tackle.

 It gave TY time to go deep and that was Lucky's happy place.

And of course he also ran sometimes gaining unbelievable needed yardage, like on 3rd and 21, and getting the first down.

 This was great to watch, not so much the hundreds of times he held onto the ball waiting for someone to break their route (because he never learned to anticipate the planned break) but unfortunately the rush got to him and splattered his * to the ground.  

And so one day he said, "I wanna go home now".

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

29 minutes ago, PeterBowman said:

This......yes his O line sucked but Luck did himself no favors with his style of play.

Luck really didn't have a choice. He was playing the way he was playing (reckless at times) because that gave the team the best chance to win. He had ZERO running game during his 1st 3 seasons and that isn't an understatement. Only 1 time a back went over 100 Yards in the 48 games played from 2012-2014. Our philosophy was, Andrew throw it, Andrew run it if that helps the team win. He ran because he had too. Our coaches were like, if the defense can keep the game close, Andrew will pull out the win. He usually did, except our team wasn't good enough against the elite teams like the Pats and Steelers. Their QB's were great.

 

I always think of what if's and a big one is, what if Andrew Luck would have had Lynch at RB coming out of college and Russell Wilson would have had our RB's? Those 2 careers probably would have been vastly different. 

[throwing BBZ]

41 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

If we were actually doing a rebuild, Kelly and Moore would have been gone for sure. And depending on how hard they wanted to go, even some better performing players like Buckner and Franklin might have been made available for trade.

 

They didn't see a need to tear down the roster, which is fine. But they're obviously evaluating a ton of young players, including the QB, so it would be a mistake to spend a bunch of resources in other areas. IMO, we shouldn't be doing anything too drastic until we have a good idea what Richardson is/can be. Because if he's a disaster in 2023, I'm all for selling the farm for Caleb Williams. And if Richardson is really promising in 2023, I'm okay with giving up resources to get a really good WR, or pass rusher, or DB. But we need to know which way we're headed before we start spending.

 

 Kelly has been nicked up for a couple years, particularly with the left arm injury. So Nickster "knows all" and grades him for 2023 as below average. How astute. This perpetual Bunk is why Ignore him works for me.

 

 

11. Ryan Kelly, Indianapolis Colts

This might seem low for a player who has made three consecutive Pro Bowls, but Kelly’s PFF grading profile hasn’t quite lived up to those accolades. His 56.9 PFF grade in 2021 was the lowest of his career, but it was preceded by a 74.7 overall grade from 2018 to 2020, 10th among qualifying centers. That’s about where he should end up again in 2023 — a talented, above-average starter who hasn’t produced consistently enough to push the elite tier at the position. He fought through almost 1100 snaps last season.

 His experience, the value of continuity, and the $4.6M gap in dead cap makes him managements choice for another season.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, throwing BBZ said:

 I remember posting that Luck "stood in there like Superman"! The real one not the joker that posts here.  

 

I'm definitely a 'throw it away' kind of guy...

[Superman]

1 hour ago, throwing BBZ said:

 Kelly has been nicked up for a couple years, particularly with the left arm injury. So Nickster "knows all" and grades him for 2023 as below average. How astute. This perpetual Bunk is why Ignore him works for me.

 

He's underperformed two years in a row, and he's getting $10m this year, at 30 years old. Can he get back to his previous form? It's worth watching, and I think he has to to justify his contract. 

 

But my point is more that if the front office were actually in "rebuild mode," Kelly wouldn't still be on the team. Not at $10m in 2023. That they kept him, and Moore, and others, signals what the staff has in mind.

[Nickster]

11 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm definitely a 'throw it away' kind of guy...

 

Yep.  I was a young guy who had put his body through quite a bit of reckless activity when Manning came into the league in 1998, and used to think it was unmanly for Manning to curl up in the fetal position like he did, but that evolved lol as I started feeling the damage lol. 

 

It's dumb to take those hits.  It's not good for the team and kind of selfish from a certain perspective. 

[TimetobringDfence!]

8 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Luck didn’t protect himself.  What made Luck fun to watch is what led to his early retirement. 

Luck was the most sacked QB his first few seasons. We had a horrible oline before Ballard came in. I agree some of Lucks injuries were his style but. He got killed in the pocket a lot.

[KB]

4 hours ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

Luck was the most sacked QB his first few seasons. We had a horrible oline before Ballard came in. I agree some of Lucks injuries were his style but. He got killed in the pocket a lot.

You telling me Samson Setelle and Hugh Thorton arnt going to make it to the Colts ring of honor?

[Nickster]

On 8/18/2023 at 12:14 PM, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Kelly has been nicked up for a couple years, particularly with the left arm injury. So Nickster "knows all" and grades him for 2023 as below average. How astute. This perpetual Bunk is why Ignore him works for me.

 

 

11. Ryan Kelly, Indianapolis Colts

This might seem low for a player who has made three consecutive Pro Bowls, but Kelly’s PFF grading profile hasn’t quite lived up to those accolades. His 56.9 PFF grade in 2021 was the lowest of his career, but it was preceded by a 74.7 overall grade from 2018 to 2020, 10th among qualifying centers. That’s about where he should end up again in 2023 — a talented, above-average starter who hasn’t produced consistently enough to push the elite tier at the position. He fought through almost 1100 snaps last season.

 His experience, the value of continuity, and the $4.6M gap in dead cap makes him managements choice for another season.

Nice ad hominem.

[AwesomeAustin]

On 8/18/2023 at 12:54 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Luck really didn't have a choice. He was playing the way he was playing (reckless at times) because that gave the team the best chance to win. He had ZERO running game during his 1st 3 seasons and that isn't an understatement. Only 1 time a back went over 100 Yards in the 48 games played from 2012-2014. Our philosophy was, Andrew throw it, Andrew run it if that helps the team win. He ran because he had too. Our coaches were like, if the defense can keep the game close, Andrew will pull out the win. He usually did, except our team wasn't good enough against the elite teams like the Pats and Steelers. Their QB's were great.

 

I always think of what if's and a big one is, what if Andrew Luck would have had Lynch at RB coming out of college and Russell Wilson would have had our RB's? Those 2 careers probably would have been vastly different. 

Didn’t Vick Ballard rush for 800yds in 10-12 starts Lucks rookie year?  That obviously isn’t elite but it very productive. Still, I get what you are saying. 

[IinD]

On 8/19/2023 at 1:08 AM, KB said:

Samson Setelle and Hugh Thorton

[NewColtsFan]

On 8/18/2023 at 10:14 AM, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Kelly has been nicked up for a couple years, particularly with the left arm injury. So Nickster "knows all" and grades him for 2023 as below average. How astute. This perpetual Bunk is why Ignore him works for me.

 

 

11. Ryan Kelly, Indianapolis Colts

This might seem low for a player who has made three consecutive Pro Bowls, but Kelly’s PFF grading profile hasn’t quite lived up to those accolades. His 56.9 PFF grade in 2021 was the lowest of his career, but it was preceded by a 74.7 overall grade from 2018 to 2020, 10th among qualifying centers. That’s about where he should end up again in 2023 — a talented, above-average starter who hasn’t produced consistently enough to push the elite tier at the position. He fought through almost 1100 snaps last season.

 His experience, the value of continuity, and the $4.6M gap in dead cap makes him managements choice for another season.

You and I like Kelly more than most and recognize his problems have not been entirely his own making.   Injuries, poor teammates.   
 

But for those who don’t like Kelly this is your year.   Kelly needs to step up.  Period. He needs to stay healthy and play better.   If not, he’ll be cut/traded.   Even if he does play better and wants to stay he’d likely have to restructure for a more appropriate and manageable cap number.   If not, he’d be cut, and the Colts would likely sign a mid-level free agent in 24 to replace him.  Someone who might get a contract of about 3/20-25 to be above average to good, but not great.   Top-16-ish. 
 

So 2023, is a big year for Kelly and his future.   We will all know much more in roughly 6-8 months.  

[cdgacoltsfan]

You only need to look at last year's Giants. The Colts have more talent across the board. The naysayers will be eating crow.

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 minutes ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

You only need to look at last year's Giants. The Colts have more talent across the board. The naysayers will be eating crow.

Great comparison because to me Daniel Jones is just an average QB and across the board we have just as much talent as they do. If AR is even above average, we could surprise a lot of people. JT is the question mark, he and Barkley offset one another regarding those 2 teams.

[Rhodelesstraveled]

This is a 4 or 5 win team with JT.  And he is the best player on the team by a longshot.    

[Jackie Daytona]

4 hours ago, Rhodelesstraveled said:

This is a 4 or 5 win team with JT.  And he is the best player on the team by a longshot.    

I keep seeing this.... But we were very nearly a 6-7 win team with all the crap last year....I think people are forgetting just how dysfunctional this team was all year.... AR will have mistakes.....and growing pains ....and very well could have a better TD/TO ratio than our QBs last year by a decent margin

[jvan1973]

4 hours ago, Rhodelesstraveled said:

This is a 4 or 5 win team with JT.  And he is the best player on the team by a longshot.    

He is the best playmaker.  He isn't the best player.   DeForest Bukner is the best player.   This team is better with JT than without,  but this entire thing is his doing.  

[Rhodelesstraveled]

Buckner is a huge dissappointment to me.  JT is still tops.  

[shasta519]

On 8/23/2023 at 7:29 PM, Jackie Daytona said:

I keep seeing this.... But we were very nearly a 6-7 win team with all the crap last year....I think people are forgetting just how dysfunctional this team was all year.... AR will have mistakes.....and growing pains ....and very well could have a better TD/TO ratio than our QBs last year by a decent margin

 

They had a few they could have won and a few they should have lost. Their estimated win total was <4 last year. They were a really bad team.