After a 3 Point loss and Two OT Losses - Which way is the team trending?

[Smonroe]

Not saying we're good.  It's safe to say that we can't finish, at least right now.

 

And I'm just saying it's not a bad team.  Certainly competitive.

 

We can blame it on injuries, but that's part of the NFL and every team's success is gauged by how they handle adversity.

 

About at the halfway point of the season, which way would you say the team in trending?

[MPStack]

Can’t beat the the upper echelon teams, and win against non playoff teams. 
 

Equates to a .500 team IMO. 

[Mr.Debonair]

 

Even or somewhere in the middle. 

[DougDew]

8 minutes ago, MPStack said:

Can’t beat the the upper echelon teams, and win against non playoff teams. 
 

Equates to a .500 team IMO. 

Outside of a few early years with Grigson and a healthy Luck, its been that way since about when Manning left.

 

Funny thing, when we have a very good QB on the field, we compete with playoff teams.  When we have an unhealthy QB, a bad one, or one that's losing his mind, we don't compete. 

 

Not sure why there is always so much analysis about the other stuff.

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

down trend, too many draft busts for a build through the draft gm. gms refusal to pay top talent at skill positions, gms draft busts at de and wr, down trend!!!!!!!!!

[MPStack]

9 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Outside of a few early years with Grigson and a healthy Luck, its been that way since about when Manning left.

 

Funny thing, when we have a very good QB on the field, we compete with playoff teams.  When we have an unhealthy QB, a bad one, or one that's losing his mind, we don't compete. 

 

Not sure why there is always so much analysis about the other stuff.

Which boils down to coaching and not enough talent on the roster or at key positions. 
 

 

[colts89]

The Colts are slightly above average I feel. If the DEs drafted this year become legit pass rushers, then we should be able to do a few things to improve the secondary/linebackers next year to become a real threat.

 

I feel that the offense under Wentz should only get better with time. They will need a reliable receiving weapon added to complement Pittman though. JMO

[DougDew]

6 minutes ago, MPStack said:

Which boils down to coaching and not enough talent on the roster or at key positions. 
 

 

I think its pretty clear that the coaching and talent both look better when the QB is very good.

 

We haven't had enough talent at key positions since Reggie, Mathis, and Vontae left.

[WoolMagnet]

It appears to be the same team different QB.  A team capable of playing well, bit struggles to maintain consistency and close. I think the team has lost some confidence as well.

  I am interested how we play the next couple weeks.  Realistically, i think we should win both by multiple scores if we play, coach, etc the way we “should” aginst those teams.  If we dont control both games handily(ie by 10+ Points),  then we will lnow this team has no spine.

    After the way we lost last game, i dont know how you can see an upward trend.  And the next teo weeks could be a fools gold tease.

[Indyfan4life]

Look at Green Bay for example. They were down how many starters and their defensive coordinator, and they STILL BEAT Arizona. 
 

Rodgers just tested positive for Covid, so there’s a free win for the Chiefs too. 
 

Point is, good teams find ways to win. Regardless of the situation. We don’t. 

[Smonroe]

I'm not as down on the O side of the ball as far as coaching.  Let's face it, a hurt kicker lost us the Baltimore game.  A dumb play by Wentz lost the Titans game.  The team played well enough to win both of those games.

 

On the other side, I know we've had injuries, but I've never had much faith in the Flus D.  I've said it before, that D is based on hope, not aggressiveness.  Hope we get a turnover, hope their QB misses on a pass, hope when the field shortens our zone will suffice, etc..

[MPStack]

8 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

I'm not as down on the O side of the ball as far as coaching.  Let's face it, a hurt kicker lost us the Baltimore game.  A dumb play by Wentz lost the Titans game.  The team played well enough to win both of those games.

 

On the other side, I know we've had injuries, but I've never had much faith in the Flus D.  I've said it before, that D is based on hope, not aggressiveness.  Hope we get a turnover, hope their QB misses on a pass, hope when the field shortens our zone will suffice, etc..

The Colts pass is getting worse it seems every year. 

[Smonroe]

2 minutes ago, MPStack said:

The Colts pass is getting worse it seems every year. 

 

I assume you mean pass rush (although it could be true the other way too, lol).

 

I agree.  Can it really be that Ballard can't find an edge guy, or is it coaching?  A lot of teams seem to get to the QB rushing 4, at least a lot better than we do.

[Thunderbolt]

Yes, coaching is one of them.  The other is the GM, need to draft better, make some timely trades, better scouts, etc...

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

I think its pretty clear that the coaching and talent both look better when the QB is very good.

 

We haven't had enough talent at key positions since Reggie, Mathis, and Vontae left.

 

Yeah, I was going to add that to what you said earlier in the thread.  QB yes yes and yes. 

 

But 3rd down defensive talent and pass catchers can help a team rise out of the doldrums of mediocrity too. 

[CoachLite]

We are heading to the doldrums.

[Coltsfan98]

Trending? I'd say we are trending like a truck stuck in the mud right now. Hopefully wins over the next few weeks have pulled us out of the mud a little and back on firmer ground. 

[DougDew]

7 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Yeah, I was going to add that to what you said earlier in the thread.  QB yes yes and yes. 

 

But 3rd down defensive talent and pass catchers can help a team rise out of the doldrums of mediocrity too. 

In the big picture, we've changed schemes from a 34 to a 43 and still have the same problems of pass rush, covering the middle, and getting beat by the other team's best WR. 

 

The difference is that we no longer have Mathis and Vontae.  And our QBs still looks at one receiver.  Its clear.  All of the other analysis is just garbage and sounding board stuff. 

[Defjamz26]

We’re trending down. It seems to be that the Colts can not beat elite teams except for the occasional upset. And given the young players that haven’t panned out, this team is looking like it’ll be in reset mode. We’re already playing a bunch of young players, but those guys are likely to be replaced by even younger guys so where does that leave us?

[Nickster]

30 minutes ago, DougDew said:

In the big picture, we've changed schemes from a 34 to a 43 and still have the same problems of pass rush, covering the middle, and getting beat by the other team's best WR. 

 

The difference is that we no longer have Mathis and Vontae.  And our QBs still looks at one receiver.  Its clear.  All of the other analysis is just garbage and sounding board stuff. 

Pretty much agree.  Main thing it seems I disagree with you about Colts FB is that I think Grigson was awful and his failure is still hurting this team.  And from what I glean, you are a Grigs supporter.  I don't give a flying fart if he's arrogant BTW.  Just want to win.  You kinda opened up my eyes to the necessity of Ballard drafting Q in needing to keep Luck clean up the middle and not necessarily drafting out of philosophy.  I'd never contemplated that and hadn't heard it discussed anywhere.  Did you formulate that on your own or had you heard something?

 

Adequate guards and centers are among the easiest positions to fill and Grigs was awful at it.  Luck was amazing in the face of all that pressure right up the gut IMO. 

 

We have  a line with #1 draft picks at center and guard and drafted another guard with the 2nd pick.  He ended up playing RT out of necessity and has turned out to be a stud, but that is a lot of draft capital and is a primary reason why we don't have adequate 3rd down talent on offense or defense IMO.

[gspdx]

Trending - just comparing to the record at this point last year we are trending down.  5-3 vs 3-5.

 

The team has been competitive in most games but finds a way to shoot themselves in the foot.  They can't close out games, whether it is due to coaching, game management, or just lack of making plays when they are needed.

 

Overall it seems like a team is trending downward.  We all know that can change very quickly and I would love to see that, but I can't say I am very confident we will see a significant upswing this year.  It does seem like many of Ballard's guys just aren't stepping up to the next level. I wouldn't have said that in the first few games this year with all of the chaos and unknowns that this team was dealing with over the summer and the start of the season. 

 

 

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Pretty much agree.  Main thing it seems I disagree with you about Colts FB is that I think Grigson was awful and his failure is still hurting this team.  And from what I glean, you are a Grigs supporter.  I don't give a flying fart if he's arrogant BTW.  Just want to win.  You kinda opened up my eyes to the necessity of Ballard drafting Q in needing to keep Luck clean up the middle and not necessarily drafting out of philosophy.  I'd never contemplated that and hadn't heard it discussed anywhere.  Did you formulate that on your own or had you heard something?

 

Adequate guards and centers are among the easiest positions to fill and Grigs was awful at it.  Luck was amazing in the face of all that pressure right up the gut IMO. 

 

We have  a line with #1 draft picks at center and guard and drafted another guard with the 2nd pick.  He ended up playing RT out of necessity and has turned out to be a stud, but that is a lot of draft capital and is a primary reason why we don't have adequate  or 3rd down talent on offense or defense IMO.

I'm not a Grigs supporter.  I got pegged that because I did not join in on the feeding frenzy piling on nonsense (like what is starting with Frank).  I looked at decisions individually.  There was a bunch of stupid stuff said about getting Luck killed and failing to protect him that didn't look at Luck's own on-the-field faults as part of the root cause.  Now people are more willing to see Luck's own contribution to the high number of hits he took after he retired and the Love for him waned a bit.  I could go on but that's old news.

 

IMO, Ballard has drafted for need, just like most GMs do.   This stuff about him "building the trenches" and "up the middle" is nonsense.  He's tried just has hard to address Corner, edge (maybe not WR like we'd like) the same way Grigs tried to address the oline.  Non first round draft picks that failed.

 

You don't fire a GM over a few draft picks, because the likelihood that you're going to get better results from the draft from the next GM is low.  Its speculative.  If the guy is a jerk who cant manage people, fine.  If he's a good guy, you hope that he learns from his mistakes.

 

Same with Frank.  First time HC.  If he's got the character and personality and management skills you keep him.  You don't fire him because you don't like 10% of the plays he calls.  You hope he learns.  How is the next first time HC guy going to be better?  I supported Pagano firing because I wanted an offensive minded coach and not defensive.  I wanted Luck to learn a new O and to stop running the deep down the field crap that got him killed.  Don't want that for Wentz either.  More Rivers, less Luck.  Frank dink and dunk ball control > Chud chunk play top 5 passing game crap.

 

I think Frank is still that good offensive mind but I do think something is holding him back.  Either he gets frozen when the script runs out or he lacks confidence in the personnel to really get comfortable.  Heck, its been a revolving door of marginal talent since he got here, so the latter probably has a lot to do with it.  

 

[DougDew]

As far as trends.  Our QB retired., LT retired, and Ballard made it a point to go with the young DEs to see what we have.  A set back year was baked into the circumstances.  I assume that Irsay, Ballard, and Frank all understand what the deal is.

[Nickster]

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I'm not a Grigs supporter.  I got pegged that because I did not join in on the feeding frenzy piling on nonsense (like what is starting with Frank).  I looked at decisions individually.  There was a bunch of stupid stuff said about getting Luck killed and failing to protect him that didn't look at Luck's own on-the-field faults as part of the root cause.  Now people are more willing to see Luck's own contribution to the high number of hits he took after he retired and the Love for him waned a bit.  I could go on but that's old news.

 

IMO, Ballard has drafted for need, just like most GMs do.   This stuff about him "building the trenches" and "up the middle" is nonsense.  He's tried just has hard to address Corner, edge (maybe not WR like we'd like) the same way Grigs tried to address the oline.  Non first round draft picks that failed.

 

You don't fire a GM over a few draft picks, because the likelihood that you're going to get better results from the draft from the next GM is low.  Its speculative.  If the guy is a jerk who cant manage people, fine.  If he's a good guy, you hope that he learns from his mistakes.

 

Same with Frank.  First time HC.  If he's got the character and personality and management skills you keep him.  You don't fire him because you don't like 10% of the plays he calls.  You hope he learns.  How is the next first time HC guy going to be better?  I supported Pagano firing because I wanted an offensive minded coach and not defensive.  I wanted Luck to learn a new O and to stop running the deep down the field crap that got him killed.  Don't want that for Wentz either.  More Rivers, less Luck.  Frank dink and dunk ball control > Chud chunk play top 5 passing game crap.

 

I think Frank is still that good offensive mind but I do think something is holding him back.  Either he gets frozen when the script runs out or he lacks confidence in the personnel to really get comfortable.  Heck, its been a revolving door of marginal talent since he got here, so the latter probably has a lot to do with it.  

 

 

That makes sense.   I don't really care about people skills as a supporter of a FB team.  Belechik has few but he won.  

 

Frank has trouble seeing what's out there IMO.  I don't know.   His gameplanning is usually top notch IMO. 

 

I personally think most Colts issues are personnel related.  High drafts on less impactful positions and I see you think that we have a lot of unidimensional players.  

JT is not Edgerrin James, and I think many on here think he is.   I'm not saying he's not going to be a better producer in the long run in the stats category, but James was about as complete a 3 down back as there ever was.  Excellent runner, excellent route runner, excellent hands, excellent pass protector.  JT has way more explosion than EJ and is way faster, but JT has limitations. JT is also not a a very creative back, so if the blocking and the scheme don't start the explosion, most of his plays will fizzle.  I was however very encouraged by the cut backs and patience he showed Sunday in Q1.  That being said I don't think he moves the needle much.  I'd rather have Eli Mitchell for instance or James RObinson with being a 6th rounder and a UDFA respectively rather than being a team with millions tied up in a 3rd down back and a high pick used for JT.  We had too many areas of need to put that kind of capital into RBs. Individual RBs in general don't move the needle.  Not even The Tennessee Stud.  They did nothing until they got Tannehill and Brown. 

 

 The closest thing we have to a rounded player is Buckner, but his pass rush has been nothing to get over excited about at the same time. 

 

I think we are going to be banished to the Hell of perpetual mediocrity for some time.  Wentz looks to me like a not as good Brett Favre.  Good.  But too much risk for not enough reward.  He has shown signs of brilliance though.

 

Oh well, I will continue to watch, and have fun discussing it on this very sensitive message board. 

[JediXMan]

Colts are a mid tier team.

 

 

[Nickster]

15 minutes ago, DougDew said:

As far as trends.  Our QB retired., LT retired, and Ballard made it a point to go with the young DEs to see what we have.  A set back year was baked into the circumstances.  I assume that Irsay, Ballard, and Frank all understand what the deal is.

I totally said that before the season.  You don't hire an Achilles LT and draft an injured DE if you are trying to win immediately.  Not a bad strategy under the circumstances IMO.

 

Sometimes I seem to think maybe it will work, but then I just feel there are too many misfit toys and puzzle pieces that don't really go together on this squad.

[Nickster]

Oh and just to touch on Luck I think it was a perfect storm.  Hero ball type of guy.  Terrible interior line.  And a downfield passing scheme that relied on long developing plays.

 

Recipe to make a dude want to retire. 

[1959Colts]

down

[Nickster]

5 minutes ago, 1959Colts said:

down

Is that Art Donavon?  Man that dude was funny.  Remember that he had this huge, easy personality and was so old school and funny.

[DougDew]

15 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

That makes sense.   I don't really care about people skills as a supporter of a FB team.  Belechik has few but he won.  

 

Frank has trouble seeing what's out there IMO.  I don't know.   His gameplanning is usually top notch IMO. 

 

I personally think most Colts issues are personnel related.  High drafts on less impactful positions and I see you think that we have a lot of unidimensional players.  

JT is not Edgerrin James, and I think many on here think he is.   I'm not saying he's not going to be a better producer in the long run in the stats category, but James was about as complete a 3 down back as there ever was.  Excellent runner, excellent route runner, excellent hands, excellent pass protector.  JT has way more explosion than EJ and is way faster, but JT has limitations. JT is also not a a very creative back, so if the blocking and the scheme don't start the explosion, most of his plays will fizzle.  I was however very encouraged by the cut backs and patience he showed Sunday in Q1.  That being said I don't think he moves the needle much.  I'd rather have Eli Mitchell for instance or James RObinson with being a 6th rounder and a UDFA respectively rather than being a team with millions tied up in a 3rd down back and a high pick used for JT.  We had too many areas of need to put that kind of capital into RBs. Individual RBs in general don't move the needle.  Not even The Tennessee Stud.  They did nothing until they got Tannehill and Brown. 

 

 The closest thing we have to a rounded player is Buckner, but his pass rush has been nothing to get over excited about at the same time. 

 

I think we are going to be banished to the Hell of perpetual mediocrity for some time.  Wentz looks to me like a not as good Brett Favre.  Good.  But too much risk for not enough reward.  He has shown signs of brilliance though.

 

Oh well, I will continue to watch, and have fun discussing it on this very sensitive message board. 

Yeah.  I watch the Colts for fun.  Not validation.   I expect we will lose most of our games this year, and looking at the big picture, it wasn't really destined for much else.  Fisher would have to do very well.  A skill position player would have to step up, more than one.  Paye would have to make a splash.  All could happen.  I don't expect it.  Still fun to watch and hope they win out.

 

Agree with you about JT, the positive things.  Showed that he could find a hole that wasn't supposed to be there instead of just running where the play was supposed to have it blocked.  One thing Edge did not have was home run speed.  He did great things but he couldn't ever break off many long runs.  JT has that, and that's special, and that's why you take him with pick 41.  I remember Polian saying the same thing about Dammit Donald, that given the opportunity, he can score from any part of the field.  Edge couldn't really do that.

 

Pittman is encouraging.

 

The O looks like it has a future.

 

The D roster is still a mess.  Ballard's churn from a 34 to a 43 hasn't come very far. 

 

 

[Smonroe]

29 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Oh and just to touch on Luck I think it was a perfect storm.  Hero ball type of guy.  Terrible interior line.  And a downfield passing scheme that relied on long developing plays.

 

Recipe to make a dude want to retire. 

 

Not to derail my own thread, but I said that from day 1 when Grigs drafted Coby #2.  I figured he'd have enough sense to surround a once in a generation player with the best protection he could get.

 

And Arians did him no favors with that empty backfield set they used to run.  Luck got creamed half the time.

 

Okay, enough for those memories.  I think Ballard is a good GM (remains to be seen though).  But he's invested a lot of money in some less than important positions.  I get rewarding guys, but now with the cap, we pretty much have to win with what we have.  Not working out so good right now.

[Four2itus]

Up. 

[Nickster]

4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yeah.  I watch the Colts for fun.  Not validation.   I expect we will lose most of our games this year, and looking at the big picture, it wasn't really destined for much else.  Fisher would have to do very well.  A skill position player would have to step up, more than one.  Paye would have to make a splash.  All could happen.  I don't expect it.  Still fun to watch and hope they win out.

 

Agree with you about JT, the positive things.  Showed that he could find a hole that wasn't supposed to be there instead of just running where the play was supposed to have it blocked.  One thing Edge did not have was home run speed.  He did great things but he couldn't ever break off many long runs.  JT has that, and that's special, and that's why you take him with pick 41.  I remember Polian saying the same thing about Dammit Donald, that given the opportunity, he can score from any part of the field.  Edge couldn't really do that.

 

Pittman is encouraging.

 

The O looks like it has a future.

 

The D roster is still a mess.  Ballard's churn from a 34 to a 43 hasn't come very far. 

 

 

Not to quibble because I don't like to be argumentative. . . . . but pre injury EJ had more than enough home run speed.  He had a 4.38 40 at the combine which was actually .01 better than JT.  He was very very fast, but there is something JT has IMO that I can only characterize as burst that I don't remember EJ having, but that said EJ only played 2 seasons before his career changing injury.  EJ was on pace to be the GOAT man.  He was an unbelievable football player and was a great example for all kids especially ones from rough backgrounds. 

JT apparently is some sort of genius which is cool I guess.  Don't want my RB overanalyzing though.  

[Nickster]

1 minute ago, Four2itus said:

Up. 

 Man are you some sort of motivational speaker?  I mean we need people with your attitude in the world I guess.

 

OR do you just pull legs?  

 

No matter what, Four2itus things positive. 

[Nickster]

8 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

 

Not to derail my own thread, but I said that from day 1 when Grigs drafted Coby #2.  I figured he'd have enough sense to surround a once in a generation player with the best protection he could get.

 

And Arians did him no favors with that empty backfield set they used to run.  Luck got creamed half the time.

 

Okay, enough for those memories.  I think Ballard is a good GM (remains to be seen though).  But he's invested a lot of money in some less than important positions.  I get rewarding guys, but now with the cap, we pretty much have to win with what we have.  Not working out so good right now.

Yeah, I brought up Luck because Doug has a theory that Ballard didn't draft philosophically necessarily but because we needed interior linemen because ours was so bad. 

 

I said before this season we will know if this team has a chance to be good going forward during the 2nd half of the season because we won't have a 1st rounder let alone multiple 2nds and 3rds like we've had and won't have cap room to make splashes.  They hay is mostly in the barn so to speak.

 

Right now, doesn't look good enough to me.  But I could see a couple of things improving.  Sure felt good through 3Qs on Sunday. 

[1959Colts]

1 hour ago, Nickster said:

Is that Art Donavon?  Man that dude was funny.  Remember that he had this huge, easy personality and was so old school and funny.

 

Yes it is. Some classic tv appearances on Johnny Carson and Letterman can be found on youtube.

 

 

[WoolMagnet]

9 hours ago, Thunderbolt said:

Yes, coaching is one of them.  The other is the GM, need to draft better, make some timely trades, better scouts, etc...

I like the whole “Colts guy” and “character 1st” and “he’s a shoe guy” philosophy as a mission-level type goal or ideal.  But i question sometimes that we pigeonhole our preferred player types.   I dont mean felons or anything, but some level of “edge” would go a long way i think.  We seem to be so very focused on guys with “unique traits.”   And thats fine as long as you can find ways to use them.  I would, however, assume they would also be harder to replace due to those unique traits and uses.

   It appears at times that our scouts are more enamored by unique physical traits and being a captain on their college teams, than their actual ability as a football player or past production on the field.

 

  I reallylike the talent on this team.  But after 3 or 4 collapses this year i wonder if i was over-optimistic.  Very confusing to me.  This team has a definite bi-polar nature.  

[TimetobringDfence!]

10 hours ago, DougDew said:

As far as trends.  Our QB retired., LT retired, and Ballard made it a point to go with the young DEs to see what we have.  A set back year was baked into the circumstances.  I assume that Irsay, Ballard, and Frank all understand what the deal is.

Does that give Frank a Pass on mis utilizing our RB Room... and blowing close games we were up big...at some point you see past circumstances and see repetitive characteristics and decisions that aren't beneficial to the team and growth...morale is going down...

[cbear]

It wouldn't surprise me if we finish around under 500. Also wouldn't be a total surprise if we end up with 10-11 wins and sneak into the PO.  This team is an enigma. 

[Smonroe]

4 hours ago, cbear said:

It wouldn't surprise me if we finish around under 500. Also wouldn't be a total surprise if we end up with 10-11 wins and sneak into the PO.  This team is an enigma. 

Yep.  With the title of the thread I was basically saying the same thing.  Two ‘should have won’ (Ravens, Titans), and one could have won (Rams) games. 
 

The record easily could be 6-2 or 5-3.  So what is this team?  Good, average, bad?
 

“Enigma” is the perfect word.