Jacoby v Rivers

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, rayski said:

I think that's a very poor wr group and if TY gets injured again, might be the worst depth at wr in the league.

Without......a.......doubt

[DougDew]

32 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

What about JB going to the Steelers. Their backups are bad and he would give them insurance if Ben isn’t ready or isn’t back full strength.

Both of PITTs backups are better than JB.

[shasta519]

14 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

the team has no leverage to make him do that.  they can ask and he can just say no

 

in the nba they sometimes negotiate contract buy outs, not sure if thats a thing in the nfl 

 

Yeah...here's how that conversation would go:

 

Ballard: Hey JB...can...

 

JB: No, Chris.

[CanuckColt]

2 hours ago, KB said:

Looks to be a very underwhelming training camp battle

What battle?  Rivers is the starter and JB (with his salary) is outa town!

[John Waylon]

23 minutes ago, WifiGuy said:

Well he is not going to be a starter, so he may have no choice if he wants to be here longer than a yr.  I'm not saying for just this yr,  extend him and lower his salary to decent back up level again.  He may want traded also 

Put yourself in that spot. You walk into work tomorrow and your boss says “hey, we hired someone else to do your job. If they don’t do it well you can go back to doing it. Or if they do it well we’re going to move you into a different job. Trouble is, we need you to make less money to make that happen. Whaddaya say?”

 

You just gonna sigh right up for that?

23 minutes ago, WifiGuy said:

Well he is not going to be a starter, so he may have no choice if he wants to be here longer than a yr.  I'm not saying for just this yr,  extend him and lower his salary to decent back up level again.  He may want traded also 

Put yourself in that spot. You walk into work tomorrow and your boss says “hey, we hired someone else to do your job. If they don’t do it well you can go back to doing it. Or if they do it well we’re going to move you into a different job. Trouble is, we need you to make less money to make that happen. Whaddaya say?”

 

You just gonna sign right up for that?

[KB]

Just now, CanuckColt said:

What battle?  Rivers is the starter and JB (with his salary) is outa town!

I get that what people want, but if you listen to what Ballard has said it's most likely isnt going down like that. He wants competition at the position. Naming an automatic starter would be the opposite of that. It would not shock me at all if they battle it out in camp. I expect Rivers to win but if he has regressed even more than last year, and it shows, it would be foolish to not have a backup plan with starting experience in place. 

[shasta519]

12 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

Put yourself in that spot. You walk into work tomorrow and your boss says “hey, we hired someone else to do your job. If they don’t do it well you can go back to doing it. Or if they do it well we’re going to move you into a different job. Trouble is, we need you to make less money to make that happen. Whaddaya say?”

 

You just gonna sign right up for that?

 

Unfortunately, this happens quite often. Sometimes you even get to train that person first.

[EastStreet]

 

[EastStreet]

http://www.indianasportscoverage.com/indianapolis-colts-expected-to-sign-philip-rivers-could-trade-jacoby-brissett/

Quote

 

It’s difficult to envision Brissett being that attractive of a trade option for other teams. He displayed an inability to make big plays in an offensive system run by coaches known for their dynamic systems. In addition, that narrative has built increasingly with the Colts being linked to other options.

 

Jacoby Brissett is coming off a 2019 season that featured 2,942 passing yards, 18 touchdowns, and six interceptions in 15 appearances. He also completed just 60.9% of his 447 pass attempts and for a conservative play style, even his completion rate wasn’t enough.

 

 

[Kyle]

Trade JB back to the Patriots for a 2nd round pick

[KB]

21 minutes ago, KB said:

I get that what people want, but if you listen to what Ballard has said it's most likely isnt going down like that. He wants competition at the position. Naming an automatic starter would be the opposite of that. It would not shock me at all if they battle it out in camp. I expect Rivers to win but if he has regressed even more than last year, and it shows, it would be foolish to not have a backup plan with starting experience in place. 

 

6 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

And maybe I could be wrong lol. Hasnt been the first time and wont be the last.

[krunk]

23 minutes ago, KB said:

I get that what people want, but if you listen to what Ballard has said it's most likely isnt going down like that. He wants competition at the position. Naming an automatic starter would be the opposite of that. It would not shock me at all if they battle it out in camp. I expect Rivers to win but if he has regressed even more than last year, and it shows, it would be foolish to not have a backup plan with starting experience in place. 

Doesn't work that way at QB.  Teams always want to name their starting QB as soon as possible.  If you are not sure who your QB is then the old NFL saying is you don't have one.  Rivers isn't going to come cheap.  They aren't paying him all that money to be in competition with Chad Kelly, Hoyer, Brissett and whoever else.  They'll name him the starter fairly quick and it will remain that way unless he totally falls off the cliff. 

[shasta519]

9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

http://www.indianasportscoverage.com/indianapolis-colts-expected-to-sign-philip-rivers-could-trade-jacoby-brissett/

 

 

Really depends...

 

At $6M (his base salary)...and with a strong reference from Reich (for JB's presence in the room and in practice)...he is probably worth a 4th or 5th round pick for a team needing a backup.

 

At ~$15M (his base salary + roster bonus)...not so much. A team...in that scenario...would have to see him as a bridge starter for the upcoming season (because ~$9M of that is gtd). If I was Ballard...I would try to sweeten the pot with a 6th round pick or a player...or a legit pick swap. 

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, KB said:

And maybe I could be wrong lol. Hasnt been the first time and wont be the last.

You don't bring in a guy like Rivers for an open competition. You can bring in a rook, or a prove it guy, but not a guy who will be high dollar. You also risk a locker room issue. Better to clean house so the new guy isn't fighting for support with the incumbent.

[KB]

1 minute ago, krunk said:

Doesn't work that way at QB.  Teams always want to name their starting QB as soon as possible.  If you are not sure who your QB is then the old NFL saying is you don't have one.  Rivers isn't going to come cheap.  They aren't paying him all that money to be in competition Chad Kelly, Hoyer, Brissett and whoever else.  They'll name him the starter fairly quick and it will remain that way unless he totally falls off the cliff. 

All I'm saying is that Ballard has said recently that he wants competition at every spot, even QB.

 

If that tweet holds up that they're looking to trade him, then JB isnt going to be part of that.

[IndySouthsider]

1 hour ago, Superfly said:

Two 20M per year QBs on the same roster?

 

JB will be cut. It’s not rocket science!

15.8 Million and if he is cut it still cost your cap 12.5. Your essentially saving 3 million.

[KB]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

You don't bring in a guy like Rivers for an open competition. You can bring in a rook, or a prove it guy, but not a guy who will be high dollar. You also risk a locker room issue. Better to clean house so the new guy isn't fighting for support with the incumbent.

That makes sense. If JB really has the love of the locker room, his presence would most likely cause a rift if not the starting QB.

[shasta519]

7 minutes ago, krunk said:

Doesn't work that way at QB.  Teams always want to name their starting QB as soon as possible.  If you are not sure who your QB is then the old NFL saying is you don't have one.  Rivers isn't going to come cheap.  They aren't paying him all that money to be in competition with Chad Kelly, Hoyer, Brissett and whoever else.  They'll name him the starter fairly quick and it will remain that way unless he totally falls off the cliff. 

 

Yeah...there's a difference between competition and insurance. Teams don't willingly create QB controversies...that is a great way to divide the locker room. So there is typically a clear hierarchy (exceptions like SEA notwithstanding)...but if that starter falters...then the backup will get his chance.

 

[CanuckColt]

1 hour ago, krunk said:

Doesn't work that way at QB.  Teams always want to name their starting QB as soon as possible.  If you are not sure who your QB is then the old NFL saying is you don't have one.  Rivers isn't going to come cheap.  They aren't paying him all that money to be in competition with Chad Kelly, Hoyer, Brissett and whoever else.  They'll name him the starter fairly quick and it will remain that way unless he totally falls off the cliff. 

Yep.

Brissett and his dollars is gone.

Hoyer and his dollars is probably gone.

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

Really depends...

 

At $6M (his base salary)...and with a strong reference from Reich (for JB's presence in the room and in practice)...he is probably worth a 4th or 5th round pick for a team needing a backup.

 

At ~$15M (his base salary + roster bonus)...not so much. A team...in that scenario...would have to see him as a bridge starter for the upcoming season (because ~$9M of that is gtd). If I was Ballard...I would try to sweeten the pot with a 6th round pick or a player...or a legit pick swap. 

 

Knowing what Irsay has done in the past, I think they will try to whatever they can to get JB into the best situation. If that means eating $, they'd probably do that.

[Myles]

Rivers winning in a landslide.  

 

I'm not sure Brissetts ceiling gets to Rivers floor.    

[shasta519]

12 minutes ago, IndySouthsider said:

15.8 Million and if he is cut it still cost your cap 12.5. Your essentially saving 3 million.

 

His cap hit is $21.4M....$6M base, $8.875M roster and $5.5M remaining signing bonus.

 

$7M of that roster bonus is already gtd...so his dead cap hit would be that $7M + remaining $5.5M signing bonus...or $12.5M. This would save the Colts ~9M in cap space.

 

IF they can get a team to take that roster bonus...then his dead cap hit is only the remaining $5.5M signing bonus...and he would save ~$16M in cap space. Add Hoyer's cap space to that...and you almost have Rivers cap hit.

 

 

[shasta519]

7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Knowing what Irsay has done in the past, I think they will try to whatever they can to get JB into the best situation. If that means eating $, they'd probably do that.

 

You are likely correct. Me personally...I am very interested to see if Ballard approaches this as more of a business/football decision or a locker room decision.

[WifiGuy]

46 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

Put yourself in that spot. You walk into work tomorrow and your boss says “hey, we hired someone else to do your job. If they don’t do it well you can go back to doing it. Or if they do it well we’re going to move you into a different job. Trouble is, we need you to make less money to make that happen. Whaddaya say?”

 

You just gonna sigh right up for that?

Put yourself in that spot. You walk into work tomorrow and your boss says “hey, we hired someone else to do your job. If they don’t do it well you can go back to doing it. Or if they do it well we’re going to move you into a different job. Trouble is, we need you to make less money to make that happen. Whaddaya say?”

 

You just gonna sign right up for that?

Well the other option is probably getting cut and being a backup on another team for even less money.  No guarantees he would get a better deal elsewhere.  Or he can ask to be traded

[EastStreet]

19 minutes ago, IndySouthsider said:

15.8 Million and if he is cut it still cost your cap 12.5. Your essentially saving 3 million.

I really don't think it will be about the money. I think it will be about what's best for both Rivers and Brissett. They'll want to give Rivers a clean slate in the locker room, void of loyalty confusion, and I think they will want to get JB to the best place for him.

[EastStreet]

26 minutes ago, KB said:

That makes sense. If JB really has the love of the locker room, his presence would most likely cause a rift if not the starting QB.

I think Irsay will do what's best for both players.

19 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

You are likely correct. Me personally...I am very interested to see if Ballard approaches this as more of a business/football decision or a locker room decision.

I think they are one in the same in a lot of cases. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Both of PITTs backups are better than JB.

No they aren’t lol. 

[shasta519]

6 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I think they are one in the same in a lot of cases. 

 

They probably are...but I would argue that...trading #13 for a non-home grown player AND then giving that player a massive contract that dwarfs any other non-QB on the team...was much more of a business/football decision. 

 

Meanwhile, releasing JB in lieu of shedding his roster bonus and freeing up usable cap space would not be a business/football decision...sort of like when they gave him that early extension (though I don't really want to rehash that argument). 

 

But I agree...it's a subjective area. 

[aaron11]

38 minutes ago, KB said:

All I'm saying is that Ballard has said recently that he wants competition at every spot, even QB.

 

If that tweet holds up that they're looking to trade him, then JB isnt going to be part of that.

The contract will force his hand on this one, they don't want that much money on the bench.  

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, shastamasta said:

 

They probably are...but I would argue that...trading #13 for a non-home grown player AND then giving that player a massive contract that dwarfs any other non-QB on the team...was much more of a business/football decision. 

 

Meanwhile, releasing JB in lieu of shedding his roster bonus and freeing up usable cap space would not be a business/football decision...sort of like when they gave him that early extension (though I don't really want to rehash that argument). 

 

But I agree...it's a subjective area. 

Adding a home run player for a home run price is understandable by the locker room, and likely very much supported. I guarantee the DBs are all applauding right now lol... The locker room knows everyone can't be home grown, and ultimately, they want to win. Sure, maybe some will be resentful, but that's just business lol.... 

[ojsglove]

Winning usually makes for a pretty happy locker room

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

9 hours ago, rayski said:

Hardly any stat there I'm impressed by, especially not the 9-7, 9-7 and 4-12 records they produced together. I get your point, my opinion is just different. Typically when you sign a veteran(38) qb, you signing them believing they will win you a championship. I see nothing that tells me he'll suddenly become a winner w the Colts. Only time will tell tho.

I do, great top 5 qb now a colt

[packlawyer04]

NC State graduate. I'm laughing that anyone voted for Jacoby. I still can't believe you guys paid him that much money. Rivers is #1, Wilson is #2 out of NC State. Jacoby is way down the list.  River is about to ball out if you guys give him some protection.

[Myles]

11 hours ago, packlawyer04 said:

NC State graduate. I'm laughing that anyone voted for Jacoby. I still can't believe you guys paid him that much money. Rivers is #1, Wilson is #2 out of NC State. Jacoby is way down the list.  River is about to ball out if you guys give him some protection.

He'll have the protection.   

[jemack]

JB 1st 1/2 of the season, PR 2nd 1/2 and playoffs.

[Bolts2Colts]

23 hours ago, Flash7 said:

Without a doubt, P. Rivers is a better passer and would provide an upgrade.

 

Also, we will most likely add to our receiving corps.

 

As it currently stands:

1. T.Y. Hilton

2. P. Campbell

3. D. Inman

4. Z. Pascal

5. R. Fountain

 

When healthy, they are capable. Nonetheless, look for CB to add to the receiving corps.

Inman had his best years 2014-2017 with Rivers and the Chargers. Expect to see a resurgence there. 

[lincolndefan]

On 3/17/2020 at 2:07 PM, WifiGuy said:

Yep.   They didn't bring him in thinking he would have to play a lot.  They knew JB was going to need some help breaking down film etc.  JB got injured as well as other players and it all fell apart.

 

Even Rivers is going to need a vet mind to be his sous chef

 

No No No!!! Rivers has forgot more than JB has ever known. Trust me, Rivers needs no help from JB. Absolutely ludicious!

[basketballsteve]

I think there should be a third choice of both. I like that Rivers strengths and weakness are very dissimilar from those of JB. I would like to see a system where other teams might feel a need to prepare for 2 dissimilar QBs each week. If it is Rivers only, teams will prepare coverages and rush for a QB that is not threat out of the pocket if teams have to prepare for both it will be much harder. The idea of a relief QB has rarely been done but it absolutely can work Lamonica/Blanda.

[WifiGuy]

3 hours ago, lincolndefan said:

 

No No No!!! Rivers has forgot more than JB has ever known. Trust me, Rivers needs no help from JB. Absolutely ludicious!

Uh Huh .   you have no clue .    Even Peyton and Tom (Hoyer) talked about having a quality backup.  And Ballard has said it.   

 

You really don't understand what a back up QB does or brings to the team.   

 

 

[AZColt11]

I don't think physically that Rivers is an upgrade over Brissett.  BUT, that isn't all there is to it.  For one, Rivers had a horrible OL in San Diego.  Don't believe me?  Just go back and re-watch the Colts-Chargers from last year like I just did.  He was under pressure on > 50% of his drop-backs, and the Colts weren't exactly stalwarts rushing the passer last year.  So I think him having just a second more to hit a receiver will make a HUGE difference.  Then, he reads defenses MUCH better IMHO.  Add onto that the fact that he has WAY more experience than JB.  Throw in that he has already worked with Reich and Sirianni and give him a good running game behind him and I think he will be just fine here.  Now, where I worry is with the blitz.  He needs to have a hot read available at all times (Hines?) because he is basically a statue back there.  But I feel like if we can pick that up he will be fine.  And him throwing a pick here or there isn't going to scare him off.  I realize throwing an occasional pick is bad, but what about throwing a bunch of check-downs and punting all the time?  How is that helpful?

 

I don't LOVE the Rivers signing but I understand it.  He gives this team more of a chance for at least 2020.  Besides, if Rivers were the perfect QB he wouldn't have been available.