Senior Bowl

[DougDew]

12 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

Does anyone still think Love will still be on the board at 13?

If we want Herbert, Tua, Or Love.......

 

We are going to have to give up some picks

 

Washington, Detroit, and NY will be fielding MANY calls to trade

 

So who are 8 positional players that would be taken over Burrow, Herbert, Tua, or Love? 

 

Brown, Okudah, Jeudy (deep WR class, I only expect one to go real high), EDGE......ILB Simmons

 

need 3 more.  2 OTs?   Need another.  Will all of those go?

[BleedBlue4Shoe86]

So this might be a stupid question. What do they do today? They practiced Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and the game is on Saturday. So what are they doing today? Interviews? Meeting?

[MikeCurtis]

12 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I said it awhile back and of course I could b wrong.  The one qb that seems to fit what Reich wants is Fromm. We shall see.  Draft Kinlaw and move up into the 1st and get Fromm.  I really don't understand the love with all the qbs this year.  I think they all have major flaws with the exception of Fromm.  Even Burrows is a one year wonder.  I like consistency over the span of a college career. I think that leads to long term success.

I hate to disagree with a fellow Colts fan. But the going sentiment (nfl talking heads) on Fromm is that he is a 2-3 Round QB

 

He had fantastic talent all around him with a stout OL and only completed 60%
 

That number will be harder to improve upon in the pros 
 

I personally don’t see an improvement over JB with From

 

 

But...... who knows?
 

[Thunderbolt]

I'm glad I'm not the only one favoring Fromm to be a  Colt, I guess you might say if someone else sees what I see, then there has to be a substance of truth to there post.  Again, I'm all for Fromm and a way upgrade to JB, no doubt.

[Dingus McGirt]

I don't know, it will be awkward.  "Hilton with a touchdown reception from Fromm."

[stitches]

40 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

Does anyone still think Love will still be on the board at 13?

If we want Herbert, Tua, Or Love.......

 

We are going to have to give up some picks

 

Washington, Detroit, and NY will be fielding MANY calls to trade

 

I think it's possible. People overreact to a week of practice where you cannot really see a lot of what will be required of them in the NFL. IMO most of the most valuable things are going on behind the scenes - meetings with teams, work with the coaching staffs behind closed doors about learning the new offense, etc. His work at the practices has been good from what I've seen, but it's nothing we didn't already know - we knew his arm is great, we knew he had amazing touch, we knew about his mobility, we knew he has lapses where he doesn't see dropping linebackers in coverage, etc. All of those have been on display at those practices and probably will be on display at the game. There is really nothing knew. IMO a lot of fans are prisoners of the moment right now(I include myself in this count sometimes) when they see all the great throws he's making. The much more important things for Love's stock are going on in his meetings with teams and in them watching him interact with teammates, evaluating his leadership and attitude, his mental acuity, etc. It's possible his stock is rising, but it's possible it's not affected much by this week. 

 

My position is - if you love the guy, go get him. Don't let a New England or Saints or Steelers jump in front of you and grab you in front of you. Don't let Gruden realize some of his fantasies about a playmaking QB with the Raiders. Go get him yourself. This is QB. If you truly believe in him, and he pans out, noone will be asking you about that 2nd or 3d round pick you gave up to go get him.

 

40 minutes ago, BleedBlue4Shoe86 said:

Here is the perfect example of the quirky style. 

I don't mind his quirky release. It's lightening fast and that's what matters most. It's other things that he has to work on much more. 

 

38 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Andrew Thomas, the big OT from UGA, in late round 1 is intriguing.  Most have him going higher than that.  Maybe the NFL sees him as being more of a run blocker than a pass blocker.

That would be an amazing pick in late 1st. He's not to most nimble footed OT, but IMO he's a very secure and technically sound tackle. I'd trade up from 34 to wherever we have to trade up to get him if he indeed starts dropping. This is even if AC comes back.  

[MikeCurtis]

40 minutes ago, DougDew said:

So who are 8 positional players that would be taken over Burrow, Herbert, Tua, or Love? 

 

Brown, Okudah, Jeudy (deep WR class, I only expect one to go real high), EDGE......ILB Simmons

 

need 3 more.  2 OTs?   Need another.  Will all of those go?

The league is starving for Top QB talent

 

I see the top 4 QBs gone before pick 10

Love and Herbert made their case this week, to join Tua and Burrows at that top level

 

[Fluke_33]

1 hour ago, MikeCurtis said:

Does anyone still think Love will still be on the board at 13?

If we want Herbert, Tua, Or Love.......

 

We are going to have to give up some picks

 

Washington, Detroit, and NY will be fielding MANY calls to trade

 

I won't be shocked if qbs go 1through 4 (because of trades of course)  but then a stud at another position should reach 13 and i'm good with that.

[stitches]

54 minutes ago, DougDew said:

So who are 8 positional players that would be taken over Burrow, Herbert, Tua, or Love? 

 

Brown, Okudah, Jeudy (deep WR class, I only expect one to go real high), EDGE......ILB Simmons

 

need 3 more.  2 OTs?   Need another.  Will all of those go?

Young, Simmons, Brown, Okudah, Jeudy, Lamb, Jedrick Wills(OT)... those IMO are the surefire ones. 

 

I personally would think Andrew Thomas gets drafted before 13 too, but that Miller report is weird so ... who knows? That makes it 8. Tristan Wirfs? He's more of a RT, so it's possible he drops to mid-1st, but he's very good so... I don't know. 

 

There is a push for Mekhi Becton(OT) to be early 1st too lately. Jeremiah had him as his OT1. I wonder if some teams agree... possible. 

 

Grant Delpit is great talent, but I expect him to drop a bit. 

 

Henry Ruggs? If there is a run on WRs, it's possible he goes ahead of 13? Not likely, but maybe? 

 

Quite honestly... if we don't like the QBs... there will be some really good talent on the board for us to take. I love it.  

[Matthew Gilbert]

40 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

He had fantastic talent all around him with a stout OL and only completed 60%

I blame the system more than I blame Fromm's talent. Joe Burrow put up worse stats in a similar system to UGA's in 2018. 

[TheBlueAndWhite]

Thoughts on Cole McDonald from Hawaii? Is he even at the senior bowl, dude plays good football. NFL draft scout says he's eligible for the 2020 draft. 

[Matthew Gilbert]

10 minutes ago, TheBlueAndWhite said:

Thoughts on Cole McDonald from Hawaii? Is he even at the senior bowl, dude plays good football. NFL draft scout says he's eligible for the 2020 draft. 

Kind of a wildcard right now. I could see a team taking him earlier than expected, but he could also go undrafted. His game reminds me of Kaepernick's. He'd likely need a few years to develop, but he does have some upside.

[DougDew]

37 minutes ago, stitches said:

Young, Simmons, Brown, Okudah, Jeudy, Lamb, Jedrick Wills(OT)... those IMO are the surefire ones. 

 

I personally would think Andrew Thomas gets drafted before 13 too, but that Miller report is weird so ... who knows? That makes it 8. Tristan Wirfs? He's more of a RT, so it's possible he drops to mid-1st, but he's very good so... I don't know. 

 

There is a push for Mekhi Becton(OT) to be early 1st too lately. Jeremiah had him as his OT1. I wonder if some teams agree... possible. 

 

Grant Delpit is great talent, but I expect him to drop a bit. 

 

Henry Ruggs? If there is a run on WRs, it's possible he goes ahead of 13? Not likely, but maybe? 

 

Quite honestly... if we don't like the QBs... there will be some really good talent on the board for us to take. I love it.  

Good post.  Thanks. 

 

I don't see the love for Lamb.  I'm no expert, but watching him in the big games he seemed to come up short.  OTOH, Jeudy performed.  Not that Lamb isn't good, I just see clear separation there. 

 

Relative to Thomas, I assume an OT drops due to questions about his ability to block speed rushers, because he's a massive human being.  That thought plays into Fromm's analysis of coming from a running based system and lack of down field stats.  Not a perfect correlation, but something to look at.  Again, maybe Thomas just didn't have much opportunity to develop/show off enough pass blocking skills.

 

I can't see Wirfs or any projected RT going before 13.  They just don't go that high, IMO.  

 

I don't expect a team to leap from the 20's into the top 10, but I think there may be a lot of movement in the top 15 teams to position themselves for a QB.  JMO.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I think with all the WR talent your going to see teams waiting on WR if their is good oline talent or defensive players. Jeudy and Lamb I think will go quick but after that I think WR are going to fall a bit.

[DougDew]

49 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

The league is starving for Top QB talent

 

I see the top 4 QBs gone before pick 10

Love and Herbert made their case this week, to join Tua and Burrows at that top level

 

So far they have.  I think conditions have been favorable for these kids to show off their talents.  I suppose its possible for a player to lower his stock during the Senior Bowl, but I would think that conditions are good for QBs to put forth their best efforts.

 

I contend that the two most important traits for a QB is field vision and ball accuracy, knowing where to throw it, and then throwing it there.  I'm not sure if any QB in pre draft bowls or workouts has those traits challenged much. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

9 hours ago, stitches said:

So... do you like PFF now?  

I still think PFF is ridiculous. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

So it seems all the teams evaluators leave after the practices are over and watch the game from home. So everything that happens during the week seems to be more important then the actual game.

[Coffeedrinker]

52 minutes ago, DougDew said:

So far they have.  I think conditions have been favorable for these kids to show off their talents.  I suppose its possible for a player to lower his stock during the Senior Bowl, but I would think that conditions are good for QBs to put forth their best efforts.

 

I contend that the two most important traits for a QB is field vision and ball accuracy, knowing where to throw it, and then throwing it there.  I'm not sure if any QB in pre draft bowls or workouts has those traits challenged much. 

I agree with you about (I'm changing vision to awareness but essentially the same thing) but that is with the assumption the QB has minimum NFL arm strength and that is the knock on Fromm, is he may not have the minimum arm strength for NFL throws.

 

I am not saying I agree or disagree with that assessment, that is what I have read.  Everything else about Fromm is positive, work ethic, desire, football IQ, leadership, etc.  And personally, I figure there has to be something to a guy that, in college, sent two more highly recruited and, supposedly, more talented QBs packing off to other colleges.

[DougDew]

2 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I agree with you about (I'm changing vision to awareness but essentially the same thing) but that is with the assumption the QB has minimum NFL arm strength and that is the knock on Fromm, is he may not have the minimum arm strength for NFL throws.

 

I am not saying I agree or disagree with that assessment, that is what I have read.  Everything else about Fromm is positive, work ethic, desire, football IQ, leadership, etc.  And personally, I figure there has to be something to a guy that, in college, sent two more highly recruited and, supposedly, more talented QBs packing off to other colleges.

Oh I agree.  I don't know if he does have the arm, but I also don't know how well that has been tested.  I don't know if the scheme emphasized the run because of his arm, or that Kirby Smart is just a bull headed coach.  I'm thinking Kirby had a lot do do with it, because if down field throws were important in Kirby's system, then why would Fields and Eason both transfer out having to sit behind a guy who couldn't do that?

 

If I could give Fromm Eason's physicals, that would be my pick at 13 hands down.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Whenever you look a a QB highlight videos all you usually see is great plays. When you watch Fromms there is so many missed down the field throws. 

[DougDew]

6 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Whenever you look a a QB highlight videos all you usually see is great plays. When you watch Fromms there is so many missed down the field throws. 

Not sure what you mean.  Other QBs have highlights of them making all of their throws but Fromm's highlight reel shows him missing a lot of throws? 

 

He's got to get a better publicity posse.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

This would be so bad for the colts. Maybe the lions are just trying to get a trade partner by scaring a team they want TUA.

 

 

[throwing BBZ]

17 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I said it awhile back and of course I could b wrong.  The one qb that seems to fit what Reich wants is Fromm. We shall see.  Draft Kinlaw and move up into the 1st and get Fromm.  I really don't understand the love with all the qbs this year.  I think they all have major flaws with the exception of Fromm.  Even Burrows is a one year wonder.  I like consistency over the span of a college career. I think that leads to long term success.

 

 It seems more logical right now that one could trade back in the 2nd rd to get Fromm.

 

[MikeCurtis]

3 hours ago, DougDew said:

Good post.  Thanks. 

 

I don't see the love for Lamb.  I'm no expert, but watching him in the big games he seemed to come up short.  OTOH, Jeudy performed.  Not that Lamb isn't good, I just see clear separation there. 

 

Relative to Thomas, I assume an OT drops due to questions about his ability to block speed rushers, because he's a massive human being.  That thought plays into Fromm's analysis of coming from a running based system and lack of down field stats.  Not a perfect correlation, but something to look at.  Again, maybe Thomas just didn't have much opportunity to develop/show off enough pass blocking skills.

 

I can't see Wirfs or any projected RT going before 13.  They just don't go that high, IMO.  

 

I don't expect a team to leap from the 20's into the top 10, but I think there may be a lot of movement in the top 15 teams to position themselves for a QB.  JMO.

Lamb is awesome....

 

2 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

This would be so bad for the colts. Maybe the lions are just trying to get a trade partner by scaring a team they want TUA.

 

 

This is the EASIEST way to add trade value to your pick

 

but. Who knows if Lions will do it

[Coffeedrinker]

3 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

Whenever you look a a QB highlight videos all you usually see is great plays. When you watch Fromms there is so many missed down the field throws. 

Really?  Well, here's one I don't see any missed down the field throws.

[coltsblue1844]

36 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Really?  Well, here's one I don't see any missed down the field throws.

 

Fromm is bigger than Drew Brees at 6'2 220lbs and has just as much arm strength as Peyton had in his prime, before his neck surgeries... he is very accurate, he has won everywhere that he has gone...

 

This time of year, people fall in love with the "next big thing" based on upside or possible upside with development down the road...they fall in love with having a huge arm etc...and the majority of those guys never pan out, otherwise there would be an abundance of star QBs starting all over the NFL.

 

Give me the best player available at #13... a top WR, DT or LT...then take Fromm in the 2nd round and be happy to have the guy who could very well end up as the best QB in this draft, anyhow.

 

Everyone said Luck lacked arm strength...They said Peyton lacked arm strength... They said that RGIII would be better...that Leaf would be better... JaMarcus Russell went #1 because everyone fell in love with his arm...Aaron Rodgers went at the end of round 1...Brees didnt even go in round 1... i think they both ended up better than anyone else in their draft classes.

 

[BleedBlue4Shoe86]

Gosh, just another reason to like him. 

 

[DougDew]

54 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Really?  Well, here's one I don't see any missed down the field throws.

Geez CD, he definitely has strong enough arm.   Favorable highlights or not, you can't fake the zip on some of those throws.

[LockeDown]

23 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Geez CD, he definitely has strong enough arm.   Favorable highlights or not, you can't fake the zip on some of those throws.

I agree. I bet he tests well enough in arm strength. 

[DougDew]

1 minute ago, LockeDown said:

I agree. I bet he tests well enough in arm strength. 

He'll come in last of all of the QBs, and because of that, he'll be called a 3rd rounder, LOL.

[MikeCurtis]

37 minutes ago, coltsblue1844 said:

 

Fromm is bigger than Drew Brees at 6'2 220lbs and has just as much arm strength as Peyton had in his prime, before his neck surgeries... he is very accurate, he has won everywhere that he has gone...

 

This time of year, people fall in love with the "next big thing" based on upside or possible upside with development down the road...they fall in love with having a huge arm etc...and the majority of those guys never pan out, otherwise there would be an abundance of star QBs starting all over the NFL.

 

Give me the best player available at #13... a top WR, DT or LT...then take Fromm in the 2nd round and be happy to have the guy who could very well end up as the best QB in this draft, anyhow.

 

Everyone said Luck lacked arm strength...They said Peyton lacked arm strength... They said that RGIII would be better...that Leaf would be better... JaMarcus Russell went #1 because everyone fell in love with his arm...Aaron Rodgers went at the end of round 1...Brees didnt even go in round 1... i think they both ended up better than anyone else in their draft classes.

 

Sheeze I hate to disagree with a fellow Colts fan but there are some statements that don’t seem to line up

 

“Arm strength equal to Peyton “ Fromm?
 

Please share link

 

“Everyone says that Luck lacked arm strength”

Please share link 

 

I haven’t heard these things

 

[Coffeedrinker]

I don't remember people saying either Manning or Luck did not have arm strength.  I do remember in comparison Leaf was said to have a stronger arm, but I've seen no mention of people questioning whether manning had the arm strength to make NFL throws.

 

But I did find this article very interesting.  It was a panel of 5 guys debating the merits of Leaf and Manning.  And these are not just any 5 guys

 

Quote

The panel was made up of Tampa Bay Buccaneers director of player personnel Jerry Angelo; Sid Gillman, who was instrumental in the development of the West Coach offense; Denver Broncos coach Mike Shanahan; former New York Giants quarterback and Super Bowl MVP Phil Simms; UCLA coach Bob Toledo, whose Bruins played Tennessee and Washington State in each of the last two seasons; and former San Francisco 49ers coach Bill Walsh. The panelists raised doubts about Leaf's mental preparedness and mechanics but still liked him as a player.

 

So a pretty good group of people.  Here is the article for those that are interested, it's a great piece

 

But what caught my eye at the end of the article and what I think applies most to this thread is this

Quote

"Quarterback is the toughest position in sports to coach, to evaluate and to play," says Angelo, an NFL scout for 18 years. "A few years ago, we studied the top 30 quarterbacks of all time. The Number 1 trait we found was toughness; they all had it. Number 2 was accuracy. Number 3 was instincts. The last was work ethic and maturity. 

Notice a big arm (or a live arm seems to be the key phrase this year) is not on the list.

 

I know, people will point to Mahomes and his arm and mahomes has a monster arm, but so did Jamarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf and Jeff George, but Mahomes has the top 3 plus a monster arm.

[coltsblue1844]

35 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

Sheeze I hate to disagree with a fellow Colts fan but there are some statements that don’t seem to line up

 

“Arm strength equal to Peyton “ Fromm?
 

Please share link

 

“Everyone says that Luck lacked arm strength”

Please share link 

 

I haven’t heard these things

 

Yes, Fromm has equal arm strength to what Peyton had and yes, before the draft people questioned his arm strength and physical ability

 

Yes, they also questioned Luck's arm strength, which is why all of the team scouts requested him to display it at the end of his pro day.  Use google, it will be pretty easy for you to find.

[coltsblue1844]

24 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I don't remember people saying either Manning or Luck did not have arm strength.  I do remember in comparison Leaf was said to have a stronger arm, but I've seen no mention of people questioning whether manning had the arm strength to make NFL throws.

 

But I did find this article very interesting.  It was a panel of 5 guys debating the merits of Leaf and Manning.  And these are not just any 5 guys

 

 

So a pretty good group of people.  Here is the article for those that are interested, it's a great piece

 

But what caught my eye at the end of the article and what I think applies most to this thread is this

Notice a big arm (or a live arm seems to be the key phrase this year) is not on the list.

 

I know, people will point to Mahomes and his arm and mahomes has a monster arm, but so did Jamarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf and Jeff George, but Mahomes has the top 3 plus a monster arm.

They did question both before the draft... said Peyton lacked arm strength and physical tools and they questioned Luck to the point that at his pro day they all (team scouts) requested for him to display what he had, so the last play of his pro day, he threw a perfect deep ball that traveled an great distance in the air, against the wind.

[coltsblue1844]

42 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

Sheeze I hate to disagree with a fellow Colts fan but there are some statements that don’t seem to line up

 

“Arm strength equal to Peyton “ Fromm?
 

Please share link

 

“Everyone says that Luck lacked arm strength”

Please share link 

 

I haven’t heard these things

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/11654158/manning-leaf-1998-draft

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1009175-2012-nfl-draft-scouting-report-breakdown-analysis-of-stanfords-andrew-luck

 

 

"Arm Strength 

Going from a touch pass to a bullet is not always easy, but that is something that I look to do in an effort to * Luck's arm strength. This trait is one that is questioned the most by scouts because Luck does not have a great arm."  Peter King

 

https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2012aluck.php

"Weaknesses:

Does not have top-level arm strength"

[DougDew]

33 minutes ago, coltsblue1844 said:

Yes, Fromm has equal arm strength to what Peyton had and yes, before the draft people questioned his arm strength and physical ability

 

Yes, they also questioned Luck's arm strength, which is why all of the team scouts requested him to display it at the end of his pro day.  Use google, it will be pretty easy for you to find.

Yep.  Not only that, But into his NFL career PM tended to flutter and not rotate the ball has much as the other QBs with better "arm talent".  PM was tall, but not physical.  And many were surprised when Luck threw a 60 yard pass or something at the end of his pro day, because he had too.

 

Physical ability:

 

Mahomes, Wilson, Jackson. Allen.  These successful QBs have suddenly made the pocket QB obsolete in the eyes of many.  NVM that Brady and Rivers succeeded, and that there has always been a mix of successful QBs who moved and those who stayed in the pocket.  Archie Manning, Terry Bradshaw, Roger the dodger Staubach, Fran Tarkenton; Dan Marino, Troy Aikmen,  Boomer Esiason, Ken Anderson, Dan Fouts.

 

Pocket or escapability doesn't matter. 

 

Sometimes, mobile Qbs get nervous after 3 seconds and leave a clean pocket to extend the original play when they didn't have to. 

 

Others stay put and stay ready for the receiver group to extend the original play, then fire it to them. If they have a clean enough pocket for that long, that is the issue.

 

One doesn't work better than the other necessarily.

[LockeDown]

The more I read about Fromm the more I think the Colts value his traits. They already interviewed him and I bet he nailed that.  

[Coffeedrinker]

1 hour ago, coltsblue1844 said:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/11654158/manning-leaf-1998-draft

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1009175-2012-nfl-draft-scouting-report-breakdown-analysis-of-stanfords-andrew-luck

 

 

"Arm Strength 

Going from a touch pass to a bullet is not always easy, but that is something that I look to do in an effort to * Luck's arm strength. This trait is one that is questioned the most by scouts because Luck does not have a great arm."  Peter King

 

https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2012aluck.php

"Weaknesses:

Does not have top-level arm strength"

  here is from your article on Manning

 

Quote

Tom put Peyton through the arm-strength drill, and his pass to the 50-yard line was on a rope. Peyton's arm was among the strongest I have seen. It maybe was not quite as strong as Jim Kelly's, but certainly strong enough. Interestingly, Peyton threw what we call a "heavy ball," meaning it has a lot of rotation on it, which was quite interesting because guys with weaker arms usually don't throw a heavy ball. When you catch a heavy ball, your hands sting because it comes out with some heat on it.

 

 

And on Luck, does not have top level arm strength.  Again, not top level arm strength is not the same as inadequate arm strength.

 

Lastly, thanks for posting the articles. definitely showed me things I didn't remember.  But I did want to say, just because the draft "experts" say something does not make it true.

[DougDew]

Just a quick search about PM in 1998.  Just saying PMs arm strength was questioned during the process, rightly or wrongly, by media pundits creating a "popular belief" that gets shot down.

 

All the panelists except Shanahan and Toledo, both of whom did extensive analyses of their own videos of Manning and Leaf before being interviewed, watched SI-provided game tapes. The group shot down the popular belief that Manning can't throw the deep ball. Indeed, the experts extolled Manning for making every throw with precision.

 

And the lack of rotation and a wobbly pass was thought to be a contributor to Manning's lack of production in outdoor games.  Whether its true or not, is not the point, its what the media pundits would say. 

[CoachLite]

10 hours ago, BleedBlue4Shoe86 said:

Here is the perfect example of the quirky style. 

Doesn't seem to affect his accuracy and his depth. He's probably not a bomber, tho'.