Colts in "strong pursuit" of Tyrell Williams

[lollygagger8]

That's Golden Tate money. Don't pay Williams that much. 

[DougDew]

8 hours ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

He sounds like a good fit to me.

 

https://coltswire.usatoday.com/2019/02/10/indianapolis-colts-free-agency-tyrell-williams/amp/#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s

He sounds like his real value is as a replacement for when TY is out of the lineup rather than a true everydown #2.  Not that he wouldn't do that, but he'd slide to TYs role if/when TY gets nicked up.

 

When TY was dinged, we had no one else who could be a deep threat.

 

Then ballard wouldn't necessarily be looking for that kind of WR in the draft, taking some of the tall hyped guys out of the discussion.

 

TY, Deebo Samuel, and Williams would make a nice trio.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

He sounds like his real value is as a replacement for when TY is out of the lineup rather than a true everydown #2.  Not that he wouldn't do that, but he'd slide to TYs role if/when TY gets nicked up.

 

When TY was dinged, we had no one else who could be a deep threat.

 

Then ballard wouldn't necessarily be looking for that kind of WR in the draft, taking some of the tall hyped guys out of the discussion.

 

TY, Deebo Samuel, and Williams would make a nice trio.

This don’t make sense. This guy looks good enough to keep double teams off of ty. That is his real value. He can be a number one if TY gets hurt but his real value is to stretch the field when needed. The only reason is production went down is LA has two other great receivers. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

7 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

Not saying rely on Cain. I am all for going strong at WR this offseason...trust me. I am just not convinced Williams is that guy at his supposed price...and I think the Colts might have that type of player on the roster in Cain or they could find a H/W/S guy in the draft. 

We supposed to just go pick a WR off a tree. This is guy is probably the best WR our their in FA. The coaches know what he can do. Trust them.

7 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

Not saying rely on Cain. I am all for going strong at WR this offseason...trust me. I am just not convinced Williams is that guy at his supposed price...and I think the Colts might have that type of player on the roster in Cain or they could find a H/W/S guy in the draft. 

We supposed to just go pick a WR off a tree. This is guy is probably the best WR our their in FA. The coaches know what he can do. Trust them.

[krunk]

Whatever they feel they have to pay for the guy I'm all for it.  They already know what his value is and both Sirianni and Frank Reich have history with this guy.  Frank Reich was his offensive coordinator and Sirianni was his receivers coach.  They are well aware of the value T. W. would bring in their scheme and to the team.  Not really much concern from me here!  Getting him here would give us at least 3 potential deep threats in Hilton, Cain, and Williams.  Then get me Funchess and another guy from the draft to compete with Fountain. Whoever the winner is between Fountain and the draft pick stays on the team. The loser goes to the P.S.

[DougDew]

52 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

This don’t make sense. This guy looks good enough to keep double teams off of ty. That is his real value. He can be a number one if TY gets hurt but his real value is to stretch the field when needed. The only reason is production went down is LA has two other great receivers. 

TY's value is his deep threat.  That's what opens up his catches underneath, as well as not being constantly double teamed.  Williams as #2 can also provide a deep threat which could help TY but also help an underneath athlete YAC WR, who is currently not on the roster.  Catch the ball short and use athleticism to get YAC.  When TY gets hurt, Williams can still provide a deep threat.

 

Williams has value, but its not really different than how TY provides value.

 

If we sign Williams, we still need the reliable underneath WR, IMO.  

 

Do you draft a Williams clone at 26 or 34, then look for a FA YAC WR (who's available)?   Or is it easier to sign Williams and find an underneath YAC WR in the draft, maybe at #58?  I think the latter option is better.

 

Then we'll have three good WRs.  And possibly a #1 to take over for TY in a few years.

 

[Superman]

9 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

He has a great highlight reel...because he is such a deep threat and makes splash plays. And I would love to have that type of threat on this team. But like you...I struggled with the cost..and I also think that type of player can be found in this draft.

 

 It's just hard for me to envision Luck bombing it down the field like Rivers does. But who knows...it's not like they had that type of weapon (outside of Hilton) last year. But without that...I think Williams loses a bit of value. So then it becomes about getting open in the intermediate range and picking up YAC. 

  

I really wish there was a Robert Woods type player in this FA group. But if I had to choose...someone like Tate and a pair of WRs in the draft would be my preference.

 

The bolded is why I prefer Humphries, and I've been saying that for a while now. Not that I don't like Williams, but I think the intermediate, YAC, quick separation would be more valuable to us. So in contrast, I'd rather pay Humphries a premium at $10m/year because I value what he would bring, vs paying a premium for Williams, who I don't think brings what we really need.

 

Also, there are a lot of H/W/S prospects in this year's draft, so that influences my opinion of Williams' FA value.

[throwing BBZ]

39 minutes ago, DougDew said:

TY's value is his deep threat.  That's what opens up his catches underneath, as well as not being constantly double teamed.  Williams as #2 can also provide a deep threat which could help TY but also help an underneath athlete YAC WR, who is currently not on the roster.  Catch the ball short and use athleticism to get YAC.  When TY gets hurt, Williams can still provide a deep threat.

 

Williams has value, but its not really different than how TY provides value.

 

If we sign Williams, we still need the reliable underneath WR, IMO.  

 

Do you draft a Williams clone at 26 or 34, then look for a FA YAC WR (who's available)?   Or is it easier to sign Williams and find an underneath YAC WR in the draft, maybe at #58?  I think the latter option is better.

 

Then we'll have three good WRs.  And possibly a #1 to take over for TY in a few years.

 

 

 Excellent. 
 They will have a solid plan to get Reich the type of weapons he needs to exploit D's. 
 We are in Superb position to at least hit 5-6 big needs with great effect.

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

We supposed to just go pick a WR off a tree. This is guy is probably the best WR our their in FA. The coaches know what he can do. Trust them.

We supposed to just go pick a WR off a tree. This is guy is probably the best WR our their in FA. The coaches know what he can do. Trust them

 

No they can't just pluck a WR off a tree....but there are certainly other ways of addressing WR without having to overpay Williams. Williams being the best WR (debatable for sure) is a product of a weak FA group of WRs. I know the Colts have a ton of cap space...but value still certainly matters.

 

Of course I trust the coaches. But these other coaches also must have thought Ryan Grant was a suitable choice as a WR2...so they aren't automatically correct.

 

But that's all beside the point. They haven't signed him yet. This is all just speculation. If they did sign him...then I will give them the benefit of the doubt and judge it based on the deal and other moves they make. But for now, I am just not a huge fan of the idea on the surface.

 

But I am a huge fan of the WRs in this draft. So if the Colts signed Williams AND went for a couple of WRs in rounds 2-4...awesome. I just don't see that happening.

 

 

 

 

[Superman]

9 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Where to start?

 

You asked one question at the start.    I answered it.

 

And in your post here,  you've brought numerous other arguments that I never raised.   Not in my posts to you or anywhere else.    I've not mentioned Williams height, weight or speed.  (though I personally like all those qualities)   I've ONLY dealt with one thing.    His results.

 

You'll see throughout this thread that I have repeatedly said I'm fine with whichever FA WR we bring in.   Yes, I'm assuming we'll go for one of the Big Three.   I recognize that this coaching staff and front office know what will fit best in their system.   A deep threat,  or a move the chains type of receiver.

 

But when you literally asked what does Williams do that Humphries and Tate don't,  I couldn't believe my eyes.     Isn't the answer clear and obvious?

 

All the other issues that you focused on are issues that other posters are raising.   I'm not.   I was hoping you and I would just focus on what you asked and what I answered.    Feels like I got lumped in with everyone else.     

 

To everything else....   If Ballard signs Williams when he could've signed either of the other two,  then I assume he values a deep threat.    But if the bidding gets too pricey and he signs one of the other two,  then I assume he's comfortable with a possession guy and our WR draft pick will be more of a deep threat that we will groom.

I'm good with whatever decision, Ballard and Reich want to go in.    They know better than I.

 

Personally,  I'm trying to keep it simple.    Deep threat or move the chains?    I think much of the other next gen stats can get a little overwhelming and result in a little too much paralysis by over analysis. 

 

Sorry if this got too dramatic for you.    Consider it sort of a backhanded compliment.    Since I hold you in the highest regard,  you're held to the highest standard.    I think the question you asked was not like your normal thought process.    I was....   (fill in with the adjective of your choice signifying "badly confused".)

 

Hope this clarifies things.....

 

Maybe what you weren't considering is that I was trying to point out throughout this thread that Williams being big and fast isn't the only thing that matters. I wasn't lumping you in; the post you responded to was a response to someone else.

 

I'm still not lumping you in, because you actually brought something other than his size and speed to the discussion, as have others.

 

The Next Gen stuff can be a bit much (and some of it is highly subjective, like YAC+), but just like your yards per catch stat shows Williams is a better deep threat, the Next Gen stuff shows other receivers are better at creating separation and getting yards after the catch.

 

So again, it comes back to what the Colts offense needs in a complementary receiver, and how best to acquire said receiver. 

 

End of the day, that's absolutely up to Reich and Ballard, and they might very well think differently from me regarding what the offense needs, and the value of the players available. But I'm pretty sure their analysis of Williams -- and any other prospect -- will go deeper than 'he's big and fast, pay him whatever he wants,' which is the narrative I was pushing back on earlier in this thread.

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Have any of you seen that they are getting ready to pay tyreek Hill a record breaking contract. They said it could be 20 m a year. I don’t think we would be over paying  Williams. We would need to redo Hilton’s contact though so he is the highest paid.

[CR91]

Just now, Chloe6124 said:

Have any of you seen that they are getting ready to pay tyreek Hill a record breaking contract. They said it could be 20 m a year. I don’t think we would be over paying  Williams. We would need to redo Hilton’s contact though so he is the highest paid.

 

That doesn't surprise me. Hill is like throwing bombs to randy moss in madden 2004. Instant TD

[shasta519]

32 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The bolded is why I prefer Humphries, and I've been saying that for a while now. Not that I don't like Williams, but I think the intermediate, YAC, quick separation would be more valuable to us. So in contrast, I'd rather pay Humphries a premium at $10m/year because I value what he would bring, vs paying a premium for Williams, who I don't think brings what we really need.

 

Also, there are a lot of H/W/S prospects in this year's draft, so that influences my opinion of Williams' FA value.

 

Agree. I see a lot of H/W/S guys in this upcoming draft.

 

If we are looking at that type of player...I think I would rather roll the dice on Devante Parker and his upside (when he gets released) than commit a premium contract to Williams.

 

But I do think they need some immediate help (this scenario was a big reason I wanted a WR in last year's draft)...I just don't know what that is. There is also the trade market to be considered.

 

 

[richard pallo]

16 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Have any of you seen that they are getting ready to pay tyreek Hill a record breaking contract. They said it could be 20 m a year. I don’t think we would be over paying  Williams. We would need to redo Hilton’s contact though so he is the highest paid.

The WR market is going to be reset very soon with the Hill deal.  Williams will be getting paid what he's worth in the current WR market.  He will have plenty of suitors.  We will not be overpaying we will be paying market value. 

[#12.]

I like the "make them defend every blade of grass" mentality.  Have different types, sizes of receivers, different skill sets among the backs and TEs.  Be able to do it all, and I think that's what Frank is going for.  A big receiver who can win on the outside would be nice to have.  

[LJpalmbeacher2]

I'm not going to pretend I know much about Williams since I didn't really watch much of charger games. But like you said, the article also implied he's fast and a outside WR which I like.

[Fluke_33]

15 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

#bang4buck

Please no more kraft posts

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Browns also have interest in Williams.

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

If we do not do not sign Williams, Adam Humphries is a guy I would love to have. He could be our Edelman. If we get either guy, we would not have to draft a WR.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

If we do not do not sign Williams, Adam Humphries is a guy I would love to have. He could be our Edelman. If we get either guy, we would not have to draft a WR.

Yep at least this year we wouldn’t. They are both young enough that they could be here for years. Looks like Humphries is just starting to come into his own.  

 

 

[Hoose]

13 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

If we do not do not sign Williams, Adam Humphries is a guy I would love to have. He could be our Edelman. If we get either guy, we would not have to draft a WR.

I agree that signing Williams or Humphries would be a good thing. I disagree about not drafting a WR if they snag a good FA.  The Colts need to build for the future while also shoring up their weak WR corps with a veteran. I hope they take a WR Day 2, and I don't care where. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, Hoose said:

I agree that signing Williams or Humphries would be a good thing. I disagree about not drafting a WR if they snag a good FA.  The Colts need to build for the future while also shoring up their weak WR corps with a veteran. I hope they take a WR Day 2, and I don't care where. 

I still wouldn't mind drafting a WR in the later rounds if we sign Williams or Humphries but I am for bringing Inman back as well.

[Hoose]

If they can get Inman back at a realistic value, I totally agree. He would be a key depth piece. 

[Dark Superman]

Give me Adam Humphries and draft a WR in the early rounds of the draft and I'll take it. I honestly feel whoever we draft at WR could easily be better than Tyrell Williams and a hell of a lot cheaper. Just my two cents.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

8 minutes ago, DarkSuperman said:

Give me Adam Humphries and draft a WR in the early rounds of the draft and I'll take it. I honestly feel whoever we draft at WR could easily be better than Tyrell Williams and a hell of a lot cheaper. Just my two cents.

Better? It is rare a WR comes in and makes a impact right away. At least not enough of a impact to take the double teams off of TY. There is a couple WR that might but they are going early.

 

My big question with Humphries is doesnt Doyle already kind of play that position but as a tight end. He kind of plays that middle of the field receiver. Not sure a Humphries will help take the pressure off of TY. We need a deep threat and Cain is still a unknown.

 

 

[RNGDShobby]

Realistically, we have Hilton, Pascal, Cain and Fountain guaranteed to be on the roster this year.

Rogers is a RFA but I think they will try and bring him back. Grant is all but gone.

If we get a WR in FA and one in the draft, thats 7 WR.

Inman could come back on a cheap deal (he shot himself in the foot a bit saying he wants to end his career in Indy).

Thats a very solid WR room IMO. I'd be happy with any of Williams, Humphries or Tate as the FA WR because it's not likely to be a long contract anyway with all the young guys (hopefully) coming through.

[Dark Superman]

1 minute ago, Chloe6124 said:

Better? It is rare a WR comes in and makes a impact right away. At least not enough of a impact to take the double teams off of TY. There is a couple WR that might but they are going early.

 

My big question with Humphries is doesnt Doyle already kind of play that position but as a tight end. He kind of plays that middle of the field receiver. Not sure a Humphries will help take the pressure off of TY. We need a deep threat and Cain is still a unknown.

 

 

I didn't mean "better' day 1, but have a much higher ceiling and will be better than Williams with time and experience.

Williams completely disappeared in the playoffs which really turned me off from the guy.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

28 minutes ago, DarkSuperman said:

I didn't mean "better' day 1, but have a much higher ceiling and will be better than Williams with time and experience.

Williams completely disappeared in the playoffs which really turned me off from the guy.

Well we need a receiver to come in and play now. We don’t have two years to see if someone can develop and play.

 Remember it’s a team game. I don’t know what happened in the playoffs but so many factors go into that. 

[richard pallo]

2 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

Browns also have interest in Williams.

 

 

If you were Williams and the money was about the same and you want to play on a SB contending team would you rather have Luck as your QB and play home games in a dome or would you rather have Mayfield as your QB and play home games outdoors in a cold weather city?   No need to answer. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

12 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

If you were Williams and the money was about the same and you want to play on a SB contending team would you rather have Luck as your QB and play home games in a dome or would you rather have Mayfield as your QB and play home games outdoors in a cold weather city?   No need to answer. 

Yep. If the money is not a huge difference it’s a no brainer. It’s the same with the raiders who are interested. Why would you go play for a team that doesn’t even have a home. If I was a player the raiders would be a  no before I even knew what they were offering. Plus Williams knows the coaches here in Indy. To me if the colts want him if i was Williams I would say give me market value and I am yours. Though I know it doesn’t work that way.

[EastStreet]

Raiders will eventually be in Vegas, which is cool. But Indy is definitely > than Cleveland, for so many reasons. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

8 minutes ago, Irish YJ said:

Raiders will eventually be in Vegas, which is cool. But Indy is definitely > than Cleveland, for so many reasons. 

Vegas seems like a place a lot of NFL players could get in a lot of trouble. That will be interesting if they end up there.

[Dark Superman]

46 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Well we need a receiver to come in and play now. We don’t have two years to see if someone can develop and play.

 Remember it’s a team game. I don’t know what happened in the playoffs but so many factors go into that. 

We'll get guys that will come in and be able to take this offense to the next level either by Draft or Free Agency. I'm just not sold on Tyrell Williams being one of those guys.

[EastStreet]

12 minutes ago, DarkSuperman said:

We'll get guys that will come in and be able to take this offense to the next level either by Draft or Free Agency. I'm just not sold on Tyrell Williams being one of those guys.

 

I'm not either. I love his potential, his size, his speed, but 2018 was his 4th year, he was 3rd in receiving yards, 4th in catches (for the LACs). 

 

I mean he's definitely and upgrade to Rogers and Grant, but that's not saying much. Saw some articles that said he'd be the highest paid FA WR this year. I'm not familiar TBH with how LAC used him though. 

 

If we're going to go big in FA on a WR, I'd prefer it be with someone that was a proven #2 or better, not 3rd or 4th best on his team. IDK, perhaps it was just a product of LAC's O.

 

Anyway, I'm still on the train of drafting a WR with the #2, upgrading at WR in FA (just not paying though the nose), and continuing to develop Cain and Inman. 

 

But, like I've said from the start, if Luck likes him, I'm on board.

[DerekDiggler]

On 3/6/2019 at 11:32 AM, Jdubu said:

Well you can only carry so many wr’s. We have TY, Cain, Inman* Fountain, Rogers*, Johnson*, Ishmael* and if we take a high pick that’s just too many guys. We know TY, Cain and Inman, If signed, would be on the team, as well as that #26 or 34 pick. The team sounded very high on Johnson and his potential and at some point, you have to figure out whether you can coach up and develop your guys you brought in at the lower rounds and get them into a 2 or 3 receiver at the least. Are you of the belief the team would spend that much cap into another receiver that while pretty good, isn’t heart stopping. I’d tend to grow what we have and go after defense. All this is just my opinion and the team could surprise me. I’ll be fine with whatever they do though.  

Do you really think the Colts are going to take a WR that high in the draft?   I dont. You need a # 1 or #2  drafted WR or a big time FA when you have a so so QB or middle of the pact Qb.  When you have a stud like AL you can put good players out there and they will do very well.

 

This draft is going to be about the D.   I would go as far as to say I believe we will take an Olinman and a RB before we take WR unless there is one that has dropped and is too good to pass on.  Wr is not as big of a need as most of you think.   I believe that will be covered in FA as well as an edge rush in FA .   Ballard is going to draft BPA which is the smart thing to do. Drafting for need is dumb... just dumb.

[Valpo2004]

On 3/6/2019 at 11:58 AM, onebad150 said:

If gets 12M a year it won't be from the Colt's,   I must be the only one that likes Devin Funchess I think he has a lot of UP side and is way more affordable

 

 

No I like him too.  Hasn't lived up to his draft status but he seems to be criminally underrated.  

[Jdubu]

14 hours ago, DerekDiggler said:

Do you really think the Colts are going to take a WR that high in the draft?   I dont. You need a # 1 or #2  drafted WR or a big time FA when you have a so so QB or middle of the pact Qb.  When you have a stud like AL you can put good players out there and they will do very well.

 

This draft is going to be about the D.   I would go as far as to say I believe we will take an Olinman and a RB before we take WR unless there is one that has dropped and is too good to pass on.  Wr is not as big of a need as most of you think.   I believe that will be covered in FA as well as an edge rush in FA .   Ballard is going to draft BPA which is the smart thing to do. Drafting for need is dumb... just dumb.

I think your argument here was kind of mine. I pretty much said, grow our own guys we’ve taken and Re-sign Inman and the team would do well enough. In fact, I think I said this draft would likely be defense heavy. 

[creid]

On 3/6/2019 at 8:58 AM, onebad150 said:

If gets 12M a year it won't be from the Colt's,   I must be the only one that likes Devin Funchess I think he has a lot of UP side and is way more affordable

 

 

Really Funchess? What has Funchess ever done with 2 years as Carolinas #1? Absolutely nothing. I think we're all being a little to cheap here. Williams has the physical attributes a 1000 yard season under his belt. And thats with being behind Mike Williams and Keenan Allen. Oh ya and Antonio Gates and Hunter Henry. 

 

Is $12m really that much. Someone like moncreif got $7m did he not? Sammy watkins gets $16m. I'd rather pay a few extra million on a promising player entering his prime years then go bargain hunting for someone like Funchess. 

 

Obviously I can be wrong I'm no scout but I feel the reward would be worth the risk. Especially since we're in the cap situation we're in. 

[EastStreet]

19 hours ago, DerekDiggler said:

Do you really think the Colts are going to take a WR that high in the draft?   I dont. You need a # 1 or #2  drafted WR or a big time FA when you have a so so QB or middle of the pact Qb.  When you have a stud like AL you can put good players out there and they will do very well.

 

This draft is going to be about the D.   I would go as far as to say I believe we will take an Olinman and a RB before we take WR unless there is one that has dropped and is too good to pass on.  Wr is not as big of a need as most of you think.   I believe that will be covered in FA as well as an edge rush in FA .   Ballard is going to draft BPA which is the smart thing to do. Drafting for need is dumb... just dumb.

If we look back at history (Colts History), even with a HoFer like Manning, we needed both Harrison and Wayne. 2001-2008 (when we had them both) were some of our best years. 2009 was great only because Clark was such a stud when Harrison left. 12-14 were good when we had both Wayne and TY.

 

And TY was an overachiever coming from the 3rd round. Even though I love TY, he's never approached the TD production of first rounders like Harrison or Wayne. 

 

So, very strong evidence that a team even with a HoF QB needs two stud WRs. TY would have been a #3 WR in the days we had Harrison and Wayne both running well.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I saw something interesting today. Sammy Watkins of the chiefs contract  is 48 million for 3 years.  They mentioned that Williams actually has had better production then him. It said don’t be surprised if he gets 12 million that would be pretty much market value.