Colts "Mount Rushmore" - NFL Network

[DaveA1102]

I was watching one the NFL Network's "Top 10" shows and it was the Top 10 "Mount Rushmore's" i.e. ranking the pillars of the franchise history (for example the Bears were Halas, Ditka, Singletary and Payton, etc).

 

Anyway, the Colts were #8 and were Unitas & Berry (from Baltimore era) and Manning and Harrison (from Indy era).  

 

This lead me to two questions I thought I would put to the Forum:

 

1. Do you consider the Baltimore and Indianapolis Colts history to be the same?  There is obviously a link but, as the move was before my time, I only ever think of the Indianapolis Colts as the team I follow.  (As an aside the "Mayflower" move was #1 on the Top 10 for "Biggest Betrayal"!)

 

2. I was surprised Berry was on the list, as I don't know much about him.  Is he right to be there and, if not, who would push for that 4th spot? Edge? Reggie?  Sanders?

 

I can't remember the full list but the top 5 were:

 

1: 49ers - Lott, Rice, Montana, Walsh

2: Packers - Lombardi, Favre, Starr, Hutson

3: Cowboys - Landry, Staubach, Smith, Aikman

4: Patriots - Belichick, Brady, Hannah, Gronk

5: Steelers - Noll, Bradshaw, Harris, Greene

[#12.]

It's the same history.  Plenty of teams have moved and no one splits up their history.  No one separates the Brooklyn Dodgers from the LA Dodgers, the NY Giants from the San Francisco Giants.  The St. Louis era Rams are not looked at as a different franchise.  Are the LA Chargers a new franchise?  No.

[Barry Sears]

I think the 4 for the Colts is correct.  Raymond Berry was the first "superstar" WR.  He and Unitas hooked up for a lot of touchdowns and sort of pioneered the downfield passing attack that was later adopted by the rest of the league.

 

They were the earlier version of Manning to Harrison.

 

I also agree that Colts history includes Baltimore and Indianapolis.  It's the franchise history, not just one city.

[#12.]

It appears they are essentially going with team success those rankings.  If you simply add up the combined greatness of four players or coaches, you would have a different ranking. 

 

Aaron Rodgers should be on the Packers' Mount Rushmore.

[buccolts]

For the most part, those who don't recognize the Baltimore era are:

- Younger, and/or

- From the Indianapolis region, and/or

- Manning fans, and/or

- Luck fans, and/or

 

Not all, but I'd guess most.

 

Oh, and regarding the 'Biggest Betrayal' Top 10, yeah, the move from Baltimore should be #1. What Baltimore was going to do to the Colts/Irsay's wasn't right.

[Fluke_33]

6 minutes ago, buccolts said:

For the most part, those who don't recognize the Baltimore era are:

- Younger, and/or

- From the Indianapolis region, and/or

- Manning fans, and/or

- Luck fans, and/or

 

Not all, but I'd guess most.

 

 

I became a fan in 1990 so didn't know Baltimore but i read and recommend two books:

Fatso by Art Donovan

My story and i'm sticking to it by Alex hawkins

 

Both really good and great anecdotes of the colts.  

[NewEra]

Most who wouldn't recognize them as the same are older, bitter Baltimore fans

[Myles]

20 minutes ago, #12. said:

It's the same history.  Plenty of teams have moved and no one splits up their history.  No one separates the Brooklyn Dodgers from the LA Dodgers, the NY Giants from the San Francisco Giants.  The St. Louis era Rams are not looked at as a different franchise.  Are the LA Chargers a new franchise?  No.

Well, there is the Browns who were allowed to keep their history with a different team.

[#12.]

7 minutes ago, buccolts said:

For the most part, those who don't recognize the Baltimore era are:

- Younger, and/or

- From the Indianapolis region, and/or

- Manning fans, and/or

- Luck fans, and/or

 

Not all, but I'd guess most.

 

 

 

Over the years, it's mainly been current Baltimore fans protesting it, claiming it's part of the Ravens' history.  Irsay sort of went along with that at times, which I felt was a mistake.  He said he didn't want to ruffle any feathers by openly claiming the history.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

My Indianapolis Colts Mt Rushmore would be:

Peyton/Marvin/Freeney/Reggie

 

If it's Indy/Baltimore Colts my Mt Rushmore:

Peyton/Unitas/Marvin/ Freeney

 

-When Freeney was out vs the Chargers in the 2007 Playoffs and in the 2009 SB vs the Saints we weren't the same Defensively. Freeney was a such a game changing Defensive End his whole career. He is the best Defensive player in Colts history playing the most important position on D, so he has to be on our Mt Rushmore.

[King Colt]

Unitas > Berry > Matte > Ameche 

[Myles]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

My Indianapolis Colts Mt Rushmore would be:

Peyton/Marvin/Freeney/Reggie

 

If it's Indy/Baltimore Colts my Mt Rushmore:

Peyton/Unitas/Marvin/ Freeney

 

-When Freeney was out vs the Chargers in the 2007 Playoffs and in the 2009 SB vs the Saints we weren't the same Defensively. Freeney was a such a game changing Defensive End his whole career. He is the best Defensive player in Colts history playing the most important position on D, so he has to be on our Mt Rushmore.

I think it has to be 2-2.   2 from each era.  

[#12.]

1 minute ago, Myles said:

Well, there is the Browns who were allowed to keep their history with a different team.

 

That was a condition for the move, and the Browns returned three years later, so that's a little different.  

 

Now, when a team moves and changes names - Oilers to the Titans - the public perception is different.

[Myles]

3 minutes ago, King Colt said:

Unitas > Berry > Matte > Ameche 

While all deserving, Manning and Harrison need to be on there.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Myles said:

I think it has to be 2-2.   2 from each era.  

If that is the case I would go:

Peyton/Marvin/Unitas/Marchetti

 

-Marchetti was Freeney in his era.

[Myles]

Just now, #12. said:

 

That was a condition for the move, and the Browns returned three years later, so that's a little different.  

 

Now, when a team moves and changes names - Oilers to the Titans - the public perception is different.

Do the Titans have the Oilers history?

[buccolts]

6 minutes ago, Myles said:

I think it has to be 2-2.   2 from each era.  

 

Well, it doesn't HAVE to be, but fans may swing one way or the other based on their experiences.

Both eras stand to be slighted, as there were plenty of great players in both eras.

[Fluke_33]

1 minute ago, Myles said:

I think it has to be 2-2.   2 from each era.  

For the indy era, Marvin is clearly the #2 and only to manning.   

 

I don't know if berry is in comparison to marchetti but im only going by what ive read and not seeing any games.  Marchetti sounds like a beast though.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Fluke_33 said:

For the indy era, Marvin is clearly the #2 and only to manning.   

 

I don't know if berry is in comparison to marchetti but im only going by what ive read and not seeing any games.  Marchetti sounds like a beast though.  

Yeah when I went 2 and 2 I had to take Marv over Freeney but Marchetti made my #2 on the Balt side.

[#12.]

1 minute ago, Myles said:

Do the Titans have the Oilers history?

 

Yes.  In fact, they were the Tennessee Oilers for two years - one year in Memphis, one in Nashville.

[Myles]

7 minutes ago, #12. said:

 

That was a condition for the move, and the Browns returned three years later, so that's a little different.  

 

Now, when a team moves and changes names - Oilers to the Titans - the public perception is different.

Let's muddy it up more.    The Baltimore Colts were at one time the Dallas Texans.  

 

So who owns that history?   Dallas, Houston Texans or Indianapolis Colts. 

[buccolts]

8 minutes ago, Myles said:

Let's muddy it up more.    The Baltimore Colts were at one time the Dallas Texans.  

 

So who owns that history?   Dallas, Houston Texans or Indianapolis Colts. 

 

The Colts.....and each town has their memories.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just Baltimore Colts should be IMO:

Unitas/Marchetti/Berry/Mackey

 

Just Indy Colts:

Peyton/Marvin/Freeney/Reggie

[#12.]

10 minutes ago, Myles said:

Let's muddy it up more.    The Baltimore Colts were at one time the Dallas Texans.  

 

So who owns that history?   Dallas, Houston Texans or Indianapolis Colts. 

 

From what I read, the Dallas Texans folded, so it's not the same franchise.  The Colts never claimed it.

 

The NFL awarded the Colts their assets and some of the players.

 

[Myles]

2 minutes ago, #12. said:

 

From what I read, the Dallas Texans folded, so it's not the same franchise.  The Colts never claimed it.

 

It's where our colors came from.   

 

NFL Dallas Texans

After two seasons without professional football, NFL Commissioner Bert Bell, (1895-1959), challenged the City of Baltimore under Mayor Thomas L. J. D'Alesandro Jr., (1903–1987), in December 1952 to sell 15,000 season tickets within six weeks in order to re-enter the NFL. That 15,000-ticket quota was reached in just four weeks and three days. On January 23, 1953, with the encouragement of the city's civic and business leadership, under the principal ownership of Carroll Rosenbloom, (1907-1979), the NFL sold Dallas Texans franchise to Baltimore where, keeping the "Colts" nickname, the Texans team colors of blue and white were inherited. This is the franchise that exists today in Indianapolis in the modern National Football League.[2]

[CamMo]

51 minutes ago, #12. said:

It's the same history.  Plenty of teams have moved and no one splits up their history.  No one separates the Brooklyn Dodgers from the LA Dodgers, the NY Giants from the San Francisco Giants.  The St. Louis era Rams are not looked at as a different franchise.  Are the LA Chargers a new franchise?  No.

 

Younger fan here. Never thought of it this way. But right you are. 

 

Wish I could connect more to the Unitas era Colts. That’s Peyton and Harrison for me.

[#12.]

From the Dallas Texans wiki:

 

The NFL was unable to find a buyer for the Texans, and folded the team after the 1952 season. A few months later, the NFL granted a new franchise to a Baltimore-based ownership group headed by Baltimorean Carroll Rosenbloom, and awarded it the remaining assets (including the players) of the failed Texans operation.[7] Rosenbloom named his new team the Baltimore Colts, (after the previous team playing for the city in the competing All-America Football Conference, which merged with the NFL in 1950)

The Colts (later based in Indianapolis since 1984) do not claim the history of the earlier Yanks/Bulldogs/Yanks/Texans as their own, even though the Colts' 1953 first roster included many of the previous 1952 Texans. Likewise, the NFL also reckons the new Colts as a 1953 expansion team;[7] it does not consider the Colts to be a continuation of the Yanks/Bulldogs/Yanks/Texans franchise, or even the Dayton Triangles for that matter considering that other franchise's successor, the Brooklyn Dodgers/Tigers, merged with the Yanks in 1945. As a result, the Texans officially today remain as the last NFL team to permanently cease operations and not be included in the lineage of any current franchise team.

[Blueblood23]

44 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

If that is the case I would go:

Peyton/Marvin/Unitas/Marchetti

 

-Marchetti was the machete in his day.

[MPStack]

I’ve followed both the Baltimore and Indianapolis Colts. Never have I considered them to be separate franchises with two different history’s. The Horeshoe has virtually never changed over the years and remains IMO, one of the best sports logos ever!

[coltsfansince65]

3 minutes ago, MPStack said:

I’ve followed both the Baltimore and Indianapolis Colts. Never have I considered them to be separate franchises with two different history’s. The Horeshoe has virtually never changed over the years and remains IMO, one of the best sports logos ever!

My sentiments exactly.

[Nesjan3]

Obviously there is no right or wrong answer set in stone. Some people choose to acknowledge the history together as one, some people choose to keep it seperate. Definitely an interesting "grey" area. I think just to keep it as simple as possible the same franchise should have the same history no matter where they move, but i personally know some old Baltimore Colts fans who say that the Baltimore Colts ENDED the day they moved. By no means do the Indy Colts inherit their history.

[NewEra]

I don't know much about football, but I did stay at a holiday inn express once...

[NewEra]

Just now, Nesjan3 said:

Obviously there is no right or wrong answer set in stone. Some people choose to acknowledge the history together as one, some people choose to keep it seperate. Definitely an interesting "grey" area. I think just to keep it as simple as possible the same franchise should have the same history no matter where they move, but i personally know some old Baltimore Colts fans who say that the Baltimore Colts ENDED the day they moved. By no means do the Indy Colts inherit their history.

Just because that's their opinion doesn't make it so. That's like saying my ex is dead to me after we broke up. But clearly she is still alive. 

[Myles]

17 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Just because that's their opinion doesn't make it so. That's like saying my ex is dead to me after we broke up. But clearly she is still alive. 

I have no issue with people choosing to believe their franchise started when it came to their city.   I don't think Unitas is on the Colts ring of honor.   

[John Waylon]

Total sidebar: 

 

Bert Jones never gets the respect he deserves. 

[crazycolt1]

For me personally I think the Baltimore and Indy Colts as one team.

With that said who cares?  This is a never ending debate with no definite answer. Either way no one is wrong no matter what your opinion is.

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, buccolts said:

For the most part, those who don't recognize the Baltimore era are:

- Younger, and/or

- From the Indianapolis region, and/or

- Manning fans, and/or

- Luck fans, and/or

 

Not all, but I'd guess most.

 

Oh, and regarding the 'Biggest Betrayal' Top 10, yeah, the move from Baltimore should be #1. What Baltimore was going to do to the Colts/Irsay's wasn't right.

Yeah, eminent domain is horse dung.

[ColtsBlueFL]

3 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

If that is the case I would go:

Peyton/Marvin/Unitas/Marchetti

 

-Marchetti was Freeney in his era.

 

 

They didn't keep D line stats back then (sacks, hit, etc...)

 

I'll Go with the P. Manning, J. Unitas, R. Berry, M. Harrison foursome.

 

My next level would be -

 

D. Freeney, G. Marchetti, R. Wayne, Bubba Smith. (HM: R. Mathis)

[NewEra]

The colts are the colts, with a shared history In Baltimore and Indianapolis. No other way to put it. Same team, different locations. They can be butt hurt all they want about leaving (as would I) but does t change the facts

[rockywoj]

I’ve been a dedicated Colts fan since ‘67 and for me, I’d choose ...

 

Unitas, Bert Jones, Manning, & Harrison.  My 2nd wave would be Lydell Mitchell, Reggie Wayne, Edgerin James, & Dwight Freeney.  Honorable mentions to Robert Mathis & Bob Sanders.

 

I’m hoping that with time, Luck & TY might get there.  Maybe even Quentin Nelson, Malik Hooker, Darius Leonard, & Marlon Mack ... wouldn’t that be nice!