Pagano was 63-53 in 6 years

[oldunclemark]

..He was celebrated after the Colts win Sunday and they gave him the game ball..

Our players loved him

 

Sometimes as fans we get a twisted perspective of the way things are.

Pagano was very popular and, when Andrew Luck was healthy, the team won...

We were 4-12 this year because Andrew didn't play, not because of any coaching.  

 

Does simply changing the coach mean we have more winning seasons.....?

 

 

 

 

 

[BOTT]

Does this really need to be rehashed for the 1000th time?  

[chad72]

Change at HC Does not change the fact that there is still a lot of work to be done with the roster. Once there is more talent infusion into the roster with a better head coach and play calling on both offense and defense to maximize what the team can do, I think the results will be better. That’s what the Colts management is betting on.

 

 

[oldunclemark]

2 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Does this really need to be rehashed for the 1000th time?  

Maybe not but the locker room Sunday has to make you wonder about what fans know..

.....Apparently there was no such outpouring of emotion in the other locker rooms of fired (or to be fired) coaches

 

Firing a winning coach who is loved by his players is a gamble

[BOTT]

Just now, oldunclemark said:

Maybe not but the locker room Sunday has to make you wonder about what fans know..

.....Apparently there was no such outpouring of emotion in the other locker rooms of fired (or to be fired) coaches

 

Firing a winning coach who is loved by his players is a gamble

 When the first thing you say about a coach is "the players love him" I can't take it seriously.  It's similar to telling a man a woman "has a great personality".

 

why am I rehashing this?

[oldunclemark]

48 minutes ago, BOTT said:

 When the first thing you say about a coach is "the players love him" I can't take it seriously.  It's similar to telling a man a woman "has a great personality".

 

why am I rehashing this?

Because its what we do....BOTT

Its what we'll do for the next 6 months....

Edited January 1, 2018 by oldunclemark

[lester]

Either Pagano's system, or his inability to hold his coordinators accountable to perform to his standard, led to the Colt's poor performance. The things he 'wanted' the team to do were incongruent with what the team was actually able to do - and he was unable to adjust. Ever. Players might have loved playing for him, but the Colts under his leadership did not game plan well (at all) and he personally did a poor job of managing the Xs and Os well enough in game situations. The Colts, with Chuck Pagano as the head coach were constant under achievers. That is why he is no longer the head coach.

[oldunclemark]

10 minutes ago, lester said:

Either Pagano's system, or his inability to hold his coordinators accountable to perform to his standard, led to the Colt's poor performance. The things he 'wanted' the team to do were incongruent with what the team was actually able to do - and he was unable to adjust. Ever. Players might have loved playing for him, but the Colts under his leadership did not game plan well (at all) and he personally did a poor job of managing the Xs and Os well enough in game situations. The Colts, with Chuck Pagano as the head coach were constant under achievers. That is why he is no longer the head coach.

yet..when healthy/..our team won....Id rather win and under achievement that seek a false  sense of excellence that, this last year, wasnt really possible..

Fans perspective is often 100% the opposite of players perspective and reality. Wins and losses matter.

 

We're moving on from a winning coach. ...agreed?

Edited January 1, 2018 by oldunclemark

[oldunclemark]

22 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Change at HC Does not change the fact that there is still a lot of work to be done with the roster. Once there is more talent infusion into the roster with a better head coach and play calling on both offense and defense to maximize what the team can do, I think the results will be better. 

 

Better than Chuck's first 3 years before Andrew was hurt?

Who could do that?

Bruce Arians

[chad72]

5 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Better than Chuck's first 3 years?

 

Maybe, maybe not. He got 3 more years from those first 3 years, right? 

 

I’m sure several coaches got let go after achieving winning seasons and getting to conference championship games too, like Dungy from Tampa, John Fox from Denver etc.

 

 

[oldunclemark]

10 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Maybe, maybe not. He got 3 more years from those first 3 years, right? 

 

I’m sure several coaches got let go after achieving winning seasons and conference championship games too, like Dungy from Tampa, John Fox from Denver etc.

 

 

 

 

That's a good point. Jim Caldwell, who led us to a Super Bowl,  would be a good example.

But it doesn't always work,. The Bears let old  Lovie Smith after a 10-6 and haven't been the same since.

 

What I'm saying is that firing a winning coach who is very popular with his team can have negative results. Be care ful what we wish for

Edited January 1, 2018 by oldunclemark

[chad72]

6 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

That's a good point. Jim Caldwell, who led us to a Super Bowl,  would be a good example.

But it doesn't always work,. The Bears let god Lovie Smith after a 10-6 and haven't been the same since.

 

What I'm saying is that firing a winning coach who is very popular with his team can have negative results

 

Thats where I feel Irsay and Ballard have a finger on the pulse of what this team needs for a re-set and have to trust them.

 

The elephant in the room is Andrew Luck’s health. Rex Ryan was super popular with his players too, but on the outside as a non -Jets fan, you could see the team was heading in the wrong direction. He had gone to 2 AFCCG in 2009 and 2010.

[IinD]

No one has gotten blown out more then us during his time. Gotta put that somewhere on the resume though.

 

Not good.

[oldunclemark]

1 minute ago, IinD said:

No one has gotten blown out more then us during his time. Gotta put that somewhere on the resume though.

 

Not good.

Not true....Our teams always played hard and a lot of games this year were close hen we were outmanned personell-wise

[BlueShoe]

40 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

..He was celebrated after the Colts win Sunday and they gave him the game ball..

Our players loved him

 

Sometimes as fans we get a twisted perspective of the way things are.

Pagano was very popular and, when Andrew Luck was healthy, the team won...

We were 4-12 this year because Andrew didn't play, not because of any coaching.  

 

Does simply changing the coach mean we have more winning seasons.....?

 

It is 2018, and we (collectively) still have a lynch mob mentality. 

[VaAllDay757]

It showed in 2014 that chuck wasn't a good coach in so this is based off of 3 seasons not just this one

[IinD]

Just now, oldunclemark said:

Not true....Our teams always played hard and a lot of games this year were close hen we were outmanned personell-wise

The blown out part is true though. We lead the leave in 20+ point losses over his tenure. That's all I was stating. That's a big reason he's gone as well.

[oldunclemark]

10 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Thats where I feel Irsay and Ballard have a finger on the pulse of what this team needs for a re-set and have to trust them.

 

The elephant in the room is Andrew Luck’s health.

Its Irsay and Ballard's call....no doubt....and maybe the time to change is now.

Next year's coach will have a winning team if Luck is healthy. I'd bet on it. I doesn't really matter who he is.

From a management standpoint, that's certainly a re-set

Edited January 1, 2018 by oldunclemark

[deedub75]

1 minute ago, oldunclemark said:

Not true....Our teams always played hard and a lot of games this year were close hen we were outmanned personell-wise

 

I don’t think they really played harder than any other team. They may have played hard but they didn’t play very well. 

[oldunclemark]

Just now, IinD said:

The blown out part is true though. We lead the leave in 20+ point losses over his tenure. That's all I was stating. That's a big reason he's gone as well.

How many I the first 3 years when Andrew was healthy. How many this year.

The idea that we were 4-12 due to coaching this year just isn't accurate

[oldunclemark]

1 minute ago, deedub75 said:

 

I don’t think they really played harder than any other team. They may have played hard but they didn’t play very well. 

It was coaching. It was injury. We all agree on that

What coach is coming in who will do better than 3 playoff berths in 6 years and a winning record without a starting QB 1/3 of the time?

That's the question

[oldunclemark]

3 minutes ago, deedub75 said:

 

I don’t think they really played harder than any other team. 

You didn't see the Giants...and the Bears......and the Raiders

 

We played harder than those teams almost every week

[csmopar]

55 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

..He was celebrated after the Colts win Sunday and they gave him the game ball..

Our players loved him

 

Sometimes as fans we get a twisted perspective of the way things are.

Pagano was very popular and, when Andrew Luck was healthy, the team won...

We were 4-12 this year because Andrew didn't play, not because of any coaching.  

 

Does simply changing the coach mean we have more winning seasons.....?

 

 

 

 

 

Let's let the numbers tell the story

 

0-9 against The Steelers and Patriots

 

outscored 223-91 in the 4th quarter this year

 

10 times the colts lead at the mid point of the 4th quarter this year, they won 3 of them, to the winless browns, the at the 0-3 49ers and the rudderless Houston Texans.

 

The most games being blown out by 20 points or more over the last 6 years. 10 of them with Andrew Luck at QB..... the next closest team had only 7 total..... 

 

numerous game mismanagements: the fake punt, the stupid challenges or lack there of...

 

failure to develop talent(name a drafted player out of those 6 years that is truly better today than he was when drafted)

 

 

Thats what got him fired. He could be the nicest guy on the planet but with results like those, even Dungy would have gotten canned

 

 

 

[oldunclemark]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

Let's let the numbers tell the story

 

0-9 against The Steelers and Patriots

 

outscored 223-91 in the 4th quarter this year

 

10 times the colts lead at the mid point of the 4th quarter this year, they won 3 of them, to the winless browns, the at the 0-3 49ers and the rudderless Houston Texans.

 

The most games being blown out by 20 points or more over the last 6 years. 10 of them with Andre Luck at QB..... the next closest team had only 7 total..... 

 

numerous game mismanagements: the fake punt, the stupid challenges or lack there of...

 

failure to develop talent(name a drafted player out of those 6 years that is truly better today than he was when drafted)

 

 

Thats what got him fired. He could be the nicest guy on the planet but with results like those, even Dungy would have gotten canned

 

 

 

3 playoff berths with a young team in 2012, 2013, 2014.

2017. Vince Lombardi could not have done better with our injuries and remaining personell.

 

But, as I know you remember, when Andrew Luck played, we won and made the playoffs.

We're moving on from a winning coach, is the point. It can get worse. Ask the Bears since Lovie Smith left.

 

Wins and losses matter

 

 

[WoolMagnet]

53 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Maybe not but the locker room Sunday has to make you wonder about what fans know..

.....Apparently there was no such outpouring of emotion in the other locker rooms of fired (or to be fired) coaches

 

Firing a winning coach who is loved by his players is a gamble

Agree 100%.

however, Pagano , for whatever reason, couldnt dot the "I"s ans cross the "T"s.  Being successful consistently is in the details.  Game planning, preparation, game management, etc.  it didnt seem like this was chuck's forte. 

When peyton was here, HE kept everyone on edge and "nervous".

we really dont have that guy as a player or coach now it seems.  Id like it to be Ballard, but the coach has to set the tone.

  This reminds me of Reggie going to NE after we let him go.  He didnt last and said it "wasnt fun."  Well, hard work to be the best isnt always fun. That comment, more than any other told me the main difference between NE and INDY.  

There is no nonsense and no excuses in NE.  Maybe a lil cheating, but no excuses.  

Playing in the NFL is still a job.  A VERY well paying one at that.

[Smonroe]

It’s time to move on.  

 

That being said, the comments every week that blamed every failed play on Pagano were ridiculously immature.  Most people have no clue about coaching, and have never played other than Madden.  They know nothing about scheme, or even player responsibility.  

 

Payton had a losing record three years in a row, with his franchise QB.  Yet excuses were made every year for him.  

 

The other side of this coin is that Chuck took bad teams further than they should have.  But it’s a moot point now.  

 

So it’s time to move on and stop the childish, inane degradations of a pretty good coach.  

[gacoop1]

I agree with "lester" his coordinators we'rent being held accountable. You need a coach that'll get in your face and correct your mistakes, that's why the Patriots are going to win another SB.  

[csmopar]

31 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

3 playoff berths with a young team in 2012, 2013, 2014.

2017. Vince Lombardi could not have done better with our injuries and remaining personell.

 

But, as I know you remember, when Andrew Luck played, we won and made the playoffs.

We're moving on from a winning coach, is the point. It can get worse. Ask the Bears since Lovie Smith left.

 

Wins and losses matter

 

 

Yeah they do. But let's face it, 18 of those wins came against the Texans, Titans and Jags,  who for all of those years, were hapless , Texans started getting decent, we started splitting games with them, with Andrew Luck at the helm. And if you wanna get technical, Pagano only had 2 seasons at 11-5, not 3. Arians coached the first year 15 games, the one Pagano coached was a loss. Why Pagano gets credit for that season is beyond me. 

 

Were there high points to Chuck Pagano being our coach, absolutely.  Was he a terrible coach? Absolutely not.  He's average. Problem is, average only goes so far .

 

head coaches are like military leaders. I've been in the Army for 14 years. I've seen many leaders, but not many good leaders.  Of those good leaders, there's only 2 I'd have no hesitations about following into combat or into hell and back.  They were masters of not only personell but tactically as well. I've had several leaders who were great behind the scenes tactically but they acted like they didn't care about the grunts doing the work. Tactics were great  but put them in charge of a mission and yikes, it crumbles. I've had several leaders who were great with the soldiers, great motivators that made you want to do good for them and work hard for them. But again, put those leaders under pressure during a mission and they are so so at best. Chuck Pagano from this outsider looking in appears to be in that last category. He's a great motivator, great with his people but when the games got tough, he had no toughness and yesterday's water works proved it

[Smoke317]

You’re giving Pagano way too many wins & losses or are you counting preseason games?  I’ve got him with:

 

year 1: 11-5.   0-1 in playoffs

year 2: 11-5.   1-1 in playoffs

year 3: 11-5.   2-1 in playoffs. 

Year 4:  8-8.   No playoffs. 

Year 5:  8-8.   No playoffs. 

Year 6: 4-12.  No playoffs. 

 

Add all that up and I come with a record of 56-46.  Still well above .500. But I do think coaching is the big cause of our sub par record this year.  We had too many leads and could never make the necessary adjustments to close those wins out.  And it’s in those in game adjustments where Chuck and his staff failed miserably. 

[Blueblood23]

51 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Let's let the numbers tell the story

 

0-9 against The Steelers and Patriots

 

outscored 223-91 in the 4th quarter this year

 

10 times the colts lead at the mid point of the 4th quarter this year, they won 3 of them, to the winless browns, the at the 0-3 49ers and the rudderless Houston Texans.

 

The most games being blown out by 20 points or more over the last 6 years. 10 of them with Andrew Luck at QB..... the next closest team had only 7 total..... 

 

numerous game mismanagements: the fake punt, the stupid challenges or lack there of...

 

failure to develop talent(name a drafted player out of those 6 years that is truly better today than he was when drafted)

 

 

Thats what got him fired. He could be the nicest guy on the planet but with results like those, even Dungy would have gotten canned

 

 

 

And he was instrumental in drafting TJ Green.

[RockThatBlue]

I have never understood the argument of "The players love him"

 

Players also loved Rex Ryan too...

 

That doesn't mean they are a good coach.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, VaAllDay757 said:

It showed in 2014 that chuck wasn't a good coach in so this is based off of 3 seasons not just this one

In 2014 the Colts went 11-5 and lost to the Pats in the AFC Championship game. A bad coach would have never done what he did in 2014.

[oldunclemark]

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

In 2014 the Colts went 11-5 and lost to the Pats in the AFC Championship game. A bad coach would have never done what he did in 2014.

we made the playoffs with 6 rookies starters in 2012....

...a bad coach couldnt have done that.

[oldunclemark]

23 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

I have never understood the argument of "The players love him"

 

Players also loved Rex Ryan too...

 

That doesn't mean they are a good coach.

But its not a real-world argument against some one in a  leadership position...

2 choices..players like the coach and they win

Players dont like the coach and they lose.

Your choice.

 

Players play harder for a coach they like and we saw that this past season.

To argue for the virtue of an unlikable coach over a likable one, all things being equal, is .........off

 

[deedub75]

46 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

3 playoff berths with a young team in 2012, 2013, 2014.

2017. Vince Lombardi could not have done better with our injuries and remaining personell.

 

But, as I know you remember, when Andrew Luck played, we won and made the playoffs.

We're moving on from a winning coach, is the point. It can get worse. Ask the Bears since Lovie Smith left.

 

Wins and losses matter

 

 

 

Lombardi could have done just as well or better playing in the AFC South with Luck as his QB.  Chuck was a mediocre coach with a really good QB in a bad division. His record outside of the division left a lot to be desired. His record against the two premier teams in the AFC was abysmal. The only difference between him and Caldwell is that he showed emotion on the field while Caldwell didn’t. Their coaching careers are almost mirror images of each other and they are now both unemployed. 

 

I am glad he’s gone and I can’t make a single argument for keeping him.  I don’t have any ill will towards him but I’m glad he’s gone. 

[oldunclemark]

10 minutes ago, deedub75 said:

 

Lombardi could have done just as well or better playing in the AFC South with Luck as his QB.  Chuck was a mediocre coach with a really good QB in a bad division. His record outside of the division left a lot to be desired. His record against the two premier teams in the AFC was abysmal. The only difference between him and Caldwell is that he showed emotion on the field while Caldwell didn’t. Their coaching careers are almost mirror images of each other and they are now both unemployed. 

 

I am glad he’s gone and I can’t make a single argument for keeping him.  I don’t have any ill will towards him but I’m glad he’s gone. 

Pagano and Caldwell were good coaches....Pagano won more than he lost.

No one is a mirror image of anyone else. That's simple-minded

Everyone's record against premier teams is bad because they are....well...premier teams...

 

You'll want the next coach gone by October. That's the way we are

[Smonroe]

28 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

I have never understood the argument of "The players love him"

 

Players also loved Rex Ryan too...

 

That doesn't mean they are a good coach.

 

Youre right, it doesn’t mean they’re a good coach.  But it does mean guys will give more for a coach they respect.

 

Did you ever play?  When you respect your coach, be it position, coordinator, or HC, you don’t want to disappoint him.  You may not be as talented as the guy across from you but you do everything you can do win the play.  

 

It’s a huge factor for a successful HC.  Just not the only one.  

[deedub75]

8 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Pagano and Caldwell were good coaches....Pagano won more than he lost.

No one is a mirror image of anyone else. That's simple-minded

Everyone's record against premier teams is bad because they are....well...premier teams...

 

You'll want the next coach gone by October. That's the way we are

 

They were both mediocre coaches which is why they were both just fired. Pagano’s teams were never even competitive against the Patriots and Steelers. If the new coach turns out to be mediocre then in 4 years he should be gone too. 

[BOTT]

52 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

But its not a real-world argument against some one in a  leadership position...

2 choices..players like the coach and they win

Players dont like the coach and they lose.

Your choice.

 

Players play harder for a coach they like and we saw that this past season.

To argue for the virtue of an unlikable coach over a likable one, all things being equal, is .........off

 

Ask ex cowboy players who they liked better, Barry Switzer or Jimmy Johnson. Next, ask them who the played harder for.

[George Peterson]

2 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

It was coaching. It was injury. We all agree on that

What coach is coming in who will do better than 3 playoff berths in 6 years and a winning record without a starting QB 1/3 of the time?

That's the question

 

Well there was a team that lost their QB for one third of the season and nearly won out when he got back... but we don't like to think about them.

 

Personally I'd love to see the Colts pick up Matt Patricia but I don't see it happening.  McDaniels has name brand players on offense, especially the QB.  Patricia is stringing together a bunch of nobodies and learning at the feet of a guy who was a heck of a DC and is probably the greatest coach in the game today.