The Colts are basically Cleveland in talent level-with Luck

[jshipp23]

14 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

You should pay more respect to nuance. I'm obviously not arguing that we don't have any talent, especially on offense. I am saying that we don't have 'one of the most talented offenses, without Luck.' The fact that we barely manage 18 points/game without him is a testament to that.

I hear ya..I also remember us marching up and down the field on Steelers with Tolzien..We kept going for it on 4th so points didn't show, but we played with them in my opinion...I guess I don't think we are that far away...Why I really wanted a coaching change now while we have an excuse to do it..We could go 12-4 next year even with Pagano, but I think a great coach could make a huge difference..More than Lack of talent I think it's a just coaching issue , playcalling issue..All I can do now is hope the coaching improves and we make good decisions in draft and free agency..I don't think we are years away, 1 good offseason, a bounce of the ball here or there, less injuries and we could be in the conversation...As far as the 18 points a game argument, that was more a product of slowing the game down and taking smaller chunks since Hassellbeck couldn't really run the air coryell offense, wasn't because of lack of offensive talent...If you take the starting qb of any team they will struggle to score and it is a number of factors including lack of cohesion and practice time with new qb, different philosophy to try to win by slowing the game down, familiarity and timing..Not necessarily lack of talent...I don't think our defense is the worst either, injuries to a lot of our key players and young players learning under a new d coodinator all contributed to our struggles..All this talk about lack of talent is uninformed , but just  my opinion..

[Andrew Luck fan club]

Anyone who says we have more talent on D than Cleveland is just wrong. Obviously the offense has more talent, it's all we've focused on for years. 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

1 hour ago, braveheartcolt said:

Based on what? Stop making stuff up. We know you want them gone, but chucking out stupid comparisons like this is making you look silly.

 

 

Actually, I'd say its you that is looking silly.

But if you think highly of our braintrust, by all means go on thinking it.

[Dustin]

22 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

How many players on the Patriots would you say are considered "above average"

 

Brady

Gronkowski

Edelman

Solder

Vollmer

Butler

Blount

Bennett 

Dion Lewis

Hightower

McCourty 

Brown

 

So 12.

 

 

 

 

[braveheartcolt]

32 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher said:

 

Actually, I'd say its you that is looking silly.

But if you think highly of our braintrust, by all means go on thinking it.

You 'anti-gang' really need to stop defending flawed arguments with your equally flawed statements. I'll repeat for the dozenth time, I'm no fan of our 'braintrust', I'm just less of a fan of relentlless repetitive childish made up arguments to further the bellyaching. And me looking silly is not an unusual event, so you got that bit right. 

 

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, jshipp23 said:

If we have no talent other than Luck how do we go 6-3? Great coaching lol? Great defensive talent? It can't go both ways...We should have been 12-4 this year we literally gave 4 games away by bad coaching ....Not possible if we don't have talent...

 

The defense from TWO YEARS AGO is gone.

 

I don't know why you don't know this?     Do you see anyone on on this website claiming otherwise?    No.

 

Just you.

 

We are ranked roughly 30th on defense.     The NFL has 32 teams.    Do the math.

 

As for the coaching -- Hell yes,  that's what carried us during the stretch that Luck was hurt.     Perhaps that was during one of your many stretches where you disappear?      Chudzinkski changed the offense to accommodate Hasselbeck who isn't physically capable of doing the things that Luck can.    Plus,  then we to our 3rd string QB,  and then we went to our 4th and 5th string QB.      You think you can win 6 games without Andrew Luck and without great coaching?        Jezz, JShipp --- stop!     The ship sailed on this one.     You appear to be the only one here who didn't see it. 

 

We are NOT one good off-season away from being a contender for anything else other than the AFC South.

If we can win that,  we'll be fortunate.      And if we can't win that,  a year from now we'll have a new Head Coach,  and MAYBE even a new General Manager.

 

 

[jvan1973]

27 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

We are ranked roughly 30th on defense.     The NFL has 32 teams.    Do the math.

 

 

 

After extended research and with help from common core.  

 

I got 3rd from the bottom

[jshipp23]

30 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

The defense from TWO YEARS AGO is gone.

 

I don't know why you don't know this?     Do you see anyone on on this website claiming otherwise?    No.

 

Just you.

 

We are ranked roughly 30th on defense.     The NFL has 32 teams.    Do the math.

 

As for the coaching -- Hell yes,  that's what carried us during the stretch that Luck was hurt.     Perhaps that was during one of your many stretches where you disappear?      Chudzinkski changed the offense to accommodate Hasselbeck who isn't physically capable of doing the things that Luck can.    Plus,  then we to our 3rd string QB,  and then we went to our 4th and 5th string QB.      You think you can win 6 games without Andrew Luck and without great coaching?        Jezz, JShipp --- stop!     The ship sailed on this one.     You appear to be the only one here who didn't see it. 

 

We are NOT one good off-season away from being a contender for anything else other than the AFC South.

If we can win that,  we'll be fortunate.      And if we can't win that,  a year from now we'll have a new Head Coach,  and MAYBE even a new General Manager.

 

 

I'll come back to this post next season so you can admit you were wrong...

[#12.]

The original post was much closer to reality than anything contesting it.  But, like clockwork, here come the predictable responses.  Once reality sets in that Grigson and Chuck aren't going anywhere, the 2017 spin/rationalization train inevitably leaves the station.  

 

 

[The Fish]

To me, the truth is that I'm mortified that this comparison even has to be debated.

 

[#12.]

6 minutes ago, The Fish said:

To me, the truth is that I'm mortified that this comparison even has to be debated.

 

Give them Luck and they would be saying the same thing.

[Luck is Good]

Even talk about being compared to the Browns is bad lol

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, jshipp23 said:

I'll come back to this post next season so you can admit you were wrong...

 

So......

 

I was over on NFL.com....   and they've got a nice story about the resurgent Pittsburgh Steelers....  how they used to be very good on defense....   and then they got old and slow....   but now,  they're not.

 

And the story notes very high up that it took Pittsburgh THREE YEARS to rebuild their defense.

 

Pittsburgh is as well run an organization as there is in football and have been for nearly 50 years.

 

If it takes Pittsburgh three years to rebuild their defense,  odds are it will take the Colts three years.

 

Remember, it took the Colts FIVE YEARS to build their offense....   and actually,  we're now going on the 6th year of building it.

 

Things in the NFL take time.  

 

I've said we can be competitive for the AFC South next year.     But your wish of having one of the best rosters in the NFL is a pipe dream.     It's not based in reality.     

 

And if I'm wrong,  I'll be happy!    Because that means the Colts will be doing great and perhaps ahead of schedule.     Good for us!       

 

Here's the NFL story I mentioned at the top of the post....

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000776973/article/pittsburgh-steelers-defense-no-longer-old-and-slow

[jshipp23]

1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

So......

 

I was over on NFL.com....   and they've got a nice story about the resurgent Pittsburgh Steelers....  how they used to be very good on defense....   and then they got old and slow....   but now,  they're not.

 

And the story notes very high up that it took Pittsburgh THREE YEARS to rebuild their defense.

 

Pittsburgh is as well run an organization as there is in football and have been for nearly 50 years.

 

If it takes Pittsburgh three years to rebuild their defense,  odds are it will take the Colts three years.

 

Remember, it took the Colts FIVE YEARS to build their offense....   and actually,  we're now going on the 6th year of building it.

 

Things in the NFL take time.  

 

I've said we can be competitive for the AFC South next year.     But your wish of having one of the best rosters in the NFL is a pipe dream.     It's not based in reality.     

 

And if I'm wrong,  I'll be happy!    Because that means the Colts will be doing great and perhaps ahead of schedule.     Good for us!       

 

Here's the NFL story I mentioned at the top of the post....

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000776973/article/pittsburgh-steelers-defense-no-longer-old-and-slow

Sometimes NCF you have to think for yourself instead of taking the so called experts views on everything...They are wrong the majority of the time...If we just get a pass rush and a running back we are there...We have our money in the offense that is our identity. .Our defense does need to be better, but it doesn't need to be top 10 to be contenders...We can go from 30th to 15-22 and be contenders in 1 offseason....We had more sacks than Pittsburgh, they got a better D but are not all world...Pittsburgh is winning because of their offense...

[Smonroe]

12 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

Sometimes NCF you have to think for yourself instead of taking the so called experts views on everything...They are wrong the majority of the time...If we just get a pass rush and a running back we are there...We have our money in the offense that is our identity. .Our defense does need to be better, but it doesn't need to be top 10 to be contenders...We can go from 30th to 15-22 and be contenders in 1 offseason....We had more sacks than Pittsburgh, they got a better D but are not all world...Pittsburgh is winning because of their offense...

 

Agreed, the great defenses are few and far between.  A good D is all you need if you have a great offense.  

 

NCF, I don't know what you meant saying it took 5 years to build the O.  The O was pretty good from Luck's first year on.  If you're saying it took 5 years for Grigson to address the Oline, then I'm with you.  Besides, teams pretty much turn over with new personnel every four years, except for a few key guys.  

[NewColtsFan]

22 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

Sometimes NCF you have to think for yourself instead of taking the so called experts views on everything...They are wrong the majority of the time...If we just get a pass rush and a running back we are there...We have our money in the offense that is our identity. .Our defense does need to be better, but it doesn't need to be top 10 to be contenders...We can go from 30th to 15-22 and be contenders in 1 offseason....We had more sacks than Pittsburgh, they got a better D but are not all world...Pittsburgh is winning because of their offense...

 

I'm not relying on the media.     I'm relying on the facts.   

 

Fact:    Pittsburgh let their defense get old and slow.

 

Fact:    It took Pittsburgh 3 years to rebuild it.     Yes,  Pittsburgh is not all world, and it took them THREE YEARS to build what they have.      You're making my argument not yours!

 

Those are facts,  it's not media spin.     

 

And no,  we're not just a pass rush and a running back away from being thee.

 

Who is stopping the run on our side?     We're near the bottom on that stat?

 

And who is covering the WR's for the Colts?      Davis can't stay healthy.   He hasn't been two 10 since 2014.     Patrick Robinson is even worse.   Butler,  our 3rd corner, is likely moving to back-up safety.     Who is playing corner for the Colts?     And safety?       Oh, and how about inside linebacker?      These are ALL FACTS,  not media spin.

 

It's great to be a fan,  but thinking like a fan is going to give you disappointment and heartbreak.....

 

[jshipp23]

1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I'm not relying on the media.     I'm relying on the facts.   

 

Fact:    Pittsburgh let their defense get old and slow.

 

Fact:    It took Pittsburgh 3 years to rebuild it.     Yes,  Pittsburgh is not all world, and it took them THREE YEARS to build what they have.      You're making my argument not yours!

 

Those are facts,  it's not media spin.     

 

And no,  we're not just a pass rush and a running back away from being thee.

 

Who is stopping the run on our side?     We're near the bottom on that stat?

 

And who is covering the WR's for the Colts?      Davis can't stay healthy.   He hasn't been two 10 since 2014.     Patrick Robinson is even worse.   Butler,  our 3rd corner, is likely moving to back-up safety.     Who is playing corner for the Colts?     And safety?       Oh, and how about inside linebacker?      These are ALL FACTS,  not media spin.

 

It's great to be a fan,  but thinking like a fan is going to give you disappointment and heartbreak.....

 

Im sure we will draft or sign some corners...smh..Actually Melvin and Milton have some upside, our secondary will look MUCH better when they can have a pass rush to help them so they don't have to cover all day...Our run defense will be better with Lankford and Anderson a year back from surgery and hopefully back to his old self..Say we sign Poe or Brandon Williams for NT, Ingram or Parry for edge..Then draft another edge, ilb, rb in first 3 rounds? You are saying we can't contend? Not to mention Im sure our young players on o-line and defense will be improved with another year of development...

[jshipp23]

9 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I'm not relying on the media.     I'm relying on the facts.   

 

Fact:    Pittsburgh let their defense get old and slow.

 

Fact:    It took Pittsburgh 3 years to rebuild it.     Yes,  Pittsburgh is not all world, and it took them THREE YEARS to build what they have.      You're making my argument not yours!

 

Those are facts,  it's not media spin.     

 

And no,  we're not just a pass rush and a running back away from being thee.

 

Who is stopping the run on our side?     We're near the bottom on that stat?

 

And who is covering the WR's for the Colts?      Davis can't stay healthy.   He hasn't been two 10 since 2014.     Patrick Robinson is even worse.   Butler,  our 3rd corner, is likely moving to back-up safety.     Who is playing corner for the Colts?     And safety?       Oh, and how about inside linebacker?      These are ALL FACTS,  not media spin.

 

It's great to be a fan,  but thinking like a fan is going to give you disappointment and heartbreak.....

 

Do we need an all pro at every position to contend?

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, jshipp23 said:

Im sure we will draft or sign some corners...smh..Actually Melvin and Milton have some upside, our secondary will look MUCH better when they can have a pass rush to help them so they don't have to cover all day...Our run defense will be better with Lankford and Anderson a year back from surgery and hopefully back to his old self..Say we sign Poe or Brandon Williams for NT, Ingram or Parry for edge..Then draft another edge, ilb, rb in first 3 rounds? You are saying we can't contend? Not to mention Im sure our young players on o-line and defense will be improved with another year of development...

 

I'm saying we'll contend for the AFC South.       But it's not likely we'll make a deep run in the playoffs.

 

Not impossible.      But not likely.

 

You keep throwing out ideas....    your first sentence,  "I'm sure we will draft or sign some corners....   shaking my head"....

 

OK.....   we just drafted DJ Smith with our 2nd pick at the top of the 3rd round in 2015.    He flamed out in 18 months.       we just signed Patrick Robinson as our #2 corner, and that comes after trying Greg Toler as our 2nd corner.       We've been doing what you recommend,  but we don't do it very well.    

 

Even if we make all the right moves and draft/sign all the right players,  the law of averages says that some will get hurt....   and some won't pan out,  even the veterans.      That's what happens in the NFL.     Doing this is hard!!      It's not easy and there are rarely quick fixes.

 

Stuff happens!

 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, jshipp23 said:

Do we need an all pro at every position to contend?

 

No.    But we do not have a single all pro on the defense.     Not one.

 

We do not have a single difference maker on the defense.    Not one.

 

We do not have a single play maker on the defense.      Not one.

 

We have some nice complimentary pieces and they'll get better,   but there's an absence of talent on that side of the ball.         We need some time.....     patience is going to be needed.

 

[Defjamz26]

On 1/19/2017 at 2:50 PM, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

He got a very raw deal in his first year by having to play with so many different backup QBs, the Josh Gordon debacle, basically losing ALL of his quality offensive linemen, etc. Their putrid record is a huge indication of that.

But look at how well the Terrelle Pryor at WR experiment worked. He went from fringe roster guy to the Browns leading WR, and tallied over 1,000 yards. I'm not saying Jackson's primed to be Belichick 2.0, but that type of outside-the-box thinking, coupled with the fact that he is an innovative offensive mind, is why I think he'll be a good HC.

You can't credit Jackson with Pryor. Pryor decided to switch to WR on his own like 3 years ago. 

[jshipp23]

17 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

No.    But we do not have a single all pro on the defense.     Not one.

 

We do not have a single difference maker on the defense.    Not one.

 

We do not have a single play maker on the defense.      Not one.

 

We have some nice complimentary pieces and they'll get better,   but there's an absence of talent on that side of the ball.         We need some time.....     patience is going to be needed.

 

We are on the NCF 10 year plan to success.....Like another poster tried to explain rosters pretty much turn over every 5 or six years besides a few players..I don't think this take it slow patient bullcrap is the way to go when you have a Franchise QB...We should always be going for it every year...We need to be AGGRESSIVE in free agency and go after top talent, no more bargain shopping...

[Andrew Luck fan club]

It all depends on how the offseason goes.. and how our current players develope.. and if some of the draft picks can make an impact early on.. anything could happen next season. 

[Colts_Fan12]

4 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

We are on the NCF 10 year plan to success.....

No it looks to me like your expecting Grigson to somehow turn this D around in one offseason. How the hell do you think he will do that? The guy has had 5 years and we don't have anyone worth a crap besides an aging Davis and a hope that Anderson comes back strong.  

 

NCF is right you are wrong the D blows.

[NewColtsFan]

Just now, jshipp23 said:

We are on the NCF 10 year plan to success.....

 

 

It's not my plan.     I'm all for doing it as fast as we can.     It wasn't my idea to take this long to figure out the offense and let the defense get this bad.     This is on the current front office.

 

I'm only sharing with you (and others) that patience is going to be needed.    We're not going to be great overnight,  because NO ONE is great overnight.     That it takes time.

 

By the way,   I'm already on record as saying that I want a MINIMUM of 10 wins and the AFC South championship or more for Grigson and Pagano to retain their jobs.      And that's the minimum.     So, if we somehow manage to win the South with only 9 wins....    then,  unless we make a shocking deep run in the playoffs,  I'm for firing the duo of Pagano and Grigson.      Six years will have been long enough.

 

Don't try to link me to any plan like 10 years......     this is not my mess....     I'm only explaining how BIG the mess is....

 

[MacDee1975]

Yeah....so devoid of talent that they were literally 3 plays away from being 11-5.

 

Make good decisions with FA and the draft this year.......and even with the averages minds that populate this coaching staff, this team easily, easily could go 12-4 and run away with this division.

[NewColtsFan]

1 minute ago, Majin Vegeta said:

It all depends on how the offseason goes.. and how our current players develope.. and if some of the draft picks can make an impact early on.. anything could happen next season. 

 

 

That's a lot of "ifs"......   and in the NFL all of those "ifs" becoming a reality rarely happens.....

 

Hey,  I hope it does....    I'd rather be wrong and have the team be successful then be right and have a disappointing year for some.....

 

I'd ALWAYS rather be wrong and have the team be better than I expect.

 

It just doesn't happen that way very often....

 

[jshipp23]

7 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

No it looks to me like your expecting Grigson to somehow turn this D around in one offseason. How the hell do you think he will do that? The guy has had 5 years and we don't have anyone worth a crap besides an aging Davis and a hope that Anderson comes back strong.  

 

NCF is right you are wrong the D blows.

But the offense doesn't. ...Now we have the luxury of going all in on the defense in all areas draft and free agency. ..I'm saying it can be fixed in 1 offseason, and if not they need to go I want them gone as much as anybody..I'm just trying to look at the bright side since we are stuck another year..It just needs to be middle of the road respectable defense, not the 85 Bears. ..

[Andrew Luck fan club]

2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

That's a lot of "ifs"......   and in the NFL all of those "ifs" becoming a reality rarely happens.....

 

Hey,  I hope it does....    I'd rather be wrong and have the team be successful then be right and have a disappointing year for some.....

 

I'd ALWAYS rather be wrong and have the team be better than I expect.

 

It just doesn't happen that way very often....

 

All I said was anything could happen.. my expectations aren't very high for next year but my hopes are. 

[Colts_Fan12]

7 minutes ago, MacDee1975 said:

Yeah....so devoid of talent that they were literally 3 plays away from being 11-5.

 

Make good decisions with FA and the draft this year.......and even with the averages minds that populate this coaching staff, this team easily, easily could go 12-4 and run away with this division.

Our schedule was weak as hell.

[jshipp23]

1 minute ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

Our schedule was weak as hell.

Even weaker next year. ..No reason we cant go 12-4 and get home playoff game or 2 ...Even with this mediocre coaching staff..

[Colts_Fan12]

1 minute ago, jshipp23 said:

Even weaker next year. ..No reason we cant go 12-4 and get home playoff game or 2 ...Even with this mediocre coaching staff..

That's terrible cause then the *s get another year 

[Solon]

3 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

5 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

Even weaker next year. ..No reason we cant go 12-4 and get home playoff game or 2 ...Even with this mediocre coaching staff..

That's terrible cause then the *s get another year 

 

[jshipp23]

3 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

That's terrible cause then the *s get another year 

Oh I know...LOL, That was my biggest fear and why I was wanting them fired so bad now while we have an excuse to...It is what it is though, they'll make the playoffs next year,  probably win a game, so we are stuck at least till the contracts are up..Just got to hope they can somehow freakin win it all with them..Im not confident in that, but gotta just hope I don't want to see 8-8 again...

[Colts_Fan12]

4 minutes ago, Solon said:

 

Oh you wanna do great against garbage teams then when we get a difficult schedule and we get our ***es kicked then wonder what's wrong. Great idea!

[NewColtsFan]

47 minutes ago, MacDee1975 said:

Yeah....so devoid of talent that they were literally 3 plays away from being 11-5.

 

Make good decisions with FA and the draft this year.......and even with the averages minds that populate this coaching staff, this team easily, easily could go 12-4 and run away with this division.

 

And what were those three plays again?

 

Remind me.......

 

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

After extended research and with help from common core.  

 

I got 3rd from the bottom

 

OK.....     maybe it's just my odd sense of humor......     but I freaking LOVE this post!       

 

We used to have an emoji that showed a man on his knees bowing down and giving thanks.....    I'd give you one of those if I had it.....      this was great.....    and just what I needed....

 

Many, many thanks!      

[southwest1]

11 hours ago, BullsColtsFan1 said:

http://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/cowherd-rips-jim-irsay-calls-colts-cleveland-with-andrew-luck/

I looked at this link & wondered to myself this question: 

 

Even if I accepted the premise the Jimmy reached out to Peyton Manning to see if #18 would be interested in becoming our next GM, why in the hades would Manning even listen to Irsay after he said unflattering remarks after releasing him that the Sheriff can put up 'Star Wars' stats but not win SBs anymore? 

 

Elite HOF QBs don't forget cruel, personal shots like that ever. The cuts against a man's professional pride never ever heal. I know Bill Polian said that Peyton could become a competent GM in short order & all, but Peyton would work side by side with Elway first before he'd ever do the front office thing with Irsay to me. 

[southwest1]

1 hour ago, jshipp23 said:

No reason we cant go 12-4 and get home playoff game or 2 ...Even with this mediocre coaching staff..

That's what scares me man because if that happens Jimmy will say "You see, I was right to sign my HC & GM to new deals & that validation will mean INDY is stuck with Chuck & Ryan for the long haul. I know JS23 & CF12 took a lot of heat for stating that, which was unfair in my view.

 

Here's why: It's not like those forum members are opposed to winning & like to see coaches/GMs get fired. They just know when a partnership has reached it's limit & you already know what you have. Leadership that is starting to struggle winning division games now & a team that still makes way too many false start penalties at home that can't even compete with real SB contender squads. 

 

I ask you, where would owner Arther Blank be right now if he hadn't fired Mike Smith & hired Dan Quinn? Certainly, not playing in the conference championship game I can tell you that. 

[jshipp23]

1 minute ago, southwest1 said:

That's what scares me man because if that happens Jimmy will say "You see, I was right to sign my HC & GM to new deals & that validation will mean INDY is stuck with Chuck & Ryan for the long haul. I know JS23 & CF12 took a lot of heat for stating that, which was unfair in my view.

 

Here's why: It's not like those forum members are opposed to winning & like to see coaches/GMs get fired. They just know when a partnership has reached it's limit & you already know what you have. Leadership that is starting to struggle winning division games now & a team that still makes way too many false start penalties at home that can't even compete with real SB contender squads. 

 

I ask you, where would owner Arther Blank be right now if he hadn't fired Mike Smith & hired Dan Quinn? Certainly, not playing in the conference championship game I can tell you that. 

That's why I was so adamant that we fire them now..I could see the writing on the wall for the future..I've come to terms now that we are gonna be stuck with them ...I think we will manage to win the division and get a home playoff game we very well could win...That'll buy Grigano another year or 2 of grace. ..I think we are stuck with them for a minimum of 2 years now, so we have to hope for the best...I would feel much better with another coach, and several would have been upgrades...Mediocre coaches still can win with a great QB they can coattail ride...Fox and Rivera for example, so just got to look at it from that perspective, and hope we add some legit talent on defense, and make it hard for even Pagano to screw it up...