National Anthem

[southwest1]

23 hours ago, Gramz said:

I love our National anthem and feel a sense of pride when singing and/or listening to it.

 

What I detest is when artists feel the need to change the melody when singing it..

 

And I personally like the tradition of having it sung before games.  Just my 2 cents on the topic.

Thank you so much for saying this Gramz. Yes, I know we are friends & people are entitled to their opinion of course, but I love what you said that I highlighted from your post. You are so right on the money here. The Natl. Anthem & the sacrifice the song represents means that the performer should never alter the masterpiece thats already there. I'm biased I know, but that's how I truly feel. 

 

I'm still upset over Rosanne Barr when she totally massacred the Star Spangled Banner on purpose several yrs ago. 

 

And before anyone says come on SW1 maybe Rosanne didn't have the vocal capacity to hit the high note at the end. To that I say, she sabotaged the whole song intentionally for comic relief & she was trying to make a mockery of what the Natl. Anthem truly stands for. JMO. 

 

Here's my other pet peeve: Everyone knows what a challenging song that is & if you can't pull it off vocally; you don't even agree to perform it to begin with. Do it justice or don't do it at all period as a singer. 

[braveheartcolt]

You should hear me singing it...........Maria Callas I'm not.......or Pavarotti. Or even Justin Bieber.....

 

[Nadine]

1 hour ago, ÅÐØNϧ 1 said:

 

The problem with this world in general IMO is that people would rather fight than look for ways to agree baby steps are needed in all situations the ability to speak plainly & honestly has been replaced with political correctness instead of common sense,

 

As a chess player I realize there is black & white & 2 sides to everything if we as adults could just reel in the rhetoric & concentrate on the issues at hand our children & grand children could inherit a world much better than the one that we see currently .

 

I do have an opinion it is as a child of the sixties & a teen of the seventies we have lost a great deal in a short time IMO.

 

While  I hope for a better tomorrow with  so much on the line regardless of side you choose it seems once again in my opinion that things will get worse there seems to be so much hate in this world that it boggles my mind that the sixties hippies the flower power generation are now replaced by haters who are so extreme so unforgiving that just talking or disagreeing can led to battery or death in this atmosphere with all the lies everywhere you look its just amazes & mystifies me honesty is a thing of the past without it we are lost . 

I think lots of people are guilty of being too dogmatic these days.

We live in a 'if you're not for me, you're agin me' world right now.  

[DougDew]

This could get funny.

 

I'm waiting for someone to criticize the concept of having an "us vs them" mentality (and criticizing it is the PC thing to do), forgetting that this is a sports forum.......

 

where "us vs them" is what its all about.

[southwest1]

2 hours ago, ÅÐØNϧ 1 said:

 

The problem with this world in general IMO is that people would rather fight than look for ways to agree baby steps are needed in all situations the ability to speak plainly & honestly has been replaced with political correctness instead of common sense,

 

As a chess player I realize there is black & white & 2 sides to everything if we as adults could just reel in the rhetoric & concentrate on the issues at hand our children & grand children could inherit a world much better than the one that we see currently .

 

I do have an opinion it is as a child of the sixties & a teen of the seventies we have lost a great deal in a short time IMO.

 

While  I hope for a better tomorrow with  so much on the line regardless of side you choose it seems once again in my opinion that things will get worse there seems to be so much hate in this world that it boggles my mind that the sixties hippies the flower power generation are now replaced by haters who are so extreme so unforgiving that just talking or disagreeing can led to battery or death in this atmosphere with all the lies everywhere you look its just amazes & mystifies me honesty is a thing of the past without it we are lost . 

Nice post Adonis 1. It is important to take baby steps in terms of discussing controversial topics acknowledging that a difference of opinion on any subject doesn't make 1 side deranged on 1 side & morally correct on the other side of aisle. It is always possible to disagree with another without being disagreeable provided that both parties involved are open to it & less inclined to be confrontational just to ruffle some feathers & be unnecessarily provocative to get under somebody's else's skin. 

 

Very well articulated Adonis. Bravo! 

 

That's why I like the Colts Forum in general because most members can interact rationally with 1 another, appreciate different viewpoints, maybe learn something new, & not sling mud back & forth. It's a very sharp & sophisticated Indy fanbase clientele. 

[Buck Showalter]

5 hours ago, DougDew said:

Its because the percentage of people living and working in the US who are actually American citizens is probably at its lowest ever.

 

Transnational companies transfer people here to work.  Others migrate here to work.  When the corporation changes strategy, the workers get transferred out. 

 

People are here as long as they can earn a living and get benefits, not because they have some burning desire to be an American and leave their home culture behind.  They come here strictly for financial reasons.  The "pride" thing is not a draw.  When the money runs out, they'll go back home.  No real desire to make America their home, so they have no problems trashing it while they're here earning a paycheck.

 

I would argue this stance, and the overall opinion that American “Pride” is waning altogether. There is this language and concept of the “American Dream” that one could argue largely still exists throughout parts of the world. While the concept exists, however, it means very different things to populations crossing socio-economic and geographical barriers.

 

Speaking to the concept of American culture in large, any perspective of a loss in American culture can more easily be attributed to the greater divide between “High” and “Low” culture within the post-modern era of the late 20th & early 21st centuries, that we are currently experiencing.

 

The fast food, big box store, reality TV culture that we live in, and the only reality that the younger generations have grown up knowing, builds a generic culture that by in large, does not support an integrated sense of community, and only further creates, provides for, and profits an “unattainable” corporate elite.

 

During the Modern Era,(approximately 1865-1965) high culture held a sense of elitism that was more intellectually based than economically based, allowing for a more attainable and greater accessibility to what one could consider a true and strong American culture. This can be evidenced from the art world’s shift from Paris to New York during the early/mid-20th century.

 

Earlier in this discussion people have mentioned and offered the concept of “Iconoclasm”, the act of destroying an icon such as the American Flag, as evidence of a lack of American pride. However, Iconoclast’s motives and intentions are usually misunderstood, which is an ironic coincidence within a society set to the principles of ‘checks & balances’. This was vehemently evident in reactions to Andres Serrano’s artwork during the 1980’s. His work was held in contempt because an uninformed audience held onto preconceived notions of the ‘vulgarity’ of his materials, (bodily fluids), without considering the intellectual decisions and choices by the artist, which were actually referencing the spiritual and life sustaining qualities of those materials.  

 

Speaking to the National Anthem, maybe this is why some feel that America the Beautiful is a more suitable choice of song than The Star Spangled Banner.

 

To have true, un-blind, pride in something, there first needs to be something to be proud of. With race issues continuing to dominate headlines, obesity rates soaring, and reality stars dominating media, what is there for younger generations to be proud of?

 

I'm proud to be an American because of the contributions of Americans to a truly original American culture, that have made America a 'home' and a nation to have pride in, making it a place worth fighting for. From the Hudson River Valley School of the mid 19th century, to the American Jazz of the 30's, to the New York schools of the 40's, on through great living American artists of today, such as James Turrell and Richard Serra, (my personal faves). Those are the things to take pride in, not McDonalds, Wal-Mart, or Real Housewives...

 

So if there is a perceived lack of pride in America, it may be warranted in the growing divide between High and Low culture..

 

that's just my opinion though...

[Nadine]

@Buck Showalter going to take me a while to process all that! Are you a university professor?

[Myles]

I think the talk of Americans being arrogant is misguided.  For example:   The Olympics.   Just because the USA has been dominating swimming, they shouldn't feel the need to hold back there joy. 

[grmasterb]

7 hours ago, Myles said:

I think the talk of Americans being arrogant is misguided.  For example:   The Olympics.   Just because the USA has been dominating swimming, they shouldn't feel the need to hold back there joy. 

Maybe not arrogance, but hypocrisy? 

[BOTT]

1 hour ago, grmasterb said:

Maybe not arrogance, but hypocrisy? 

What hypocrisy?

[grmasterb]

42 minutes ago, BOTT said:

What hypocrisy?

Wagging our fingers at Russian swimmers who've served doping suspensions when the U.S. has had plenty of athletes suspended or banned for using PEDs.

 

Oh, and Hope Solo.

[BOTT]

9 minutes ago, grmasterb said:

Wagging our fingers at Russian swimmers who've served doping suspensions when the U.S. has had plenty of athletes suspended or banned for using PEDs.

 

Oh, and Hope Solo.

That's not hypocrisy.  It's not like Lilly King is representing the entire US Olympic team.  If you are going to use that standard, no Olympian could ever speak out, because all nations have people that cheat.

[grmasterb]

15 minutes ago, BOTT said:

That's not hypocrisy.  It's not like Lilly King is representing the entire US Olympic team.  If you are going to use that standard, no Olympian could ever speak out, because all nations have people that cheat.

King is representing the United States of America at Rio, and she has many in this country cheering her bravado and defending her actions.

 

I don't have a problem with an athlete saying, "I'm better than you." King, however, is being sanctimonious and is exposing American hypocrisy. Yes, the Russian doping program is scandalous. But U.S. track and field, as an example, has historically been polluted by dopers.

[BOTT]

2 minutes ago, grmasterb said:

King is representing the United States of America at Rio, and she has many in this country cheering her bravado and defending her actions.

 

I don't have a problem with an athlete saying, "I'm better than you." King, however, is being sanctimonious and is exposing American hypocrisy. Yes, the Russian doping program is scandalous. But U.S. track and field, as an example, has historically been polluted by dopers.

You are being ridiculous.  It would be hypocrisy if she herself had used PEDS or he embraced the participation of a known PED user on the US team.

 

like I said, you are basically saying no Olympian should speak out against PEDS because some other athlete they have never met and never competed against tested positive.  Thats an odd stance.....unless you are Peirs Morgan.

[grmasterb]

19 minutes ago, BOTT said:

You are being ridiculous.  It would be hypocrisy if she herself had used PEDS or he embraced the participation of a known PED user on the US team.

 

like I said, you are basically saying no Olympian should speak out against PEDS because some other athlete they have never met and never competed against tested positive.  Thats an odd stance.....unless you are Peirs Morgan.

King and others are more than speaking out against PEDs ... They're saying the Russians shouldn't be allowed to compete at all.

[buccolts]

3 hours ago, grmasterb said:

Maybe not arrogance, but hypocrisy? 

 

I think 'arrogance' was pretty accurate. 

[BOTT]

17 minutes ago, grmasterb said:

King and others are more than speaking out against PEDs ... They're saying the Russians shouldn't be allowed to compete at all.

That's well within her right.  She also said the same thing about the US athletes that have tested positive and are now participating.

 

and actually, A LOT of athletes are not pleased that some of the Russians were allowed to compete.

 

having said that, those speaking out should be mindful that for some of these athletes using PEDS saying "no" isn't much of an option.

[RockThatBlue]

I'm glad I came to the Colts forum to be lectured on nationalism.

[RockThatBlue]

I really wish this forum had a political forum, or just one political thread. I understand why theres not though. 

[Nadine]

3 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

I really wish this forum had a political forum, or just one political thread. I understand why theres not though. 

it's because 

Football brings a lot of people of a lot of different beliefs together.   We disagree plenty on football.  

It's enough to focus on football

[IndyEric07]

Back on the national anthem topic...nobody beats Enrico palazzos version! 

 

[SteelCityColt]

1 hour ago, Nadine said:

it's because 

Football brings a lot of people of a lot of different beliefs together.   We disagree plenty on football.  

It's enough to focus on football

 

Agree 100%, look at the depth of feeling and disagreement on football alone as you say. The Trent Richardson thread was epic.. imagine that about a real hot potato  

[DougDew]

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 3:19 PM, Buck Showalter said:

 

I would argue this stance, and the overall opinion that American “Pride” is waning altogether. There is this language and concept of the “American Dream” that one could argue largely still exists throughout parts of the world. While the concept exists, however, it means very different things to populations crossing socio-economic and geographical barriers.

 

Speaking to the concept of American culture in large, any perspective of a loss in American culture can more easily be attributed to the greater divide between “High” and “Low” culture within the post-modern era of the late 20th & early 21st centuries, that we are currently experiencing.

 

The fast food, big box store, reality TV culture that we live in, and the only reality that the younger generations have grown up knowing, builds a generic culture that by in large, does not support an integrated sense of community, and only further creates, provides for, and profits an “unattainable” corporate elite.

 

During the Modern Era,(approximately 1865-1965) high culture held a sense of elitism that was more intellectually based than economically based, allowing for a more attainable and greater accessibility to what one could consider a true and strong American culture. This can be evidenced from the art world’s shift from Paris to New York during the early/mid-20th century.

 

Earlier in this discussion people have mentioned and offered the concept of “Iconoclasm”, the act of destroying an icon such as the American Flag, as evidence of a lack of American pride. However, Iconoclast’s motives and intentions are usually misunderstood, which is an ironic coincidence within a society set to the principles of ‘checks & balances’. This was vehemently evident in reactions to Andres Serrano’s artwork during the 1980’s. His work was held in contempt because an uninformed audience held onto preconceived notions of the ‘vulgarity’ of his materials, (bodily fluids), without considering the intellectual decisions and choices by the artist, which were actually referencing the spiritual and life sustaining qualities of those materials.  

 

Speaking to the National Anthem, maybe this is why some feel that America the Beautiful is a more suitable choice of song than The Star Spangled Banner.

 

To have true, un-blind, pride in something, there first needs to be something to be proud of. With race issues continuing to dominate headlines, obesity rates soaring, and reality stars dominating media, what is there for younger generations to be proud of?

 

I'm proud to be an American because of the contributions of Americans to a truly original American culture, that have made America a 'home' and a nation to have pride in, making it a place worth fighting for. From the Hudson River Valley School of the mid 19th century, to the American Jazz of the 30's, to the New York schools of the 40's, on through great living American artists of today, such as James Turrell and Richard Serra, (my personal faves). Those are the things to take pride in, not McDonalds, Wal-Mart, or Real Housewives...

 

So if there is a perceived lack of pride in America, it may be warranted in the growing divide between High and Low culture..

 

that's just my opinion though...

In the past, most people coming to America came to start a new life.  They saw America as a place to live and work freely, with opportunities and protections to do so.   Now, most just come for a job.  Either because they get transferred by a company into its American office, or migrants looking to get employed by companies that either do not ask questions or aren't allowed to ask questions.

 

Its due to the policies and values of the elites.  Its the "high culture" that has imported labor and exported jobs for their own benefit.  That culture values the cold-hearted bottom line over a sense of "team". 

 

At one point, McDonald's was strictly an American thing.  And Walmart used to advertise its products as "made in the USA" .  But alas, the bean counters and people wanting stock appreciation,....people who need more money for their "high culture" endeavors..led by the argument that America needs to elevate itself from its "rube-like" culture, forced those companies to find new markets to expand into, and cheaper ways to produce their products.  Not to mention the pride some felt in the notion of liberating the people of foreign nations from their oppressive economic systems and poverty.  What a wonderful thing, to transfer wealth from the middle class to the impoverished peasants around the world.  It sure made a lot of elites feel good about themselves.

 

So they had no problem adopting the concept of "we go over there, and they can come over here"....which, btw, not only destroys the culture here but also destroys the culture over there (why do you think the fundamentalists muslims are angry?)  And the people involved in that process, whether they are Americans or not, are the ones profiting from it.

 

If your policies do not promote a sense of team, a sense of homogeny amongst people, then eventually things will deteriorate into an  every person for themselves attitude.  We'll only have allegiances to ourselves and our family, but not to neighbor, community, county, state or nation. 

 

And yes, I'm on a sports forum.  A place where I can freely express my love for the concept of "us vs. them"

[throwing BBZ]

16 minutes ago, DougDew said:

In the past, most people coming to America came to start a new life.  They saw America as a place to live and work freely, with opportunities and protections to do so.   Now, most just come for a job.  Either because they get transferred by a company into its American office, or migrants looking to get employed by companies that either do not ask questions or aren't allowed to ask questions.

 

Its due to the policies and values of the elites.  Its the "high culture" that has imported labor and exported jobs for their own benefit.  That culture values the cold-hearted bottom line over a sense of "team". 

 

At one point, McDonald's was strictly an American thing.  And Walmart used to advertise its products as "made in the USA" .  But alas, the bean counters and people wanting stock appreciation,....people who need more money for their "high culture" endeavors..supported by the academia led argument that America needs to elevate itself from its "rube-like" culture, forced those companies to find new markets to expand into, and cheaper ways to produce their products.  

 

So they had no problem adopting the concept of "we go over there, and they can come over here"....which, btw, not only destroys the culture here but also destroys the culture over there (why do you think the fundamentalists muslims are angry?)  And the people involved in that process, whether they are Americans or not, are the ones profiting from the attitude of "no one in the world should have its own unique culture"  and "wouldn't it be great we were all the same."

 

 

 

And yes, I'm on a sports forum.  A place where I can freely express my love for the concept of "us vs. them"

 

 Hmmm! 

If your policies do not promote a sense of team, then eventually things will deteriorate into an  everyone for themselves attitude, with no allegiances towards neighbor, community, county, state or nation.  No differences to be proud of.  Nothing to take pride in.

 

"The unsociable species is doomed to decay."

  I give our Colts top notch credit for hanging together as a Team these last few years. Our guys grind it out week after week in the fine tradition of "us vs. them"           Gooooooo Colts!   

[DougDew]

20 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Hmmm! 

If your policies do not promote a sense of team, then eventually things will deteriorate into an  everyone for themselves attitude, with no allegiances towards neighbor, community, county, state or nation.  No differences to be proud of.  Nothing to take pride in.

 

"The unsociable species is doomed to decay."

  I give our Colts top notch credit for hanging together as a Team these last few years. Our guys grind it out week after week in the fine tradition of "us vs. them"           Gooooooo Colts!   

Well, I edited a few things from the quote you posted to better clarify things.

 

But yes, the national anthem is a manifestation of the concept of us vs them.  You can argue on what basis we make those distinctions.  And some bases are wrong and some are right, but the concept of pride is a concept that inherently creates separation between people...in a good way.

 

We wear the horseshoe in the spirit of competition and playing the game according to the rules that benefit the game, and eventually every team, as a whole.

 

And as far as Lilly King, I love that she wags her figure at the cheaters.  They have to cheat just to try to keep up with her.  In fact, I hope when she interviews she talks about how many cheaters she just whipped.

 

She should have tremendous pride.  The way in which she has won separates herself from others...in a good way.

 

[CanuckColtsFan]

On August 10, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Buck Showalter said:

 

I would argue this stance, and the overall opinion that American “Pride” is waning altogether. There is this language and concept of the “American Dream” that one could argue largely still exists throughout parts of the world. While the concept exists, however, it means very different things to populations crossing socio-economic and geographical barriers.

 

Speaking to the concept of American culture in large, any perspective of a loss in American culture can more easily be attributed to the greater divide between “High” and “Low” culture within the post-modern era of the late 20th & early 21st centuries, that we are currently experiencing.

 

The fast food, big box store, reality TV culture that we live in, and the only reality that the younger generations have grown up knowing, builds a generic culture that by in large, does not support an integrated sense of community, and only further creates, provides for, and profits an “unattainable” corporate elite.

 

During the Modern Era,(approximately 1865-1965) high culture held a sense of elitism that was more intellectually based than economically based, allowing for a more attainable and greater accessibility to what one could consider a true and strong American culture. This can be evidenced from the art world’s shift from Paris to New York during the early/mid-20th century.

 

To have true, un-blind, pride in something, there first needs to be something to be proud of. With race issues continuing to dominate headlines, obesity rates soaring, and reality stars dominating media, what is there for younger generations to be proud of?

 

So if there is a perceived lack of pride in America, it may be warranted in the growing divide between High and Low culture..

 

that's just my opinion though...

 

I really think you touched on some great points. I would add, the increasing gap between rich and poor has tainted the pursuit of the American Dream. The debt treadmill makes it hard for people to take pride in themselves and and their country. 

 

I think major elements of American Culture are amazing. Food, sports, national parks, the jewel cities. I road trip the western US when I can. The people I meet are vibrant and interesting. I think you nailed the portrait of American culture as bent by corporate values. 

 

Laslty from a purely outside perspective, as Canadian we have no clue what is going on in this election. Seriously is that for real?

[crazycolt1]

13 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

I'm glad I came to the Colts forum to be lectured on nationalism.

So who twisted your arm to read any of this? If the Colts are the only reason you partake in this forum feel free to ignore any non Colt information.

[DougDew]

I'll just add, this thread is about the national anthem and to a lesser extent the related topic of national pride and even team pride. 

 

Its not about politics or an election.  Politics often touch on national pride, so this season those topics are going to visibly overlap, but they are still separate, IMO, and we can have a discussion without getting into politics.

[Nadine]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I'll just add, this thread is about the national anthem and to a lesser extent the related topic of national pride and even team pride. 

 

Its not about politics or an election.  Politics often touch on national pride, so this season those topics are going to visibly overlap, but they are still separate, IMO, and we can have a discussion without getting into politics.

not sure what you mean but, we're not talking about the election here

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, Nadine said:

not sure what you mean but, we're not talking about the election here

I know.  I think it can head in that direction so I was just being precautionary.

[RockThatBlue]

2 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

So who twisted your arm to read any of this? If the Colts are the only reason you partake in this forum feel free to ignore any non Colt information.

I was being sarcastic.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, RockThatBlue said:

I was being sarcastic.

Hard to tell when you don't leave a clue.

[Nadine]

closing

it was interesting for an accidental thread but it's run it's course