Despite depth chart, Good seems favorite for RG.

[Lawrence Owen]

http://horseshoeheroes.com/2016/08/02/despite-what-depth-chart-depicts-denzelle-good-looking-like-starting-rg/

 

I've been rooting for Good since he was drafted, (probably like a lot of others because: who don't want to see a 7th round pick play, let alone become a starter?)

But his size/strength, and foot quickness apparently are for real, and he just needs to learn the RG position at the pro level.  The author of the article compares Good to  Leonard Davis and Shawn Andrews.  Mighty big comparisons (figuratively and literaly)

 

I think they are practicing Good because they believe he can/will be thier best player for the position once he gets reps in and some experience.

But Thornton made the starter on the published depth chart because as of right now, he has more experience and is thier "better player" at that position `right now`. (this ofcourse is an assumption based on what i've read)

[Lawrence Owen]

http://www.1070thefan.com/blogs/grady-and-big-joe-show/colts-offensive-lineman-denzelle-good-first-car-he-bought-after-being

For anyone wanting more of an interviwe with Good, here is a radio interview with him from Aug 2nd.

Good info here as well

[CoachLite]

6 hours ago, Lawrence Owen said:

http://horseshoeheroes.com/2016/08/02/despite-what-depth-chart-depicts-denzelle-good-looking-like-starting-rg/

 

I've been rooting for Good since he was drafted, (probably like a lot of others because: who don't want to see a 7th round pick play, let alone become a starter?)

But his size/strength, and foot quickness apparently are for real, and he just needs to learn the RG position at the pro level.  The author of the article compares Good to  Leonard Davis and Shawn Andrews.  Mighty big comparisons (figuratively and literaly)

 

I think they are practicing Good because they believe he can/will be thier best player for the position once he gets reps in and some experience.

But Thornton made the starter on the published depth chart because as of right now, he has more experience and is thier "better player" at that position `right now`. (this ofcourse is an assumption based on what i've read)

Denzelle Good should ask to be traded to a team better able to recognize and develop his skills and talent.

[IndyD4U]

7 minutes ago, CoachLite said:

Denzelle Good should ask to be traded to a team better able to recognize and develop his skills and talent.

Nice post 

[SP_21]

15 minutes ago, CoachLite said:

Denzelle Good should ask to be traded to a team better able to recognize and develop his skills and talent.

Care to explain...?

[CoachLite]

15 minutes ago, SP_21 said:

Care to explain...?

The Colts, under Pagano, tend to play less talented, experienced players - esp. OL - over more talented younger players who must "wait their turn". Less experienced players will make mistakes. That's how they learn. The attitude re: RT seems to be from the "old school", here:

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1537385-what-does-the-perfect-nfl-right-tackle-look-like

 

[theanarchist]

9 minutes ago, CoachLite said:

The Colts, under Pagano, tend to play less talented, experienced players - esp. OL - over more talented younger players who must "wait their turn". Less experienced players will make mistakes. That's how they learn. The attitude re: RG seems to be from the "old school", here:

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1537385-what-does-the-perfect-nfl-right-tackle-look-like

 

I'm not sure which players  you feel that have been experienced that have played over younger players on the OL? In the last two seasons the line has been made up of Costanzo(he's young and talented and is the anchor of the line), Mewhort is a two  year starter at LG and he's young and talented. Hugh Thornton has played most of the games at RG the last two seasons and he has struggled. The Center position has been manned by young guys who are not talented. The RT position has been a revolving door and there was no one there that I would call young or talented. Reitz has been the man that has shown the most promise there and he was a project player. So, I think you are off base. JMO

[lollygagger8]

That's Good.......that's real Good. 

[lollygagger8]

1 hour ago, CoachLite said:

Denzelle Good should ask to be traded to a team better able to recognize and develop his skills and talent.

[SP_21]

1 hour ago, CoachLite said:

The Colts, under Pagano, tend to play less talented, experienced players - esp. OL - over more talented younger players who must "wait their turn". Less experienced players will make mistakes. That's how they learn. The attitude re: RT seems to be from the "old school", here:

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1537385-what-does-the-perfect-nfl-right-tackle-look-like

 

How does that apply to Good? Grigson and Pagano have done a phenomenal job with him. He's a guy, who two years ago was playing for Mars Hill, that now has a chance to start in the NFL. That's great scouting and great development of a promising young player...

[Steamboat_Shaun]

2 hours ago, CoachLite said:

Denzelle Good should ask to be traded to a team better able to recognize and develop his skills and talent.

 

That'd be interesting. You usually don't hear about 2nd year 7th round draft pick offensive linemen requesting trades. And way to ruin an otherwise nice thread about one of the most promising prospects along the offensive line that the Colts have had in 5 years.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

15 minutes ago, SP_21 said:

How does that apply to Good?

 

This one's simple: It doesn't.

[Smonroe]

15 minutes ago, SP_21 said:

How does that apply to Good? Grigson and Pagano have done a phenomenal job with him. He's a guy, who two years ago was playing for Mars Hill, that now has a chance to start in the NFL. That's great scouting and great development of a promising young player...

 

I was going to dismiss him as a troll, but he has a point.  Although he's missing the fact that 'experience' is part of 'talent'.  I'd rather have an experienced player out there than a raw rookie who's mistake could end up getting the franchise hurt.

 

It sure looks like they're having open competition on the line this year. 

[RockThatBlue]

2 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

That's Good.......that's real Good. 

Good post.

[Douzer]

My gut tells me the sooner Good gets on the field, the better. At guard, I believe he'll wear out the defenders lined up over him. I'm hoping it's official by opening day.

[Coffeedrinker]

Not to toot my own horn (but I'm going to) after the 1st preseason game last year, I posted on this forum that I thought Good was good and that I thought he had a future in the NFL, it's just rare to see a guy with that size move the way he moves.  Not many people believed me then.  Then when he played a few games in the regular season many other fans started to come around.

 

Like any player, you don't know if they have what it takes from a mental standpoint to work and prepare themselves to get better.  It's one thing to do it when the coach is there yelling at you but it's another to have the fortitude to do it in the offseason.  Good seems to have answered that question, at least for this year... that is is willing to put in the time in the offseason to improve.

[Superman]

7 hours ago, Smonroe said:

 

I was going to dismiss him as a troll, but he has a point.  Although he's missing the fact that 'experience' is part of 'talent'.  I'd rather have an experienced player out there than a raw rookie who's mistake could end up getting the franchise hurt.

 

It sure looks like they're having open competition on the line this year. 

 

To the bolded, not really. It's a myth that the Colts hesitate to play younger players in favor of experienced players, including at OL.

 

Last year, they benched Reitz and started Mewhort at RT, then fixed their mistake in Week 3 and moved Mewhort to LG and put Reitz on the field, where he stayed the rest of the season. That's after Mewhort started 14 games his rookie year.

 

Later in the season, when AC was hurt, they started UDFA rookie Denzelle Good at RT. This guy was Division III a year ago, but started a game as a rookie. This is just a few weeks after they released the veteran Herremans, who they benched when Mewhort was moved back to guard.

 

The year before, they benched Shipley at center and put UDFA rookie Jon Harrison on the field for two months -- ahead of Shipley and second year / heir apparent Holmes -- which most of us hated. Shipley and Holmes are gone, and Harrison, warts and all, is still here.

 

This year, the Colts chose not to pursue the best center to hit free agency in a long time. Instead, they drafted and basically crowned Ryan Kelly as their starting center. Then, rather than adding a couple proven veterans, they decided to let their first and second year OL duke it out in training camp. One of them is currently the favorite to start at RG.

 

In all these cases, the Colts had options, yet CHOSE to play a younger OL over someone with more experience.

 

The Colts staff might have some issues, but they don't rigidly default to experienced players ahead of younger, more talented players. Just because Grigson said three years ago that it's tough for a rookie OL to start doesn't mean the Colts won't start a rookie OL, or that they favor experience over perceived talent. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

To the bolded, not really. It's a myth that the Colts hesitate to play younger players in favor of experienced players, including at OL.

 

Last year, they benched Reitz and started Mewhort at RT, then fixed their mistake in Week 3 and moved Mewhort to LG and put Reitz on the field, where he stayed the rest of the season. That's after Mewhort started 14 games his rookie year.

 

Later in the season, when AC was hurt, they started UDFA rookie Denzelle Good at RT. This guy was Division III a year ago, but started a game as a rookie. This is just a few weeks after they released the veteran Herremans, who they benched when Mewhort was moved back to guard.

 

The year before, they benched Shipley at center and put UDFA rookie Jon Harrison on the field for two months -- ahead of Shipley and second year / heir apparent Holmes -- which most of us hated. Shipley and Holmes are gone, and Harrison, warts and all, is still here.

 

This year, the Colts chose not to pursue the best center to hit free agency in a long time. Instead, they drafted and basically crowned Ryan Kelly as their starting center. Then, rather than adding a couple proven veterans, they decided to let their first and second year OL duke it out in training camp. One of them is currently the favorite to start at RG.

 

In all these cases, the Colts had options, yet CHOSE to play a younger OL over someone with more experience.

 

The Colts staff might have some issues, but they don't rigidly default to experienced players ahead of younger, more talented players. Just because Grigson said three years ago that it's tough for a rookie OL to start doesn't mean the Colts won't start a rookie OL, or that they favor experience over perceived talent. 

 

I'm sorry you didn't put this response to the new poster,  CoachLite....     he was who you wanted to respond to...       I just hope he sees and reads your response so he's set straight.

 

[NewColtsFan]

12 hours ago, CoachLite said:

Denzelle Good should ask to be traded to a team better able to recognize and develop his skills and talent.

 

Please tell me that perhaps you were being sarcastic?

 

The Colts were basically the only team to scout him a year ago.    He was plucked from almost complete obscurity.       The rest of the NFL was caught snoozing on him.

 

Good was drafted all of one year ago.     He actually played last year as a rookie.     He actually STARTED last year as a rookie.       He might start this year, in his 2nd season.

 

How much better must we develop his talent before you feel good about that?

 

So,  were you kidding?

 

 

 

[Lawrence Owen]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

To the bolded, not really. It's a myth that the Colts hesitate to play younger players in favor of experienced players, including at OL.

 

Last year, they benched Reitz and started Mewhort at RT, then fixed their mistake in Week 3 and moved Mewhort to LG and put Reitz on the field, where he stayed the rest of the season. That's after Mewhort started 14 games his rookie year.

 

Later in the season, when AC was hurt, they started UDFA rookie Denzelle Good at RT. This guy was Division III a year ago, but started a game as a rookie. This is just a few weeks after they released the veteran Herremans, who they benched when Mewhort was moved back to guard.

 

The year before, they benched Shipley at center and put UDFA rookie Jon Harrison on the field for two months -- ahead of Shipley and second year / heir apparent Holmes -- which most of us hated. Shipley and Holmes are gone, and Harrison, warts and all, is still here.

 

This year, the Colts chose not to pursue the best center to hit free agency in a long time. Instead, they drafted and basically crowned Ryan Kelly as their starting center. Then, rather than adding a couple proven veterans, they decided to let their first and second year OL duke it out in training camp. One of them is currently the favorite to start at RG.

 

In all these cases, the Colts had options, yet CHOSE to play a younger OL over someone with more experience.

 

The Colts staff might have some issues, but they don't rigidly default to experienced players ahead of younger, more talented players. Just because Grigson said three years ago that it's tough for a rookie OL to start doesn't mean the Colts won't start a rookie OL, or that they favor experience over perceived talent. 

Sorry to nit-pick, but wasn't he the 2nd to last pick of the draft? Though he probably should have been UDFA,...

2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Not to toot my own horn (but I'm going to) after the 1st preseason game last year, I posted on this forum that I thought Good was good and that I thought he had a future in the NFL, it's just rare to see a guy with that size move the way he moves.  Not many people believed me then.  Then when he played a few games in the regular season many other fans started to come around.

 

Like any player, you don't know if they have what it takes from a mental standpoint to work and prepare themselves to get better.  It's one thing to do it when the coach is there yelling at you but it's another to have the fortitude to do it in the offseason.  Good seems to have answered that question, at least for this year... that is is willing to put in the time in the offseason to improve.

I was there with you. I was pretty high on Good as well, but then again,...i was on Robinson also.

[Smonroe]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

To the bolded, not really. It's a myth that the Colts hesitate to play younger players in favor of experienced players, including at OL.

 

Last year, they benched Reitz and started Mewhort at RT, then fixed their mistake in Week 3 and moved Mewhort to LG and put Reitz on the field, where he stayed the rest of the season. That's after Mewhort started 14 games his rookie year.

 

Later in the season, when AC was hurt, they started UDFA rookie Denzelle Good at RT. This guy was Division III a year ago, but started a game as a rookie. This is just a few weeks after they released the veteran Herremans, who they benched when Mewhort was moved back to guard.

 

The year before, they benched Shipley at center and put UDFA rookie Jon Harrison on the field for two months -- ahead of Shipley and second year / heir apparent Holmes -- which most of us hated. Shipley and Holmes are gone, and Harrison, warts and all, is still here.

 

This year, the Colts chose not to pursue the best center to hit free agency in a long time. Instead, they drafted and basically crowned Ryan Kelly as their starting center. Then, rather than adding a couple proven veterans, they decided to let their first and second year OL duke it out in training camp. One of them is currently the favorite to start at RG.

 

In all these cases, the Colts had options, yet CHOSE to play a younger OL over someone with more experience.

 

The Colts staff might have some issues, but they don't rigidly default to experienced players ahead of younger, more talented players. Just because Grigson said three years ago that it's tough for a rookie OL to start doesn't mean the Colts won't start a rookie OL, or that they favor experience over perceived talent. 

 

Agree with it all, but my point was - Experience is part of talent.  They'll play a younger, more talented guy once they feel his talent and experience is enough to take the position.

 

I won't agree if that poster was saying they're stubborn enough to play a vet if he's clearly being outplayed by a younger guy.  

 

 

[Pacergeek]

I sure hope so. Getting so old seeing the human penalty flag, Hugh Thornton, listed on our roster

[krunk]

4 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Not to toot my own horn (but I'm going to) after the 1st preseason game last year, I posted on this forum that I thought Good was good and that I thought he had a future in the NFL, it's just rare to see a guy with that size move the way he moves.  Not many people believed me then.  Then when he played a few games in the regular season many other fans started to come around.

 

Like any player, you don't know if they have what it takes from a mental standpoint to work and prepare themselves to get better.  It's one thing to do it when the coach is there yelling at you but it's another to have the fortitude to do it in the offseason.  Good seems to have answered that question, at least for this year... that is is willing to put in the time in the offseason to improve.

You know I was right there with you big bro!

[RockThatBlue]

Wonder if Grigson will get any credit for finding Good in the 7th. Hell a lot of 7th round picks don't even make it after preseason, let alone be starters in their second year which it appears he will be. Heck of a find by Grigson in the draft imo. Assuming he plays as well as we think.

[Superman]

2 hours ago, Lawrence Owen said:

Sorry to nit-pick, but wasn't he the 2nd to last pick of the draft? Though he probably should have been UDFA,...

 

You're right.

[Lawrence Owen]

8 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

Wonder if Grigson will get any credit for finding Good in the 7th. Hell a lot of 7th round picks don't even make it after preseason, let alone be starters in their second year which it appears he will be. Heck of a find by Grigson in the draft imo. Assuming he plays as well as we think.

Agreed.  Grigson gets a LOT of heat from bad drafts/trades/FA's.  But he's had a few really good grabs as well.  Good started 3-4 games ( can't remember exactly right now) last year due to the injury to A.C. and he did VERY well.  Not 'very well for a 7th round pick' but for any rounder.  He had a couple penalties which are atributed to being a rookie, any rookie, but his field play was VERY good for his first game actions in the NFL.  (IMO)

[Valpo2004]

3 hours ago, Lawrence Owen said:

Agreed.  Grigson gets a LOT of heat from bad drafts/trades/FA's.  But he's had a few really good grabs as well.  Good started 3-4 games ( can't remember exactly right now) last year due to the injury to A.C. and he did VERY well.  Not 'very well for a 7th round pick' but for any rounder.  He had a couple penalties which are atributed to being a rookie, any rookie, but his field play was VERY good for his first game actions in the NFL.  (IMO)

 

The times he's blown it with high round picks are at least equal to if not exceed the times he's found decent starters in the late rounds.  

 

It's great to find decent starters in the late rounds, but the first round you are aiming to get a star player.  And so far the only star he's gotten in the 1st round is Luck and Luck was an obvious pick to nearly everyone.  

 

I can give him credit for that and a few other good moves.  And I'm hoping that Dorsett and Kelly pan out and that we go on and he drafts solid from now on at the top of the draft.  But too many times he's traded gold for magic beans.

 

 

[Smonroe]

9 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

The times he's blown it with high round picks are at least equal to if not exceed the times he's found decent starters in the late rounds.  

 

It's great to find decent starters in the late rounds, but the first round you are aiming to get a star player.  And so far the only star he's gotten in the 1st round is Luck and Luck was an obvious pick to nearly everyone.  

 

I can give him credit for that and a few other good moves.  And I'm hoping that Dorsett and Kelly pan out and that we go on and he drafts solid from now on at the top of the draft.  But too many times he's traded gold for magic beans.

 

 

Not as bad as you think:

12 - Luck, Coby, Allen - all starters

13 - Werner, trade for Vontea, Thornton - 2 starters, one bust

14 - trade for Trent, Mewhort, Moncrief - 2 starters, one bust

15 - Dorsett, Smith, Anderson - 2 starters, Smith remains to be seen

16 - Kelly, Green, Clark - 1 starter, ... others look promising, but it's way to early to make a decision.

 

Grigs hasn't been as bad as some people want to make him out to be.  Not a home run hitter, no doubt.  But I bet It would be interesting to compare his track record in the top 3 rounds to the rest of the GMs in the league.  Top half?

[Valpo2004]

39 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

Not as bad as you think:

12 - Luck, Coby, Allen - all starters

13 - Werner, trade for Vontea, Thornton - 2 starters, one bust

14 - trade for Trent, Mewhort, Moncrief - 2 starters, one bust

15 - Dorsett, Smith, Anderson - 2 starters, Smith remains to be seen

16 - Kelly, Green, Clark - 1 starter, ... others look promising, but it's way to early to make a decision.

 

Grigs hasn't been as bad as some people want to make him out to be.  Not a home run hitter, no doubt.  But I bet It would be interesting to compare his track record in the top 3 rounds to the rest of the GMs in the league.  Top half?

 

You are counting Thornton as a starter despite the fact that this thread is about how he appears to be losing his job?

 

Also it's a question of how good of starters they are.  Thorton is below average, Moncrief is just average with good potential.  Dorsett hasn't proved much and is only a starter by default.  

 

But those 1st round picks in '13 and '14 stand out like a sore thumb and our '15 and obviously '16 1st round picks havn't proven themselves yet.

[CoachLite]

15 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Please tell me that perhaps you were being sarcastic?

 

The Colts were basically the only team to scout him a year ago.    He was plucked from almost complete obscurity.       The rest of the NFL was caught snoozing on him.

 

Good was drafted all of one year ago.     He actually played last year as a rookie.     He actually STARTED last year as a rookie.       He might start this year, in his 2nd season.

 

How much better must we develop his talent before you feel good about that?

 

So,  were you kidding?

 

 

 

Sarcastic. Very sarcastic. My point, Denzelle Good's talents - as either a guard or tackle - seem to be deprecated, either due to his round 7 draft status (the Colts got a real bargain here) or his lack of experience. He is very smart, very strong, very nimble for a guy his size, has quick reaction, and has a great punch. While I like Reitz as an overall OL player, it seems he has a proven problem against a good edge rush, requiring dedicated TE support. Notice there have been a host of recent TE signings?

 

The coaching staff and owner seems to recognize Good's potential - at least by their words. This decision seems to have "Grigson" written all over it - and I thought that maybe - just maybe - he had learned a lesson about micro-managing the OL personnel. Part of development is due to coaching. A bigger part comes from the internal drive of the player to become great. It is easy for high potential players to become demoralized and under-perform. We've seen this by various players not performing well for the Colts, and then going on to be better players for other teams.

 

Who knows, even Bjoern Werner may go on toward a successful career? Football is a sport of attitude and confidence.

[CoachLite]

1 minute ago, CoachLite said:

Sarcastic. Very sarcastic. My point, Denzelle Good's talents - as either a guard or tackle - seem to be deprecated, either due to his round 7 draft status (the Colts got a real bargain here) or his lack of experience. He is very smart, very strong, very nimble for a guy his size, has quick reaction, and has a great punch. While I like Reitz as an overall OL player, it seems he has a proven problem against a good edge rush, requiring dedicated TE support. Notice there have been a host of recent TE signings?

 

The coaching staff and owner seems to recognize Good's potential - at least by their words. This decision seems to have "Grigson" written all over it - and I thought that maybe - just maybe - he had learned a lesson about micro-managing the OL personnel. Part of development is due to coaching. A bigger part comes from the internal drive of the player to become great. It is easy for high potential players to become demoralized and under-perform. We've seen this my various players not performing well for the Colts, and then going on to be better players for other teams.

 

Who knows, even Bjoern Werner may go on toward a successful career? Football is a sport of attitude and confidence.

BTW, great job Colt scouts for finding this diamond in the rough!

[throwing BBZ]

On 8/3/2016 at 3:01 AM, Lawrence Owen said:

http://horseshoeheroes.com/2016/08/02/despite-what-depth-chart-depicts-denzelle-good-looking-like-starting-rg/

 

I've been rooting for Good since he was drafted, (probably like a lot of others because: who don't want to see a 7th round pick play, let alone become a starter?)

But his size/strength, and foot quickness apparently are for real, and he just needs to learn the RG position at the pro level.  The author of the article compares Good to  Leonard Davis and Shawn Andrews.  Mighty big comparisons (figuratively and literaly)

 

I think they are practicing Good because they believe he can/will be thier best player for the position once he gets reps in and some experience.

But Thornton made the starter on the published depth chart because as of right now, he has more experience and is thier "better player" at that position `right now`. (this ofcourse is an assumption based on what i've read)

 

 You don`t get it at all.
  You should be worried how FAT he showed up at for #1.
  And a player Needs to be able to play multiple positions on a Sunday so Guard is the obvious next place for him to train at. They already know he can backup/Start at RT.
  Next you want your best players on the field, so it is time to Have at It! May the best man win.
  If they didn`t prepare him to also be a Guard, who replaces Mewhort if he goes down? Hmmm!
  Come on man!  

[BOTT]

7 hours ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

The times he's blown it with high round picks are at least equal to if not exceed the times he's found decent starters in the late rounds.  

 

It's great to find decent starters in the late rounds, but the first round you are aiming to get a star player.  And so far the only star he's gotten in the 1st round is Luck and Luck was an obvious pick to nearly everyone.  

 

I can give him credit for that and a few other good moves.  And I'm hoping that Dorsett and Kelly pan out and that we go on and he drafts solid from now on at the top of the draft.  But too many times he's traded gold for magic beans.

 

 

Other than Vick Ballard what has Grigson found in the late rounds?

[Valpo2004]

16 hours ago, BOTT said:

Other than Vick Ballard what has Grigson found in the late rounds?

 

Potentially Denzelle Goode and David Parry.  

[BOTT]

7 hours ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

Potentially Denzelle Goode and David Parry.  

I will give you Goode potentially, but really, it's only been Ballard.  Not saying he has to find stars in the late rounds, but at least find some jags.

[aaron11]

On 8/3/2016 at 9:36 PM, Lawrence Owen said:

Sorry to nit-pick, but wasn't he the 2nd to last pick of the draft? Though he probably should have been

grigson said at some point that the plan was to pick him up as an UDFA.   then he got word that some other teams had been scouting him, and RG wanted to make sure he was a colt so they used a late pick on him

[aaron11]

On 8/4/2016 at 6:49 PM, BOTT said:

Other than Vick Ballard what has Grigson found in the late rounds?

well hes gone now but newsome was decent for a fifth rounder

[BOTT]

3 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

well hes gone now but newsome was decent for a fifth rounder

meh. He wasn't even starter material.

[Gavin]

I expect Thornton will be the starter when real bullets are flying however and the safety is off

[BOTT]

13 hours ago, Gavin said:

I expect Thornton will be the starter when real bullets are flying however and the safety is off

I got a 50 cent piece that you are wrong.