Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

[dynasty13]

Keep living in your dream world. He did not provide ALL text between him and the two equipment men. He destroyed his cell phone and then lied about his procedure on the destruction of his cell phones. What I say to you is exactly my comment to AM. "I don't think so" is not a no answer. After all this is not Isis and no one got killed.

 

Texts from Brady would show up on Jastremski and McNally's phones. Wells had all of that. 

 

'I don't think so' may not be a no answer, but it certainly isn't a yes either...and that's what you would have us all believe.

[jvan1973]

Please prove that Brady did not cooperate. He provided EVERYTHING that Wells asked for, and offered to give all of the text information that he had available.

no, no he didn't

[dynasty13]

You guys are really trying to make a trump card out of this Mortensen report. It's immaterial.

Whether the footballs were deflated or not, even if someone purposely did it, if Brady had nothing to do with it, the answer is an easy "NO." It was a softball, right down the middle, and he whiffed. Whoever asked him that question gave him a perfect opportunity to sell his innocence, and he didn't even come close.

He wasn't asked whether he had ever filed an incorrect tax return. "I don't think so" would have made sense then. "Are you a cheater?" is an easy question to answer.

 

And you guys are trying to make a trump card out of one answer at a press conference when there was nothing but incorrect information being reported. Did Brady give a resounding NO? No he did not, but at that point the only information was out there was that 11 of 12 Patriots footballs were 2 pounds under...so if I was Tom Brady I would say 'what the # is going on?'

[Superman]

And you guys are trying to make a trump card out of one answer at a press conference when there was nothing but incorrect information being reported. Did Brady give a resounding NO? No he did not, but at that point the only information was out there was that 11 of 12 Patriots footballs were 2 pounds under...so if I was Tom Brady I would say 'what the # is going on?'

 

Nah, not at all. His entire presser was bad. He was uncomfortable, he contradicted himself, and IMO, looked like he was lying.

 

You're telling me that he was uncomfortable because he was misled by Mortensen's report. "11 out of 12! 11 out of 12!" But really, the easiest question he's ever been asked, by anyone ever, is whether he's a cheater. Whether the footballs were deflated or not, whether someone else had done something or not, he should have crushed that one.

 

Him wondering what's going on is irrelevant. He should know, and be able to answer, in no uncertain terms, whether or not he's a cheater. His answer was less than satisfactory, to say the least. And because the question was so easy, and he still missed by a mile, it undermines this entire 'he was thrown off by Mort' angle.

 

All said, the presser doesn't prove anything. But he certainly didn't convince anyone that he was innocent. Probably just the opposite.

[amfootball]

You guys are really trying to make a trump card out of this Mortensen report. It's immaterial.

Whether the footballs were deflated or not, even if someone purposely did it, if Brady had nothing to do with it, the answer is an easy "NO." It was a softball, right down the middle, and he whiffed. Whoever asked him that question gave him a perfect opportunity to sell his innocence, and he didn't even come close.

He wasn't asked whether he had ever filed an incorrect tax return. "I don't think so" would have made sense then. "Are you a cheater?" is an easy question to answer.

Goodness. Brady did not say yes to the question. I am not sure why you guys keep posting it over and over like he somehow did.

I posted his FULL answer and yet you still harp on that one portion. It was obvious he was not prepared for the conference at all given the story went from the NFL investigating the balls to full blown madness when Mort's report came out. Brady had no answers at that point to that bogus report as he had not instructed anyone to do anything yet this report was out there that the balls were 2lbs under. It is completely understandable that he would be off kilter with the amount of questions coming at him. That presser was the height of ridiculousness for both him and Bill and I am sure if the Pats PR team had to do it over they would have never allowed the Q&A without having Brady better prepared for the onslaught as he was in the midst of trying to get ready for the Super Bowl. 

 

[Superman]

Goodness. Brady did not say yes to the question. I am not sure why you guys keep posting it over and over like he somehow did.

I posted his FULL answer and yet you still harp on that one portion. It was obvious he was not prepared for the conference at all given the story went from the NFL investigating the balls to full blown madness when Mort's report came out. Brady had no answers at that point to that bogus report as he had not instructed anyone to do anything yet this report was out there that the balls were 2lbs under. It is completely understandable that he would be off kilter with the amount of questions coming at him. That presser was the height of ridiculousness for both him and Bill and I am sure if the Pats PR team had to do it over they would have never allowed the Q&A without having Brady better prepared for the onslaught as he was in the midst of trying to get ready for the Super Bowl. 

 

Brady had no answers to the report, fine.

 

Did he have an answer to the question he was asked? "Is Tom Brady a cheater?" How much prep does that really require? 

 

I'm not pretending he said yes. You're pretending that it was hard to just say no. "Are you a cheater?" "No, not at all." Everything else is irrelevant. He could have just said no. The fact that he didn't -- again, the easiest question he was asked -- doesn't work in his favor.

 

And again, the report doesn't matter. Whether the footballs were all under inflated, shoot, if they were all entirely flat, that doesn't change whether Brady did something or not, whether he was involved or not, whether he was aware or not. 

 

The full answer doesn't really make things any better. He equivocated on the easiest question, one that spoke right to the heart of the matter. "Hehe, I don't believe so." That's a bad answer.

[amfootball]

Brady had no answers to the report, fine.

 

Did he have an answer to the question he was asked? "Is Tom Brady a cheater?" How much prep does that really require? 

 

I'm not pretending he said yes. You're pretending that it was hard to just say no. "Are you a cheater?" "No, not at all." Everything else is irrelevant. He could have just said no. The fact that he didn't -- again, the easiest question he was asked -- doesn't work in his favor.

 

And again, the report doesn't matter. Whether the footballs were all under inflated, shoot, if they were all entirely flat, that doesn't change whether Brady did something or not, whether he was involved or not, whether he was aware or not. 

 

The full answer doesn't really make things any better. He equivocated on the easiest question, one that spoke right to the heart of the matter. "Hehe, I don't believe so." That's a bad answer.

You are guys are unbelievable. He said no, but it was not emphatic enough for you because you can continue to ignore the rest of his answer nor given any wiggle room that he was under prepared and had Mort's report swirling. If you want to continue to harp that he should have been more emphatic with the first part of this his response than that is fine. But since that presser and since more facts have come out he has completely and totally denied any involvement from himself and anyone in the Pats organization. And is currently taking the league to court over it.

[amfootball]

BIG News - Judge Berman orders NFL-NFLPA to not file documents under seal, http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/04/judge-berman-orders-nfl-nflpa-to-not-file-documents-under-seal/

 

Brady's appeal will become public. Brew some coffee. This will be a delicious read.

 

Also, many are surmising that this order by the judge is to nudge the NFL to settle as they did not want these records public.

[crazycolt1]

Texts from Brady would show up on Jastremski and McNally's phones. Wells had all of that. 

 

'I don't think so' may not be a no answer, but it certainly isn't a yes either...and that's what you would have us all believe.

"I don't know" means you are not sure. So that comment alone means he knew there was something. Don't play anyone a fool. If you draw any thing but that I have some real cheap ocean front property I will sell real cheap here in Indiana. You interested?

[Superman]

You are guys are unbelievable. He said no, but it was not emphatic enough for you because you can continue to ignore the rest of his answer nor given any wiggle room that he was under prepared and had Mort's report swirling. If you want to continue to harp that he should have been more emphatic with the first part of this his response than that is fine. But since that presser and since more facts have come out he has completely and totally denied any involvement from himself and anyone in the Pats organization. And is currently taking the league to court over it.

 

He didn't say no. Try again.

[crazycolt1]

BIG News - Judge Berman orders NFL-NFLPA to not file documents under seal, http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/04/judge-berman-orders-nfl-nflpa-to-not-file-documents-under-seal/

 

Brady's appeal will become public. Brew some coffee. This will be a delicious read.

 

Also, many are surmising that this order by the judge is to nudge the NFL to settle as they did not want these records public.

Surmising? You are pretty good at that.

[amfootball]

I am trying to find out when appeal transcript will be made public. I think it will be before Aug 12 ... not sure but searching.

[Superman]

BIG News - Judge Berman orders NFL-NFLPA to not file documents under seal, http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/04/judge-berman-orders-nfl-nflpa-to-not-file-documents-under-seal/

 

Brady's appeal will become public. Brew some coffee. This will be a delicious read.

 

Also, many are surmising that this order by the judge is to nudge the NFL to settle as they did not want these records public.

 

The NFLPA is the party that filed the transcripts under seal, yet you think it's the NFL that wants them kept private... ?

 

Also, the NFLPA used arguments that were presented in the Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson cases in their appeal. Arguments that the NFLPA asked to have sealed in both of those cases. 

 

Perhaps both parties want these transcripts kept private. But so far, it's been the NFLPA taking the actions to try to keep them that way. Yet you somehow put it on the NFL. 

[shakedownstreet]

total snore 

[amfootball]

The NFLPA is the party that filed the transcripts under seal, yet you think it's the NFL that wants them kept private... ?

 

Also, the NFLPA used arguments that were presented in the Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson cases in their appeal. Arguments that the NFLPA asked to have sealed in both of those cases. 

 

Perhaps both parties want these transcripts kept private. But so far, it's been the NFLPA taking the actions to try to keep them that way. Yet you somehow put it on the NFL. 

I don't believe the NFL wants the world to see what a sham the appeal was either. I believe this is now a game of chicken for both sides. This judge is serious about a settlement. I love it.

[Superman]

I don't believe the NFL wants the world to see what a sham the appeal was either. I believe this is now a game of chicken for both sides. This judge is serious about a settlement. I love it.

 

That's rich.

[BlueCollarColts]

The NFL has been willing to settle. The NFLPA doesn't want to. 

[amfootball]

The NFLPA is the party that filed the transcripts under seal, yet you think it's the NFL that wants them kept private... ?

 

Also, the NFLPA used arguments that were presented in the Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson cases in their appeal. Arguments that the NFLPA asked to have sealed in both of those cases. 

 

Perhaps both parties want these transcripts kept private. But so far, it's been the NFLPA taking the actions to try to keep them that way. Yet you somehow put it on the NFL. 

BTW, everything I am reading is saying NFL did NOT want appeal public.

[Superman]

BTW, everything I am reading is saying NFL did NOT want appeal public.

 

But the NFLPA did, right? Brady did, right?

 

Yet, the NFLPA filed the appeal transcripts under seal. 

[amfootball]

But the NFLPA did, right? Brady did, right?

 

Yet, the NFLPA filed the appeal transcripts under seal. 

From what I am reading the NFL asked the PA to have them under seal. I don't have reliable links yet. I will post when I do. But if you do a twitter search you will see everyone saying this order is bad for the NFL.

[Superman]

From what I am reading the NFL asked the PA to have them under seal. I don't have reliable links yet. I will post when I do. But if you do a twitter search you will see everyone saying this order is bad for the NFL.

 

Yeah, Twitter knows what's up...

[BlueCollarColts]

Cmon guys, Twitter is a great source....... 

[amfootball]

Yeah, Twitter knows what's up...

Not tweets but links to actual stories. That is what I use it for anyways. That is why I am waiting to post. Have not seen a lot of reliable sources yet.

 

Suffice to say that this order should force a settlement. Although that being said, both sides had to know going into this that the appeal could be made public so we will see if this makes either side flinch.

[Yehoodi]

But the NFLPA did, right? Brady did, right?

 

Yet, the NFLPA filed the appeal transcripts under seal. 

 

Just heard on the radio that the Judge is making the appeal transcript public.  NFLPA just refiled its petition with a transcript.   It is supposedly 457 or pages long.  The plot thickens.   

[amfootball]

Just heard on the radio that the Judge is making the appeal transcript public.  NFLPA just refiled its petition with a transcript.   It is supposedly 457 or pages long.  The plot thickens.   

Yes, I just read that the PA filed with the transcript. Also, Brady testified under oath I believe for just this reason.

 

Then there is this tweet from McCann

 

Michael McCann ‏@McCannSportsLaw 2m2 minutes ago

I can't imagine NFL owners are thrilled judge is making records from Brady's appeal before Goodell public. Deflategate is never going away.

[jvan1973]

BIG News - Judge Berman orders NFL-NFLPA to not file documents under seal, http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/04/judge-berman-orders-nfl-nflpa-to-not-file-documents-under-seal/

Brady's appeal will become public. Brew some coffee. This will be a delicious read.

Also, many are surmising that this order by the judge is to nudge the NFL to settle as they did not want these records public.

How is this big news? Also, can I get a link to where the league didn't want it *, but the PA did?

[Narcosys]

Of course that is a sound byte to the answer. Cherry picked by many. Here is the full answer:

 

"I don't believe so," he replied. "I feel like I've always played within the rules. I would never do anything to break the rules. I believe in fair play." 

 

 

 

It is still a non-answer.  He says FEELS, he has played within the rules.  And technically he WASNT the one who physically altered the balls.  So not a lie,  but not a real answer.

[OffensivelyPC]

From what I am reading the NFL asked the PA to have them under seal. I don't have reliable links yet. I will post when I do. But if you do a twitter search you will see everyone saying this order is bad for the NFL.

that's like asking the plaintiff to raise a motion to dismiss for the defendant. It does not happen in the real world. Besides, with all the NFLPA's going all whambulance everytime the NFL does something, you couldn't possibly thing the NFLPA would oblige the NFL.

[amfootball]

Transcript has been coming out. Here is the following already ..

 

It includes the following:

• Brady and Goodell discuss inflation ranges
• Wells says the investigation did not press Gostkowski for to produce emails or texts
• Troy Vincent acknowledges players do not receive the Game Day Operations Manual (and was never given a Manual as a player)
• Brady says was never told by Wells he could be disciplined for not turning over texts or emails
• And, Wells himself said the same: "I did not tell Mr. Brady at any time that he would be subject to punishment for not turning over the documents. I did not say anything like that."

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25259645/legal-documents-reveal-transcript-of-tom-bradys-appeal-with-roger-goodell

[amfootball]

Full appeal here, https://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/ex-204-appeal-hearing-transcript-t-brady.pdf

 

Get some coffee - this will be a long read ...

[Superman]

Wells wasn't involved in player discipline. Why should he have told Brady that he could be punished for not turning over information, or for anything, really?

[Yehoodi]

Yes, I just read that the PA filed with the transcript. Also, Brady testified under oath I believe for just this reason.

 

Then there is this tweet from McCann

 

Michael McCann ‏@McCannSportsLaw 2m2 minutes ago

I can't imagine NFL owners are thrilled judge is making records from Brady's appeal before Goodell public. Deflategate is never going away.

 

Yah.  Not sure if I will have time to read it tonight.  I will be excited to see if NFLPA makes the same arguments that I would have made on Brady's behalf.   I was away this weekend till yesterday and did not have the time to lay down my arguments and why have been silent on the matter.   

 

I went over the Wells report in mid June and wanted to state my case but every time I came on the forum the subject was locked. 

 

Bottom line, in June I went over the Wells report and its science and testing and realized that when one looks at the numbers, the correspondence gauges used by the NFL's refs (per the Wells Report), the timing of the measurements, the starting point of the balls, the test run on how the psi increases at halftime (per the Wells Report), and uses the Colts balls as a innocent control group, things are no as rosie and some thing for the NFL. 

 

As for the legality of the particular punishment imposed and the legal authority of the Commissioner per the CMA, I fully support the arguments made in the NFPLA's petition. 

 

I am so so so glad that we see what happened in the Appeal hearing.

 

It is good to air out everything regardless of which side it hurts.

 

As this is a matter of national concern, it is important for all to see what is going on and what is behind any closed door.  

 

Again, I am excited that the transcript was released.

[Dustin]

Transcript indicates that there were three texts between Tom Brady and John Jastremski on February 7 that weren't recovered.

— Albert Breer (@AlbertBreer)

August 4, 2015

[Dustin]

Brady on cross examination: "I never in the history of my career, I never thought about the inflation level of a ball."

— Andrew Brandt (@AndrewBrandt)

August 4, 2015

Brady with a blatant lie here

[amfootball]

From Mort:

 

As I mentioned yesterday during an extensive interview with @LeBatardShow, I made a
mistake in not clarifying, via Twitter, my tweet from months ago regarding the
sourced information I reported about under-inflated footballs. After reflecting upon
yesterday’s conversation, I decided to delete the initial tweet today. It’s a
step I could have taken a while ago, when I had clarified the information on
other platforms. Lesson learned.

 

So let's back up that truck Chris. LOL.

[Yehoodi]

Wells wasn't involved in player discipline. Why should he have told Brady that he could be punished for not turning over information, or for anything, really?

 

Notice.   Plan and simple.   Wells is leading an investigation and is the one that is corresponding with the witnesses and the same are reacting to his direction.   Also, he is the last time in which the NFL can covey to Brady that withholding the cell phone will result in anything worst or different than what has happened in the past by other players.

 

If an action A results in punishment X

 

And person H does not tell person K that action A can result in a punishment Y, then . . .

 

person K can not be given punishment Y.

 

Surely it is not person H's responsibility one way or the other, but it does remove the opportunity for the folks who want to impose punishment Y when they have never don't if before.   If you have not done it and person H does not say it, then you can not imposed it.  Plain and simple.  

[Yehoodi]

Brady on cross examination: "I never in the history of my career, I never thought about the inflation level of a ball."

— Andrew Brandt (@AndrewBrandt)

August 4, 2015

Brady with a blatant lie here

 

He can't lie he is under oath.  Hello.  That why we have oaths.

 

Brady on cross examination: "I never in the history of my career, I never thought about the inflation level of a ball."

 

case closed.  .

[-JJ-]

I believe I have spoken to the fumble numbers, as I was surprised that the fumble rates at home (where they have allegedly been fooling with the balls to make it easier to hold on to) were higher than the fumble rates away. I obviously can't speak in absolutes because I don't know the answers...but I noticed something about the numbers as it pertains to the quarterbacks. Each year, quarterbacks are the ones who have the most fumbles on their team, which isn't surprising since they touch the ball on every play...so lets examine those numbers a bit because the quarterback's fumbles essentially determine the team's fumble ranking as a whole.

 

I'm just going to compare New England and Indianapolis for now, because lets face it, that's more interesting to everyone and is actually pretty telling all in themselves. From 2007 to 2010, the Patriots ranked 1st, 4th, 4th, and 1st in fumbles...while the Colts ranked 2nd, 2nd, 1st, and 4th...and a big part of the reason is because both Tom Brady and Peyton Manning rarely fumbled the ball. Neither one had more than 7 fumbles per season during that time...not bad for guys that were often referred to as the two best in the game.

 

Lets skip to the Andrew Luck era. From 2012 to 2014, the Patriots ranked 5th, 24th, and 2nd...while the Colts ranked 14th, 4th, and 31st. Why is that interesting? Well, in Luck's rookie year when the Colts were ranked 14th, Andrew Luck himself fumbled the ball 11 times. Not surprising, he was a rookie. The following year when the Colts ranked 4th, Andrew Luck himself only fumbled the ball 6 times. Quite an improvement and the team ranking reflected that. But in 2014 when the Colts ranked 31st, Andrew Luck himself fumbled the ball 13 times. You starting to see the pattern here? The fumble rates can be directly attributed to the number of fumbles by the quarterback himself.

 

Now lets look at Brady over the same period. In 2012, Brady didn't fumble, and the team ranked in the top 5 as a result. The one anomaly for the team was in 2013 when the Patriots ranked 24th. Guess how many fumbles Tom Brady himself had? 10. In 2014, Brady himself only fumbled 6 times, and the team ranked 2nd. 

 

So here's what it comes down to. The number of times the quarterback fumbles greatly determines the team fumble rates. The Patriots and Colts were right there with each other statistically when Brady and Manning were the quarterbacks. When Luck took over, the rankings started to fluctuate based on his play. Not really all that surprising since you guys for years have been talking about how the Patriots had great O-line and protected Brady better than anyone. So if in the end it really is all about the quarterback fumbling the ball, don't you have to take into account other factors such as protection etc?

If I can sneak in between the transcript posts .    That's interesting. I didn't realize QBs had that much effect or even any.

 

 There is one more stat for NE low fumbles...Belichick. fumble twice and you sit out for many games.    Turnovers is his number one priority which kind of surprised me as some don't have much effect. I guess it's the ones that do and can turn a game around that gives him the almost zero tolerance.

[Yehoodi]

Transcript indicates that there were three texts between Tom Brady and John Jastremski on February 7 that weren't recovered.

— Albert Breer (@AlbertBreer)

August 4, 2015

 

Is it Brady's fault that his phone broke?   .   .  Things can happen at just the wrong time.  

 

Also one would think that this text would be on Jag's phone.

 

Will be interesting to see if the court pushes to get the phone companies to track down the texts.  I tend to believe those folks that say the texts can be tracked down.  

[Yehoodi]

I believe I have spoken to the fumble numbers, as I was surprised that the fumble rates at home (where they have allegedly been fooling with the balls to make it easier to hold on to) were higher than the fumble rates away. I obviously can't speak in absolutes because I don't know the answers...but I noticed something about the numbers as it pertains to the quarterbacks. Each year, quarterbacks are the ones who have the most fumbles on their team, which isn't surprising since they touch the ball on every play...so lets examine those numbers a bit because the quarterback's fumbles essentially determine the team's fumble ranking as a whole.

 

I'm just going to compare New England and Indianapolis for now, because lets face it, that's more interesting to everyone and is actually pretty telling all in themselves. From 2007 to 2010, the Patriots ranked 1st, 4th, 4th, and 1st in fumbles...while the Colts ranked 2nd, 2nd, 1st, and 4th...and a big part of the reason is because both Tom Brady and Peyton Manning rarely fumbled the ball. Neither one had more than 7 fumbles per season during that time...not bad for guys that were often referred to as the two best in the game.

 

Lets skip to the Andrew Luck era. From 2012 to 2014, the Patriots ranked 5th, 24th, and 2nd...while the Colts ranked 14th, 4th, and 31st. Why is that interesting? Well, in Luck's rookie year when the Colts were ranked 14th, Andrew Luck himself fumbled the ball 11 times. Not surprising, he was a rookie. The following year when the Colts ranked 4th, Andrew Luck himself only fumbled the ball 6 times. Quite an improvement and the team ranking reflected that. But in 2014 when the Colts ranked 31st, Andrew Luck himself fumbled the ball 13 times. You starting to see the pattern here? The fumble rates can be directly attributed to the number of fumbles by the quarterback himself.

 

Now lets look at Brady over the same period. In 2012, Brady didn't fumble, and the team ranked in the top 5 as a result. The one anomaly for the team was in 2013 when the Patriots ranked 24th. Guess how many fumbles Tom Brady himself had? 10. In 2014, Brady himself only fumbled 6 times, and the team ranked 2nd. 

 

So here's what it comes down to. The number of times the quarterback fumbles greatly determines the team fumble rates. The Patriots and Colts were right there with each other statistically when Brady and Manning were the quarterbacks. When Luck took over, the rankings started to fluctuate based on his play. Not really all that surprising since you guys for years have been talking about how the Patriots had great O-line and protected Brady better than anyone. So if in the end it really is all about the quarterback fumbling the ball, don't you have to take into account other factors such as protection etc?

 

Bingo.

 

The one thing colts fans don't want to admit or just want to quote from websites that only show the pats fan fumbles in relation to the league, is what you said.  In the Brady/Manning eras, the colts/pats are basically 1/2 in the league and indeed league history when it comes to stretches where the teams did not fumble.

 

So the fumble rate due to any hanky panky on the pats is no more or less innocent than the colts during the Manning era.  For me, its has as much to do with how the balls are preps and what is allowed to be done to the surfaces per game as anything else.  Also, one adds in what BB does, one can understand the low fumble.

 

Also, in the end, this is will bored out as time goes on.