Deflategate merge -- pending appeal results

[DougDew]

Here's a really good link on the evolution of the NFL rulebook. As you will see, there are numerous examples of rules that were enacted to close loopholes that teams found. So again - spare me the sanctimony over the tactics Belichick employed vs Baltimore....it's nothing new.

 

http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/evolution-of-the-nfl-rules/

because the NFL decides to not prosecute rules violators and rewrites the rules to make them more clearly delineate the rules to the people who already knew them to begin with...does not mean they did not violate the rule in the first place.

[Bad Morty]

You're assuming other coaches would do it. Why do you assume they didn't think of it and discard it..because you believe that nonsnes about BB being a genius? c'mon.

If you follow, I did not suggest anybody violated a code of honor. They violated the rules. They understood the inherent problem, helped to create the rule to prevent the problem, approved of how it was written. The only thing they did not violate was the simplistic interpretation of how it was written. That's still a violation.

Look at it this way, if you and me were in a position to create hiway speed limits, understand the problem speeding causes, decide to erect signs to communicate the law, and decide that the speed limit is 55, but when we get to the posted sign, the sign says 65, ..did we violate the law if we travel 63?

Yes, we did..because we decided what the law was and knew what it was despite what the sign says.

No I'm pretty sure that if the sign says "Speed Limit 65", no court is ever going to find me in violation of the law if I was travelling 63. That's a terrible analogy. You have no basis whatsoever for claiming that the rule was written in error, as a 65 MPH sign would have been a mistake. Perhaps you missed this:

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24954397/nfl-patriots-ran-legal-formations-vs-ravens

 

In an email to the Baltimore Sun on Sunday, NFL vice president of football communications Michael Signora said everything the Patriots did was within the rule book.

"Everything was legal from a formation and reporting standpoint," Signora wrote.

[Bad Morty]

because the NFL decides to not prosecute rules violators and rewrites the rules to make them more clearly delineate the rules to the people who already knew them to begin with...does not mean they did not violate the rule in the first place.

lol...actually that's precicely what it means. In the utopia you are describing, we shouldn't need written rules at all...teams all know what they are and should just...you know...follow them.

[Gramz]

can hardly wait until week the matchup this year.

 I should proofread better.

 

what I meant was I can hardly wait until  the week 6 matchup this year.  

 

We should call out the National Guard for the Forum that week  

[Bad Morty]

 I should proofread better.

 

what I meant was I can hardly wait until  the week 6 matchup this year.  

 

We should call out the National Guard for the Forum that week  

I knew what you meant!

[DougDew]

No I'm pretty sure that if the sign says "Speed Limit 65", no court is ever going to find me in violation of the law if I was travelling 63. That's a terrible analogy. You have no basis whatsoever for claiming that the rule was written in error, as a 65 MPH sign would have been a mistake. Perhaps you missed this:

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24954397/nfl-patriots-ran-legal-formations-vs-ravens

 

In an email to the Baltimore Sun on Sunday, NFL vice president of football communications Michael Signora said everything the Patriots did was within the rule book.

"Everything was legal from a formation and reporting standpoint," Signora wrote.

Yes, a court would. If they knew you knew the speed limit was 55, which they do know because you wrote it, they would convict you in a heartbeat because you knew what the limit was despite what the sign says. You would just try to weasel out of it claiming that you didn't know the speed limit was 55 because the sign said 65. But you did, that's the difference.

Now, if some high school football coach reads the rule for the first time, he could legitimately think it says what BB is claiming it says, but that's because the high school coach DIDN'T HELP WRITE THE RULE BOOK.

Were not talking about violating a law, we're talking about one of 32 coaches violating an agreement they all made in good faith to not surprise defenses with last minute adjustments the refs don't take time to sort out. Yes, the other 31 coaches can punish him under their rules of punishment for violating that agreement, despite how it got translated into the written document. BB would run to the courts for protection, (which is the prism people are looking though to judge this) using that poorly written rule as defense, when the owners would justifiably be simply trying to enforce what they all agreed to not do.

BBs no genius, he's a chump.

And thanks for brining up the link, which leads to BBs second double cross of his collegues that I haven't gotten to yet: Taking advantage of the fact that they all agree to not have the refs take 20 seconds to notify they defense. They all agree to take 5 seconds, because its in the interest of the enhancing the NFL game and their product to not slow the action. So he exploits the process that is put there to benefit EVERYBODY, not a rule, that the refs won't slow down the game to sort out eligibility.

There is no rule governing how long the refs can take to sort things out, all 32 teams just shake hands and agree to encourage the refs to take less than 5 seconds to "report" who's eligible, because the fans, owners, AND THE COACHES, want the game to move along..

Exploiting that agreed upon process amongst your colleagues is not an indication of BBs genius, its evidence of chumpness.

[NewColtsFan]

Since my Patriot friends continue to link every story concerning Deflategate, then I'm going to continue to poke holes in it....

 

This latest report disproves nothing.     It only shows that another scenario, or a different interpretation is possible.    And that's fine.

 

The Wells Report is NOT only the testing of the footballs.    The Wells report also includes Brady's behavior,  his lack of cooperation,  and the lack of cooperation of the Patriots organization.    The AEI report does not touch upon that aspect of the Wells report.

 

So,  if all there was to Brady's guilt or innocence was the air pressure testing, then maybe -- MAYBE -- the Patriots would have a case.     But that's not the situation.    The Patriots lack of cooperation tilts the scales of justice against them.   Not giving up the phone info is damning.    Not allowing another interview with the equipment guys is damning.    Kraft's repeated use of the term "conclusive proof" when he knew full-well that's not the official standard used by league -- "preponderance of the evidence" is the standard....   Kraft deliberately poisoning the waters is damning for his organization.    The rest of the league owners turning against Kraft is damning.

 

Sorry Patriots fans.....    you can spit or pee into the wind all you want,  but that liquid coming back at you is not rain...   and never has been.....     you're only kidding yourselves....

[dw49]

Since my Patriot friends continue to link every story concerning Deflategate, then I'm going to continue to poke holes in it....

 

This latest report disproves nothing.     It only shows that another scenario, or a different interpretation is possible.    And that's fine.

 

The Wells Report is NOT only the testing of the footballs.    The Wells report also includes Brady's behavior,  his lack of cooperation,  and the lack of cooperation of the Patriots organization.    The AEI report does not touch upon that aspect of the Wells report.

 

So,  if all there was to Brady's guilt or innocence was the air pressure testing, then maybe -- MAYBE -- the Patriots would have a case.     But that's not the situation.    The Patriots lack of cooperation tilts the scales of justice against them.   Not giving up the phone info is damning.    Not allowing another interview with the equipment guys is damning.    Kraft's repeated use of the term "conclusive proof" when he knew full-well that's not the official standard used by league -- "preponderance of the evidence" is the standard....   Kraft deliberately poisoning the waters is damning for his organization.    The rest of the league owners turning against Kraft is damning.

 

Sorry Patriots fans.....    you can spit or pee into the wind all you want,  but that liquid coming back at you is not rain...   and never has been.....     you're only kidding yourselves....

 

 

And the Pat fans answer that by saying "there is no eye witness to Brady directing the footballs to be stabbed." So therefore .. he's innocent.

[NewColtsFan]

And the Pat fans answer that by saying "there is no eye witness to Brady directing the footballs to be stabbed." So therefore .. he's innocent.

 

Yup.....

 

And my response to that would be that there is likely damning evidence in the texts of his cell phone which is why he won't give up the transcripts between him and the equipment guys.....

[dynasty13]

This latest report disproves nothing. It only shows that another scenario, or a different interpretation is possible. And that's fine.

Interesting. The fact that it shows that another scenario or interpretation IS possible is exactly what Patriots fans have been saying since the beginning! If there is another possibility or explanation, then that shows that the Wells Report DIDNT prove anything. Wen something is proven, other possibilities don't exist.

[NewColtsFan]

Interesting. The fact that it shows that another scenario or interpretation IS possible is exactly what Patriots fans have been saying since the beginning! If there is another possibility or explanation, then that shows that the Wells Report DIDNT prove anything. Wen something is proven, other possibilities don't exist.

 

Well....   you're certainly selective in what proves and what disproves things....

 

Because I had a nice long post which you conveniently left the rest out.     You know,  the part of the post that tended to show how guilty the Pats were by their actions.     And those actions when combined with the Wells Report view of the inflation mess, tends to make you folks look as guilty as sin.

[dynasty13]

Well.... you're certainly selective in what proves and what disproves things....

Because I had a nice long post which you conveniently left the rest out. You know, the part of the post that tended to show how guilty the Pats were by their actions. And those actions when combined with the Wells Report view of the inflation mess, tends to make you folks look as guilty as sin.

And I don't disagree...but looking guilty is not the same as being guilty. Look, the Patriots did themselves no favors in the way they handled this whole thing...but the fact remains that as long as there ARE other possibilities or explanations, that alone shows that something hasn't been proven.

The science in the Wells Report has always been questionable, and sometimes the easiest explanation isn't necessarily the right one. The court of public opinion already ruled the day after the AFC Championship game, but all we've been saying is that the NFL better be darn sure of something if they are going to hand out this severe of a punishment.

[amfootball]

I try to avoid long posts but sometimes.....

There is an inherent problem in football where if every player was eligible, the defense may have to cover a center and leave a WR open. To compensate, the owners agree to a numbering system that implies eligible and ineligible positions but adjusts that for certain alignments. In writing the rule to balance play between the O and the D, the owners realize that there is a large combinations of numbers and alignments that could change after each play. They can't possibly write every conceivable combination an offense might run into a written rule, so they simplify how the rule is written, but all know full well the problem the rule is trying to prevent. Its trying to prevent offenses from surprising defenses about who is eligible.

Kraft participates in the rulemaking. He is one of 32 owners. Both he and BB know full well the purpose of the rule. In rulemaking discussions, they agree with the other 31 owners that surprising a defense is wrong. They APPROVE OF THE WAY THE RULE WAS WRITTEN and that its intent is to prevent offenses from surprising defenses about who is eligible. But then, at the most critical time of the most critical game to date, they exploit the simplicity of the agreed upon written rule to have their offense surprise the defense about who is eligible.

See the double-cross? It doesn't really take an intelligent person to do that ploy. It takes a person of extremely low integrity to do it. Double-crossers are what they are, and most business groups don't tolerate one in their ranks and usually kick them out in short order.

Two important things here:

 

1) As much as you want to believe Bill is the evil genius and that he invented football, the eligible/ineligible players have been run before both in the NFL and in college. Alabama did almost the exact play just last season. But as I said in my last post to you, the formation only became an issue with the league when the Pats did it and did it with success in a big game and of course Harbaugh whined about it.

 

2) The competition committee did not outlaw the ineligible/eligible plays. All they did was modify the look of the formation so the ineligible/eligible player is closer to the last player on the line. He has to be within three yards instead of out in the slot. So the Pats or any team can still run those plays just with that small modification.

 

The rest of your post is just non-sense IMO. Rules can be interpreted many different ways and to suggest all the owners and coaches are in agreement on this is silly. There is no such thing as violating a spirit of a rule. It is either legal or illegal and that play was legal last year. And will still be legal this year with a slight modification.

[Bad Morty]

Since my Patriot friends continue to link every story concerning Deflategate, then I'm going to continue to poke holes in it....

 

This latest report disproves nothing.     It only shows that another scenario, or a different interpretation is possible.    And that's fine.

 

The Wells Report is NOT only the testing of the footballs.    The Wells report also includes Brady's behavior,  his lack of cooperation,  and the lack of cooperation of the Patriots organization.    The AEI report does not touch upon that aspect of the Wells report.

 

So,  if all there was to Brady's guilt or innocence was the air pressure testing, then maybe -- MAYBE -- the Patriots would have a case.     But that's not the situation.    The Patriots lack of cooperation tilts the scales of justice against them.   Not giving up the phone info is damning.    Not allowing another interview with the equipment guys is damning.    Kraft's repeated use of the term "conclusive proof" when he knew full-well that's not the official standard used by league -- "preponderance of the evidence" is the standard....   Kraft deliberately poisoning the waters is damning for his organization.    The rest of the league owners turning against Kraft is damning.

 

Sorry Patriots fans.....    you can spit or pee into the wind all you want,  but that liquid coming back at you is not rain...   and never has been.....     you're only kidding yourselves....

 

If the science shows that the balls behaved as they would be expected to behave given the conditions, then it doesn't matter what text messages were sent. You may think I committed murder because there is a victim that can't be found and because I sent a text message to my friend calling myself "the murderer"...but when the supposed victim shows up alive and well at a bar the next day, then my texts don't really matter much. That's what's happening here. The new report flat out tells you that the science data that was found from measuring the balls at half time suggests strongly that the balls simply deflated as they should have in the conditions. Wells' conculsion to the contrary is flawed.

[Bad Morty]

Yup.....

 

And my response to that would be that there is likely damning evidence in the texts of his cell phone which is why he won't give up the transcripts between him and the equipment guys.....

you are aware they read all his texts to the equipment guys on the equipment guys phones, right?

[jvan1973]

you are aware they read all his texts to the equipment guys on the equipment guys phones, right?

not all of the deleted texts were able to be retrieved

[Bad Morty]

not all of the deleted texts were able to be retrieved

Really? I hadn't heard that anywhere, but ok...so the logical presumption then is that there is a text from Brady to one of those guys saying "Dudes - I want you to make sure you take the game balls after the refs have checked them and deflate them below the legal limit"?

 

Lol.

[pgt_rob]

All of this doesn't matter. Punishment has been commenced. Kraft owned up to it without a fight. Moving on.

[dw49]

If the science shows that the balls behaved as they would be expected to behave given the conditions, then it doesn't matter what text messages were sent. You may think I committed murder because there is a victim that can't be found and because I sent a text message to my friend calling myself "the murderer"...but when the supposed victim shows up alive and well at a bar the next day, then my texts don't really matter much. That's what's happening here. The new report flat out tells you that the science data that was found from measuring the balls at half time suggests strongly that the balls simply deflated as they should have in the conditions. Wells' conculsion to the contrary is flawed.

 

 

You are kidding ... or are you just delusional ? It would be more like they found that person dead at the bottom of a cliff . The new evidence shows that it was very slippery where the person fell or was pushed off. So now you have to add that factor to the circumstantial evidence you had. It would not "prove " innocence as you are stating.

[Shane Bond]

Locking of this thread is looming.

[Bad Morty]

Locking of this thread is looming.

That typically happens when Colts fans start losing the argument I've found.

[Bad Morty]

You are kidding ... or are you just delusional ? It would be more like they found that person dead at the bottom of a cliff . The new evidence shows that it was very slippery where the person fell or was pushed off. So now you have to add that factor to the circumstantial evidence you had. It would not "prove " innocence as you are stating.

If you came into the discussion with the "Pats are guilty no matter what the evidence says!" mentality, then yes. But the science in the Wells report itself wasn't very strong to begin with. It started weak, and has been shown by AEI (and others in the scientific community) to not just be weak, but flat out wrong. The balls measured as would be expected given the conditions.

[Swan Ronson]

There are no winners in this ridiculous circular argument.

[Gramz]

There are no winners in this ridiculous circular argument.

There never are.

[dw49]

If you came into the discussion with the "Pats are guilty no matter what the evidence says!" mentality, then yes. But the science in the Wells report itself wasn't very strong to begin with. It started weak, and has been shown by AEI (and others in the scientific community) to not just be weak, but flat out wrong. The balls measured as would be expected given the conditions.

 

 

I can appreciate that but you still have to look at everything in the whole picture .. from start to end. I don't believe it proves anything. Question... they state that there is 10 minutes between testing the NE balls to the Indy balls. I would think that is false to at least a degree. Did they start the process immediately ? When did they decide to stop testing. What were the differences in pressure of .. say the last 2 NE balls tested and the first 2 Colts balls tested ? If different then they would be wrong..

[pgt_rob]

That typically happens when Colts fans start losing the argument I've found.

 

No. It's what happens to threads that get out of control and start to go against board rules. This is most likely heading there.

[amfootball]

As I said when this thread was started, I don't think this AEI report really matters in the grand scheme. It is good for Brady to have a little more ammo going into his appeal but really AEI has not said anything that others have not already said in terms of the Wells report being unreliable. We will see what Roger does next week ...

[Bad Morty]

I can appreciate that but you still have to look at everything in the whole picture .. from start to end. I don't believe it proves anything. Question... they state that there is 10 minutes between testing the NE balls to the Indy balls. I would think that is false to at least a degree. Did they start the process immediately ? When did they decide to stop testing. What were the differences in pressure of .. say the last 2 NE balls tested and the first 2 Colts balls tested ? If different then they would be wrong..

I've given FAR too much thought to this, but I think if I had to make a call on what happened, it is probably that McNally took the balls into the bathroom and quickly pinned them. So at the end of the day, I think the Patriots should have received some punishment for that. However, the very small amount of time he had in the bathroom combined with ball measurements that don't really indicate that the balls were de-pressurized by any material amount (if at all) really has to be considered a mitigating circumstance when the talk turns to severity of punishment and legacy. The story was originally floated that all of the Pats balls were 2 lbs under the limit and that they were so flat that a Colts linebacker was able to tell that the balls had been deflated. That's why this story will never go away. The reality is that either nothing at all happened OR that something truly insignificant happened...something that warrants a penalty for sure, but nothing close to the penalty that was handed out. And there is ZERO evidence whatsoever to suggest that Brady ordered anyone to do anything illegal.  

[Gramz]

And there is ZERO evidence whatsoever to suggest that Brady ordered anyone to do anything illegal.

Also zero evidence of common sense.

[Bad Morty]

Also zero evidence of common sense.

it is MORE in line with common sense to think that Brady never said one explicit word to those guys instructing them to deflate footballs after the refs had checked them.

[Gramz]

it is MORE in line with common sense to think that Brady never said one explicit word to those guys instructing them to deflate footballs after the refs had checked them.

Also in line with common sense that he wouldn't have to instruct them each and every time, they knew the process.

See...it works that way too.

[Bad Morty]

Also in line with common sense that he wouldn't have to instruct them each and every time, they knew the process.

See...it works that way too.

But that is a completely un-provable theory. We're now getting into deep minutiae on what is looking more and more like an insignificant situation. The absolute worst case scenario here now is that an amount of air might have been taken out of some footballs that wasn't significant enough to yield measurements at half-time that made it clear that anything at all happened. That's the worst case scenario.

[Gramz]

But that is a completely un-provable theory. We're now getting into deep minutiae on what is looking more and more like an insignificant situation. The absolute worst case scenario here now is that an amount of air might have been taken out of some footballs that wasn't significant enough to yield measurements at half-time that made it clear that anything at all happened. That's the worst case scenario.

why do I bother to even try??

I'll stick to my own common sense from now on.

[amfootball]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13089148

 

Pretty good synopsis here form Sal Pal on how Brady and his team will approach this appeal. They will attack the Wells report AND also the discipline handed out given the NFL rules book says the fine is but not limited to $25 k for a TEAM. The league will be fining Brady upwards of $1.8 mil if he misses 4 games as that is his salary.

 

Also of note, Brady is seeking complete exoneration here not a reduction. If he does not get it from the league, court is likely.

[Swan Ronson]

And here we go again.

[NewColtsFan]

If the science shows that the balls behaved as they would be expected to behave given the conditions, then it doesn't matter what text messages were sent. You may think I committed murder because there is a victim that can't be found and because I sent a text message to my friend calling myself "the murderer"...but when the supposed victim shows up alive and well at a bar the next day, then my texts don't really matter much. That's what's happening here. The new report flat out tells you that the science data that was found from measuring the balls at half time suggests strongly that the balls simply deflated as they should have in the conditions. Wells' conculsion to the contrary is flawed.

 

If the texts and the employees could verify what happened,  wouldn't you think Brady and the Patriots would gladly, happily turn over information and allow more interviews to clarify any inconsistencies.    Any logical person would think that.

 

The NFL expects 100 percent cooperation.    The Patriots promised 100 percent cooperation.    But the Patriots didn't deliver that and worked hard to make sure that didn't happen.     To the NFL,  that spells guilty.     And to most impartial viewers of this silliness as well.

[NewColtsFan]

If the science shows that the balls behaved as they would be expected to behave given the conditions, then it doesn't matter what text messages were sent. You may think I committed murder because there is a victim that can't be found and because I sent a text message to my friend calling myself "the murderer"...but when the supposed victim shows up alive and well at a bar the next day, then my texts don't really matter much. That's what's happening here. The new report flat out tells you that the science data that was found from measuring the balls at half time suggests strongly that the balls simply deflated as they should have in the conditions. Wells' conculsion to the contrary is flawed.

 

The science shows this COULD have happened.    It does NOT show that it DID happen.    You and your friends are having a very hard time distinguishing between the two.      COULD happen and DID happen are NOT the same thing.

[Gramz]

Seeking doesn't necessarily mean getting.

Saying you can't prove he deliberately "ordered" them to deflate the footballs is not the same as saying he was not aware of this.

Not limited to, means there is no limit.

Bring on the battle.

[Bones_Jones]

at the end of the day, whether brady did it or not, the punishment is just too harsh.   from 25k to 4 games(1.88mil)?   that's nonsense.

 

this is not even on a footnote if Alex Smith did it. 

 

 

i think we should all move on, and just talk football.  i'm really tired of this. 

[dynasty13]

The science shows this COULD have happened.    It does NOT show that it DID happen.    You and your friends are having a very hard time distinguishing between the two.      COULD happen and DID happen are NOT the same thing.

 

The entire Wells Report is an example of what COULD have happened...yet you are all treating it as saying it DID happen.

 

Again...as long as another explanation is at all possible, that shows that nothing was proven. Like you said...COULD happen and DID happen are NOT the same thing...but somehow you all seem to know?